As a dedicated non-PvPer even I was somewhat surprised to read that they were planning to nerf healing effects in PvP.....
As a dedicated PvPer, I recommend you step in some matches and witness the level of absolute bullshi* DCs can put up... and then, afterwards, try watching one of those premades where there are multiple DCs, specifically formed on purpose, to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-off PuGs and if you've watched those two, finally, try and watch a premade with those multiple DCs, this time combined with a central GWF fully geared upto its teeth, and see the massacre happen.
Sure, with the right application of debuffs, CCs, ganking, you can bring down a DC -- eventually. But then if your team is busy bringing down that ONE DC, imagine what the rest of the enemies are doing.
So, unlike the doomsayers above, I beg to differ. Reality check: low level players hardly, if ever, rely on heals anyway. The most frequent application of all those heals and temp-HPs and shielding and etcs, is with high-level DCs, and the premades these DCs make a living in. Anything that puts a stop to how those people can play a class so carelessly and so mindlessly, and still be able to shrug of so much damage by simply running around in circles, can only make the PvP better, not worse.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
As a dedicated PvPer, I recommend you step in some matches and witness the level of absolute bullshi* DCs can put up... and then, afterwards, try watching one of those premades where there are multiple DCs, specifically formed on purpose, to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-off PuGs and if you've watched those two, finally, try and watch a premade with those multiple DCs, this time combined with a central GWF fully geared upto its teeth, and see the massacre happen.
Sure, with the right application of debuffs, CCs, ganking, you can bring down a DC -- eventually. But then if your team is busy bringing down that ONE DC, imagine what the rest of the enemies are doing.
So, unlike the doomsayers above, I beg to differ. Reality check: low level players hardly, if ever, rely on heals anyway. The most frequent application of all those heals and temp-HPs and shielding and etcs, is with high-level DCs, and the premades these DCs make a living in. Anything that puts a stop to how those people can play a class so carelessly and so mindlessly, and still be able to shrug of so much damage by simply running around in circles, can only make the PvP better, not worse.
So u mean DC really deserve a nerf because we are relying too much on heals?? Don't take the several top guys on the pyramid to judge all pvp DC, although i also heal and buff well in pvp (that not include me)
So u mean DC really deserve a nerf because we are relying too much on heals?? Don't take the several top guys on the pyramid to judge all pvp DC, although i also heal and buff well in pvp (that not include me)
I mean heals and temp-HP shielding (which includes Bloodskull Raven artifactsas well) needs balancing because currently it turns the game <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> by forcing a side to focus crazy amounts of effort against a mere single opponent to be able to neutralize it.
Personally, heal-nerfing isn't my thing as well. I usually prefer specific heal-debuff powers instead. But in this case I'll take what I can get.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
A full team from my guild went on the Test Shard today for a PMvsPM. All Perfects, all Rank 10s. End result: No one died. No one! 1 GF vs 4 enemies and they couldn't kill him. One Astral Shield from our DC and our GF was back to full health. GWFs have close to if not 100% DR from Tenacity, Armor Pen Reduction, and Unstoppable.
They either need to make some major, major changes, or even more of NWs slim player base is going to leave.
What you guys are hearing is the complaints of low GS players against high GS players. brackets would solve this
While bracketing is likely a good idea, bracketing via GS is a bad idea over-all. There are too many cases of GS that does not actually equate with other classes. Rangers for example can get their GS up very fast with lvl 50-60 Blues and no Artifacts they are easily at 12k+, as well there are allot of GFs out there with 20k-22.5k GS when fully geared in Purple 60+ items.
Bracketing would have to be more than just via GS, or some classes would be stuck in the same situation that many have now, while others would be stuck waiting for ever for a match, if they got one at all.
As for the Tenacity Gear, I'm not overly fond of being pigeon-holed into a set of gear to do PvP in this game. I have never been fond of Cookie-Cutter methodology, and have no desire to go gemming up a set of gear I currently never use, just for PvP here. I am curious to see if they can actually keep the PvP changes singularly effecting PvP, and not bleeding over into PvE. As things have long been, a change to one pretty much inevitably effects the other as well. Also, blanket changes are never a good idea, this has been long proven in MMO-MMORPGs, this proverbial *<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" to dial back, and forth with, is applying to an already heavily un-balanced scape. So whether it is turned up, or down, the balance is still skewed, and turning it one way will just make some issues more glaringly obvious, while turning it the other way will do so for others. I think they should work on actual class by class balancing so as to actually even out the playing field some before they go *knobing* things.
Problems with certain items, and, or skills, or feats being used in PvP?... Simple, dis-allow them in PvP.
Some things are meant to remain lost.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
While bracketing is likely a good idea, bracketing via GS is a bad idea over-all. There are too many cases of GS that does not actually equate with other classes. Rangers for example can get their GS up very fast with lvl 50-60 Blues and no Artifacts they are easily at 12k+, as well there are allot of GFs out there with 20k-22.5k GS when fully geared in Purple 60+ items.
Bracketing would have to be more than just via GS, or some classes would be stuck in the same situation that many have now, while others would be stuck waiting for ever for a match, if they got one at all.
