Although Righteousness has apparently avoided a comment from a dev....
Let's talk about the pvp sets for clerics that give Life Steal as a (wasted) stat. I definitely hope there will be variety in the mix of gear. As it stands, I'm being stronghanded to have it on top of the halved effectiveness in pvp....
Please don't rush this. This can make or break the game.
I've pretty much stoped playing, the devs just dont accnowledge the feedback the get on the forum (its a lot, and most of it is good!).
There are 2 good PvE sets for clerics, both of them were here even in beta, the others are just a straight step down no matter how you look at it (unless they fixed illyanbruen 4-piece going off all at once, on one target)...
And I would LOVE to hear why they think lifesteal is such a "must have" stat for a cleric that they add it on every new piece of gear, did you know we have an at-will called "Astral Seal" that does the same thing, but for the entire party ?
Have you tried stacking up to 10% lifesteal on a cleric, then running with buffing/healing encounters in endgame dungeons ?
YOU DONT DO ENOUGH DAMAGE TO MAKE IT WORTH IT !!
Not to mention how broken armor penetration is for clerics "Look, we fixed it for one skill atleast, enjoy"...
Yeah, I'm a bit mad because of how they treat us clerics (I got a CW & GWF fairly geared and ready, but I truly like the role of a cleric), I'm close to uninstalling the game...
The tenacity changes will only result in groups that never stood a chance of winning in the first place losing more slowly. There's no point in implementing this before Matchmaking. There's no point in implementing any pvp changes before matchmaking.
Because the feel DCs need to be nerfed and GWFs need a buff.
Obviously, Trace.
Which has happened a lot after release. DC does not any nerfs anymore. GWF is pumped so much that GF with same gs usually is less needed then the GWF.
A minority of PvP players do not want anything to do with PvE. Sorry this is not that kind of the game. Companions are disabled in PvP, but any gear earned though PvE should be valid and good in PvP.
Cryptic has said that they are working on a major update for PvP whatever that might be we have no knowledge what major PvP update, but it will be released during this year.
Removing gearing options removes builds. If the tenacity changes as they are are implemented, everyone will be running around in the exact same gear. Variety is good.
They can add variety as and when they wish, it would be good, but at least the devs would have now sets to start with and tinker around how to add other aspects to the classes.
Anyway, peeps very often join the winning team or use the build which is the most successful at the moment, maybe with some variety or if they know of it at all, but the variety need not be glorified all of a sudden.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
They can add variety as and when they wish, it would be good, but at least the devs would have now sets to start with and tinker around how to add other aspects to the classes.
They already have sets to tinker around with. As it stands all of the gear in the game is viable in both PVE and PVP. There's no need to reduce building options by putting Tenacity on PVP gear only. Make the Tenacity a value dependent on the gear's already existing GS value.
Or better yet, scrap Tenacity altogether until Matchmaking is implemented. Tenacity will only result in groups that never stood a chance at winning in the first place losing more slowly.
Until there is a Matchmaking system, 99/100 matches will be over in the first few minutes, because the odds of getting into an even match are slim to none when left to chance. Until there is a Matchmaking system, there will always be abuse of the system (point cap trading, excessive leaving and AFK) because the odds of getting into a fun match are slim to none.
Tenacity does not fix any of the game's current problems with PvP. Matchmaking does. I don't have a problem with Tenacity itself, except it's just not needed or useful until core issues are addressed. Tenacity does nothing to improve the experience of teams that should never be matched together in the first place, which is currently the vast majority of pvp matches, and will be until Matchmaking is implemented. It does improve the experience of teams that should be fighting each other, but what use is that if it NEVER HAPPENS?
Furthermore, IF there was a matchmaking system, Tenacity could be used to improve the experience of PvP in different brackets in different ways. Low GS chars dying too quickly? Tune Tenacity up in that bracket and healing depression down. High GS matches taking too long? Tenacity down, depression up in this bracket. Distributing Tenacity and Depression as a flat value across all characters will not result in balance. Balance comes from matching evenly geared and experienced players against each other, not from tweaking a stat, or a class, or a skill.
Implementing Tenacity before Matchmaking just doesn't make any sense.
As a dedicated PvPer, I recommend you step in some matches and witness the level of absolute bullshi* DCs can put up... and then, afterwards, try watching one of those premades where there are multiple DCs, specifically formed on purpose, to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-off PuGs and if you've watched those two, finally, try and watch a premade with those multiple DCs, this time combined with a central GWF fully geared upto its teeth, and see the massacre happen.
Sure, with the right application of debuffs, CCs, ganking, you can bring down a DC -- eventually. But then if your team is busy bringing down that ONE DC, imagine what the rest of the enemies are doing.
So, unlike the doomsayers above, I beg to differ. Reality check: low level players hardly, if ever, rely on heals anyway. The most frequent application of all those heals and temp-HPs and shielding and etcs, is with high-level DCs, and the premades these DCs make a living in. Anything that puts a stop to how those people can play a class so carelessly and so mindlessly, and still be able to shrug of so much damage by simply running around in circles, can only make the PvP better, not worse.
No offense, but you sound really inexperienced.... If you are going for the tanky dc first then you are doing it wrong. In order to be tanky we sacrifice a lot of healing stats for defensive stats. Go for the CW or HR... with maybe two dps you can outdamage the healing from the cleric.
Yes, 5 dc is super troll and impossible, but so is every other 5 class comp (other than perhaps cw)... 5 Tr's=> 5 shocking; 5 GWF=> 5 IBS; 5 GF=> knocked off forever etc etc... so you bringing up a 5 dc comp is not at all relevant. In fact if you put 5 dc vs 5gwf, the dc's will lose, I promise... so what do you have to say about GWF's?
Do you know how I can manage to soloqueue in games and win? It is because I heal my teammates. A game cannot be won off of being tanky. You have to be tanky and kill or be tanky and keep your other teammates alive... being a tank alone is not enough to carry... trust me, I have played this game for a long time.
On a side note, it is not easy being a tank dc... you need to know when to dodge, when to save your heal for your ally or yourself (exaltation), use a daily at a good time etc...
You make it sound like all DC's are hard to kill... if not geared/specc'd properly they will die faster than a cw...
Anyways, posts like yours make me really agitated because you don't seem to strategize well and blame it on an "OP class"; Every class can OP you just have to find a strategy that helps you cope with it
Removing gear differences is good for balanced pvp. Then it's only about build, skill, and playstyle. You know, being better than someone at video games?
I read your post in it's entirety, i only zeroed in on things i particularly disagrede with and cared to comment on, and you probably didn't get my real meaning, i meant certain spec will underperform but they can still find a certain bracket to fit in and remain competitive in that bracket. Same can be said for skill and style.
For example a wk may not compete evenly against an mi since we know mi is superior, but against lesser skilled mi with lower gear they can be a better match, hence bracketing, i don;t like the concept of adding temp arbitrary buffs.
