Sweet control wizards will have even less control than the limited amount they had before turning them into even easier kills while guardian fighters and great weapon fighters are getting even more resistance so they will be able to ignore even more of the garbage damage I do in pvp. Oh and the clerics are getting screwed into the ground too so no one around to help.
Obviously introducing new stats on top of the stack of the ones that already exist makes total sense and isn't increasing the huge disparity between the geared and non geared at all.
This is a fantastic and ingenious way of ensuring that the only people joining pvp queues in 2 months will be the melee classes who have grinded out their gg coins and the people who already have orange artifacts. Even the rogues will turn up less often when they see their crit ar pen turn into smoke.
forgot to mention that pvp glory set for gwf also gives healing and is probably the best pvp setup right now.
patch = buff for gwf, nerf for cw/dc and the rest.
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Sweet control wizards will have even less control than the limited amount they had before turning them into even easier kills while guardian fighters and great weapon fighters are getting even more resistance so they will be able to ignore even more of the garbage damage I do in pvp. Oh and the clerics are getting screwed into the ground too so no one around to help.
Obviously introducing new stats on top of the stack of the ones that already exist makes total sense and isn't increasing the huge disparity between the geared and non geared at all.
This is a fantastic and ingenious way of ensuring that the only people joining pvp queues in 2 months will be the melee classes who have grinded out their gg coins and the people who already have orange artifacts. Even the rogues will turn up less often when they see their crit ar pen turn into smoke.
Love the sarcasm btw. Yep, they are turning PVP into a GF & GWF playground
I am not able to test on preview server, because no one is qeueing up. So I am going to give this based on a long discussion I had with a guy that tested yesterday.
1) PvP resist is additive with base damage reduction
This is not good, not good at all. Flat increases to damage resistance increase effective HPs exponentially. Combine a 20% damage reduction while reducing arpen by 13% with 944 tenacity is effectively a flat 33% damage reduction boost.
On preview with pvp gear, I have 52.78% damage reduction. Add 20% to that and I have 72.78% damage reduction. That is a 73% increase in my effective HPs. That is more than the 50% reduction in healing I will see, making me that much more tanky than on live.
This favors tanks with high DR much more than it does low damage resistance classes. A TR with 20% reduction going to 40% will only see a 33% increase in effective HPs.
Now take into account ArPen. On live, 30% ArPen would reduce me to 22.78% damage reduction and the TR with 20% to 0%. This is pretty common on live to have 25-30%. So on live, I would take exactly 22.78% less damage than the TR. On preview, against 30% ArPen, which is reduced to 17%, I will see a reduction from 72.78% to 55.78%. The TR with 20% base DR, 40% on preview, would be reduced to 23%. So on live, my HPs are 29.5% more effective than the TRs. On preview, my HPs are 74.1% more effective than the TRs. That is a huge gap, not to mention my healing even at half is now better than on live because my damage reduction makes it that much more effective.
Solution: Make the damage reduction multiplicative, ie calculated by % after base damage is already accounted for. This makes it equally effective for all levels of base damage reduction. If you are at 0% resistance, you will still see a 20% reduction. If you are at 50% damage reduction, you will still only see a 20% damage reduction instead of a 40% reduction.
2) Armor Penetration is a flat reduction
I detailed in this thread before I had confirmation why I thought this was not a good idea.
Well, as long as the guy I talked to knew what he was talking about, I have corroboration.
Solution: Make ArPen Resistance a % resistance up to 50-70%. That way it remains effective to use linearly and not too effective again in extreme amounts.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I can't get anyone to qeue on preview, so I posted my thoughts on the official feedback thread anyways after getting corroboration from a guy on preview.
I am not able to test on preview server, because no one is qeueing up. So I am going to give this based on a long discussion I had with a guy that tested yesterday.
1) PvP resist is additive with base damage reduction
This is not good, not good at all. Flat increases to damage resistance increase effective HPs exponentially. Combine a 20% damage reduction while reducing arpen by 13% with 944 tenacity is effectively a flat 33% damage reduction boost.