As for the Tenacity Gear, I'm not overly fond of being pigeon-holed into a set of gear to do PvP in this game. I have never been fond of Cookie-Cutter methodology, and have no desire to go gemming up a set of gear I currently never use, just for PvP here. I am curious to see if they can actually keep the PvP changes singularly effecting PvP, and not bleeding over into PvE. As things have long been, a change to one pretty much inevitably effects the other as well. Also, blanket changes are never a good idea, this has been long proven in MMO-MMORPGs, this proverbial *<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" to dial back, and forth with, is applying to an already heavily un-balanced scape. So whether it is turned up, or down, the balance is still skewed, and turning it one way will just make some issues more glaringly obvious, while turning it the other way will do so for others. I think they should work on actual class by class balancing so as to actually even out the playing field some before they go *knobing* things.
Problems with certain items, and, or skills, or feats being used in PvP?... Simple, dis-allow them in PvP.
"Problems with certain items, and, or skills, or feats being used in PvP?... Simple, dis-allow them in PvP."
Exactly, some skills/encounters/stats/artifacts should not be allowed in PvP.
I don't really understand. It's quite a simple logic:
What makes the difference in PvP?
- Build. Every player have the same tools to make a build. You're weaker, you're stronger, it's up to you.
- Skills. Same as above. You know how to fight in PvP, you don't know how to fight. It's up to you.
- Gear. Here we go. Right now, the most effective gear is T2 gear, available to top players mainly. Hard to obtain. Need to DD or run dungeons a lot, or pay a lot of AD. PvP gear is easy to obtain. You just have to PvP, you either win or lose, you gradually build your set. And artifact. What is left out are jewelry and weapon set. You still can get pretty decent purple weapons through PvP or AH, and purple jewelry from unicorn or draco seals that are just slightly worse than greaters or ancients. So powering up PvP sets that are cheap and easy to get is to actually reduce the gap between higher ups and lower level players.
- Enchants. Here is the big difference: armor and weapon enchants make a HUGE difference. Going from the perfects of higher up to the lessers or no-enchant of the low level players, actually makes a huge difference. But... there are few enchants that are cheap to get. Barkshield: just run MoH skirmish. Very good to improve survivability in PvP. Terror: can get from sharandar quests.
May be it needs to be tweaked, but i don't get what is the problem. Everyone complaining because they feel powerless against top geared ppl. Now they try to close the gear gap powering up the cheap PvP sets for PvP, and you still complain.
Balance PvP. They try to do it, reducing the weight of geat in PvP, you complain cause you wanted more modes.
What do you want guys? I don't get it. If people gets unkillable with the new stat, then it needs to be tweaked. But the idea behind it is not bad. They are just trying to reduce the difference in PvP between players, making it more accessible for everyone.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited January 2014
PvP needs matchmaking, not tenacity.
Tenacity won't help new players from being mauled by experienced vets. Even if it makes them last a bit longer (which I doubt it will), what's the point if the outcome of the match is set in stone regardless?
Whether they're new players or vets, people queue for pvp to get into a fun match where both sides stand an equal chance at winning. Tenacity doesn't come anywhere close to bridging that gap between a pug of newbs and a premade of vets. Only a matchmaking system can do that by matching teams of equal gear and experience together. It's what everyone wants.
Until there's a matchmaking system, you can always expect there to be leavers, AFKers, point-cap swappers, and every other form of exploitation, whining and harassment. Matchmaking systems assure that people get into the match they want to be in. Until people have that, they won't want to participate.
Tenacity seems like kind of a neat stat to me, that is entirely out of place and useless until there is matchmaking. In fact, nothing pvp related should be discussed or implemented before matchmaking, because that is by far the most important element in making PvP fun for everyone.
Tenacity won't help new players from being mauled by experienced vets. Even if it makes them last a bit longer (which I doubt it will), what's the point if the outcome of the match is set in stone regardless?
Whether they're new players or vets, people queue for pvp to get into a fun match where both sides stand an equal chance at winning. Tenacity doesn't come anywhere close to bridging that gap between a pug of newbs and a premade of vets. Only a matchmaking system can do that by matching teams of equal gear and experience together. It's what everyone wants.
Until there's a matchmaking system, you can always expect there to be leavers, AFKers, point-cap swappers, and every other form of exploitation, whining and harassment. Matchmaking systems assure that people get into the match they want to be in. Until people have that, they won't want to participate.
Tenacity seems like kind of a neat stat to me, that is entirely out of place and useless until there is matchmaking. In fact, nothing pvp related should be discussed or implemented before matchmaking, because that is by far the most important element in making PvP fun for everyone.
MatchMaking Not Tenacity.!!!!!!!!
Yes..the system is already here ( GS requirment to enter a dung..so just do it for pvp as well)
Tenacity is more likely usefull for begginers to get more survibility with *o* gear and skills...Sure it's cool..but what happends when those begginers becomes exp players and geared enough ??then tenacity will bug them as well.
Remove Tenacity , Remove Lagg SPikes ( please ) , Add GS requirment to enter a pvp ..add 1 hour Ban to the ones that exit pvp ( you are restricted to enter pvp for 1 hour due leaving)...and etc etc etc.
What do you want guys? I don't get it. If people gets unkillable with the new stat, then it needs to be tweaked. But the idea behind it is not bad. They are just trying to reduce the difference in PvP between players, making it more accessible for everyone.
Exactly, i share your opinion.
May be the formula need some fix, but this idea is not bad.
This idea won't help low geared to win that's obvious but they will give them more fun, because i highly doubt that we ll have 2 minutes games again in the future with one shot or two shots for the newcomers with absolutely no fun for them.
