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Tenacity Discussion Thread
j0shi82
Member Posts: 622 Arc User
I think it makes sense to have a general catch-all for everything related to the new feature that can't be posted in the official thread. Hopefully this helps keeping the Feedback thread clean and prevents countless new threads in other parts of the board.
I really would have liked a legit Ladder/ELO rating and corresponding matchmaking system to start off the PVP changes, but tweaking the system itself is also an option.
My concern also posted in the Feedback thread is that Tenacity greatly messes with the balancing. You want to wear PVP gear because of Tenacity, but stats like Life Steal, Regen, Crit, ArPen have become substantially worse on the gear while Power, Recovery, Defense, Deflect remain more or less unaffected.
GFs have all the right stats on PVP gear while TRs and others have three stats (Crit, ArPen, Life Steal) that have been reduced in effectiveness.
Also, as others have suggested, Tenacity might counter Healing Depression on some classes. Steamroller has provided some data on the GWF that indicates that the class should be able to crack 60% damage resistance without Armor Penetration Suppression and Crit Resistance. I think a GF should easily be able to reach even higher numbers.
Plus the devs still have to answer why someone only grinding for glory should stay in a losing effort. That's unsolved as of now.
I really would have liked a legit Ladder/ELO rating and corresponding matchmaking system to start off the PVP changes, but tweaking the system itself is also an option.
My concern also posted in the Feedback thread is that Tenacity greatly messes with the balancing. You want to wear PVP gear because of Tenacity, but stats like Life Steal, Regen, Crit, ArPen have become substantially worse on the gear while Power, Recovery, Defense, Deflect remain more or less unaffected.
GFs have all the right stats on PVP gear while TRs and others have three stats (Crit, ArPen, Life Steal) that have been reduced in effectiveness.
Also, as others have suggested, Tenacity might counter Healing Depression on some classes. Steamroller has provided some data on the GWF that indicates that the class should be able to crack 60% damage resistance without Armor Penetration Suppression and Crit Resistance. I think a GF should easily be able to reach even higher numbers.
Plus the devs still have to answer why someone only grinding for glory should stay in a losing effort. That's unsolved as of now.
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Comments
I think nothing has been rebalanced, but I don't own that enchantment.
Will make some tests with my CW later today on preview.
High gear score pvp is more defensive than it is offensive
Tenacity is a response to fresh 9k gs players getting owned and killed right away by 16k offensively based chars. This is not the right way to do things.. don't try to balance top gear and skill players against noobs
You guys are increasing defense way too much. 14k+ gs matches are much more fair and fun with an emphasis on defense already.
The bigger problem was that some chars were too tanky as opposed to hard hitting. Not the other way around. Quit responding to 11k CWs who have no investment into defense, deflect, or hp that cry about how a TR just killed them in 10 seconds.
Put noobs in a different tier.
Current changes will make pvp matches over an hour long
They literally killed that build for TRs. The only viable way to play now is perma stealth.
Also, perfect vorpal is now <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Bilethorn is now better with these changes
Don't go and make a class have 50% crit.... with LS, ArP, and Crit on the armor sets and then go and nerf those particular stats!!!
Now crit will go down 10%, and can now be resisted all together!!! In addition, when we do crit it will be significantly less. Great your making ArP less impactful so now every hit is way less. TRs, CWs, HRs like to stack 25%+ ArP! this hurts us the most... Most tanky classes hardly even use ArP gear.
If your going to make these changes than reduce the cooldown of burst moves by 50%. otherwise, we will use our impact shots and lashing and see that the enemy has 75% health left!! ><
After that we will just be auto attacking with an at will for the next 3 min trying to kill them. Such a horrible change
Class: Trickster Rogue
I play a semi-perma Trickster Rogue, which is ALREADY lacking damage output in the live game.
I tested this out switched pbile for pvorp and the damage is just horrible.
It takes 3 TR's to take down 1 senti GWF, GF's have a way bigger range now as well, which results in chain stun rotations, making it so devs understand 'you will die before you can do anything'.
There is NO need to introduce this stat, its the worst way to 'balance' pvp.