They already have sets to tinker around with. As it stands all of the gear in the game is viable in both PVE and PVP. There's no need to reduce building options by putting Tenacity on PVP gear only. Make the Tenacity a value dependent on the gear's already existing GS value.
Or better yet, scrap Tenacity altogether until Matchmaking is implemented. Tenacity will only result in groups that never stood a chance at winning in the first place losing more slowly.
Until there is a Matchmaking system, 99/100 matches will be over in the first few minutes, because the odds of getting into an even match are slim to none when left to chance. Until there is a Matchmaking system, there will always be abuse of the system (point cap trading, excessive leaving and AFK) because the odds of getting into a fun match are slim to none.
Tenacity does not fix any of the game's current problems with PvP. Matchmaking does. I don't have a problem with Tenacity itself, except it's just not needed or useful until core issues are addressed. Tenacity does nothing to improve the experience of teams that should never be matched together in the first place, which is currently the vast majority of pvp matches, and will be until Matchmaking is implemented. It does improve the experience of teams that should be fighting each other, but what use is that if it NEVER HAPPENS?
Furthermore, IF there was a matchmaking system, Tenacity could be used to improve the experience of PvP in different brackets in different ways. Low GS chars dying too quickly? Tune Tenacity up in that bracket and healing depression down. High GS matches taking too long? Tenacity down, depression up in this bracket. Distributing Tenacity and Depression as a flat value across all characters will not result in balance. Balance comes from matching evenly geared and experienced players against each other, not from tweaking a stat, or a class, or a skill.
Implementing Tenacity before Matchmaking just doesn't make any sense.
ALL
OF
THIS!
This is called SENSE!
Something thats obviously lacking if we're having this discussion and thread.
They already have sets to tinker around with. As it stands all of the gear in the game is viable in both PVE and PVP. There's no need to reduce building options by putting Tenacity on PVP gear only. Make the Tenacity a value dependent on the gear's already existing GS value.
Or better yet, scrap Tenacity altogether until Matchmaking is implemented. Tenacity will only result in groups that never stood a chance at winning in the first place losing more slowly.
Until there is a Matchmaking system, 99/100 matches will be over in the first few minutes, because the odds of getting into an even match are slim to none when left to chance. Until there is a Matchmaking system, there will always be abuse of the system (point cap trading, excessive leaving and AFK) because the odds of getting into a fun match are slim to none.
Tenacity does not fix any of the game's current problems with PvP. Matchmaking does. I don't have a problem with Tenacity itself, except it's just not needed or useful until core issues are addressed. Tenacity does nothing to improve the experience of teams that should never be matched together in the first place, which is currently the vast majority of pvp matches, and will be until Matchmaking is implemented. It does improve the experience of teams that should be fighting each other, but what use is that if it NEVER HAPPENS?
Furthermore, IF there was a matchmaking system, Tenacity could be used to improve the experience of PvP in different brackets in different ways. Low GS chars dying too quickly? Tune Tenacity up in that bracket and healing depression down. High GS matches taking too long? Tenacity down, depression up in this bracket. Distributing Tenacity and Depression as a flat value across all characters will not result in balance. Balance comes from matching evenly geared and experienced players against each other, not from tweaking a stat, or a class, or a skill.
Implementing Tenacity before Matchmaking just doesn't make any sense.
Yep, it will not help weaker teams to win against stronger teams, so I wait and hope they are thinking about something like matchmaking; although it will still be possible to abuse any matchmaking system via losing on purpose.
ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited January 2014
If they wanted to use Tenacity to balance matches of undergeared and inexperienced players against veterans, the affects of Tenacity would have to be inversely proportional to each player's gear score. This way, characters with low GS would find themselves with more survivability, whereas fully geared characters would benefit less from it (because they already have the value of their own gear). Healing depression would adversely affect your defensive stats proportional to their value and your total HP pool, so that extremely defensively oriented builds would be affected more greatly than characters without existing defenses besides Tenacity. This would allow these additions to level the playing field between lesser geared characters and fully geared characters.
However, this would require a re-thinking of the way Gear Score is calculated (which is already almost necessary), as it is very misleading because it includes feats and boons, and doesn't include player's most powerful pieces of gear, their weapon and armor enchantments.
I would still prefer matchmaking. To use Tenacity and Healing Depression in this manner would trivialize the acquisition of gear, one of the driving forces of any MMO. The benefit would be to empower strong player skills, which a Matchmaking system would also reward, without devaluing gear players have already acquired.
As already mentioned, if there were gear score brackets, Tenacity and Healing Depression could be used in much the way we have seen already on the test shard to fine tune matches to be more interesting per bracket, by adding survivability in low-GS matching and increasing the affects of Healing Depression in high-GS matches. However, as it stands, I see absolutely no benefit to the current implementation of Tenacity and Healing Depression without first having a Matchmaking system, as the biggest problem in PvP is that the majority of match's outcomes are determined before the match starts by randomly pitting two teams against each other, one of which invariably is more experienced and geared than the other.
If they wanted to use Tenacity to balance matches of undergeared and inexperienced players against veterans, the affects of Tenacity would have to be inversely proportional to each player's gear score. This way, characters with low GS would find themselves with more survivability, whereas fully geared characters would benefit less from it (because they already have the value of their own gear). Healing depression would adversely affect your defensive stats proportional to their value and your total HP pool, so that extremely defensively oriented builds would be affected more greatly than characters without existing defenses besides Tenacity. This would allow these additions to level the playing field between lesser geared characters and fully geared characters.
However, this would require a re-thinking of the way Gear Score is calculated (which is already almost necessary), as it is very misleading because it includes feats and boons, and doesn't include player's most powerful pieces of gear, their weapon and armor enchantments.
I would still prefer matchmaking. To use Tenacity and Healing Depression in this manner would trivialize the acquisition of gear, one of the driving forces of any MMO. The benefit would be to empower strong player skills, which a Matchmaking system would also reward, without devaluing gear players have already acquired.
As already mentioned, if there were gear score brackets, Tenacity and Healing Depression could be used in much the way we have seen already on the test shard to fine tune matches to be more interesting per bracket, by adding survivability in low-GS matching and increasing the affects of Healing Depression in high-GS matches. However, as it stands, I see absolutely no benefit to the current implementation of Tenacity and Healing Depression without first having a Matchmaking system, as the biggest problem in PvP is that the majority of match's outcomes are determined before the match starts by randomly pitting two teams against each other, one of which invariably is more experienced and geared than the other.
One thing I saw so far is that it is harder for damage dealers to oneshoot Clerics; but the system as whole puts the Cleric into big disadvantages; maybe giving them more Tenacity and lesser Healing Depression for themselves would help.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
edited January 2014
TENACITY IS NOT NEEDED!!