Less leavers if they have a chance to protect at least one spot, so more glory for everyone.
Beside a matchmaking should be based on a rank and certainly not about GS a better way to see real good teams or players.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I don't really understand. It's quite a simple logic:
What makes the difference in PvP?
- Build. Every player have the same tools to make a build. You're weaker, you're stronger, it's up to you.
- Skills. Same as above. You know how to fight in PvP, you don't know how to fight. It's up to you.
- Gear. Here we go. Right now, the most effective gear is T2 gear, available to top players mainly. Hard to obtain. Need to DD or run dungeons a lot, or pay a lot of AD. PvP gear is easy to obtain. You just have to PvP, you either win or lose, you gradually build your set. And artifact. What is left out are jewelry and weapon set. You still can get pretty decent purple weapons through PvP or AH, and purple jewelry from unicorn or draco seals that are just slightly worse than greaters or ancients. So powering up PvP sets that are cheap and easy to get is to actually reduce the gap between higher ups and lower level players.
- Enchants. Here is the big difference: armor and weapon enchants make a HUGE difference. Going from the perfects of higher up to the lessers or no-enchant of the low level players, actually makes a huge difference. But... there are few enchants that are cheap to get. Barkshield: just run MoH skirmish. Very good to improve survivability in PvP. Terror: can get from sharandar quests.
What do you want guys? I don't get it. If people gets unkillable with the new stat, then it needs to be tweaked. But the idea behind it is not bad. They are just trying to reduce the difference in PvP between players, making it more accessible for everyone.
Top gear is not at all hard to obtain. I got my HV set in a couple of days. Offhand farming was the worst (MC and VT), but managable.
Rank 7s and normal enchantments are cake to get. Even a Greater enchantment isn't rough at all, which is all you need for the higher end PVPing.
I'm excited they're getting a lot of feedback from the players in the Test Shard forums, because right now it's one tedious mess of no one winning. I hope they expand Tenacity out of PVP sets only, and reduce some of the damage reduction, because critting for 2k-5k with encounters is going to be awful.
Tenacity won't help new players from being mauled by experienced vets. Even if it makes them last a bit longer (which I doubt it will), what's the point if the outcome of the match is set in stone regardless?
Whether they're new players or vets, people queue for pvp to get into a fun match where both sides stand an equal chance at winning. Tenacity doesn't come anywhere close to bridging that gap between a pug of newbs and a premade of vets. Only a matchmaking system can do that by matching teams of equal gear and experience together. It's what everyone wants.
Until there's a matchmaking system, you can always expect there to be leavers, AFKers, point-cap swappers, and every other form of exploitation, whining and harassment. Matchmaking systems assure that people get into the match they want to be in. Until people have that, they won't want to participate.
Tenacity seems like kind of a neat stat to me, that is entirely out of place and useless until there is matchmaking. In fact, nothing pvp related should be discussed or implemented before matchmaking, because that is by far the most important element in making PvP fun for everyone.
Yes..the system is already here ( GS requirment to enter a dung..so just do it for pvp as well)
Tenacity is more likely usefull for begginers to get more survibility with *o* gear and skills...Sure it's cool..but what happends when those begginers becomes exp players and geared enough ??then tenacity will bug them as well.
Remove Tenacity , Remove Lagg SPikes ( please ) , Add GS requirment to enter a pvp ..add 1 hour Ban to the ones that exit pvp ( you are restricted to enter pvp for 1 hour due leaving)...and etc etc etc.
Or may be PvP needs both.
Here it is the problem: PvP and PvE simply require different setups and gear. GS means a lot in PvE, but means nothing in PvP. I can take my GWF hybrid with blue regeneration stuff at a 13.2k GS and kick the *** of a GWF with 15k GS but low regeneration. Simply cause while regeneration is not so good for PvE (life steal gives better survivability when you're hitting groups of mobs in AoE non-stop), for PvP it's, hands down, the best stat for survivability once your DEF is at cap. And PvP gear set for GWF can be better than, for example, a 2/2 T2-T1 combo, with all its bonus and consequentially higher GS.
So, creating a ranking system and divide players using it, requires time and will make PvP queues much, much longer. Expecially for very strong PvPers.
You've to be really careful when creating a ranking system. GS alone is not enough at all. It requires time.
During that time, people could leave cause they feel PvP is frustrating. The faster way to temporary patch this out is to make PvP a Whole different world, separated from PvE, with it's own rules and gear to, at least, increase the lenght of the fights (so players can at least understand what's going on, instead of BAM get killed in the blink of an eye).
While PvE can be slowly learned, PvP the way it is now, for the average player is brutal. I enjoy it and can now fight against strong enemies knowing what to do and how to fight. But i see average players being slaughtered so fast and so easily that i think "how can you learn and enjoy PvP if you can't even understand what's happening?
Top gear is not at all hard to obtain. I got my HV set in a couple of days. Offhand farming was the worst (MC and VT), but managable.
Rank 7s and normal enchantments are cake to get. Even a Greater enchantment isn't rough at all, which is all you need for the higher end PVPing.
I'm excited they're getting a lot of feedback from the players in the Test Shard forums, because right now it's one tedious mess of no one winning. I hope they expand Tenacity out of PVP sets only, and reduce some of the damage reduction, because critting for 2k-5k with encounters is going to be awful.
But you are not the average player. You're in a strong guild. And playing CW. And no offence, but for CWs going PvE, find groups, going to dungeons, is a joke, with all the stacking of CWs going on since months in PvE. Whole different story for the other classes except DCs.