On preview with pvp gear, I have 52.78% damage reduction. Add 20% to that and I have 72.78% damage reduction. That is a 73% increase in my effective HPs. That is more than the 50% reduction in healing I will see, making me that much more tanky than on live.
This favors tanks with high DR much more than it does low damage resistance classes. A TR with 20% reduction going to 40% will only see a 33% increase in effective HPs.
Now take into account ArPen. On live, 30% ArPen would reduce me to 22.78% damage reduction and the TR with 20% to 0%. This is pretty common on live to have 25-30%. So on live, I would take exactly 22.78% less damage than the TR. On preview, against 30% ArPen, which is reduced to 17%, I will see a reduction from 72.78% to 55.78%. The TR with 20% base DR, 40% on preview, would be reduced to 23%. So on live, my HPs are 29.5% more effective than the TRs. On preview, my HPs are 74.1% more effective than the TRs. That is a huge gap, not to mention my healing even at half is now better than on live because my damage reduction makes it that much more effective.
Solution: Make the damage reduction multiplicative, ie calculated by % after base damage is already accounted for. This makes it equally effective for all levels of base damage reduction. If you are at 0% resistance, you will still see a 20% reduction. If you are at 50% damage reduction, you will still only see a 20% damage reduction instead of a 40% reduction.
2) Armor Penetration is a flat reduction
I detailed in this thread before I had confirmation why I thought this was not a good idea.
Well, as long as the guy I talked to knew what he was talking about, I have corroboration.
Solution: Make ArPen Resistance a % resistance up to 50-70%. That way it remains effective to use linearly and not too effective again in extreme amounts.
These calculations sound off to me....
The difference in preview (by your figures) should be 32%
(72 - 17) - (40 - 17) = 32
A 32% difference is appropriate for fighters; they're intended to have higher absorbs... the scale has not changed - from your figures.
Feedback
Every game that took this road has failed in delivering a good pvp.. you will never be able to solve anything by introducing this new stat because sets were never the problem to begin with. Your problem consists in enchants and jewelry(rings and artifacts)... i will tell you again that you dont solve problems by adding, u solve problems by reducing.
A good pvp experience needs two things imo:
1. Majority to be able to compete on equal terms (or as close as possible) as gear goes.
2. Ladders, separate for teams and solo.
Put the strategy into the pvp maps and not into gear.
Edit: Lifesteal and Regen should not be on the same item. Lifesteal is weak in pvp and that should be corrected as CC should beat Lifesteal, Regen should beat CC and Lifesteal should beat Regen. Tank gear should get regen, strikers lifesteal and controllers ofc CC and gives us the choice of what to choose
Sadly this game is getting casualized like most mmos. No one needs 10% def 10% cc resist and 10% krit dmg resistence in pvp. This buff + tenecity buff is only to protect casual players from getting stomped.
Sadly this game is getting casualized like most mmos. No one needs 10% def 10% cc resist and 10% krit dmg resistence in pvp. This buff + tenecity buff is only to protect casual players from getting stomped.
Indeed. When MMO's hit this philosophy, people begin to jump ship - imo. The data coming in from players testing on the preview server show already some great reservations about how long fights are lasting. CW's & Rangers being that tanky sounds ridiculous - unless you fancy a CW or ranger.
I personally don't play a cleric, but the broad sweeps against healing would make me quit if i did.
If the current state of tenacity plus innate get's officially released to live, I'll give it a chance, but I have a feeling it might be something to /sigh /quit over.
I'm tempted to test on the preview, just to see how bad it is.
Sadly this game is getting casualized like most mmos. No one needs 10% def 10% cc resist and 10% krit dmg resistence in pvp. This buff + tenecity buff is only to protect casual players from getting stomped.
Doubt it.
A matchmaking/ladder mechanic would be more adequate for this purpose.
The purpose for resilience/tenacity mechanisms is to make fights more tactical and tone down the huge PvE damage some classes have, to minimize the "I got jumped by X I'm dead" stuff. With tenacity going on, targets have the opportunity to respond since usually the initial burst will not kill them. You need huge damage for PvE cause there are bosses etc., but for PvP you fight 20-40K HP players, not mobs with huge HP pools, so damage should be adjusted and resilience is a good start.