It wouldv been WAAYYYYYY more simple if you would CAP every skill in pvp making GEARSCORE not deciding SKILL.
1600 regen cap 2000 armor penetration cap, things like that.
This has to be one of the most worst ideas so far, and if this will be introduced into the live game pvp will die out even more as it already is and a lot of people will quit.
Are we sure the resistance for pvp is additive or multiplicative? It makes a pretty big difference since resistance gets more powerful the more of it you have. A flat additive would be pretty ridiculous relatively for tanks classes compared to non tank classes. Going from 50% mitigation to 70% is a much bigger reduction than going from 20% to 40%. The former reduces damage taken by 40% while the later only 25%.
My bet is he didn't test it, since he doesn't even mention that Sent GWFs actually have around 55-58% damage resistance, not 45%. The character sheet does not account for armor spec (+15% resistance to AC and defense stat) and Sentinel's Aegis (+20% to resistance form defense stat).
My bet is also that it would be multiplicative so that it would affect all classes the same.
Example Additive
55% reduction + 19% = 74%, reducing a 10K hit to 2600.
Example Multiplicative
55% reduction on 10K hit - 4500 damage, further reduced by 19% for a total of 3645% damage.
He is right about the double tap on crit damage though. 20% PvP resist/PvP crit resist + 15% arpen resistance could reduce crit damage by nearly half.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
What is the need for a pvp stat. Currently if you want to have a good pvp build, than you can gear yourself appropriately for pvp with the current stats in the game. You don't need another stat just for pvp!!!
PvP in this game is fantastic as it is. I love pvp in this game and I love this game in general because it does not have a pvp stat.
The only thing that is needed to improve pvp is more pvp maps and different games , such as capture the flag ( just an example )
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT ADD A PVP STAT.
Stop wasteing time on a PvP stat/gear and develop new matches or a better way to score the game! Maybe fix the issue with people leaving matches all time. Add a ranking system in so people who actually stick it out in a match can play with other people who actually stick it out also. It's so annoying when after 2min of a match 3 or 4 people leave!
The new changes gives ALL pvper 10% dmg resist, cc resist, and crit dmg resist, on top if you wear pvp gears, even at 4 pcs, you are getting 18% on dmg resist, cc resist, and crit dmg resist, AND 11% armpen supression. This alone will give anyone 28% resist to dmg, crit, and cc. Now my GWF has 43% dmg resist, + 20% more effective of my def stat which is not shown in the character sheet. So after this change, I dont even need unstoppable to get to 70-80% dmg resist. Who will be able to kill such a sentinel gwf? Furthermore, since def stats are not as important as before (due to the innate dmg resis + PVP gears), I can afford to go all out dps on armpen, crit, power and def reduction (i.e., plagfire). This will be funny if sentinels out dps a TR / CW in a pvp match. If you imagine this is a halfling gwf, wearing elven battle enchant that gives him 200% more resist to slow and immobility (is prone immobility? can someone clarify?), how do you kill this guy?
I think the devs are definitely to ambitious to throw in 1 stat to try to solve all the complaints we have in PVP, this new stat needs major tweak before it hits live server, otherwise it will generate even MORE complaints.
A multiplicative calculation would actually benefit those with higher resistances while an additive one would add the same flat % to anyone, no? 50% to 70% is a relative 40% increase, but an absolute 20% increase. The same as 20 to 40 where the relative increase would be 100%.
Am I mistaken?
But the superior question still remains the same anyhow: Doesn't the new DR overcompensate Healing Depression so that tankier builds are even harder to kill?
I'm going to log some PVP matches later today on live and preview with GG gear to get a solid impression on the actual numbers.
Going from 20% to 40% reduces your damage taken for example on 1000 damage from 800 to 600 damage, a 25% reduction in damage taken.
Going from 50% to 70% reduces your damage taken ont eh same 1000 from 500 to 300, a 40% reduction in damage taken.
Doing it multiplicatively,
20% = 80% damage taken *.8 (another 20%) = 64% damage taken. Thus a 800 damage hit, becomes a 640 damage hit, an exact 20% reduction damage.