Specific stats on PvP gear, and specific PvP gear itself, to tweak PvP combat, is a good idea to me. It also allows the devs to tweak PvP and PvE indipendently. Which is, if you ask me, a good thing. It also makes sense. PvP gear should be the best for PvP, not a useless collection of sets that almost no one uses cause everyone goes for T2 or T2/T1 combos of PvE sets.
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andferne3Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 104Bounty Hunter
edited January 2014
The more I find out about the changes, the more these new changes suck.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
But you are not the average player. You're in a strong guild. And playing CW. And no offence, but for CWs going PvE, find groups, going to dungeons, is a joke, with all the stacking of CWs going on since months in PvE. Whole different story for the other classes except DCs.
Specific stats on PvP gear, and specific PvP gear itself, to tweak PvP combat, is a good idea to me. It also allows the devs to tweak PvP and PvE indipendently. Which is, if you ask me, a good thing. It also makes sense. PvP gear should be the best for PvP, not a useless collection of sets that almost no one uses cause everyone goes for T2 or T2/T1 combos of PvE sets.
Yes, I am in a good guild, but that is by choice. If you want to play solo, that is your prerogative. My two mains are a CW and a GWF. Even in my guild, it was difficult getting a full party together to farm for my T2 set for my GWF. I often pugged it. I farmed for that stupid Fallen Dragon offhand for three weeks, multiple times a day. The majority of the time, they were not guild runs.
In regard to PVP gear, it honestly doesn't matter, because everyone will gravitate toward the best set. Getting the T2 GG set is actually more tedious than getting the normal T2 set. I already have the coins. I simply love my HV set and don't want to be hauling around another four pieces of gear.
Yes, I am in a good guild, but that is by choice. If you want to play solo, that is your prerogative. My two mains are a CW and a GWF. Even in my guild, it was difficult getting a full party together to farm for my T2 set for my GWF. I often pugged it. I farmed for that stupid Fallen Dragon offhand for three weeks, multiple times a day. The majority of the time, they were not guild runs.
I see this situation a lot. I benefit from being in a PVE guild so farming gear is up to the individual as there are always guildies available. However, the times that we have to pull in a pug for the group that is one short you sometimes get that guy/girl from a top tier PvP guild since they seem not to have the same luxury.
On the topic at hand, if the new changes ruin pvp further, it will ruin the social environment even more during the matches. If you happen to be the team stomping the other, the opposing side's frustration at a jacked up system will be directed to the opposing players...probably more so than it already is.
I've been trying to think of ways to fix the problem where DCs get less healing out of their heals thanks to the 2 debuffs they get, one from Righteousness, one from the PVP zone. And the solution I found is actually pretty simple, and should create happier players in both PVP and PVE.
Remove Righteousness from DC's, and give every single player in PVP the Righteousness Debuff when in combat, only this time all forms of heals, temporary hit points, regeneration and life steal are 40% less effective on them. This way, everyone will not have such long and drawn out battles in PVP. This will also give PVE DC's an easier time, and will address the issue with stealthy TR's not getting affected by Healing Depression. Everyone will share the DC's pain.
It may sound stupid at first but if you think about it for a second, it's way simpler than some Healing Depression mechanic where you need to get hit before it affects you. Simple solutions tend to fix things better than complicated ones.
Idea is good BUT i disagree. Righteousness isn't a problem in pve as our HW back heal is great (3 charges). If you want remove righteousness, then remove it in pvp but apply new 40% cut to regen and lifesteal. Let our DC heal the others without any drawback! Saw other DCs feedback? we heal per tick for 300-500 with our best single target healing spell on us with high end gearscore, is this what devs want? The only class that has weak dps, forced to be a sandbag and had our healing abilities killed, that is devoted cleric in neverwinter.
I mean heals and temp-HP shielding (which includes Bloodskull Raven artifactsas well) needs balancing because currently it turns the game <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> by forcing a side to focus crazy amounts of effort against a mere single opponent to be able to neutralize it.
Personally, heal-nerfing isn't my thing as well. I usually prefer specific heal-debuff powers instead. But in this case I'll take what I can get.
I agree on this, it takes too much effort to bring down certain classes which rely heavily on heals.
Well, as far as I can see the majority is not testing the new stuff thoroughly but beefs about it. I am quite unsure about the real consequences of these changes as a real test is almost impossible on the preview as too few players are testing.
I can't wait to rofl all over the battlefield due to tenacity, picture this a guardian fighter in 4 piece GG protection SPEC with 50% normal DR and 30% deflect with 1.4 k regen even with healing suppression its whatever now add onto that the bonuses from tenacity and a huge HP pool from the gear and rank 8+ radiants and soulforge or 200% from elven and brong halfling good luck CC'ing that you have just gave me a way to hold a node forerver throw on a potion if thwy even do manage to dent your health and call it a day even
Easy guide to fixing the pathetic PvP in Neverwinter:
1. Make more types of arenas each with their own point and maps
2. Fix the gear score system because the current one is stupid
3. Create brackets using the newly created gear score system
4. Make guantlegrym happen more often until then because it's the only half-decent end-game thing you've created thus far.
inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
Is tenacity terrible in its current incarnation? probably. But it's required. Its the first step in seperating PVP and PVE which is sorely needed. The PVE game has suffered nerf after nerf because of PVP and it's destroyed several classes in the process.
