These are the new severity numbers after the previous 20% damage reduction is taken into account. If you combine the 2, that 2400 crit actually becomes 1536, a 36% reduction in damage, but still a 92% bonus to the base damage which was 800 instead of 1000.
The thing that surprises me here is how bad crit is without Vorpal now. GWFs will still get great use out of it because of Student of the Sword and Deep Gash, and still get a solid crit boost with 40%+ crit obtainable easily with a perfect Vorpal. Without that Vorpal though ...
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
0
elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
I have only one simple question. There were listed great many sources of heals that are affected by healing depression, but healing potions are at least currently unaffected.
That said nothing was mentioned of boons that heal. Will healing depression also affect boons that can randomly trigger and heal you? I am not saying it should or should not and I am simply asking this as a curious player.
Since there is so many calls for nerfs on GWF(even though they are balanced on preview atm and even slightly underwhellming against good opponents) I will ask the nerf callers (*cough* TRs *cough*) some questions. Why shouldnt tanky classes be more tanky? WHy shouldn't a squishy glass canon CW die quick? Why should a TR be able to facetank(like they did pre-mod2) and win against other- real tank classes? Why should a TR with Full immunity skills, stealth, quickest dodge animation and quickest refiling stamina bar in game get so much defense that they can stand and 2shot plate/mail wearers(and with the ArPen supression removal I fully expect them to pewpew "HAI NAMBAZ" again) like they are CWs while swallowing hits of a Guy with a 5 foot sword that shakes the ground when it hits.
Lmao, the Isssue is that why does the guy with the two handed sword become more tanky then the guy with the shield AND have the most burst damage? You can't argue that gwf is balanced in any way shape or form. Iron Vanguard added 15% or more damage to gwf in general, and allowed them to go with a crit build which is why you see the Sentinel downing everyone in one rotation (which would be fine IF) he also wasnt the most tanky player on the field
And also, CW is the hardest class on the pvp field to play, hands down. They needed this defense Buff for a LONG time
And in reference to TR. First off, our dodge animation isn't the quickest, that goes to HR and CW following after it (thats why you a lot of times when you think you hit the cw but the blink animation appears later) Next, our stamina bar surely isn't the quickest either, and with 2 dodge rolls, (3 if specced into stamina -but that gimps the class) its really a terrible thing to rely on to keep yourself healthy. With that being said, lets get to the topic of "full immunity" time. If we didnt have it, we'd die the minute a gwf,cw,gf,hr, another tr caught us with our ITC down. TR's have no Damage resistance worth anything. our only defense is stealth and ITC, BUT just wait! there's more! God forbid a cw, hr, or gwf finds the TR after ITC and restealthing, because he has a 1 rotation coming his way. Also, because of GWF's Takedown poor mechanics, If the gwf is good, they can sprint in the direction i was heading off into before stealthing AND without a RED TARGET ON SCREEN can mash the takedown button -and because it has a cone range- down the tr in any angle (even though I was stealtged), and even at times completely horizontal to the GWF - this forces me to make sure I have a full stamina bar coming out of stealth or I could kiss my health bar good bye.
So yes, lets do what you suggest, let gwfs run on a steriod rampage and also take out the last class that can contest a gwf and make it paper thin
You guys are assuming a lot of things about TRs... In particular, that we are all permastealth << LOL
The reality is that a very large percentage of TRs don't like this play style. You need to understand that many of us don't even have the ability to restealth in combat and must go without taking damage for a very long time before we can re-stealth.
There is a reason I run around with over 40% deflect and its because I need to face tank players a lot of the time. Since these high burst builds are now dead with crit depression, and with the major nerf to Impact Shot (which most of the time I would only get 3, not 4, charges) my char as well as the rest of TRs will be forced to adopt a perma build.
On the test shard burst builds are worthless. When your opponent has 25-40k hp and your "burst encounters" hardly do any damage anymore (and have long cooldowns and limited charges) you realize the enemy still has 75% hp and your a squishy melee class that is forced to stay out of stealth and do all your damage with at-will spamming; but it takes many minutes just to kill one player, you realize the build is dead
I don't want to hear anymore about TRs coming out best with these changes. The class has been destroyed and now reduced to only one style of play
^^ I Don't understand the nerf to Impact Shot considering the fact that Defenses have already been buffed tremendously. I would like an explanation as to why they wait until they add tenacity to implement this.
I could have lived with them reducing the charges to 3 maximum out of stealth, and I also could have lived with them taking away the very slight prone effect it has, but a 33% damage reduction in addition to significantly increased damage mitigation (so u will be on long cooldown while the enemy has most of their hp remaining) on top of the crit damage nerf... and the move is no longer worth using at all and will be replaced.
pvp is not going to be fun it will be spamming DF the whole entire time. That's basically how it was when I tested it out last time on the test shard
Dagger throw is now strictly for heal depression when u cant get close, and for a ranged option to dismount. The damage is too low now for only 8 charges ><
^^ I Don't understand the nerf to Impact Shot considering the fact that Defenses have already been buffed tremendously. I would like an explanation as to why they wait until they add tenacity to implement this.
I could have lived with them reducing the charges to 3 maximum out of stealth, and I also could have lived with them taking away the very slight prone effect it has, but a 33% damage reduction in addition to significantly increased damage mitigation (so u will be on long cooldown while the enemy has most of their hp remaining) on top of the crit damage nerf... and the move is no longer worth using at all and will be replaced.
pvp is not going to be fun it will be spamming DF the whole entire time. That's basically how it was when I tested it out last time on the test shard
Dagger throw is now strictly for heal depression when u cant get close, and for a ranged option to dismount. The damage is too low now for only 8 charges ><
Yea i agree with what your saying, but impact shot is still better than lashing blade as it is on the preview right now.
But cloud of steel really need 12 charges if these changes go thru cause its really minor dmg.