____________________________________________
PvP is fun and entertaining because of the way it currently is. Only minor adjustments are required. The TR is suppose to hurt, the CW's Ice Knife is suppose to hurt! The DC is suppose to heal, the GWF is NOT suppose to be a TANK, the GF is suppose to be the TANK. The PvP system is fragile. Before module 2 everything had a ying and yang. Not saying it no longer does, but the GWF with Iron Vanguard is the number one reason why PvP is no longer balanced, but certainly not the ONLY reason. Increasing damage resistance to all classes only slows down/bores PvP matches. What I'm trying to say is, the reason why PvP is enjoyable (although some adjustments are needed) is because of the INTENSITY! The fast pace gameplay, the destruction to player's health points, the different play styles, character builds, strategies, and classes who pose threat to one another. All of it already works FINE. If you change it, there's a very good chance you will ruin PvP. Trust me when I say this.
Matter a fact, here's an example. There's this game I used to play called RS (I don't know if I'm allowed to say the full name). RS had a combat system like non-other. It was very weird, everything worked in slow ticks, player's characters look turns hitting each other. Very strange, but what made it work was the INTENSITY. As weird as it sounds, players enjoy getting hit or hitting others really hard (doing high damage). Because it causes excitement or panic, all of which is ENTERTAINING! The PvP system in RS was weird, but it worked! The day the company decided to make MAJOR changes to the combat system KILLED the game. Hundreds of players (including myself) made threads warning the company of RS, but they still went through with it. When all they had to do was scrap the idea, and make MINOR adjustments to their perfectly working PvP system. The company of RS didn't listen to the community until it was already too late. After suffering from losing thousands of players (or should I say the player's money for membership), only then did they decide to start working with the community by using polling systems for future content. Which allows the players to vote on what they want, and the company of RS would only accept polls that pass with a 75% 'yes' rate. This happened in 2012, which is NOT long ago, and RS community is still divided to this very day. My point is this...
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." <---- This phrase is EXTREMELY important to remember.
I mean think about, the MAIN things people ask for are new maps, new modes, and a better match making system. Do you understand what that means? That means people enjoy PvP the way it is, but they grow bored of playing the same modes, and dealing with rage quitters. Also, many players only PvE for the things they want or need for PvP. So yes, PvP does require a little bit of work. However the changes/updates should ONLY be made in SMALL doses fueled with feedback.
Also, I'm aware "feedback" is easier said then done. Because it's very hard to get matches on the preview server. And there's only a handful of people who actually type out constructive feedback.
But to get back to the main point of this post, Tenacity is NOT needed. Only minor adjustments.
The main sources of complaints in PvP are high spike damages/ TRs oneshotting people, and tank DCs/ GWFs tanking too much. While i think that any player in this game has the chance to counter/ overcome everything with skills and experience, it's quite clear what they are doing, if you read what tenacity will do.
First of all, it increases critical and ArP resistance. Which means, high spike damages will be reduced, which means less people getting 1shotted or killed too fast.
Then, Healing Depression (50% healing effects reduced when being hit in PvP, lasts 10 seconds and is refreshed everytime you get hit) will reduce all the stats/ powers responsible for making some builds too tanky. In particular temp hp and regeneration are being reduced. And self healing of DCs too, during combat. When out of combat, you'll still heal/ regenerate at the same rate as now.
Also, CWs, TRs and HRs are getting, along with a reduction in damage, a significant advantage in healing/ survivability against melee tanks such as GWFs and GFs. Healing Depression activates when you get hit, and lasts 10 seconds.
It's quite easy to guess that ranged or stealthed classes with immunity on dodges will be less affected by healing depression than, for example, a GWF who is being constantly hit.
Being these changes % reductions, the ones who will be affected more are the "extreme" builds. Which means extreme damage or extreme healing/ survivability builds.
What you get (once it's balanced) is basically a system where regeneration/ temp hp/ healing can be important to recover faster between fights, but at the same time no one is able to tank too much or kill too fast during combat. GWFs tanks, for example, will be able to regenerate a lot/ recover fast after a combat, but during the combat you will not need to overcome a 2k+ regeneration wall + temporary hp from unstoppable + potions + artifact, on top of the monster HP pool, to take them down.
It's made to reduce "extremes" that can create problems in PvP, and, at the same time, it also lets the devs make changes for PvP without influencing PvE.
I really, don't understand. This community whines a lot, yet, when devs try to make changes to solve the "problems" the community whines for, the community whines even more.
I understand feedback to make things balanced. Don't get all the negativity towards the idea that, from every point of view, tries to address the stuff people whines for.
The main sources of complaints in PvP are high spike damages/ TRs oneshotting people, and tank DCs/ GWFs tanking too much. While i think that any player in this game has the chance to counter/ overcome everything with skills and experience, it's quite clear what they are doing, if you read what tenacity will do.
First of all, it increases critical and ArP resistance. Which means, high spike damages will be reduced, which means less people getting 1shotted or killed too fast.
Then, Healing Depression (50% healing effects reduced when being hit in PvP, lasts 10 seconds and is refreshed everytime you get hit) will reduce all the stats/ powers responsible for making some builds too tanky. In particular temp hp and regeneration are being reduced. And self healing of DCs too, during combat. When out of combat, you'll still heal/ regenerate at the same rate as now.
Also, CWs, TRs and HRs are getting, along with a reduction in damage, a significant advantage in healing/ survivability against melee tanks such as GWFs and GFs. Healing Depression activates when you get hit, and lasts 10 seconds.
It's quite easy to guess that ranged or stealthed classes with immunity on dodges will be less affected by healing depression than, for example, a GWF who is being constantly hit.
Being these changes % reductions, the ones who will be affected more are the "extreme" builds. Which means extreme damage or extreme healing/ survivability builds.
What you get (once it's balanced) is basically a system where regeneration/ temp hp/ healing can be important to recover faster between fights, but at the same time no one is able to tank too much or kill too fast during combat. GWFs tanks, for example, will be able to regenerate a lot/ recover fast after a combat, but during the combat you will not need to overcome a 2k+ regeneration wall + temporary hp from unstoppable + potions + artifact, on top of the monster HP pool, to take them down.
It's made to reduce "extremes" that can create problems in PvP, and, at the same time, it also lets the devs make changes for PvP without influencing PvE.
I really, don't understand. This community whines a lot, yet, when devs try to make changes to solve the "problems" the community whines for, the community whines even more.
I understand feedback to make things balanced. Don't get all the negativity towards the idea that, from every point of view, tries to address the stuff people whines for.
This new system works -- not perfectly but somewhat. I was in a PvP match on Preview and we fought normal and did duels and it was no more a fast kill fight. I was a Guardian Fighter and I fought against a Trickster Rouge and it was nice to have an actual fight, longer than a control chain till the Rouge is dead; he still hurt but not so much like before; my Guard was actually useful and he had to move around to avoid it.