Right now tenacity is a double nerf to dmg and a boost to survivability (it reduces dps stats to put tenacity on gear meaning you deal less dmg), which means no one dies.
What they need to do is add PVP gear for every slot with tenacity stat. The remaining stats are balanced so that each class deals the amount of damage that they need to deal and have the amount of survivability so that they are balanced in PVP. From there, if necessary think about removing Enchant slots and/or weapon/armor enchant slots from PVP gear to further even the playing field, gear wise. or simply add +tenacity enchants for glory from PVP vendor which allows low geared ppl to buy r10 tenacity enchants that gives them greater advantage than r10 radiants would.
Tenacity should be a rating which is compared between opponents to determine damage, with everyone having a base 100 tenacity. My_tenacity/Your_tenacity = dmg bonus. So if i have 500 tenacity (example t2 pvp gear) and you have 400 tenacity (example t1 pvp gear) I deal my damage x 1.25, or 25% more damage. if we have equal tenacity I deal normal damage. If i have 400 you have 500 i deal my damage x .80, or 20% less damage. Now if I have no tenacity i deal 100/your tenacity, ie 1/4 to 1/5 normal damage, and i take your tenacity/100 dmg, ie 4x to 5x as much dmg.
So someone who enters PVP in normal T2 PVE gear perfect enchants etc 18k gs with 100 tenacity goes up against someone wearing t1 pvp gear (for sake of example 400 tenacity total) he deals basically none of his pve damage and takes 4x damage and gets 1 shot by the 9k gs pvper.
As I stated in my original post, the let down for me here is the lack of Communication in regards to what the majority of the player base has been asking for (new maps, matchmaking system, rankings, duels).
I have never seen an outcry in regards to how stats work in pvp...
Adding a tenacity stat (which is the exact same thing a certain top ranked mmo did years ago) will only broaden the gap between the High End PVP crowd and the casuals.
No amount of tenacity, or any stat will save you when your team is a 7k gs pug against a fully geared premade. There lies the frustration, tenacity does not fix the only real issue, the Que system/ Lack of a Ranking/ Matchmaking mechanic.
This also prevents those in the PVE crowd from participating in pvp as they do now. Currently, if you have a Full Set of High End gear (even with stats dedicated to pve) you can que for pvp and excel. If you add a pvp specific stat to gear this eliminates the option to pvp for a majority of the player base.
Furthermore, this forces the PVP Community to all use the EXACT SAME GEAR SET. One of the great things about this game currently is the ability to mix and match 2 and 4 piece sets and create interesting builds. This flexibility will be gone and everyone will wear the gear with the highest tenacity.
We aren't asking for this. We enjoy the PVP stat mechanics as they are now...
How about allowing the folks that use the Foundry the ability to create pvp maps? You can review them, sponsor that map and allow everyone to que for it. The creates Endless content and it will keep the majority of us happy while you focus on scrapping this tenacity idea and work on a Ranking/Matchmaking system for us.
Is tenacity terrible in its current incarnation? probably. But it's required. Its the first step in seperating PVP and PVE which is sorely needed. The PVE game has suffered nerf after nerf because of PVP and it's destroyed several classes in the process.
Right now tenacity is a double nerf to dmg and a boost to survivability (it reduces dps stats to put tenacity on gear meaning you deal less dmg), which means no one dies.
What they need to do is add PVP gear for every slot with tenacity stat. The remaining stats are balanced so that each class deals the amount of damage that they need to deal and have the amount of survivability so that they are balanced in PVP. From there, if necessary think about removing Enchant slots and/or weapon/armor enchant slots from PVP gear to further even the playing field, gear wise. or simply add +tenacity enchants for glory from PVP vendor which allows low geared ppl to buy r10 tenacity enchants that gives them greater advantage than r10 radiants would.
Tenacity should be a rating which is compared between opponents to determine damage, with everyone having a base 100 tenacity. My_tenacity/Your_tenacity = dmg bonus. So if i have 500 tenacity (example t2 pvp gear) and you have 400 tenacity (example t1 pvp gear) I deal my damage x 1.25, or 25% more damage. if we have equal tenacity I deal normal damage. If i have 400 you have 500 i deal my damage x .80, or 20% less damage. Now if I have no tenacity i deal 100/your tenacity, ie 1/4 to 1/5 normal damage, and i take your tenacity/100 dmg, ie 4x to 5x as much dmg.
So someone who enters PVP in normal T2 PVE gear perfect enchants etc 18k gs with 100 tenacity goes up against someone wearing t1 pvp gear (for sake of example 400 tenacity total) he deals basically none of his pve damage and takes 4x damage and gets 1 shot by the 9k gs pvper.
certain classes gain GS much easier then other classes, gs based buff will not work, no to mention it will not take into the account of skill, class and build either.
A pvp bracketing system is the way to go like c class rank to s class etc.
incidentally this could lead to ladders, and we can get data on class win loss ratios
For months the PVP community/player base has submitted fantastic ideas to vastly improve the current state of PVP in Nw. Amongst all of these suggestions never once have I seen a request to add a pvp specific stat to gear (Tenacity), or to change the way the games current stats function (crit,arm pen,regen).
Currently End Game Pvp amongst the Competitive High Tier Players (premades) is actually very balanced in my opinion. Each class has it's strengths and weaknesses and a counter class when played properly. For myself, this is why I play the game, an amazing combat system and competitive pvp.