50% = 50% damage taken *.2 = 40% damage taken. Thus a 500 damage hit is reduced to 400, an exact 20% reduction in damage.
It is a pretty important distinction. A flat additive greatly favors already tanky characters, especially once you add in ArPen resistance.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Feedback: Hi. This may be a wall of text, but please do read my 2 cents, devs. I'm currently feeling this dire need to be heard, which I usually do not get. There are currently a lot of uncalled for fixes that is coming with Tenacity, and these can actually be forgone simply by addressing the real roots of the problems we have right now for combat. So far I LOVE Healing Depression, as it seems to be an effective way to reduce the efficacy of defensive builds.
But I just find it strange that Tenacity is trying to address things that haven't been real issues in any PVP match. Armor Penetration Suppression and Resistance to Critical Hits will not fix anything but rather just introduce more problems such as tanks becoming much more tankier because of how burst damage is being suppressed too much. I saw a lot of videos of my friends testing this in the Preview shard and it's just silly, seeing those numbers on the screen. As far as I am aware, these new PVP changes were supposed to take care of the problem where players are currently playing too defensively, and that the aim for these changes is to reduce their efficacy. But sad to say, it seems Tenacity will simply contribute more to the problem rather than attempt to fix it. I believe some of our other concerned players have presented some rough data on the current state of DPS in PVP and it really isn't looking all too well.
DPS isn't the problem here, it has always been CC. The game is currently leaning towards CC far too much that it's unhealthy. In PVE a lot of parties are inclined to bring 2 - 3 CW's in one party and forgo every other class specifically because mobs have no resistance to a CW's control. This makes dungeon runs easier because no mobs can touch the CW's, and in turn, this placed GWF's and GF's in a bad spot for PVE for the longest time as they were designed to tank and/or not to perform well in single target damage, which is the current preference for most people in dungeon parties. For PVP, too much CC has always proved to be cancerous since Open Beta, and this is specifically why players are building more towards defensive builds; CC, gratuitous amounts of them. There is no fighting when you are held choked in the air, or lying face down on the pavement proned, just waiting to be 5-manned. This is a game where the first person who gets CC-ed, dies. The only way around this problem is to increase your effective pool of HP and stack on Regen and other defensive stats, just to be able to outlive the initial burst and duration of the CC. I find it strange that we have to go through so much lengths, building our characters towards something we should not be going for, just to be able to react against our opponents. I'm sure you guys will agree that it is simply not right for this to be happening. People are building defensively (just like me) as a reaction to the current existing meta for PVP, which is to control or attempt to not be controlled. You can't have both unless you are a GWF.
And in order to deal with the high bursts of damage, the real culprit here is actually something much more smaller and more precise; it's Vorpal Enchantments. A lot of DPS builds are currently relying on this particular enchantment for both PVE and PVP, forgoing most other enchantments because of the sheer reliability of it. It makes critical strikes stronger, and the higher your critical percentage, the better your chances of gaining rewards from it by netting high bursts of DPS. This has been problematic since Open Beta and it's most apparent for Trickster Rogues due to the amount of crit chance they have. It has been done for Soulforged and Stalwart Bulwark, so I'm pretty sure it's not that impossible to rework how Vorpal Works. Tweak it to something more in line with the other currently existing Weapon Enchantments. Why not just make the opponents Bleed upon a critical hit for a certain amount of percentage in weapon damage as compared to letting players milk burst damage out of it? This should retain its DPS capabilities, but it concentrates more on sustained and consistent damage rather than high bursts in crit.
TL;DR. My suggestions are the following.
Thank you for reading my great wall of text! Maybe people can see this even if they go out to space.
based on steamroller's numbers, the nerf to dps (in the form of dmg resist) is more than 50%, thus making healing (after healing depression) at minimum equal in effective compare to live server (if not MORE effective hehe).