Yea i agree with what your saying, but impact shot is still better than lashing blade as it is on the preview right now.
But cloud of steel really need 12 charges if these changes go thru cause its really minor dmg.
Wouldnt mind COS 12 charges again IF they dropped the stealth run speed feat to 15% instead of 30% and also put a very small drain on at wills used in stealth on your stealth meter.
If you wanna hide in stealth fine, attack in stealth and it SLIGHTLY drains it faster than normal, however still viable. The impact shot nerf was because of the huge cheese against CWs, Id be with with just 2 charges at old dmg
^^ I Don't understand the nerf to Impact Shot considering the fact that Defenses have already been buffed tremendously. I would like an explanation as to why they wait until they add tenacity to implement this.
I could have lived with them reducing the charges to 3 maximum out of stealth, and I also could have lived with them taking away the very slight prone effect it has, but a 33% damage reduction in addition to significantly increased damage mitigation (so u will be on long cooldown while the enemy has most of their hp remaining) on top of the crit damage nerf... and the move is no longer worth using at all and will be replaced.
pvp is not going to be fun it will be spamming DF the whole entire time. That's basically how it was when I tested it out last time on the test shard
Dagger throw is now strictly for heal depression when u cant get close, and for a ranged option to dismount. The damage is too low now for only 8 charges ><
I agree with this 100%. With all the cumulative changes to TR's over what seems like every patch, our burst dps is dwindling. Nothing is being given to off set these nerfs, no utilization or other options. Last 2 impact shots hit for peanuts now. If they are saying these are too powerful to hit from a safe distance, go ahead and nerf icy rays as well.
They are going to force all TRs into the most boring build of perma.
If these impact shot nerfs go through. I really hope they take a look at path of blades again. Give it the ability to crit, proc weapon damage like everyone else's skills. Also it requires TRs to be alot closer so that gets rid of the range argument. I've tested it on the preview and right now with Tenacity and DR PoB hits as hard as a wet noodle.
It's not really viable. Not even if you move fewer enchants.
Example:
- starts day as PvE, does ALL dailies, ALL Sharandar zones+lairs, sell blue drops, gets maybe 7-10G (optimistic approximation). This will take you about 1 hrs at least, many people have that much time to play/day
- does a few dungeon runs, consumes 5G on pots&kits
- starts PvP... needs to move at least 4 Enchants (wep, armor). Additionally I have to move like 5-6 radiants as well.
- what if you get asked to dungeon again after PvP? Go and underperform, correct, or switch yet again
- if the above didn't happen, new day starts, all your enchants in PvP gear, time to switch AGAIN for PvE chores.
You will go broke in no time. Tested. And I'm also vendoring seals gear too most of the times.
But yes, it's more viable than paying AD for unslotting. Still very bad overall. These enchants are extremely expensive, they should allow us to move them freely between 2 chosen sets or just between PvP and PvE sets.
Fari enough, I was just brain storming too be honest. I barely PVE as it is.
Why on earth does cryptic want it to be in affect 100% of the time combat is engaged?
IMO it would make a LOT more sense if it only happened under certain conditions
I.E:
Proned or Control affects
Combat Advantage damage Against you
Revival
Surrounded by 2 or more enemies(Goes back to incoming combat advantage damage, but more inclusive to middle fights at 2 with 5 people, regardless of them targeting you or not)
only under these circumstances do I believe you should recieve the 10 second incoming heals nerf
10% Reduced Critical Strike Damage
10% Increased Damage Resistance
In addition to: Resistance to Critical Hits
Armor Penetration Suppression
extra Damage Resistance
I don't really see how this will fix the problem of too tanky characters...
sounds like a wash to me. GWFs will be just as powerful as before. yes they get less healing, but I also do significantly less damage to them. They can resist my critical hits altogether... and if it does crit, the overall damage is 10% less. That's not counting the fact that the actual hits will be far less with ArP suppression. And I didn't even mention the extra 10% damage resistance they get (lol) in addition to the DR they get from tenacity
As a TR who has ~50% crit, high ArP and a perfect vorpal... I feel like this forces me to change play styles. My damage will be laughable now.
I DONT want to play as a perma rogue and don't want to switch to bilethorn.
From what im reading this will be the case. this hurts high crit high burst TRs the most. executioner style of play is no longer viable
^ I completely agree. As a combat rogue, I am faced with the decision to go permastealth, or find a new game to enjoy. I've been keeping tabs on PTR and the issue doesn't seem to have been addressed between now and the date he posted this. So. I just hope to bump this is up. On PTR most competitive rogues I see are running stealth-hybrid to mostly stealth builds. If this is intended, then my feedback is this:
The addition of Critical Damage Resistance and Tenacity, if pushed to live as is, will hurt the TR build diversity and most TR will be forced to adapt a certain build in order to be viable. The influx in perma TR could create an uproar in the PvP community even worse than all class imbalance put together.
As a TR, I can agree to applying healing depression while stealthed, in lieu of improving the defense and executioner synergies of combat spec TRs out of stealth.
Honestly what I think the best thing to do about healing depression is just this.
Literally nerf the regen stat to make it about 15% less effective.
Now make healing depression a 35% decrease instead of 50%.
We all know its the regen that they are trying to combat, this puts regen in the same camp (50% reduction) although makes things that shouldnt be nerfed as much as regen (like lifesteal. and healing spells) a little bit stronger.
Jazz,
If you heal someone in combat you should enter combat. Combat isnt what affects your healing though, being struck my an opponent is.....
If these impact shot nerfs go through. I really hope they take a look at path of blades again. Give it the ability to crit, proc weapon damage like everyone else's skills. Also it requires TRs to be alot closer so that gets rid of the range argument. I've tested it on the preview and right now with Tenacity and DR PoB hits as hard as a wet noodle.