The purposed changes are not going to effect just a small portion of the player base, like nerfing an armor set or and enchant. These Changes will effect EVERYONE within the pvp community and even those who just que to collect 4k ad a day. This will force nearly everyone to change their current gear comps, enchants, and quite possibly their feat builds.
So my question is this...
Why are these purposed Changes on the table and the long list of Changes which the Player Base has asked for ignored?
~Kain Palidor~
Zen sales. Money, money, money, is all you need...
Honestly, I'm just glad they're planning on paying some measure of attention and effort to PvP. With the combat system this game has, the potential for great PvP is right there staring them in the face. I'd be happy with a few extra maps and a couple of different playmodes.
Well, if you have to respec your feats, you will need respec tokens, only 300 zen in the zen store.
If they add an option for more than one spec per character, it will be well worth it. Hopefully they compromise by offering that feature.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
No amount of tenacity, or any stat will save you when your team is a 7k gs pug against a fully geared premade. There lies the frustration, tenacity does not fix the only real issue, the Que system/ Lack of a Ranking/ Matchmaking mechanic.
clearly didn't read my post.
certain classes gain GS much easier then other classes, gs based buff will not work, no to mention it will not take into the account of skill, class and build either.
clearly didn't read my post.
Removing gear differences is good for balanced pvp. Then it's only about build, skill, and playstyle. You know, being better than someone at video games?
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited January 2014
Removing gearing options removes builds. If the tenacity changes as they are are implemented, everyone will be running around in the exact same gear. Variety is good.
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As a dedicated PvPer, I recommend you step in some matches and witness the level of absolute bullshi* DCs can put up... and then, afterwards, try watching one of those premades where there are multiple DCs, specifically formed on purpose, to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-off PuGs and if you've watched those two, finally, try and watch a premade with those multiple DCs, this time combined with a central GWF fully geared upto its teeth, and see the massacre happen.
Sure, with the right application of debuffs, CCs, ganking, you can bring down a DC -- eventually. But then if your team is busy bringing down that ONE DC, imagine what the rest of the enemies are doing.
So, unlike the doomsayers above, I beg to differ. Reality check: low level players hardly, if ever, rely on heals anyway. The most frequent application of all those heals and temp-HPs and shielding and etcs, is with high-level DCs, and the premades these DCs make a living in. Anything that puts a stop to how those people can play a class so carelessly and so mindlessly, and still be able to shrug of so much damage by simply running around in circles, can only make the PvP better, not worse.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
So u mean DC really deserve a nerf because we are relying too much on heals?? Don't take the several top guys on the pyramid to judge all pvp DC, although i also heal and buff well in pvp (that not include me)
I mean heals and temp-HP shielding (which includes Bloodskull Raven artifactsas well) needs balancing because currently it turns the game <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> by forcing a side to focus crazy amounts of effort against a mere single opponent to be able to neutralize it.
Personally, heal-nerfing isn't my thing as well. I usually prefer specific heal-debuff powers instead. But in this case I'll take what I can get.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
They either need to make some major, major changes, or even more of NWs slim player base is going to leave.
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While bracketing is likely a good idea, bracketing via GS is a bad idea over-all. There are too many cases of GS that does not actually equate with other classes. Rangers for example can get their GS up very fast with lvl 50-60 Blues and no Artifacts they are easily at 12k+, as well there are allot of GFs out there with 20k-22.5k GS when fully geared in Purple 60+ items.
Bracketing would have to be more than just via GS, or some classes would be stuck in the same situation that many have now, while others would be stuck waiting for ever for a match, if they got one at all.
As for the Tenacity Gear, I'm not overly fond of being pigeon-holed into a set of gear to do PvP in this game. I have never been fond of Cookie-Cutter methodology, and have no desire to go gemming up a set of gear I currently never use, just for PvP here. I am curious to see if they can actually keep the PvP changes singularly effecting PvP, and not bleeding over into PvE. As things have long been, a change to one pretty much inevitably effects the other as well. Also, blanket changes are never a good idea, this has been long proven in MMO-MMORPGs, this proverbial *<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" to dial back, and forth with, is applying to an already heavily un-balanced scape. So whether it is turned up, or down, the balance is still skewed, and turning it one way will just make some issues more glaringly obvious, while turning it the other way will do so for others. I think they should work on actual class by class balancing so as to actually even out the playing field some before they go *knobing* things.
Problems with certain items, and, or skills, or feats being used in PvP?... Simple, dis-allow them in PvP.
"Problems with certain items, and, or skills, or feats being used in PvP?... Simple, dis-allow them in PvP."
Exactly, some skills/encounters/stats/artifacts should not be allowed in PvP.
What makes the difference in PvP?
- Build. Every player have the same tools to make a build. You're weaker, you're stronger, it's up to you.
- Skills. Same as above. You know how to fight in PvP, you don't know how to fight. It's up to you.
- Gear. Here we go. Right now, the most effective gear is T2 gear, available to top players mainly. Hard to obtain. Need to DD or run dungeons a lot, or pay a lot of AD. PvP gear is easy to obtain. You just have to PvP, you either win or lose, you gradually build your set. And artifact. What is left out are jewelry and weapon set. You still can get pretty decent purple weapons through PvP or AH, and purple jewelry from unicorn or draco seals that are just slightly worse than greaters or ancients. So powering up PvP sets that are cheap and easy to get is to actually reduce the gap between higher ups and lower level players.