Feedback:
I have played in many MMOs over the years dating back to 97' Ultima Online. In all those years the most memorable PVP has always been that which did not separate the "haves" and the "have nots". Translation: adding a stat to gear creates an even larger disparity than what we currently see in production. You might think that what you're doing is creating balance but you may actually be introducing the newly minted level 60 to an even worse experience in PVP. Currently, they coming up against players that are fully geared from months of PVP point/gear accumulation and get facerolled in less than a few seconds.
I believe the idea you have is sound, but the implementation is wrong. Look at World of Warcraft as an example of how Resilience stat destroyed the glory days of WOW's PVP. It created elitism and disparity among players. Segregation ensued and top pvpers refused to do anything outside of pre-mades with those that had the same "gear".
PVP should be about the player vs player - not player vs gear.
Instead of adding Tenacity to gear, make it an automatic debuff applied to all players that zone in to a pvp area. What you're trying to do is lower the overall damage output and effectiveness of healing and that's fine. However, there is no need to torture your development team in stat allocation of Tenacity when designing new gear and it lets players use the PVP gear they earn across other channels in PVE.
If you implement Tenacity to gear, you are at risk of making a player feel like he/she is wasting their time to earn rewards from either PVE or PVP because one won't be a good fit for the other and vice versa. Bonuses to sets already do that, but why add to it? I think Guild Wars 2 had the right idea of making certain skills have PVE abilities and completely different effects in PVP. If you want to truly change things for players in a positive way don't make those changes based around gear. Instead, I suggest you make them built-in to the game zones as debuffs that affect all or in the abilities that players use.
www.fusion-guild.org
Sir Howitzer - GF | Howitzer - HR
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Thx. Crunching numbers for too long I guess.
I think the math is off because it was a quick, first response to the matter. But the crits seems to come from field testing and others report similar numbers as well. So we might be closer to 40%.
I would agree with this. Take the full amount of resistance buffs with full tenacity and make it a debuff. You are also going to anger a lot of players that will have to entirely regear and reduce build diversity since everyone will be limited to the same base gear.
The other aspect not really mentioned is how this will affect the economy. Do you really think people spent as much money as they do to get gear just for pve?
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Give all players some additional Innate resistances against effects from players
This is a good idea. Many games have introduced PVP "buffers" that flat out reduce damage in pvp scenarios. This reduces effectiveness of crits as well which is good in my opinion. I would keep this in the game only in the PVP arena. Good job here.
Addition of Tenacity to PVP Gear, which gives the following bonuses
This gives me MAJOR concern... Just seems like another layer adding ontop of the first part. This significantly limits gear choices for most people with the current gear set options. If you guys are going the route of having a "PVP stat" you DESPERATELY need to release ATLEAST 1 more T1 and 1 more T2 PVP set. Ontop of that, I am worried about the overall effectiveness of this, I like the CC resist, The damage resist seems overkill from above, the ARP suppression seems good. resistance to critical hits, this should be a NEGATIVE crit CHANCE rather than damage lost and the damage lost from part 1 should be in less critical severity only not flat damage to crits. This may cause major issues here... I fear alot of people wont be happy.
HUGE SUGGESTION: ADD this stat to ALL gear sets, PVP/PVE sets and it will open up alot of gear choices and builds... That will be the only way to keep the communities together.
OVERALL: limits gear choices too much, tanky builds become too tanky (like Sents), CC resist is good.
Addition of Healing Depression
This really gives more cause for concern. I DONT think this should reduce ALL healing. This will make DCs much less useful than before... Healing is already hindered when healing themselves and you add another 50% to that? I really think this may be the wrong direction here. I think there are FAR easier way of nerfing regen builds. Either way, I dont think lifesteal should be in this as well as healing spells from a DC for instance.
Bug: Tenacity
There is a stat that is appearing ONLY on PvP gear called "Tenacity." It is forcing the community to put away their hard earned Tier2 gear and causing resentment with money and time spent on enchantments. Players are now being forced to carry around multiple sets of armor to par take in PvP or Dungeons, wasteing even more valuble bag/inventory space. In all the books I've read and card games I've played I've never seen an adventurer change out their armor when fighting a dragon and then fighting another person. At most they would instead use a practice/wooden weapon if harm was to be prevented.