Yep that's the whole point, you see other classes abilities also hit/crit a lot less so giving TRs extra damage would be against the whole idea of the patch to make people survive longer.
I agree with this 100%. With all the cumulative changes to TR's over what seems like every patch, our burst dps is dwindling. Nothing is being given to off set these nerfs, no utilization or other options. Last 2 impact shots hit for peanuts now. If they are saying these are too powerful to hit from a safe distance, go ahead and nerf icy rays as well.
They are going to force all TRs into the most boring build of perma.
What nerfs to TR burst damage were introduced in Shadowmantle? And yes, burst damage is nerfed because the devs DON'T WANT you to shoot the poor CW down in 1 rotation not even giving him a chance to react. Believe it or not other classes are also affected by tenacity and their skills hit for peanuts also. How about a 12k(down from ~26) Ice Knife with G.vorpal? or 200/hit at wills on GF? massive 4.5k(down from 12k) IBS crits on GWF.
^^ I Don't understand the nerf to Impact Shot considering the fact that Defenses have already been buffed tremendously. I would like an explanation as to why they wait until they add tenacity to implement this.
I could have lived with them reducing the charges to 3 maximum out of stealth, and I also could have lived with them taking away the very slight prone effect it has, but a 33% damage reduction in addition to significantly increased damage mitigation (so u will be on long cooldown while the enemy has most of their hp remaining) on top of the crit damage nerf... and the move is no longer worth using at all and will be replaced.
pvp is not going to be fun it will be spamming DF the whole entire time. That's basically how it was when I tested it out last time on the test shard
Dagger throw is now strictly for heal depression when u cant get close, and for a ranged option to dismount. The damage is too low now for only 8 charges ><
The explanation is that TR was never meant to hit like a truck on EVERY single offensive ability they have. And 2-3 shooting other people wasn't exactly fun for other people, that's why it got changed.
Oh, that means i was accidentally hit by some aoe or chain lightning... So i see hitting DC once before hitting the target will be the new trend to prevent effective healing. Along with the regen-no crit tenacity gear i will try to build a Runner cleric, with the same concept of perma-stealth TR, you can't hit me so my heals is still so great. Maybe the pvp changes isn't fixed and are subjected to change, still waiting for new stuff like elo system~~
You don't understand the class to make those comments. Every single offensive ability?? (LOLOLOL)
We have 2 burst moves, Impact Shot and Lashing Blade. In fact, we have the most utility moves of any class with very few true damage dealing moves.
Lashing is one of the easiest moves in the game to avoid and has a 20 sec cooldown. Most TRs don't even use it. That leaves us with Impact Shot which is getting nerfed.
Understand that TRs are a burst class by design. We are supposed to be able to kill an enemy target more quickly than any other class.
Now I see impact shot hit for 1k sometimes on the test shard. How is that supposed to help me? These moves have too long of cooldowns for the low damage that they do. We use all our encounters on one single target (leaving us crippled if another comes shortly after due to the long cooldowns) and then look at the enemy hp and realize they still have 80% hp.....
This means we are forced use at-wills to do all of our damage. problem is that duelist furry has a long wind-up (unlike the other classes at-wills)
We cant prone enemies and knock them back like the other classes.
We are a soft melee class, we should be able to have burst moves...
If your going to take away the damage, at least give us some prone and knockback options like the other classes.
CWs and HRs can plant melee classes in place. HR can do so unfairly and we cant escape. Devs call this "a bug" yet they never fix it. Maybe in 2016 it will be fixed..
DCs, GFs, and GWFs can toss ppl around like cannon balls. GFs in particular can play ping pong with players. GWFs can prone you from 100% to 0 if their daily is up
TRs have???? our only CC is smoke and 90% of players don't even use it because its not good enough.
We are soft and a melee class, we deserve to have burst more than any class by far. Now we don't even have that
Being a TR has been reduced to hiding in stealth because we are so soft and doing low damage (all of which comes from at-will spaming)
THis fights dont honestly show anything. It would help to see TR versus other classes with tenacity.
I agree some of the damage nerfs are too much for PVP, I would have liked to see impact have say 2 out of stealth charges instead of 3. With the DR from tenacity AND the crit impact that would have been enough.
I will say that if you play a CW, impact shot is the most broken thing out there. But versus other classes like GWF impact seems like nothing. Even on live it hardly does anything.
The issue isnt that TR deal too much damage in pvp, its that they can deal too much damage while never being seen aside from well timed ITC.
I really think the biggest thing they needed to fix was just put a SMALL drain on stealth when using at wills in stealth. Then nerf the run speed feat down to 10% from 30% BUT! have run speed apply both in and out of stealth, rather than just stealth. Then you just killed the perma build. Then imo, some of the other TR skills need a buff to make them more attractive at damage dealing.
One Idea I had was make Lashing blade stealth benefit NOT 100% crit, but a 50% CD reduction making it a much lower CD when used in stealth. This brings some nice damage back to the class. I could see shadow strike/itc/lashing being viable.
Heck Id even be in favor of having lashing get a damage bonus the lower the targets HP is or something as well... It should be a hard hitting ability.
You cant defend CWs that refuse to invest anything into defense. These are the types of players that grab blue belts so they can avoid using defensive slots instead of offensive slots
The ONLY good CWs in pvp are the ones that focus on defensive abilities... period
Deflect, HP, and Regen in the current pvp system for CWs.
You cant sit here and defend CWs that have 23k hp and 2 defensive slots total (their choice) with COMPLETE AVOIDANCE of any defensive stats in their builds and then say that dps classes kill them too quickly.
OF COURSE WE KILL THEM TOO QUICKLY
but the problem is on their side, NOT ours
0
nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
As a TR you also have Dazing Strike, which contrary to popular thought, is both a long CC as well as decent damage output with short cooldown. Hard to avoid, especially when used from Stealth.