- Enchants. Here is the big difference: armor and weapon enchants make a HUGE difference. Going from the perfects of higher up to the lessers or no-enchant of the low level players, actually makes a huge difference. But... there are few enchants that are cheap to get. Barkshield: just run MoH skirmish. Very good to improve survivability in PvP. Terror: can get from sharandar quests.
May be it needs to be tweaked, but i don't get what is the problem. Everyone complaining because they feel powerless against top geared ppl. Now they try to close the gear gap powering up the cheap PvP sets for PvP, and you still complain.
Balance PvP. They try to do it, reducing the weight of geat in PvP, you complain cause you wanted more modes.
What do you want guys? I don't get it. If people gets unkillable with the new stat, then it needs to be tweaked. But the idea behind it is not bad. They are just trying to reduce the difference in PvP between players, making it more accessible for everyone.
Tenacity won't help new players from being mauled by experienced vets. Even if it makes them last a bit longer (which I doubt it will), what's the point if the outcome of the match is set in stone regardless?
Whether they're new players or vets, people queue for pvp to get into a fun match where both sides stand an equal chance at winning. Tenacity doesn't come anywhere close to bridging that gap between a pug of newbs and a premade of vets. Only a matchmaking system can do that by matching teams of equal gear and experience together. It's what everyone wants.
Until there's a matchmaking system, you can always expect there to be leavers, AFKers, point-cap swappers, and every other form of exploitation, whining and harassment. Matchmaking systems assure that people get into the match they want to be in. Until people have that, they won't want to participate.
Tenacity seems like kind of a neat stat to me, that is entirely out of place and useless until there is matchmaking. In fact, nothing pvp related should be discussed or implemented before matchmaking, because that is by far the most important element in making PvP fun for everyone.
MatchMaking Not Tenacity.!!!!!!!!
Yes..the system is already here ( GS requirment to enter a dung..so just do it for pvp as well)
Tenacity is more likely usefull for begginers to get more survibility with *o* gear and skills...Sure it's cool..but what happends when those begginers becomes exp players and geared enough ??then tenacity will bug them as well.
Remove Tenacity , Remove Lagg SPikes ( please ) , Add GS requirment to enter a pvp ..add 1 hour Ban to the ones that exit pvp ( you are restricted to enter pvp for 1 hour due leaving)...and etc etc etc.
Exactly, i share your opinion.
May be the formula need some fix, but this idea is not bad.
This idea won't help low geared to win that's obvious but they will give them more fun, because i highly doubt that we ll have 2 minutes games again in the future with one shot or two shots for the newcomers with absolutely no fun for them.
Less leavers if they have a chance to protect at least one spot, so more glory for everyone.
Beside a matchmaking should be based on a rank and certainly not about GS a better way to see real good teams or players.
Top gear is not at all hard to obtain. I got my HV set in a couple of days. Offhand farming was the worst (MC and VT), but managable.
Rank 7s and normal enchantments are cake to get. Even a Greater enchantment isn't rough at all, which is all you need for the higher end PVPing.
I'm excited they're getting a lot of feedback from the players in the Test Shard forums, because right now it's one tedious mess of no one winning. I hope they expand Tenacity out of PVP sets only, and reduce some of the damage reduction, because critting for 2k-5k with encounters is going to be awful.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Or may be PvP needs both.
Here it is the problem: PvP and PvE simply require different setups and gear. GS means a lot in PvE, but means nothing in PvP. I can take my GWF hybrid with blue regeneration stuff at a 13.2k GS and kick the *** of a GWF with 15k GS but low regeneration. Simply cause while regeneration is not so good for PvE (life steal gives better survivability when you're hitting groups of mobs in AoE non-stop), for PvP it's, hands down, the best stat for survivability once your DEF is at cap. And PvP gear set for GWF can be better than, for example, a 2/2 T2-T1 combo, with all its bonus and consequentially higher GS.
So, creating a ranking system and divide players using it, requires time and will make PvP queues much, much longer. Expecially for very strong PvPers.
You've to be really careful when creating a ranking system. GS alone is not enough at all. It requires time.
During that time, people could leave cause they feel PvP is frustrating. The faster way to temporary patch this out is to make PvP a Whole different world, separated from PvE, with it's own rules and gear to, at least, increase the lenght of the fights (so players can at least understand what's going on, instead of BAM get killed in the blink of an eye).
While PvE can be slowly learned, PvP the way it is now, for the average player is brutal. I enjoy it and can now fight against strong enemies knowing what to do and how to fight. But i see average players being slaughtered so fast and so easily that i think "how can you learn and enjoy PvP if you can't even understand what's happening?
But you are not the average player. You're in a strong guild. And playing CW. And no offence, but for CWs going PvE, find groups, going to dungeons, is a joke, with all the stacking of CWs going on since months in PvE. Whole different story for the other classes except DCs.
Specific stats on PvP gear, and specific PvP gear itself, to tweak PvP combat, is a good idea to me. It also allows the devs to tweak PvP and PvE indipendently. Which is, if you ask me, a good thing. It also makes sense. PvP gear should be the best for PvP, not a useless collection of sets that almost no one uses cause everyone goes for T2 or T2/T1 combos of PvE sets.
Yes, I am in a good guild, but that is by choice. If you want to play solo, that is your prerogative. My two mains are a CW and a GWF. Even in my guild, it was difficult getting a full party together to farm for my T2 set for my GWF. I often pugged it. I farmed for that stupid Fallen Dragon offhand for three weeks, multiple times a day. The majority of the time, they were not guild runs.