There's still no "protection" for casuals, they will still die to PvPers just like before. 500-900 Tenacity won't help them, since PvPers will have it as well.
As I said, only way to protect casuals is to make sure they play against other casuals.
I agree about the ladder match making system... I've been proclaiming it in some other threads.
I don't agree with the burst damage issue. It isn't so much about 'I got jumped by x and am now dead' its about the players choice to spec that way in the first place. I say, if you want to run around as a glass cannon, then by all means.
People are still going to beg for more balance vs damage after tenacity.
The general perspective that seems lacking isn't so much to do with any inherent thing with the class, damage output, or survivability; its about an improper, or lack of, itemization; whether from a combination of current player ignorance/choice or also from a lack of stat choices on gear, to survive. Feats and ability choices are another factor, as well as skill.
Not all of the T1 T2 gear is made equal, and they are fairly limited with the number of optimization load-outs for pvp imo. What they should introduce are enchants to slot that give x resistance to x. If this were implemented though, it would probably require a re-itimzation of current enchants to match the quality of these enchants - so no one sees resists as the better option, rather,
subjective to the desired play-style. Adding more PVP - glory gear would also be a big help too - giving more choices of stats/ set bonuses.
In the end, a simpler, quicker fix would be a ladder system for pvp, imo.
The difference in preview (by your figures) should be 32%
(72 - 17) - (40 - 17) = 32
A 32% difference is appropriate for fighters; they're intended to have higher absorbs... the scale has not changed - from your figures.
I did the difference as a ratio of effective HPs, not a flat difference of reduction. Of course this is based on information from another person, since you cannot test anymore unless you organize 10 people to do it before you go on preview. So apparently the Tenacity thread is "dead" since we can no longer test it. Ridiculous.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
A matchmaking/ladder mechanic would be more adequate for this purpose.
The purpose for resilience/tenacity mechanisms is to make fights more tactical and tone down the huge PvE damage some classes have, to minimize the "I got jumped by X I'm dead" stuff. With tenacity going on, targets have the opportunity to respond since usually the initial burst will not kill them. You need huge damage for PvE cause there are bosses etc., but for PvP you fight 20-40K HP players, not mobs with huge HP pools, so damage should be adjusted and resilience is a good start.
There's still no "protection" for casuals, they will still die to PvPers just like before. 500-900 Tenacity won't help them, since PvPers will have it as well.
As I said, only way to protect casuals is to make sure they play against other casuals.
Are you kidding? xD There is no ''huge pvp dmg'' vs full equiped gfs , gwfs, dcs, and especially trs even hrs can be very tank + they got like 10 dodges.
I play a semi-perma Trickster Rogue, which is ALREADY lacking damage output in the live game.
I tested this out switched pbile for pvorp and the damage is just horrible.
It takes 3 TR's to take down 1 senti GWF, GF's have a way bigger range now as well, which results in chain stun rotations, making it so devs understand 'you will die before you can do anything'.
There is NO need to introduce this stat, its the worst way to 'balance' pvp.
It wouldv been WAAYYYYYY more simple if you would CAP every skill in pvp making GEARSCORE not deciding SKILL.
1600 regen cap 2000 armor penetration cap, things like that.
This has to be one of the most worst ideas so far, and if this will be introduced into the live game pvp will die out even more as it already is and a lot of people will quit.
Semi-perma does enough dmg, you just can't kill a top tier gwf that is all.
GF buff are well deserved, learn to use your dodge better instead of rely on your stealth-DF-ITC combo+ high recovery build. In live server only top tier GF can stalemate a top tier TR an hold a slim kill potential on one. 85% of the GF would die like fly to a Bilethorn TR. So the buff simply balance it out.
1600 regen cap is pretty stupid since in current server anything psss 1600 regen already give a 0.4:1 return if not lesser. So it only hurt those 2000+ regen build. Which means it only hit those player who has a gold Water(400 regen)
2000 armor pen are even more useless. Few people I know actually stack much over that, most of them at 2000-2500 depends on class. And armor pen already start to have DR at 2050. So that would not result in much of a dmg output lost regardless..