Duelist's Flurry doesn't require you to hit with the first 2 attacks even and you can move/jump between them, so it doesn't really have a long wind up.
TR's damage from At Wills is also quite amazing compared to that of other classes and the utility encounters and features help a lot to make it extremely effective (by making it difficult for an enemy to escape or for you to be killed).
Personally I play Scoundrel and Sly Flourish after applying a Duelist's Flurry Bleed is very damaging and gives you a lot of mobility, which is great when you aren't fighting a target 1 on 1. And considering TR isn't exactly a tank class, I don't see why there would be any complaints from being killed when focussed down by multiple enemies.
Courage Breaker is also ideal in a PvP situation and allows you to maximize the effects of Tenacity/Healing Depression with a target that barely damages you and cannot escape at all.
Dazing Strike has been bugged for a while, and the range of the move is terrible. The animation is very long and doesn't follow the player so an enemy can simply walk away from it
Its a decent move out of stealth but the problem is that you can no longer que it up while in stealth due to some sort of bug making it a bad move
And again, DF does have a long wind up. Its true the first 2 don't need to hit, however the first 2 very slow wind up attacks don't focus target players as they move around, because of this u can simply walk away from it.
Want to que up a pvp match against me? You will not be able to get in even one DF against me...
Its SO easy to avoid
Oh, that means i was accidentally hit by some aoe or chain lightning... So i see hitting DC once before hitting the target will be the new trend to prevent effective healing. Along with the regen-no crit tenacity gear i will try to build a Runner cleric, with the same concept of perma-stealth TR, you can't hit me so my heals is still so great. Maybe the pvp changes isn't fixed and are subjected to change, still waiting for new stuff like elo system~~
Could be worse. I will have less problems in a 2 vs 1 against an opposing cleric with my Perfect Lightning. I have just disabled that cleric's usefulness by half with no effort whatsoever.
I see nothing wrong with TR's damage, the real problem about them is the endless stealth capabilities + 75% deflect severity. They already have high deflect, why should they reduce 75% of damage by it? They're as squishy as a CW or HR, but with ITC and stealth. Tenacity already lowered damage overall, Impact Shot is fine as it is on live considering there will be tenacity implemented.
And yes, I play as a CW currently, and Impact Shot is less frustrating thing in their entire kit. Devs fixed it's mistiming, now you can easily dodge in between being hit by Impact Shots.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
75% deflect severity because we are a melee class. you get to damage ppl from 40-80 yards away. of course we will have higher deflect severity what kind of stupid question is that. You also have more dodges than we do. Also, Most TRs do even have high deflect. On average a TR will run with 19-24% deflect which isn't something to complain about.
As for the stealth TRs, apparently that's what the devs want. They made the new paragon stealth based. Probably because of the low damage that stealth TRs do. Devs would rather have high defense (aka stealth) and low damage as opposed to High damage and low defense. Hence their explanation for making tenacity in the first place. They want fights to be longer
Lets see here what u want to do to the squishy low defense, low Armor Class, low hp MELEE class:
1) reduce deflect severity
2) reduce stealth ability
LOLOLOL
Ok fine but then buff my dps by 3 times what it is now
I see nothing wrong with TR's damage, the real problem about them is the endless stealth capabilities + 75% deflect severity. They already have high deflect, why should they reduce 75% of damage by it? They're as squishy as a CW or HR, but with ITC and stealth. Tenacity already lowered damage overall, Impact Shot is fine as it is on live considering there will be tenacity implemented.
And yes, I play as a CW currently, and Impact Shot is less frustrating thing in their entire kit. Devs fixed it's mistiming, now you can easily dodge in between being hit by Impact Shots.
The 75% deflection severity always bugged me. It should be 25%, not any higher since the class has godmode every 15 seconds already along with mini godmode (dodges) and is obviously wearing leather, not scale or plate. Another strange design flaw is the increased run speed in stealth. In every other mmo out there if a rogue uses stealth they become slower, not faster. It should be -50% run speed while being stealthed. The biggest TR design flaw to me is the fact, that they deal over the top damage while being visible. It should be decreased by -40-50% while being visible and only get to 100% from stealth. But yeah, judging the great developer feedback about how to "balance" GWF, i am quite sure they have already nice things planned for the rogues,too.
Tenacity in the case of TR is a good thing, not the best way to adjust balance but it is a start.
You don't understand the class to make those comments. Every single offensive ability?? (LOLOLOL)
We have 2 burst moves, Impact Shot and Lashing Blade. In fact, we have the most utility moves of any class with very few true damage dealing moves.
Lashing is one of the easiest moves in the game to avoid and has a 20 sec cooldown. Most TRs don't even use it. That leaves us with Impact Shot which is getting nerfed.
Understand that TRs are a burst class by design. We are supposed to be able to kill an enemy target more quickly than any other class.
Now I see impact shot hit for 1k sometimes on the test shard. How is that supposed to help me? These moves have too long of cooldowns for the low damage that they do. We use all our encounters on one single target (leaving us crippled if another comes shortly after due to the long cooldowns) and then look at the enemy hp and realize they still have 80% hp.....
This means we are forced use at-wills to do all of our damage. problem is that duelist furry has a long wind-up (unlike the other classes at-wills)
We cant prone enemies and knock them back like the other classes.
We are a soft melee class, we should be able to have burst moves...
If your going to take away the damage, at least give us some prone and knockback options like the other classes.
CWs and HRs can plant melee classes in place. HR can do so unfairly and we cant escape. Devs call this "a bug" yet they never fix it. Maybe in 2016 it will be fixed..
DCs, GFs, and GWFs can toss ppl around like cannon balls. GFs in particular can play ping pong with players. GWFs can prone you from 100% to 0 if their daily is up
TRs have???? our only CC is smoke and 90% of players don't even use it because its not good enough.