In regard to PVP gear, it honestly doesn't matter, because everyone will gravitate toward the best set. Getting the T2 GG set is actually more tedious than getting the normal T2 set. I already have the coins. I simply love my HV set and don't want to be hauling around another four pieces of gear.
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I see this situation a lot. I benefit from being in a PVE guild so farming gear is up to the individual as there are always guildies available. However, the times that we have to pull in a pug for the group that is one short you sometimes get that guy/girl from a top tier PvP guild since they seem not to have the same luxury.
On the topic at hand, if the new changes ruin pvp further, it will ruin the social environment even more during the matches. If you happen to be the team stomping the other, the opposing side's frustration at a jacked up system will be directed to the opposing players...probably more so than it already is.
Idea is good BUT i disagree. Righteousness isn't a problem in pve as our HW back heal is great (3 charges). If you want remove righteousness, then remove it in pvp but apply new 40% cut to regen and lifesteal. Let our DC heal the others without any drawback! Saw other DCs feedback? we heal per tick for 300-500 with our best single target healing spell on us with high end gearscore, is this what devs want? The only class that has weak dps, forced to be a sandbag and had our healing abilities killed, that is devoted cleric in neverwinter.
I agree on this, it takes too much effort to bring down certain classes which rely heavily on heals.
Well, as far as I can see the majority is not testing the new stuff thoroughly but beefs about it. I am quite unsure about the real consequences of these changes as a real test is almost impossible on the preview as too few players are testing.
1. Make more types of arenas each with their own point and maps
2. Fix the gear score system because the current one is stupid
3. Create brackets using the newly created gear score system
4. Make guantlegrym happen more often until then because it's the only half-decent end-game thing you've created thus far.
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Right now tenacity is a double nerf to dmg and a boost to survivability (it reduces dps stats to put tenacity on gear meaning you deal less dmg), which means no one dies.
What they need to do is add PVP gear for every slot with tenacity stat. The remaining stats are balanced so that each class deals the amount of damage that they need to deal and have the amount of survivability so that they are balanced in PVP. From there, if necessary think about removing Enchant slots and/or weapon/armor enchant slots from PVP gear to further even the playing field, gear wise. or simply add +tenacity enchants for glory from PVP vendor which allows low geared ppl to buy r10 tenacity enchants that gives them greater advantage than r10 radiants would.
Tenacity should be a rating which is compared between opponents to determine damage, with everyone having a base 100 tenacity. My_tenacity/Your_tenacity = dmg bonus. So if i have 500 tenacity (example t2 pvp gear) and you have 400 tenacity (example t1 pvp gear) I deal my damage x 1.25, or 25% more damage. if we have equal tenacity I deal normal damage. If i have 400 you have 500 i deal my damage x .80, or 20% less damage. Now if I have no tenacity i deal 100/your tenacity, ie 1/4 to 1/5 normal damage, and i take your tenacity/100 dmg, ie 4x to 5x as much dmg.
So someone who enters PVP in normal T2 PVE gear perfect enchants etc 18k gs with 100 tenacity goes up against someone wearing t1 pvp gear (for sake of example 400 tenacity total) he deals basically none of his pve damage and takes 4x damage and gets 1 shot by the 9k gs pvper.
I have never seen an outcry in regards to how stats work in pvp...
Adding a tenacity stat (which is the exact same thing a certain top ranked mmo did years ago) will only broaden the gap between the High End PVP crowd and the casuals.
No amount of tenacity, or any stat will save you when your team is a 7k gs pug against a fully geared premade. There lies the frustration, tenacity does not fix the only real issue, the Que system/ Lack of a Ranking/ Matchmaking mechanic.
This also prevents those in the PVE crowd from participating in pvp as they do now. Currently, if you have a Full Set of High End gear (even with stats dedicated to pve) you can que for pvp and excel. If you add a pvp specific stat to gear this eliminates the option to pvp for a majority of the player base.
Furthermore, this forces the PVP Community to all use the EXACT SAME GEAR SET. One of the great things about this game currently is the ability to mix and match 2 and 4 piece sets and create interesting builds. This flexibility will be gone and everyone will wear the gear with the highest tenacity.
We aren't asking for this. We enjoy the PVP stat mechanics as they are now...
How about allowing the folks that use the Foundry the ability to create pvp maps? You can review them, sponsor that map and allow everyone to que for it. The creates Endless content and it will keep the majority of us happy while you focus on scrapping this tenacity idea and work on a Ranking/Matchmaking system for us.
~Kain Palidor~
certain classes gain GS much easier then other classes, gs based buff will not work, no to mention it will not take into the account of skill, class and build either.
A pvp bracketing system is the way to go like c class rank to s class etc.
incidentally this could lead to ladders, and we can get data on class win loss ratios
Zen sales. Money, money, money, is all you need...
Honestly, I'm just glad they're planning on paying some measure of attention and effort to PvP. With the combat system this game has, the potential for great PvP is right there staring them in the face. I'd be happy with a few extra maps and a couple of different playmodes.
If they add an option for more than one spec per character, it will be well worth it. Hopefully they compromise by offering that feature.
clearly didn't read my post.
Removing gear differences is good for balanced pvp. Then it's only about build, skill, and playstyle. You know, being better than someone at video games?