A Great Weapon Fighter was still a threat, it looked like Regeneration was not totally useless, it seems that you get a small advantage if you have high Regeneration and a whole PvP set and the other offensive stats as needed and possible.
Surely, better geared players (vial enchantments) will burn you down more quickly and are at an advantage, but it is all not so fast like it was before, no easy oneshooting.
Dieing too much, too fast in pvp is not fun. Getting one shot by people is not fun. Some defense is needed and that is what tenacity is.
Sounds like most people do not like it because they want to crush people asap and move on to the next victim. Nerfing damage in pvp will make the fights last longer so a person can actually see whats going on before they die. Healing nerf will mean some players are not seemingly invincible. Interested to see the results.
While I agree that it cools down burst damage, which should raise the enjoyment of some, they have failed to nerf survivability builds (other than DCs). GWFs and GFs are even more tankier now because tenacity > healing depression.
Also these classes offer the best PVP gear which has been sincerely upped by the new stat. Other classes can't make the same use of their gear and thus have been downgraded. Have yet to test my Conq GF (queue doesn't pop), but eager to field her with GG set, 10k Power and 800ish Regen. The survivability should be off the chart for an offensive build.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
Sounds like most people do not like it because they want to crush people asap and move on to the next victim.
People don't like it because this will be the end result regardless of tenacity changes as long as matchmaking is random. Tenacity won't stop pugs from being facerolled by premades. End of story.
The main problem in pvp is not people dying too quickly or living too long. If either of these things are happening, it is because uneven teams that never should have been matched together in the first place are fighting each other.
Matchmaking fixes problems with pvp, tenacity adds more problems. It's really as simple as that.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
Dieing too much, too fast in pvp is not fun. Getting one shot by people is not fun. Some defense is needed and that is what tenacity is.
Sounds like most people do not like it because they want to crush people asap and move on to the next victim. Nerfing damage in pvp will make the fights last longer so a person can actually see whats going on before they die. Healing nerf will mean some players are not seemingly invincible. Interested to see the results.
I'm guessing you've been 1-shotted before? If so, what class were you? How often does it happen? If you're playing a CW, you do know close quarter combat is your weakness right?
I'm guessing you've been 1-shotted before? If so, what class were you? How often does it happen? If you're playing a CW, you do know close quarter combat is your weakness right?
I too saw this happen more than once on many classes, there is nothing wrong with lowering the damage output.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
I too saw this happen more than once on many classes, there is nothing wrong with lowering the damage output.
Getting killed over and over by someone you never stood a chance of competing against slightly more slowly will not make pvp more fun for anybody.
Until they introduce a system that guarantees both sides stand an equal chance at winning, how long it takes a player to die won't matter, because most players will have left the match before 300 points are scored.
Tenacity doesn't fix the real problems that pvp suffers from, which is uneven teams being matched against each other. And in fact, it will only add a new stat to try to balance with more problems.
Scrap it until it's useful. Implement matchmaking.
Getting killed over and over by someone you never stood a chance of competing against slightly more slowly will not make pvp more fun for anybody.
Until they introduce a system that guarantees both sides stand an equal chance at winning, how long it takes a player to die won't matter, because most players will have left the match before 300 points are scored.
Tenacity doesn't fix the real problems that pvp suffers from, which is uneven teams being matched against each other. And in fact, it will only add a new stat to try to balance with more problems.
Scrap it until it's useful. Implement matchmaking.
so much this as it stands now. im a halfling Protection GF with 50%dr and 30% deflect with 33k hp and close to 2k regen i have yet to be 1 shot by any class in a long long time, the people that complain about these things are the ones that are very under geared or are PVE specced and decide it's a good idea to run some pvp and think they will do well. my build is strictly focused for pvp and when i go into a dungeon im mediocre at best on that toon. if you give me tenacity i will have way more hp and defense and a little less regen making me **** near unkillable or virtually immortal.
without tenacity i can and have been killed by a whole team or just 1 individual that knows how to play. first they should fix the roots of the hunter because thats also what people complain about and everyone that is whining about GWf it's just the iron vanguard sents that are able to do this through a very simple rotation of threating rush takedown TR frontline TR IBS and it's only happening because you are marked every time and they have weapons master student of the sword and deep gash. everyone can gear for pvp with the T2 gear and build for it people just dont and then wonder why they get rofl stomped. the match making system is broken when i get put into a team of 8-10k gs indivuals in greens and a few purples vs a full guild group or premade it's ridiculously lopsided matchmaking would fix the leaver problem the complaining that things are way to hard/OP ect. equally geared individuals make for great games thats why most pvp guilds are now either running pmvspm or inhouse games because its boring as all hell to run a pug with a full pvp group and have everyone leave in the first 15 points because they stood no chance to begin with. take a look at 1-59 pvp does that need tenacity? the answer is no because everyone is on equal footing.
on a side note it's not just tenacity it's also healing depression that should never even exist theres no need for it at all if you get hit with a 10k crit after tenacity pop a a potion 10kcrit null and void why because potions are not effected by it and i can pop one of these every couple mins pfft and 10k is being cordial if i have close to 80%dr you other hits are more like tickles even with depression say i regen for close 1.5k hp at half health normally after 50% im still regening for 750 per tick where your hitting me for maybe 600 dmg on at wills.
also on a side i just dont see team deathmatch style games being anyfun at all leave those to FPS i guess thats just me being bored after years of arena but hey to each their own.
all in all FIX THE MATCHMAKING SYSTEM FIRST AND FOREMOST.
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andferne3Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 104Bounty Hunter
edited January 2014
I agree that this pvp stat should be shelved. Adding this stat does not fix anything, it just complicates things with adding another stat among other things. Devs read your community's feedback. For months now numerous people have been telling you how to fix pvp, and make a lot of people happy. Some things to highlight, that have already been mentioned in this thread multiple times, and elsewhere.
1) Make a match-making system
2) Give us more maps
3) Give us more modes/styles of Pvp.
4) Fix known 'issues' things such as the HR's roots, GWF's deep gash, etc
5) Give us an open zone for pvp.
Experienced PnPers may help me out here: I always wondered whether it would be possible to create two (or more) factions (WoW, WildStar etc.) through Alignment that would be treated as antagonists in an open world PVP setting. I mean, it would be kinda weird to gather in all adventure zones and the PE just to rip one's head off in a particular area, but this is more a conceptional question anyway.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
Experienced PnPers may help me out here: I always wondered whether it would be possible to create two (or more) factions (WoW, WildStar etc.) through Alignment that would be treated as antagonists in an open world PVP setting. I mean, it would be kinda weird to gather in all adventure zones and the PE just to rip one's head off in a particular area, but this is more a conceptional question anyway.
Yes, and several other games do it, but we can't mention them here for reference because it will be censored as advertising for another MMO.
Needless to say that open world PvP zones with zone bosses where groups of people from various factions have to compete with each other while simultaneously attempting to take down a boss can be very fun.