We are soft and a melee class, we deserve to have burst more than any class by far. Now we don't even have that
Being a TR has been reduced to hiding in stealth because we are so soft and doing low damage (all of which comes from at-will spaming)
If you are being proned down from 100% to 0% by GWF I suggest you acquire some gear with tenacity, at 20% tenacity the most geared P.vorpal GWF with an improved mark/3x SoS and 5xWM(and if you allowed him to achieve that then he deserves to kill you) can at the very best bring a TR down to about 45% but ONLY if the daily is up and EVERYTHING crits.
Secondly, you have stated yourself that TRs have the most utility moves and then you finish your post with "we deserve to have burst more than any class". So you want most utility and most damage? I'm pretty sure that is the reason for these changes and the reason why TRs have been overpowered since the beta.
Then you wrote "We are supposed to be able to kill an enemy target more quickly than any other class." Yes, burst classes like CWs have a much higher damage than others, and yes TRs damage is very high but another feature those burst classes have is extremely low defences, which does not apply to TRs. If you want more damage then I suggest changes to how quick stamina refills on a TR(currently feated its the quickest of all classes), changes to deflect severity, and reduction of stealth to 6 seconds and removal of ITC damage reduction. That would definitely balance things out.
You also want prones on your skills? Ever heard of Dazing strike? 2x quicker from stealth, longest CC out there, but wait it actually hits as hard as Frontline Surge after its damage got reduced by 25%. Ok, so let me get this straight? You want to have the quickest/highest burst because you "deserve it", you want to have utility and defence, you want to able to burst down CWs, DCs and tank spec GWFs alike and not be tossed by GFs who hit for nothing(lololol 5k bullrush) and have like under 10% crit chance on preview atm while a TR can jump around and eat him slowly.
Trololol
25%?
Actually, I agree TRs shouldn't be allowed to kill anything there should be a button that you click when u see a TR that automatically kills them. This is an easier solution and in line with your suggestions
I have a 16k sent with only a greater vorpal and I prone ppl from 100% to 0 ALL THE TIME on live. haven't tried it on test yet.
And yes, we are the low armor dps melee class, we are entitled to the most burst dps. everyone knows this. Who cares about utility when the moves themselves suck. Utility as in we have a move that will teleport us to enemies, but the damage is too low and is a waste of an encounter slot. Maybe 3-5% of TRs use it. We have another move that removes enemy armor but needs to be applied 5 times for max ArP and stays on for only seconds. It would be too hard to use in pvp and no TRs use it. Those are the sort of utility moves im talking about, we have them but none of them are very powerful and ultimately we only have 3 encounter slots so at max we would used one utility move.
Extremely low defenses doesn't apply to TRs? That's news to me...What made you think that?
Is it the low armor class? the low hp? the low damage resistance? the fact that none of our gear have regen?
You can reduce stealth length after you get it through your head that I don't even use stealth in combat. If I can I will start off in stealth but that's it, all stealth reduction would do is trivialize the class completely and make TRs become weak dagger wielding warriors. What your not seeming to understand is that stealth TR dps is pathetic. You need to slot shadow strike, invest in int, and invest heavily into recovery. All of that dramatically takes away from damage. On top of that, u cant use encounters only at-wills
If your character isn't strong enough to survive the nerfed 8 charge dagger throw then u need to find a new game.
Dazing strike is bugged and cant que anymore. Its the reason I forgot the move even existed.
Feating stamina means lowering dps significantly. Also, CWs have 3 dodges while HRs have a bugged root move and can hit from far away. Again, why should those classes have the same stamina regen?
Feating stamina means lowering dps significantly. Also, CWs have 3 dodges while HRs have a bugged root move and can hit from far away. Again, why should those classes have the same stamina regen?
Despite the fact that your class has an inbuilt function to get within range to burst Said Cw down, 75 % deflection Severity - It is extremely easy to stack high Deflect on TRs - Alysin Chains was running around with 41-42% awhile back.
Then you have ITC. Which not only gives you 100% deflection chance for 4 seconds (Oh look my damage does sweet F all to you in that 4 second window), but also makes you immune to CC - the ONLY other defence a CW has against any Melee Class.
Now, here is what else happens during that 4 second window - Usually, as an executioner, the Cw is getting crit for anwehere between 9-14k with Impact shot. On live, with 3 charges. Even Averaged at the lowest of 9k on live at the moment, that still only leaves my Cw with 4k Hp left from the 31k I started the fight with.
Now I am not saying that this happens all the time, because I have beaten my fair share of rogues, and only really struggle at the moment with the Perma Perfect bilethorns.
Please step down off your High horse. You claim that TRs have little to no survivability, but my Cw would love to have even half of what is available to you.
Stacking Deflect on a Cw can push you to max around 15% Deflect (Which lets be honest, is neglible), without having to sacrifice our defense slots which already are needed to Slot Hp for Deflect.
You think your TR is squishy? I can assure you, my Cw is currently 5 times more squishy purely from defensive stat layout and base defensive stats on gear.
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Comments
It does affect severity, much more harshly by affecting the whole of the damage.
VS 20% crit reduction
75% Severity = 40% (175*.8 = 140-100 = 40% as opposed to 75*.8 = 60%)
100% Severity = 60%
125% Severity = 80%
140% Severity = 92%
These are the new severity numbers after the previous 20% damage reduction is taken into account. If you combine the 2, that 2400 crit actually becomes 1536, a 36% reduction in damage, but still a 92% bonus to the base damage which was 800 instead of 1000.
The thing that surprises me here is how bad crit is without Vorpal now. GWFs will still get great use out of it because of Student of the Sword and Deep Gash, and still get a solid crit boost with 40%+ crit obtainable easily with a perfect Vorpal. Without that Vorpal though ...