TR is pretty much a winner in this change, you are just gonna kill less that is all.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Are you kidding? xD There is no ''huge pvp dmg'' vs full equiped gfs , gwfs, dcs, and especially trs even hrs can be very tank + they got like 10 dodges.
There are other matches but highest end PM vs PM I see you left out the CW, good decision lol.
I still think that ladder/matchmaking is the way to go, instead of overall damage nerf Tenacity. Bad implementation is bad.
There are other matches but highest end PM vs PM I see you left out the CW, good decision lol.
I still think that ladder/matchmaking is the way to go, instead of overall damage nerf Tenacity. Bad implementation is bad.
If someone plays a lot, builds for pvp and got best in slot equip he is meant to bash casual players, thats how it should be. If you are a casual player and u dont like pvp in mmos u should simply not play pvp theres no advantages u get from playing pvp. Imo there should be a rated 2v2 arena and a extra Q for 5 man premades.
If someone plays a lot, builds for pvp and got best in slot equip he is meant to bash casual players, thats how it should be. If you are a casual player and u dont like pvp in mmos u should simply not play pvp theres no advantages u get from playing pvp. Imo there should be a rated 2v2 arena and a extra Q for 5 man premades.
I'm not sure how you're differentiating between a casual PVP-er and a casual PVE-er. Judging from your responses, an endgame PVE-er that doesn't build for PVP or play alot of PVP is a casual player. I'm fine with that, if you don't build for PVP then fine you can use the term casual to lump those people together. A serious PVE player can be a casual PVP player.
But in this game you can't be a "serious" PVP-er while being a casual PVE-er. The barrier to entry for high end PVP, in terms of BiS enchants, artifacts, and whatnot is incredibly high. A better constructed PVP system would allow a player to focus only on PVP and only casually engage in PVE. After all why should grinding AD on the PVE end be a requirement for engaging a serious PVP build?
Silly attitude. Casual players should be allowed to have fun in PvP too, without too high a risk of being eviscerated by people with far more experience and gear.
Mostly, better matchmaking would benefit competitive players who'd get better matches more often.
The only ones who would lose out would be the scrubs and griefers who get their jollies from beating on people with way less gear than they have themselves.
How should a causal player beat a exp pvp player? It should never happen. Plz I will give you soccer and I will use a pistol, let's do a fight shall we? You think you stand a chance? If you beat me with that soccer there is something wrong.
And causal player deserve to have fun but in current match making it is impossible. They will get owned by dedicated PVP players.
The amount of bad pvp player in this game are just scary, if they wanna enjoy they should learn to play better. Same thing if you suck you would not even do anything in a dungeon, you will be a pure pain in the *** for you whole team, you are ruining the gaming experience for your teammate.
If you suck at pvp and do not want to give effort feel free to gather 9 more people like this and do in house yourself, don't think it is that hard.
grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
edited January 2014
One option for tenacity is that you get a few (10) extra points if you have died and get out of the rest area in 3 seconds. You snooze, you lose.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
edited January 2014
PWE dudes, be extremely careful with the PvP system. Honestly, all these major changes (debuffs all around) aren't truly necessary. Remember this phrase for it has a DEEP rich meaning. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Right now the PvP mechanics are enjoyable, but some ADJUSTMENTS are needed. Notice I only said adjustments, not a rework. If you make these major changes, there's a very good chance you can ruin PvP. ONLY make SMALL adjustments at a time, starting with the GF buffs. I RARELY read anything about CWs, DCs, TRs needing buffs or debuffs power wise.
I'm typing all this on my phone this thread is not complete I will finish this later.
Thanks for trying to improve our pvp experience, but seriously this is not the way...
There are 2 main issues with pvp right now: first is imposible to kill sentinels, and the second is newbies who are killed to easily by good geared players (altough it's prety much their fault, but still).