Some games even have PvP dungeons, where the 2 (or 3) teams enter from different points and collide with each other at various parts.
It's worth mentioning that if they ever introduced mixed PvE/PvP environments, balancing Tenacity and Healing Depression in this scenario would be a nightmare. Since Tenacity does nothing to fix the largest problem PvP suffers from (player attrition due to uneven teams), introduces problems of its own, and further complicates the introduction of new PvP mechanics, I really cannot fathom any justifications for its introduction.
Zone bosses would be a good addition for PvE as well but that's another topic.
Experienced PnPers may help me out here: I always wondered whether it would be possible to create two (or more) factions (WoW, WildStar etc.) through Alignment that would be treated as antagonists in an open world PVP setting. I mean, it would be kinda weird to gather in all adventure zones and the PE just to rip one's head off in a particular area, but this is more a conceptional question anyway.
There was that time you had to fight against a "competing adventuring party" in cragmire crypts as bosses.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
There was that time you had to fight against a "competing adventuring party" in cragmire crypts as bosses.
The competing adventuring party makes another appearance in Malabog's Castle.
It would make the encounter (and dungeon as a whole) much more entertaining were it an actual, live, competing adventuring party.
Think Guantlgrym, where the winner gets to go on to face a t2 boss and the loser faces a t1 boss, but with an actual matchmaking system so the factions aren't hugely lopsided. And without the meaningless first phase that everyone AFKs through or only shows up for the last 2 minutes to get their daily done.
The competing adventuring party makes another appearance in Malabog's Castle.
It would make the encounter (and dungeon as a whole) much more entertaining were it an actual, live, competing adventuring party.
A game called Global Agenda had a mode like this, where two parties went into the instance ("dungeon" in NW terms), and one side were actually friendly to the mobs, and could move freely. Their job was to harass, grief and generally mess with the team trying to clear the dungeon. After the first team had cleared the last boss, the team swapped sides, and the whole thing happened again. The team with the best time won.
Yes, thankfully, there was a timer to restrict the overall length of match, too.
This neatly sidestepped all the practical difficulties of co-timing the encounter, queues etc., as the other team were in the instance from the start, and it required no customisation barring spawn points. Something like that would work. Allowing everyone to be someone else's competing adventuring party involves some behind the scenes complexity and sleight of hand that make it slightly more tricky than you might imagine (given how you normally build instances and hand off between instances/servers etc.).
It would be awesome, mind you. However, there are lots of basic mechanics in the game which still don't work properly (adds not despawning on wipes etc., queues bringing players into cleared instances) that make me think that complex mechanics might be a little ambitious for the dev team in its current form.
Back on topic..
I see what Tenacity is trying to do, and I applaud the attempt.. however, I fear that the approach is flawed.
I suppose it's trying to address two issues.. The first is that damage output for PvE is balanced for the PvE encounters, where targets have a lot of HP. Obviously, someone who is used to 50k at-wills in PvE can't be allowed to do that in PvP. This is a common problem in MMOs, which is why stats like "tenacity" or "resilience" exist, primarily to make PvP crits lower. There is nothing wrong with that.
First, right now, tenacity affects too many stats. Sure, you can adjust the coefficients for each stat, but still, it feels like a bit of a sawn-off shotgun.
It seems to be trying to level the playing field- because it's no fun getting steamed. However, the reason that people are getting steamrolled is because of massive disparities of gear, skill and experience. No matter the class (I have four, at last count), they all sucked and died a lot in PvP at first, they all lasted longer as my gear got better, and then as I learned to play a little, I was more successful.
For example, my Control Wizard is squishy, really squishy. Until I improved my gear, I could get regularly one-shotted. No big deal, them's the breaks. However, the biggest factor in victory or defeat is skill. Until I learned to kite and control melee, I was a free kill. Once I did, I stood a chance. When I am in practise, I will usually beat bad players, and lose to players who are better than me, given rough gear parity. This is as it should be. I don't expect to rock up in 9k GS and face tank a half-orc in armour and a giant sword, as a CW in a dress.
No, I feel like tenacity is (currently) an attempt to compensate for the lack of even a behind the scenes match-making. Some other games attempt to have some kills/points based ranking, and bracket you (where possible) with broadly similar players. It's not perfect, but it helps to keep things fun. Obviously when not many players are in the queue, it mixes things up a bit, but it's generally an excellent way to keep things interesting.
Another approach (which isn't mutually exclusive with ranking/bracketting) is to use standardised gear during PvP, to avoid the steamroller effect. I am guessing that an F2P ("P2W") game is unlikely to adopt this approach, as obviously, they want people to experience the massive resource pinch of trying to maintain a second set of enchants.
Anyway, right now, PvP with tenacity in its current state feels feeble and boring. The stat overreaches itself. I would be happy to see it dialled back in scope to affect damage output disparities between PvP and PvE only (maybe reducing crit severity). This is an important aim, as right now, the time to kill can be too low, making some fights feel too shallow/fast. It's a balancing act though, it needs dialling back to find the "sweet spot" where people can still kill each other and victories can still feel conclusive, while still being an improvement on the status quo.
However, to try and make it a "welfare stat" to compensate for gear or practise will reduce the appeal of PvP in general. I would suggest that the devs measure twice and cut once- and make the stat relatively weak, making small changes to it with care. Major changes cause "chasing the needle", a downward spiral of overcorrection (think helicopter pilots, not "Trainspotting" ). If the devs want to make PvP less hostile to new players, the best approach is improvements to matchmaking, really.
Sorry for the length of this post; I didn't have time to write a shorter one.. ahem.
Another approach (which isn't mutually exclusive with ranking/bracketting) is to use standardised gear during PvP, to avoid the steamroller effect. I am guessing that an F2P ("P2W") game is unlikely to adopt this approach, as obviously, they want people to experience the massive resource pinch of trying to maintain a second set of enchants.
Yet, this is exactly another consequence of Tenacity, as currently implemented. Everyone would be forced to acquire, carry around and use a fixed set of GG gear (only GG gear has Tenacity on every piece) to even have an impact in PvP, otherwise you may as well afk in spawn or attempt glory swapping or never pvp, even for dailies as most players, who are non-PvPers, currently do.
Comments
Essence of Aggression
I've pretty much stoped playing, the devs just dont accnowledge the feedback the get on the forum (its a lot, and most of it is good!).
There are 2 good PvE sets for clerics, both of them were here even in beta, the others are just a straight step down no matter how you look at it (unless they fixed illyanbruen 4-piece going off all at once, on one target)...
And I would LOVE to hear why they think lifesteal is such a "must have" stat for a cleric that they add it on every new piece of gear, did you know we have an at-will called "Astral Seal" that does the same thing, but for the entire party ?
Have you tried stacking up to 10% lifesteal on a cleric, then running with buffing/healing encounters in endgame dungeons ?