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
That said nothing was mentioned of boons that heal. Will healing depression also affect boons that can randomly trigger and heal you? I am not saying it should or should not and I am simply asking this as a curious player.
Lmao, the Isssue is that why does the guy with the two handed sword become more tanky then the guy with the shield AND have the most burst damage? You can't argue that gwf is balanced in any way shape or form. Iron Vanguard added 15% or more damage to gwf in general, and allowed them to go with a crit build which is why you see the Sentinel downing everyone in one rotation (which would be fine IF) he also wasnt the most tanky player on the field
And also, CW is the hardest class on the pvp field to play, hands down. They needed this defense Buff for a LONG time
And in reference to TR. First off, our dodge animation isn't the quickest, that goes to HR and CW following after it (thats why you a lot of times when you think you hit the cw but the blink animation appears later) Next, our stamina bar surely isn't the quickest either, and with 2 dodge rolls, (3 if specced into stamina -but that gimps the class) its really a terrible thing to rely on to keep yourself healthy. With that being said, lets get to the topic of "full immunity" time. If we didnt have it, we'd die the minute a gwf,cw,gf,hr, another tr caught us with our ITC down. TR's have no Damage resistance worth anything. our only defense is stealth and ITC, BUT just wait! there's more! God forbid a cw, hr, or gwf finds the TR after ITC and restealthing, because he has a 1 rotation coming his way. Also, because of GWF's Takedown poor mechanics, If the gwf is good, they can sprint in the direction i was heading off into before stealthing AND without a RED TARGET ON SCREEN can mash the takedown button -and because it has a cone range- down the tr in any angle (even though I was stealtged), and even at times completely horizontal to the GWF - this forces me to make sure I have a full stamina bar coming out of stealth or I could kiss my health bar good bye.
So yes, lets do what you suggest, let gwfs run on a steriod rampage and also take out the last class that can contest a gwf and make it paper thin
THAT will certainly balance the game!
-Sicarius@Dersidius
Chocolate Stand
The reality is that a very large percentage of TRs don't like this play style. You need to understand that many of us don't even have the ability to restealth in combat and must go without taking damage for a very long time before we can re-stealth.
There is a reason I run around with over 40% deflect and its because I need to face tank players a lot of the time. Since these high burst builds are now dead with crit depression, and with the major nerf to Impact Shot (which most of the time I would only get 3, not 4, charges) my char as well as the rest of TRs will be forced to adopt a perma build.
On the test shard burst builds are worthless. When your opponent has 25-40k hp and your "burst encounters" hardly do any damage anymore (and have long cooldowns and limited charges) you realize the enemy still has 75% hp and your a squishy melee class that is forced to stay out of stealth and do all your damage with at-will spamming; but it takes many minutes just to kill one player, you realize the build is dead
I don't want to hear anymore about TRs coming out best with these changes. The class has been destroyed and now reduced to only one style of play
I could have lived with them reducing the charges to 3 maximum out of stealth, and I also could have lived with them taking away the very slight prone effect it has, but a 33% damage reduction in addition to significantly increased damage mitigation (so u will be on long cooldown while the enemy has most of their hp remaining) on top of the crit damage nerf... and the move is no longer worth using at all and will be replaced.
pvp is not going to be fun it will be spamming DF the whole entire time. That's basically how it was when I tested it out last time on the test shard
Dagger throw is now strictly for heal depression when u cant get close, and for a ranged option to dismount. The damage is too low now for only 8 charges ><
Yea i agree with what your saying, but impact shot is still better than lashing blade as it is on the preview right now.
But cloud of steel really need 12 charges if these changes go thru cause its really minor dmg.
Wouldnt mind COS 12 charges again IF they dropped the stealth run speed feat to 15% instead of 30% and also put a very small drain on at wills used in stealth on your stealth meter.
If you wanna hide in stealth fine, attack in stealth and it SLIGHTLY drains it faster than normal, however still viable. The impact shot nerf was because of the huge cheese against CWs, Id be with with just 2 charges at old dmg
I agree with this 100%. With all the cumulative changes to TR's over what seems like every patch, our burst dps is dwindling. Nothing is being given to off set these nerfs, no utilization or other options. Last 2 impact shots hit for peanuts now. If they are saying these are too powerful to hit from a safe distance, go ahead and nerf icy rays as well.
They are going to force all TRs into the most boring build of perma.
Fari enough, I was just brain storming too be honest. I barely PVE as it is.
You Good sir, are mistaken. All I do is PvP. For the exact reason you mentioned. PvE in this game is just not fun for me.
Less ***-umption.
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Why on earth does cryptic want it to be in affect 100% of the time combat is engaged?
IMO it would make a LOT more sense if it only happened under certain conditions
I.E:
Proned or Control affects
Combat Advantage damage Against you
Revival
Surrounded by 2 or more enemies(Goes back to incoming combat advantage damage, but more inclusive to middle fights at 2 with 5 people, regardless of them targeting you or not)
only under these circumstances do I believe you should recieve the 10 second incoming heals nerf
^ I completely agree. As a combat rogue, I am faced with the decision to go permastealth, or find a new game to enjoy. I've been keeping tabs on PTR and the issue doesn't seem to have been addressed between now and the date he posted this. So. I just hope to bump this is up. On PTR most competitive rogues I see are running stealth-hybrid to mostly stealth builds. If this is intended, then my feedback is this:
The addition of Critical Damage Resistance and Tenacity, if pushed to live as is, will hurt the TR build diversity and most TR will be forced to adapt a certain build in order to be viable. The influx in perma TR could create an uproar in the PvP community even worse than all class imbalance put together.
As a TR, I can agree to applying healing depression while stealthed, in lieu of improving the defense and executioner synergies of combat spec TRs out of stealth.
Literally nerf the regen stat to make it about 15% less effective.