As for GWFs I cant really see how reducing everyone damage is gonna help to deal with them. IMO you should do the same thing as you did with TRs (reduced lurker, amount of knives,...) which is nerf of powers/feats which make them op. As for newbies things gonna be even worse, since obtaining t2 pvp gear take some time, and until they get it, they will die as easily as now, but in addition they won't be able to kill anyone. I think you should put something like 2 baskets of players - One will que those under 100 matches won, and 2nd people who won at least 100 times.
I think you should try small steps first and see how it works instead of puting whole new complicated system which turn everything 180 degres. Even more when the game is out for some time and people spent a lot of time/money to make builds, which can turn usless after this...
I want to point out this is NOT Module 3 which was announced to have PVP updates. You might see matchmaking and other forms of PVP in Mod 3, this is merely a new stat on PVP gear in order to TRY and help balance SOME issues in PVP.
That said, I have written numerous times about this attempt to balance, one of my posts was one page back directly above yours you can see for yourself about my experience testing the new stat in PVP. Overall YES you present some of the issues in PVP.
1) Impossible to kill Classes (Sentis/Perma TRs/Turtle GFs)
- This stat doesnt fix this issue.
2) Unmatched games
- Obviously doesnt fix that either.
I think this stat CAN be used well but right now its TOO much DR and it doesnt attempt to fix any issues in PVP. I have a feeling these changes are IN LIGHT of some bigger things to come and they just decided to release this now instead of waiting for the rollout of Mod 3 to look at this.
I am HOPING here that Mod 3 will contain things like Arena PVP and alot more PVP gear sets as well as maybe even CTF type games as well... Maybe 10vs10 and they needed a way of reducing everyones damage without making the domination games too broken.... Who knows.
Well, I'd imagine any changes they make to the system will be well intended. That said given that they still haven't segregated pre-made groups from solo PVPers getting together in PUGs, any adjustments are going to wind up being fairly meaningless in the long run to a lot of players. At the end of the day when "Arena PVP" rolls around and everyone logs in, those with pre-made groups are just going to flat out eat the PUGs, leading to frustration and annoyance, which will continue to make PVP a chore that must be endured rather than enjoyed for a lot of people.
I don't believe in class balancing efforts. If you think one class is overpowered then you should roll an alt and make that class... You then have the same advantage they do. Trying to balance classes when there is both pvp and pve to consider is an endless thing to try to accomplish, noone will ever be happy. Just my opinion Nerf and Buff techniques hardly ever work..look at WoW for example... as soon as you nerf one class they complain, when you buff a different class, people complain. It is neverending.
I think the 'progressive' paradigm is grossly abused in MMO's. Like someone said, we simply do not need an overhaul in pvp, which is what tenacity and the innate bonuses will end up being.
The idea that we need to be progressively changing current mechanics, even if it were perfect, is near pathological. Leave it alone and add more content to 'alter the mechanics'. This way, people can get their cake and eat it too.
Giving players the choice to spec whatever way should be the focus. Player decision should be, and is, the 'proving grounds', not empirical judgements cast by the post-production devs.
Seems like when an MMO does something right (usually at release), the post-production clowns insert their mediocrity by way of borrowed, yet popular, thoughts from the forums. After all, it is the safer bet since it is just that to them, a gamble. They don't have a clue about what makes tasteful game mechanics, so, they just take the safest, job secure approach.
I sense that the current, main designers for neverwinter, have no part to play in these decisions, or have little bearing with the Grey Hair bosses.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
THese are really valid points and from my experience testing the changes on the PTR the DEVs would be VERY wise to take this into consideration. I have posted my comments INSIDE the quote in RED.
Your biggest concerns I THINK may be in Mod 3 and these are preface changes prior to the Mod. If they release new gear etc itll prob be in the expansion and this is a way to iron out changes before nailing down gear sets? Just my hopes....
That's why I asked what are the intentions behind this stat. If we would know what devs think is broken/dysfunctional in PvP, we might be able to offer much better feedback.
Cause as things are now, we have no idea why this stat was introduced as it is now, since it just blankets all damage down and that's about it.
I hope you are correct about future different game modes (such as deathmatch 2 vs 2+), where this stat would make a lot of sense (we don't want the burst class to destroy a squishy in 2 seconds and game over, we want the battles to last).