YOU DONT DO ENOUGH DAMAGE TO MAKE IT WORTH IT !!
Not to mention how broken armor penetration is for clerics "Look, we fixed it for one skill atleast, enjoy"...
Yeah, I'm a bit mad because of how they treat us clerics (I got a CW & GWF fairly geared and ready, but I truly like the role of a cleric), I'm close to uninstalling the game...
So much truth, so few words.
I agree.
puts the great salt lake to shame
A minority of PvP players do not want anything to do with PvE. Sorry this is not that kind of the game. Companions are disabled in PvP, but any gear earned though PvE should be valid and good in PvP.
Cryptic has said that they are working on a major update for PvP whatever that might be we have no knowledge what major PvP update, but it will be released during this year.
They can add variety as and when they wish, it would be good, but at least the devs would have now sets to start with and tinker around how to add other aspects to the classes.
Anyway, peeps very often join the winning team or use the build which is the most successful at the moment, maybe with some variety or if they know of it at all, but the variety need not be glorified all of a sudden.
They already have sets to tinker around with. As it stands all of the gear in the game is viable in both PVE and PVP. There's no need to reduce building options by putting Tenacity on PVP gear only. Make the Tenacity a value dependent on the gear's already existing GS value.
Or better yet, scrap Tenacity altogether until Matchmaking is implemented. Tenacity will only result in groups that never stood a chance at winning in the first place losing more slowly.
Until there is a Matchmaking system, 99/100 matches will be over in the first few minutes, because the odds of getting into an even match are slim to none when left to chance. Until there is a Matchmaking system, there will always be abuse of the system (point cap trading, excessive leaving and AFK) because the odds of getting into a fun match are slim to none.
Tenacity does not fix any of the game's current problems with PvP. Matchmaking does. I don't have a problem with Tenacity itself, except it's just not needed or useful until core issues are addressed. Tenacity does nothing to improve the experience of teams that should never be matched together in the first place, which is currently the vast majority of pvp matches, and will be until Matchmaking is implemented. It does improve the experience of teams that should be fighting each other, but what use is that if it NEVER HAPPENS?
Furthermore, IF there was a matchmaking system, Tenacity could be used to improve the experience of PvP in different brackets in different ways. Low GS chars dying too quickly? Tune Tenacity up in that bracket and healing depression down. High GS matches taking too long? Tenacity down, depression up in this bracket. Distributing Tenacity and Depression as a flat value across all characters will not result in balance. Balance comes from matching evenly geared and experienced players against each other, not from tweaking a stat, or a class, or a skill.
Implementing Tenacity before Matchmaking just doesn't make any sense.
No offense, but you sound really inexperienced.... If you are going for the tanky dc first then you are doing it wrong. In order to be tanky we sacrifice a lot of healing stats for defensive stats. Go for the CW or HR... with maybe two dps you can outdamage the healing from the cleric.
Yes, 5 dc is super troll and impossible, but so is every other 5 class comp (other than perhaps cw)... 5 Tr's=> 5 shocking; 5 GWF=> 5 IBS; 5 GF=> knocked off forever etc etc... so you bringing up a 5 dc comp is not at all relevant. In fact if you put 5 dc vs 5gwf, the dc's will lose, I promise... so what do you have to say about GWF's?
Do you know how I can manage to soloqueue in games and win? It is because I heal my teammates. A game cannot be won off of being tanky. You have to be tanky and kill or be tanky and keep your other teammates alive... being a tank alone is not enough to carry... trust me, I have played this game for a long time.
On a side note, it is not easy being a tank dc... you need to know when to dodge, when to save your heal for your ally or yourself (exaltation), use a daily at a good time etc...
You make it sound like all DC's are hard to kill... if not geared/specc'd properly they will die faster than a cw...
Anyways, posts like yours make me really agitated because you don't seem to strategize well and blame it on an "OP class"; Every class can OP you just have to find a strategy that helps you cope with it
I read your post in it's entirety, i only zeroed in on things i particularly disagrede with and cared to comment on, and you probably didn't get my real meaning, i meant certain spec will underperform but they can still find a certain bracket to fit in and remain competitive in that bracket. Same can be said for skill and style.
For example a wk may not compete evenly against an mi since we know mi is superior, but against lesser skilled mi with lower gear they can be a better match, hence bracketing, i don;t like the concept of adding temp arbitrary buffs.
ALL
OF
THIS!
This is called SENSE!
Something thats obviously lacking if we're having this discussion and thread.
Yep, it will not help weaker teams to win against stronger teams, so I wait and hope they are thinking about something like matchmaking; although it will still be possible to abuse any matchmaking system via losing on purpose.
However, this would require a re-thinking of the way Gear Score is calculated (which is already almost necessary), as it is very misleading because it includes feats and boons, and doesn't include player's most powerful pieces of gear, their weapon and armor enchantments.
I would still prefer matchmaking. To use Tenacity and Healing Depression in this manner would trivialize the acquisition of gear, one of the driving forces of any MMO. The benefit would be to empower strong player skills, which a Matchmaking system would also reward, without devaluing gear players have already acquired.
As already mentioned, if there were gear score brackets, Tenacity and Healing Depression could be used in much the way we have seen already on the test shard to fine tune matches to be more interesting per bracket, by adding survivability in low-GS matching and increasing the affects of Healing Depression in high-GS matches. However, as it stands, I see absolutely no benefit to the current implementation of Tenacity and Healing Depression without first having a Matchmaking system, as the biggest problem in PvP is that the majority of match's outcomes are determined before the match starts by randomly pitting two teams against each other, one of which invariably is more experienced and geared than the other.
One thing I saw so far is that it is harder for damage dealers to oneshoot Clerics; but the system as whole puts the Cleric into big disadvantages; maybe giving them more Tenacity and lesser Healing Depression for themselves would help.
____________________________________________
PvP is fun and entertaining because of the way it currently is. Only minor adjustments are required. The TR is suppose to hurt, the CW's Ice Knife is suppose to hurt! The DC is suppose to heal, the GWF is NOT suppose to be a TANK, the GF is suppose to be the TANK. The PvP system is fragile. Before module 2 everything had a ying and yang. Not saying it no longer does, but the GWF with Iron Vanguard is the number one reason why PvP is no longer balanced, but certainly not the ONLY reason. Increasing damage resistance to all classes only slows down/bores PvP matches. What I'm trying to say is, the reason why PvP is enjoyable (although some adjustments are needed) is because of the INTENSITY! The fast pace gameplay, the destruction to player's health points, the different play styles, character builds, strategies, and classes who pose threat to one another. All of it already works FINE. If you change it, there's a very good chance you will ruin PvP. Trust me when I say this.