Now make healing depression a 35% decrease instead of 50%.
We all know its the regen that they are trying to combat, this puts regen in the same camp (50% reduction) although makes things that shouldnt be nerfed as much as regen (like lifesteal. and healing spells) a little bit stronger.
Jazz,
If you heal someone in combat you should enter combat. Combat isnt what affects your healing though, being struck my an opponent is.....
What nerfs to TR burst damage were introduced in Shadowmantle? And yes, burst damage is nerfed because the devs DON'T WANT you to shoot the poor CW down in 1 rotation not even giving him a chance to react. Believe it or not other classes are also affected by tenacity and their skills hit for peanuts also. How about a 12k(down from ~26) Ice Knife with G.vorpal? or 200/hit at wills on GF? massive 4.5k(down from 12k) IBS crits on GWF.
The explanation is that TR was never meant to hit like a truck on EVERY single offensive ability they have. And 2-3 shooting other people wasn't exactly fun for other people, that's why it got changed.
TR nerf is over the top.
We have 2 burst moves, Impact Shot and Lashing Blade. In fact, we have the most utility moves of any class with very few true damage dealing moves.
Lashing is one of the easiest moves in the game to avoid and has a 20 sec cooldown. Most TRs don't even use it. That leaves us with Impact Shot which is getting nerfed.
Understand that TRs are a burst class by design. We are supposed to be able to kill an enemy target more quickly than any other class.
Now I see impact shot hit for 1k sometimes on the test shard. How is that supposed to help me? These moves have too long of cooldowns for the low damage that they do. We use all our encounters on one single target (leaving us crippled if another comes shortly after due to the long cooldowns) and then look at the enemy hp and realize they still have 80% hp.....
This means we are forced use at-wills to do all of our damage. problem is that duelist furry has a long wind-up (unlike the other classes at-wills)
We cant prone enemies and knock them back like the other classes.
We are a soft melee class, we should be able to have burst moves...
If your going to take away the damage, at least give us some prone and knockback options like the other classes.
CWs and HRs can plant melee classes in place. HR can do so unfairly and we cant escape. Devs call this "a bug" yet they never fix it. Maybe in 2016 it will be fixed..
DCs, GFs, and GWFs can toss ppl around like cannon balls. GFs in particular can play ping pong with players. GWFs can prone you from 100% to 0 if their daily is up
TRs have???? our only CC is smoke and 90% of players don't even use it because its not good enough.
We are soft and a melee class, we deserve to have burst more than any class by far. Now we don't even have that
Being a TR has been reduced to hiding in stealth because we are so soft and doing low damage (all of which comes from at-will spaming)
THis fights dont honestly show anything. It would help to see TR versus other classes with tenacity.
I agree some of the damage nerfs are too much for PVP, I would have liked to see impact have say 2 out of stealth charges instead of 3. With the DR from tenacity AND the crit impact that would have been enough.
I will say that if you play a CW, impact shot is the most broken thing out there. But versus other classes like GWF impact seems like nothing. Even on live it hardly does anything.
The issue isnt that TR deal too much damage in pvp, its that they can deal too much damage while never being seen aside from well timed ITC.
I really think the biggest thing they needed to fix was just put a SMALL drain on stealth when using at wills in stealth. Then nerf the run speed feat down to 10% from 30% BUT! have run speed apply both in and out of stealth, rather than just stealth. Then you just killed the perma build. Then imo, some of the other TR skills need a buff to make them more attractive at damage dealing.
One Idea I had was make Lashing blade stealth benefit NOT 100% crit, but a 50% CD reduction making it a much lower CD when used in stealth. This brings some nice damage back to the class. I could see shadow strike/itc/lashing being viable.
Heck Id even be in favor of having lashing get a damage bonus the lower the targets HP is or something as well... It should be a hard hitting ability.
The ONLY good CWs in pvp are the ones that focus on defensive abilities... period
Deflect, HP, and Regen in the current pvp system for CWs.
You cant sit here and defend CWs that have 23k hp and 2 defensive slots total (their choice) with COMPLETE AVOIDANCE of any defensive stats in their builds and then say that dps classes kill them too quickly.
OF COURSE WE KILL THEM TOO QUICKLY
but the problem is on their side, NOT ours
Duelist's Flurry doesn't require you to hit with the first 2 attacks even and you can move/jump between them, so it doesn't really have a long wind up.
TR's damage from At Wills is also quite amazing compared to that of other classes and the utility encounters and features help a lot to make it extremely effective (by making it difficult for an enemy to escape or for you to be killed).
Personally I play Scoundrel and Sly Flourish after applying a Duelist's Flurry Bleed is very damaging and gives you a lot of mobility, which is great when you aren't fighting a target 1 on 1. And considering TR isn't exactly a tank class, I don't see why there would be any complaints from being killed when focussed down by multiple enemies.
Courage Breaker is also ideal in a PvP situation and allows you to maximize the effects of Tenacity/Healing Depression with a target that barely damages you and cannot escape at all.
Its a decent move out of stealth but the problem is that you can no longer que it up while in stealth due to some sort of bug making it a bad move
And again, DF does have a long wind up. Its true the first 2 don't need to hit, however the first 2 very slow wind up attacks don't focus target players as they move around, because of this u can simply walk away from it.
Want to que up a pvp match against me? You will not be able to get in even one DF against me...
Its SO easy to avoid
Could be worse. I will have less problems in a 2 vs 1 against an opposing cleric with my Perfect Lightning. I have just disabled that cleric's usefulness by half with no effort whatsoever.
And yes, I play as a CW currently, and Impact Shot is less frustrating thing in their entire kit. Devs fixed it's mistiming, now you can easily dodge in between being hit by Impact Shots.