But in 5 vs 5 hold the point domination we have now... meh.
So please let us know devs, maybe in a nice, detailed developer blog, what Cryptic thinks about PvP and what they are trying to improve in it. Thanks.
You might want to work a bit on your reading comprehension. I don't think a "causal" (casual) player should beat, or should be able to, a more experienced, better-geared player. Which is why I think the matchmaking needs to be set up to separate them better. If people are generally matched to other people of their overall level of PvP competence (from skill/gear), everyone gets better matches.
That's not just a measure to protect casuals from getting beaten on, it's also a measure to avoid getting inexperienced players on your own team. I'm rather tired of getting teamed with 6k people who run in the wrong direction at start and quit at the first sign of trouble when I pug.
You shouldn't have post anything at the first place, the thing is Dev don't give a **** about your opinion of matchmaking. If they do we will be discussing the new matchmaking change instead of talking about how tenacity and regen/healing nerf.
Comments
patch = buff for gwf, nerf for cw/dc and the rest.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Love the sarcasm btw. Yep, they are turning PVP into a GF & GWF playground
I am not able to test on preview server, because no one is qeueing up. So I am going to give this based on a long discussion I had with a guy that tested yesterday.
1) PvP resist is additive with base damage reduction
This is not good, not good at all. Flat increases to damage resistance increase effective HPs exponentially. Combine a 20% damage reduction while reducing arpen by 13% with 944 tenacity is effectively a flat 33% damage reduction boost.
On preview with pvp gear, I have 52.78% damage reduction. Add 20% to that and I have 72.78% damage reduction. That is a 73% increase in my effective HPs. That is more than the 50% reduction in healing I will see, making me that much more tanky than on live.
This favors tanks with high DR much more than it does low damage resistance classes. A TR with 20% reduction going to 40% will only see a 33% increase in effective HPs.
Now take into account ArPen. On live, 30% ArPen would reduce me to 22.78% damage reduction and the TR with 20% to 0%. This is pretty common on live to have 25-30%. So on live, I would take exactly 22.78% less damage than the TR. On preview, against 30% ArPen, which is reduced to 17%, I will see a reduction from 72.78% to 55.78%. The TR with 20% base DR, 40% on preview, would be reduced to 23%. So on live, my HPs are 29.5% more effective than the TRs. On preview, my HPs are 74.1% more effective than the TRs. That is a huge gap, not to mention my healing even at half is now better than on live because my damage reduction makes it that much more effective.
Solution: Make the damage reduction multiplicative, ie calculated by % after base damage is already accounted for. This makes it equally effective for all levels of base damage reduction. If you are at 0% resistance, you will still see a 20% reduction. If you are at 50% damage reduction, you will still only see a 20% damage reduction instead of a 40% reduction.
2) Armor Penetration is a flat reduction
I detailed in this thread before I had confirmation why I thought this was not a good idea.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?583491-The-ArPen-Resistance-problem
Well, as long as the guy I talked to knew what he was talking about, I have corroboration.
Solution: Make ArPen Resistance a % resistance up to 50-70%. That way it remains effective to use linearly and not too effective again in extreme amounts.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?582751-Cryptic-OFFICIAL-Tenacity-Feedback-Thread&p=7045351#post7045351
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
These calculations sound off to me....
The difference in preview (by your figures) should be 32%
(72 - 17) - (40 - 17) = 32
A 32% difference is appropriate for fighters; they're intended to have higher absorbs... the scale has not changed - from your figures.
Every game that took this road has failed in delivering a good pvp.. you will never be able to solve anything by introducing this new stat because sets were never the problem to begin with. Your problem consists in enchants and jewelry(rings and artifacts)... i will tell you again that you dont solve problems by adding, u solve problems by reducing.
A good pvp experience needs two things imo:
1. Majority to be able to compete on equal terms (or as close as possible) as gear goes.
2. Ladders, separate for teams and solo.
Put the strategy into the pvp maps and not into gear.