Feedback: Tenacity
After playing with Tenacity I feel it is a poor attempt to address many problems with PvP at once. It is creating more problems than it will ever solve in the PvP environment. Limiting heals is just forcing many DC's into retirement. Yes I know there are the few DC's who spec for damage and claim to be good at it but the majority of people who play DC's play them because they like to heal people. Since there is no duel spec option in the game and re-specing costs money it is severely limiting DC's contributions in PvP.
What's the point about "more excitement = longer fights" anyway? Longevity is only only of many criterias that _can_ make a PVP match interesting. I've been in countless fights that were short and lopsided, but very intense throughout. And full of strategy btw.
I get that nowadays PVP is decided by defensive builds, but this whole system seems like too much of a change. Why not just depreciate the effects of Life Steal and Regen and giving everyone, independent from gear choice, a little bit more survivability? It's better to start small sometimes and let the system grow through feedback instead of developing a major change that is a complete overkill. Yeah, I'm also looking at you, Refining System!
I see the usage of DOT weapon enchants to counter the stealth of TR, works good right now on my GF
For reference, I exclusively play TRs, and have 3 at level 60, PvP being my primary focus in this game. That is not to say I know more than anyone else, it's just where my viewpoint is coming from. The current metagame for a TR focuses heavily on stacking health and regen, and running bilethorn to outlast the opponent and whittle them down, using bilethorn to counter the opponent's regeneration, and then the damage from your abilities to take away their health without having to worry as much about the opponent jumping around in circles to regenerate. Frankly, this already feels like it's departing from the DPS role. Adding a stat which further reduces damage dealt, even with a healing depression, feels like it's going in the wrong direction.
For example, in premade play, 1v1 is often something that ends up happening, contesting a node until you either kill your opponent, or one of your team mates has time to peel off of their point to come assist you against your opponent. A GWF is almost impossible for most classes to 1v1. It's hard for some classes to 2v1. The only way to kill one is with crowd control (in the form of prones, only) and high burst damage between the GWF's unstoppable procs. Adding a stat to reduce burst damage is going to complicate this even more. I understand the healing debuff is intended to help make bringing them down easier, but taking away some healing and then giving a stat that makes healing less required is not the best way to go about it.
Everyone likes the idea of tenacity
Everyone is skeptical of its mechanics
Everyone has their idea of how it should look better.
In the end I believe the only real fix might be something other than tenacity. If burst damage is becoming a growing issue and healing such a problem in pvp, then perhaps we might just consider giving the choice to the player: new enchants that can counter these problems - therefore letting the player choose. Customization, dare I say liberty, is better in a game than empirical tyranny.
Another thing to consider: a broad implementation affecting every class will only enhance the current (perceived) class imbalance. For example, yes a GWF will get their damage and self healing diminished, but at the same token, so will the other classes. A GWF with these new fixes, could end up sitting at 75% damage mitigation, and I'm not sure if that's the cap. So will it really change the outcome? I guess party dynamics might benefit from more more survivability, but the cost seems like less definition and more vanilla.
Why is it that some of the undertones I sense with these changes, really feel more like a vendetta against GWF's than it does pvp balance? Again, to those who would try to justify this, have you ever played a geared GWF, and fought equally geared, skilled, decent build classes? They can be very difficult.
Neverwinter has a lot of distinguishing facets about its' pvp: the combat can be fast or slow depending on factors usually traced back to player choices. Enhancing this model should be the focus, not fundamentally changing it (innate bonuses & tenacity). Granted it may be the choice of the player to equip tenacity gear, but its really a no brainer for pvp; if you don't have X amount, you're going to get punked. Not much choice there.
Obviously introducing new stats on top of the stack of the ones that already exist makes total sense and isn't increasing the huge disparity between the geared and non geared at all.
This is a fantastic and ingenious way of ensuring that the only people joining pvp queues in 2 months will be the melee classes who have grinded out their gg coins and the people who already have orange artifacts. Even the rogues will turn up less often when they see their crit ar pen turn into smoke.