As for the stealth TRs, apparently that's what the devs want. They made the new paragon stealth based. Probably because of the low damage that stealth TRs do. Devs would rather have high defense (aka stealth) and low damage as opposed to High damage and low defense. Hence their explanation for making tenacity in the first place. They want fights to be longer
Lets see here what u want to do to the squishy low defense, low Armor Class, low hp MELEE class:
1) reduce deflect severity
2) reduce stealth ability
LOLOLOL
Ok fine but then buff my dps by 3 times what it is now
The 75% deflection severity always bugged me. It should be 25%, not any higher since the class has godmode every 15 seconds already along with mini godmode (dodges) and is obviously wearing leather, not scale or plate. Another strange design flaw is the increased run speed in stealth. In every other mmo out there if a rogue uses stealth they become slower, not faster. It should be -50% run speed while being stealthed. The biggest TR design flaw to me is the fact, that they deal over the top damage while being visible. It should be decreased by -40-50% while being visible and only get to 100% from stealth. But yeah, judging the great developer feedback about how to "balance" GWF, i am quite sure they have already nice things planned for the rogues,too.
Tenacity in the case of TR is a good thing, not the best way to adjust balance but it is a start.
If you are being proned down from 100% to 0% by GWF I suggest you acquire some gear with tenacity, at 20% tenacity the most geared P.vorpal GWF with an improved mark/3x SoS and 5xWM(and if you allowed him to achieve that then he deserves to kill you) can at the very best bring a TR down to about 45% but ONLY if the daily is up and EVERYTHING crits.
Secondly, you have stated yourself that TRs have the most utility moves and then you finish your post with "we deserve to have burst more than any class". So you want most utility and most damage? I'm pretty sure that is the reason for these changes and the reason why TRs have been overpowered since the beta.
Then you wrote "We are supposed to be able to kill an enemy target more quickly than any other class." Yes, burst classes like CWs have a much higher damage than others, and yes TRs damage is very high but another feature those burst classes have is extremely low defences, which does not apply to TRs. If you want more damage then I suggest changes to how quick stamina refills on a TR(currently feated its the quickest of all classes), changes to deflect severity, and reduction of stealth to 6 seconds and removal of ITC damage reduction. That would definitely balance things out.
You also want prones on your skills? Ever heard of Dazing strike? 2x quicker from stealth, longest CC out there, but wait it actually hits as hard as Frontline Surge after its damage got reduced by 25%. Ok, so let me get this straight? You want to have the quickest/highest burst because you "deserve it", you want to have utility and defence, you want to able to burst down CWs, DCs and tank spec GWFs alike and not be tossed by GFs who hit for nothing(lololol 5k bullrush) and have like under 10% crit chance on preview atm while a TR can jump around and eat him slowly.
Sounds balanced.
25%?
Actually, I agree TRs shouldn't be allowed to kill anything there should be a button that you click when u see a TR that automatically kills them. This is an easier solution and in line with your suggestions
I have a 16k sent with only a greater vorpal and I prone ppl from 100% to 0 ALL THE TIME on live. haven't tried it on test yet.
And yes, we are the low armor dps melee class, we are entitled to the most burst dps. everyone knows this. Who cares about utility when the moves themselves suck. Utility as in we have a move that will teleport us to enemies, but the damage is too low and is a waste of an encounter slot. Maybe 3-5% of TRs use it. We have another move that removes enemy armor but needs to be applied 5 times for max ArP and stays on for only seconds. It would be too hard to use in pvp and no TRs use it. Those are the sort of utility moves im talking about, we have them but none of them are very powerful and ultimately we only have 3 encounter slots so at max we would used one utility move.
Extremely low defenses doesn't apply to TRs? That's news to me...What made you think that?
Is it the low armor class? the low hp? the low damage resistance? the fact that none of our gear have regen?
You can reduce stealth length after you get it through your head that I don't even use stealth in combat. If I can I will start off in stealth but that's it, all stealth reduction would do is trivialize the class completely and make TRs become weak dagger wielding warriors. What your not seeming to understand is that stealth TR dps is pathetic. You need to slot shadow strike, invest in int, and invest heavily into recovery. All of that dramatically takes away from damage. On top of that, u cant use encounters only at-wills
If your character isn't strong enough to survive the nerfed 8 charge dagger throw then u need to find a new game.
Dazing strike is bugged and cant que anymore. Its the reason I forgot the move even existed.
Feating stamina means lowering dps significantly. Also, CWs have 3 dodges while HRs have a bugged root move and can hit from far away. Again, why should those classes have the same stamina regen?
If you want a facetanker with highest burst and be able to beat every other class, because ur entitled, I suggest you go look for another game
Despite the fact that your class has an inbuilt function to get within range to burst Said Cw down, 75 % deflection Severity - It is extremely easy to stack high Deflect on TRs - Alysin Chains was running around with 41-42% awhile back.
Then you have ITC. Which not only gives you 100% deflection chance for 4 seconds (Oh look my damage does sweet F all to you in that 4 second window), but also makes you immune to CC - the ONLY other defence a CW has against any Melee Class.
Now, here is what else happens during that 4 second window - Usually, as an executioner, the Cw is getting crit for anwehere between 9-14k with Impact shot. On live, with 3 charges. Even Averaged at the lowest of 9k on live at the moment, that still only leaves my Cw with 4k Hp left from the 31k I started the fight with.
Now I am not saying that this happens all the time, because I have beaten my fair share of rogues, and only really struggle at the moment with the Perma Perfect bilethorns.
Please step down off your High horse. You claim that TRs have little to no survivability, but my Cw would love to have even half of what is available to you.
Stacking Deflect on a Cw can push you to max around 15% Deflect (Which lets be honest, is neglible), without having to sacrifice our defense slots which already are needed to Slot Hp for Deflect.
You think your TR is squishy? I can assure you, my Cw is currently 5 times more squishy purely from defensive stat layout and base defensive stats on gear.
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>