Edit: Lifesteal and Regen should not be on the same item. Lifesteal is weak in pvp and that should be corrected as CC should beat Lifesteal, Regen should beat CC and Lifesteal should beat Regen. Tank gear should get regen, strikers lifesteal and controllers ofc CC and gives us the choice of what to choose
Indeed. When MMO's hit this philosophy, people begin to jump ship - imo. The data coming in from players testing on the preview server show already some great reservations about how long fights are lasting. CW's & Rangers being that tanky sounds ridiculous - unless you fancy a CW or ranger.
I personally don't play a cleric, but the broad sweeps against healing would make me quit if i did.
If the current state of tenacity plus innate get's officially released to live, I'll give it a chance, but I have a feeling it might be something to /sigh /quit over.
I'm tempted to test on the preview, just to see how bad it is.
Doubt it.
A matchmaking/ladder mechanic would be more adequate for this purpose.
The purpose for resilience/tenacity mechanisms is to make fights more tactical and tone down the huge PvE damage some classes have, to minimize the "I got jumped by X I'm dead" stuff. With tenacity going on, targets have the opportunity to respond since usually the initial burst will not kill them. You need huge damage for PvE cause there are bosses etc., but for PvP you fight 20-40K HP players, not mobs with huge HP pools, so damage should be adjusted and resilience is a good start.
There's still no "protection" for casuals, they will still die to PvPers just like before. 500-900 Tenacity won't help them, since PvPers will have it as well.
As I said, only way to protect casuals is to make sure they play against other casuals.
I don't agree with the burst damage issue. It isn't so much about 'I got jumped by x and am now dead' its about the players choice to spec that way in the first place. I say, if you want to run around as a glass cannon, then by all means.
People are still going to beg for more balance vs damage after tenacity.
The general perspective that seems lacking isn't so much to do with any inherent thing with the class, damage output, or survivability; its about an improper, or lack of, itemization; whether from a combination of current player ignorance/choice or also from a lack of stat choices on gear, to survive. Feats and ability choices are another factor, as well as skill.
Not all of the T1 T2 gear is made equal, and they are fairly limited with the number of optimization load-outs for pvp imo. What they should introduce are enchants to slot that give x resistance to x. If this were implemented though, it would probably require a re-itimzation of current enchants to match the quality of these enchants - so no one sees resists as the better option, rather,
subjective to the desired play-style. Adding more PVP - glory gear would also be a big help too - giving more choices of stats/ set bonuses.
In the end, a simpler, quicker fix would be a ladder system for pvp, imo.
I did the difference as a ratio of effective HPs, not a flat difference of reduction. Of course this is based on information from another person, since you cannot test anymore unless you organize 10 people to do it before you go on preview. So apparently the Tenacity thread is "dead" since we can no longer test it. Ridiculous.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Are you kidding? xD There is no ''huge pvp dmg'' vs full equiped gfs , gwfs, dcs, and especially trs even hrs can be very tank + they got like 10 dodges.
Semi-perma does enough dmg, you just can't kill a top tier gwf that is all.
GF buff are well deserved, learn to use your dodge better instead of rely on your stealth-DF-ITC combo+ high recovery build. In live server only top tier GF can stalemate a top tier TR an hold a slim kill potential on one. 85% of the GF would die like fly to a Bilethorn TR. So the buff simply balance it out.
1600 regen cap is pretty stupid since in current server anything psss 1600 regen already give a 0.4:1 return if not lesser. So it only hurt those 2000+ regen build. Which means it only hit those player who has a gold Water(400 regen)
2000 armor pen are even more useless. Few people I know actually stack much over that, most of them at 2000-2500 depends on class. And armor pen already start to have DR at 2050. So that would not result in much of a dmg output lost regardless..
TR is pretty much a winner in this change, you are just gonna kill less that is all.
There are other matches but highest end PM vs PM
I still think that ladder/matchmaking is the way to go, instead of overall damage nerf Tenacity. Bad implementation is bad.
If someone plays a lot, builds for pvp and got best in slot equip he is meant to bash casual players, thats how it should be. If you are a casual player and u dont like pvp in mmos u should simply not play pvp theres no advantages u get from playing pvp. Imo there should be a rated 2v2 arena and a extra Q for 5 man premades.