Matter a fact, here's an example. There's this game I used to play called RS (I don't know if I'm allowed to say the full name). RS had a combat system like non-other. It was very weird, everything worked in slow ticks, player's characters look turns hitting each other. Very strange, but what made it work was the INTENSITY. As weird as it sounds, players enjoy getting hit or hitting others really hard (doing high damage). Because it causes excitement or panic, all of which is ENTERTAINING! The PvP system in RS was weird, but it worked! The day the company decided to make MAJOR changes to the combat system KILLED the game. Hundreds of players (including myself) made threads warning the company of RS, but they still went through with it. When all they had to do was scrap the idea, and make MINOR adjustments to their perfectly working PvP system. The company of RS didn't listen to the community until it was already too late. After suffering from losing thousands of players (or should I say the player's money for membership), only then did they decide to start working with the community by using polling systems for future content. Which allows the players to vote on what they want, and the company of RS would only accept polls that pass with a 75% 'yes' rate. This happened in 2012, which is NOT long ago, and RS community is still divided to this very day. My point is this...
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." <---- This phrase is EXTREMELY important to remember.
I mean think about, the MAIN things people ask for are new maps, new modes, and a better match making system. Do you understand what that means? That means people enjoy PvP the way it is, but they grow bored of playing the same modes, and dealing with rage quitters. Also, many players only PvE for the things they want or need for PvP. So yes, PvP does require a little bit of work. However the changes/updates should ONLY be made in SMALL doses fueled with feedback.
Also, I'm aware "feedback" is easier said then done. Because it's very hard to get matches on the preview server. And there's only a handful of people who actually type out constructive feedback.
But to get back to the main point of this post, Tenacity is NOT needed. Only minor adjustments.
First of all, it increases critical and ArP resistance. Which means, high spike damages will be reduced, which means less people getting 1shotted or killed too fast.
Then, Healing Depression (50% healing effects reduced when being hit in PvP, lasts 10 seconds and is refreshed everytime you get hit) will reduce all the stats/ powers responsible for making some builds too tanky. In particular temp hp and regeneration are being reduced. And self healing of DCs too, during combat. When out of combat, you'll still heal/ regenerate at the same rate as now.
Also, CWs, TRs and HRs are getting, along with a reduction in damage, a significant advantage in healing/ survivability against melee tanks such as GWFs and GFs. Healing Depression activates when you get hit, and lasts 10 seconds.
It's quite easy to guess that ranged or stealthed classes with immunity on dodges will be less affected by healing depression than, for example, a GWF who is being constantly hit.
Being these changes % reductions, the ones who will be affected more are the "extreme" builds. Which means extreme damage or extreme healing/ survivability builds.
What you get (once it's balanced) is basically a system where regeneration/ temp hp/ healing can be important to recover faster between fights, but at the same time no one is able to tank too much or kill too fast during combat. GWFs tanks, for example, will be able to regenerate a lot/ recover fast after a combat, but during the combat you will not need to overcome a 2k+ regeneration wall + temporary hp from unstoppable + potions + artifact, on top of the monster HP pool, to take them down.
It's made to reduce "extremes" that can create problems in PvP, and, at the same time, it also lets the devs make changes for PvP without influencing PvE.
I really, don't understand. This community whines a lot, yet, when devs try to make changes to solve the "problems" the community whines for, the community whines even more.
I understand feedback to make things balanced. Don't get all the negativity towards the idea that, from every point of view, tries to address the stuff people whines for.
This new system works -- not perfectly but somewhat. I was in a PvP match on Preview and we fought normal and did duels and it was no more a fast kill fight. I was a Guardian Fighter and I fought against a Trickster Rouge and it was nice to have an actual fight, longer than a control chain till the Rouge is dead; he still hurt but not so much like before; my Guard was actually useful and he had to move around to avoid it.
A Great Weapon Fighter was still a threat, it looked like Regeneration was not totally useless, it seems that you get a small advantage if you have high Regeneration and a whole PvP set and the other offensive stats as needed and possible.
Surely, better geared players (vial enchantments) will burn you down more quickly and are at an advantage, but it is all not so fast like it was before, no easy oneshooting.
Sounds like most people do not like it because they want to crush people asap and move on to the next victim. Nerfing damage in pvp will make the fights last longer so a person can actually see whats going on before they die. Healing nerf will mean some players are not seemingly invincible. Interested to see the results.
Also these classes offer the best PVP gear which has been sincerely upped by the new stat. Other classes can't make the same use of their gear and thus have been downgraded. Have yet to test my Conq GF (queue doesn't pop), but eager to field her with GG set, 10k Power and 800ish Regen. The survivability should be off the chart for an offensive build.
People don't like it because this will be the end result regardless of tenacity changes as long as matchmaking is random. Tenacity won't stop pugs from being facerolled by premades. End of story.
The main problem in pvp is not people dying too quickly or living too long. If either of these things are happening, it is because uneven teams that never should have been matched together in the first place are fighting each other.
Matchmaking fixes problems with pvp, tenacity adds more problems. It's really as simple as that.
I'm guessing you've been 1-shotted before? If so, what class were you? How often does it happen? If you're playing a CW, you do know close quarter combat is your weakness right?
I too saw this happen more than once on many classes, there is nothing wrong with lowering the damage output.
Getting killed over and over by someone you never stood a chance of competing against slightly more slowly will not make pvp more fun for anybody.
Until they introduce a system that guarantees both sides stand an equal chance at winning, how long it takes a player to die won't matter, because most players will have left the match before 300 points are scored.
Tenacity doesn't fix the real problems that pvp suffers from, which is uneven teams being matched against each other. And in fact, it will only add a new stat to try to balance with more problems.
Scrap it until it's useful. Implement matchmaking.
so much this as it stands now. im a halfling Protection GF with 50%dr and 30% deflect with 33k hp and close to 2k regen i have yet to be 1 shot by any class in a long long time, the people that complain about these things are the ones that are very under geared or are PVE specced and decide it's a good idea to run some pvp and think they will do well. my build is strictly focused for pvp and when i go into a dungeon im mediocre at best on that toon. if you give me tenacity i will have way more hp and defense and a little less regen making me **** near unkillable or virtually immortal.
without tenacity i can and have been killed by a whole team or just 1 individual that knows how to play. first they should fix the roots of the hunter because thats also what people complain about and everyone that is whining about GWf it's just the iron vanguard sents that are able to do this through a very simple rotation of threating rush takedown TR frontline TR IBS and it's only happening because you are marked every time and they have weapons master student of the sword and deep gash. everyone can gear for pvp with the T2 gear and build for it people just dont and then wonder why they get rofl stomped. the match making system is broken when i get put into a team of 8-10k gs indivuals in greens and a few purples vs a full guild group or premade it's ridiculously lopsided matchmaking would fix the leaver problem the complaining that things are way to hard/OP ect. equally geared individuals make for great games thats why most pvp guilds are now either running pmvspm or inhouse games because its boring as all hell to run a pug with a full pvp group and have everyone leave in the first 15 points because they stood no chance to begin with. take a look at 1-59 pvp does that need tenacity? the answer is no because everyone is on equal footing.
on a side note it's not just tenacity it's also healing depression that should never even exist theres no need for it at all if you get hit with a 10k crit after tenacity pop a a potion 10kcrit null and void why because potions are not effected by it and i can pop one of these every couple mins pfft and 10k is being cordial if i have close to 80%dr you other hits are more like tickles even with depression say i regen for close 1.5k hp at half health normally after 50% im still regening for 750 per tick where your hitting me for maybe 600 dmg on at wills.
also on a side i just dont see team deathmatch style games being anyfun at all leave those to FPS i guess thats just me being bored after years of arena but hey to each their own.
all in all FIX THE MATCHMAKING SYSTEM FIRST AND FOREMOST.