I'm not sure how you're differentiating between a casual PVP-er and a casual PVE-er. Judging from your responses, an endgame PVE-er that doesn't build for PVP or play alot of PVP is a casual player. I'm fine with that, if you don't build for PVP then fine you can use the term casual to lump those people together. A serious PVE player can be a casual PVP player.
But in this game you can't be a "serious" PVP-er while being a casual PVE-er. The barrier to entry for high end PVP, in terms of BiS enchants, artifacts, and whatnot is incredibly high. A better constructed PVP system would allow a player to focus only on PVP and only casually engage in PVE. After all why should grinding AD on the PVE end be a requirement for engaging a serious PVP build?
How should a causal player beat a exp pvp player? It should never happen. Plz I will give you soccer and I will use a pistol, let's do a fight shall we? You think you stand a chance? If you beat me with that soccer there is something wrong.
And causal player deserve to have fun but in current match making it is impossible. They will get owned by dedicated PVP players.
The amount of bad pvp player in this game are just scary, if they wanna enjoy they should learn to play better. Same thing if you suck you would not even do anything in a dungeon, you will be a pure pain in the *** for you whole team, you are ruining the gaming experience for your teammate.
If you suck at pvp and do not want to give effort feel free to gather 9 more people like this and do in house yourself, don't think it is that hard.
I'm typing all this on my phone this thread is not complete I will finish this later.
Yeah, keep your eyes on the road ;-)
I want to point out this is NOT Module 3 which was announced to have PVP updates. You might see matchmaking and other forms of PVP in Mod 3, this is merely a new stat on PVP gear in order to TRY and help balance SOME issues in PVP.
That said, I have written numerous times about this attempt to balance, one of my posts was one page back directly above yours you can see for yourself about my experience testing the new stat in PVP. Overall YES you present some of the issues in PVP.
1) Impossible to kill Classes (Sentis/Perma TRs/Turtle GFs)
- This stat doesnt fix this issue.
2) Unmatched games
- Obviously doesnt fix that either.
I think this stat CAN be used well but right now its TOO much DR and it doesnt attempt to fix any issues in PVP. I have a feeling these changes are IN LIGHT of some bigger things to come and they just decided to release this now instead of waiting for the rollout of Mod 3 to look at this.
I am HOPING here that Mod 3 will contain things like Arena PVP and alot more PVP gear sets as well as maybe even CTF type games as well... Maybe 10vs10 and they needed a way of reducing everyones damage without making the domination games too broken.... Who knows.
The idea that we need to be progressively changing current mechanics, even if it were perfect, is near pathological. Leave it alone and add more content to 'alter the mechanics'. This way, people can get their cake and eat it too.
Giving players the choice to spec whatever way should be the focus. Player decision should be, and is, the 'proving grounds', not empirical judgements cast by the post-production devs.
Seems like when an MMO does something right (usually at release), the post-production clowns insert their mediocrity by way of borrowed, yet popular, thoughts from the forums. After all, it is the safer bet since it is just that to them, a gamble. They don't have a clue about what makes tasteful game mechanics, so, they just take the safest, job secure approach.
I sense that the current, main designers for neverwinter, have no part to play in these decisions, or have little bearing with the Grey Hair bosses.
That's why I asked what are the intentions behind this stat. If we would know what devs think is broken/dysfunctional in PvP, we might be able to offer much better feedback.
Cause as things are now, we have no idea why this stat was introduced as it is now, since it just blankets all damage down and that's about it.
I hope you are correct about future different game modes (such as deathmatch 2 vs 2+), where this stat would make a lot of sense (we don't want the burst class to destroy a squishy in 2 seconds and game over, we want the battles to last).
But in 5 vs 5 hold the point domination we have now... meh.
So please let us know devs, maybe in a nice, detailed developer blog, what Cryptic thinks about PvP and what they are trying to improve in it. Thanks.
You shouldn't have post anything at the first place, the thing is Dev don't give a **** about your opinion of matchmaking. If they do we will be discussing the new matchmaking change instead of talking about how tenacity and regen/healing nerf.