1) Make a match-making system
2) Give us more maps
3) Give us more modes/styles of Pvp.
4) Fix known 'issues' things such as the HR's roots, GWF's deep gash, etc
5) Give us an open zone for pvp.
Experienced PnPers may help me out here: I always wondered whether it would be possible to create two (or more) factions (WoW, WildStar etc.) through Alignment that would be treated as antagonists in an open world PVP setting. I mean, it would be kinda weird to gather in all adventure zones and the PE just to rip one's head off in a particular area, but this is more a conceptional question anyway.
Yes, and several other games do it, but we can't mention them here for reference because it will be censored as advertising for another MMO.
Needless to say that open world PvP zones with zone bosses where groups of people from various factions have to compete with each other while simultaneously attempting to take down a boss can be very fun.
Some games even have PvP dungeons, where the 2 (or 3) teams enter from different points and collide with each other at various parts.
It's worth mentioning that if they ever introduced mixed PvE/PvP environments, balancing Tenacity and Healing Depression in this scenario would be a nightmare. Since Tenacity does nothing to fix the largest problem PvP suffers from (player attrition due to uneven teams), introduces problems of its own, and further complicates the introduction of new PvP mechanics, I really cannot fathom any justifications for its introduction.
Zone bosses would be a good addition for PvE as well but that's another topic.
There was that time you had to fight against a "competing adventuring party" in cragmire crypts as bosses.
The competing adventuring party makes another appearance in Malabog's Castle.
It would make the encounter (and dungeon as a whole) much more entertaining were it an actual, live, competing adventuring party.
Think Guantlgrym, where the winner gets to go on to face a t2 boss and the loser faces a t1 boss, but with an actual matchmaking system so the factions aren't hugely lopsided. And without the meaningless first phase that everyone AFKs through or only shows up for the last 2 minutes to get their daily done.
A game called Global Agenda had a mode like this, where two parties went into the instance ("dungeon" in NW terms), and one side were actually friendly to the mobs, and could move freely. Their job was to harass, grief and generally mess with the team trying to clear the dungeon. After the first team had cleared the last boss, the team swapped sides, and the whole thing happened again. The team with the best time won.
Yes, thankfully, there was a timer to restrict the overall length of match, too.
This neatly sidestepped all the practical difficulties of co-timing the encounter, queues etc., as the other team were in the instance from the start, and it required no customisation barring spawn points. Something like that would work. Allowing everyone to be someone else's competing adventuring party involves some behind the scenes complexity and sleight of hand that make it slightly more tricky than you might imagine (given how you normally build instances and hand off between instances/servers etc.).
It would be awesome, mind you. However, there are lots of basic mechanics in the game which still don't work properly (adds not despawning on wipes etc., queues bringing players into cleared instances) that make me think that complex mechanics might be a little ambitious for the dev team in its current form.
Back on topic..
I see what Tenacity is trying to do, and I applaud the attempt.. however, I fear that the approach is flawed.
I suppose it's trying to address two issues.. The first is that damage output for PvE is balanced for the PvE encounters, where targets have a lot of HP. Obviously, someone who is used to 50k at-wills in PvE can't be allowed to do that in PvP. This is a common problem in MMOs, which is why stats like "tenacity" or "resilience" exist, primarily to make PvP crits lower. There is nothing wrong with that.
First, right now, tenacity affects too many stats. Sure, you can adjust the coefficients for each stat, but still, it feels like a bit of a sawn-off shotgun.
It seems to be trying to level the playing field- because it's no fun getting steamed. However, the reason that people are getting steamrolled is because of massive disparities of gear, skill and experience. No matter the class (I have four, at last count), they all sucked and died a lot in PvP at first, they all lasted longer as my gear got better, and then as I learned to play a little, I was more successful.
For example, my Control Wizard is squishy, really squishy. Until I improved my gear, I could get regularly one-shotted. No big deal, them's the breaks. However, the biggest factor in victory or defeat is skill. Until I learned to kite and control melee, I was a free kill. Once I did, I stood a chance. When I am in practise, I will usually beat bad players, and lose to players who are better than me, given rough gear parity. This is as it should be. I don't expect to rock up in 9k GS and face tank a half-orc in armour and a giant sword, as a CW in a dress.
No, I feel like tenacity is (currently) an attempt to compensate for the lack of even a behind the scenes match-making. Some other games attempt to have some kills/points based ranking, and bracket you (where possible) with broadly similar players. It's not perfect, but it helps to keep things fun. Obviously when not many players are in the queue, it mixes things up a bit, but it's generally an excellent way to keep things interesting.
Another approach (which isn't mutually exclusive with ranking/bracketting) is to use standardised gear during PvP, to avoid the steamroller effect. I am guessing that an F2P ("P2W") game is unlikely to adopt this approach, as obviously, they want people to experience the massive resource pinch of trying to maintain a second set of enchants.
Anyway, right now, PvP with tenacity in its current state feels feeble and boring. The stat overreaches itself. I would be happy to see it dialled back in scope to affect damage output disparities between PvP and PvE only (maybe reducing crit severity). This is an important aim, as right now, the time to kill can be too low, making some fights feel too shallow/fast. It's a balancing act though, it needs dialling back to find the "sweet spot" where people can still kill each other and victories can still feel conclusive, while still being an improvement on the status quo.
However, to try and make it a "welfare stat" to compensate for gear or practise will reduce the appeal of PvP in general. I would suggest that the devs measure twice and cut once- and make the stat relatively weak, making small changes to it with care. Major changes cause "chasing the needle", a downward spiral of overcorrection (think helicopter pilots, not "Trainspotting"
Sorry for the length of this post; I didn't have time to write a shorter one.. ahem.
Yet, this is exactly another consequence of Tenacity, as currently implemented. Everyone would be forced to acquire, carry around and use a fixed set of GG gear (only GG gear has Tenacity on every piece) to even have an impact in PvP, otherwise you may as well afk in spawn or attempt glory swapping or never pvp, even for dailies as most players, who are non-PvPers, currently do.