Well, did some testing with @esteena and @stoxforum1.
We were able to explain some of the dmg outputs of DeepGash, but some of them we couldn't.
1) WAI, might be a tool tip bug
2) Dmg of deepgash could be based on X encounter power.
3) Some of the dmg output of deepgash was not based on (2)
4) If you add some other factors in, it does come close to the output but again we came up with different results like (2)
Theres something odd and wrong, thats all I can say atm.
The only thing equipped is a weapon and a dark rank 10.
I have 1375 power. This means that the skill should be 206.25.
Now deep gash above did 6 ticks at 450 or 2700 damage...
Show me where in ANY feats in GWF you can get 1309% damage increase? I think if you stack everything you would have less than a 100% increase...
ok we can see u have 12% from str also how many the gwf hit same dummie with student of sword as % damage works on dummies unlike arp it effects it also what feats did u have and what encounters got what damage
hell 3x student sword alone is 45% per gwf def 1 strongest dps buff you just don't notice it as much
if I get 3 gwf to hit dummie with student of sword and did lvl 1 at will on dummie you can make that even seem pretty broken can we have full feat list and buffs debuffs plz
also notice artifacts are still erqiped did u remove active pet bonus?
this is where it might be broken or might be intended encounters effect it depending on encounters % damage so on but it also could be said it should be that way as its the encounter that's hitting it at the time and making the bleed effect.
personally I feel its not broken as it makes gwf damage viable not game breaking
will also point out that % don't work like u said from what I hear it works more like this but not same ever just example 10.000 damage is example
+45% = 14500 + 30% 18850 +20% =22620
your example would be +95% maths =19500
more % and numbers your dealing with bigger % gets not just all made into 1 simple sum arp and def reduce go first crit severity go on last that's just to buffs for bleed maths to be done right we need all debuffs and buffs you have also encounters and feats you have to effect that encounter and if there more gwf hitting dummie we need there debuffs as well added in.
you can not do maths with half numbers missing
so as u see order its done and maths behind it matter a lot I am word blind so hopefully you can get what I am pointing out I am trying my best to explain it to you how it was explained to me if games maths is now flat % way u say it for first 100% we be losing dps
if my example is no longer right then arp is no longer 1 best stats as that comes off first I believe
my maths no where near perfect I just try pick simple numbers to explain it how it was explained to me and if it don't work like that and its flat now plz explain
1> dummy has no DR
2> deep gash is a critical hit, so your critical severity also increases its damage, as well vorpal.
3> strenght also increases its damage.
4> student of sword can make dummy negative def, which also increase its dps.
5>powerful challenge/temple of fallen also increases its dmg.
6> it is not broken, it is only being affected by everything that increases dps.
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2013
Even if this is a bug, I think it should stay in the game, as it allows the GWF class to perform adequately damage-wise. From my perspective, this must be the least OP move from the GWF arsenal of going immune, closing gaps and so on. As long as it makes the class more enjoyable to play without destroying it for others it's fine by me.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2013
That dummy clearly has some dmg resist as it only took 429 dmg from the 450 listed.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Indeed, if it is a bug, is not breaking the game, but came back projection: Take gwf in module 1. He was "what should be" with the detail that the wms "worked better than it should." Ie, the class the way it was made more than assumed in accordance with the supposed sense of balance between classes. Or is there something in gwf that should work fine, but does not work?
I swore that after irresponsibly destroy the slam, the deep gash was a "mea culpa" VERY late. What I do know is that ""The Destroyer is a torrent of unfettered rage and anger that deals a crushing amount of damage no foe is likely to survive."is a VERY irresponsible description.
past time for a clarification. I hope the players ask about it pleased, either on the functioning of the feat, either on the balance between classes.
6> it is not broken, it is only being affected by everything that increases dps.
It isn't broken, it is just a feat that gives a 25%-40% DPS boost... broken or not it's just OP and next in line to be nerfed.
Enjoy it untill it lasts.
After this, now give a HUGE boost also to the GF since it is the class that ATM:
doesn't have a role in any party (lack of CC immune mobs makes the thanker useless untill you can CC anything)
doesn't bring any utility/support (5% dmg boost from tactitian tree is the best we can do? A second DC would cover this 20 times better)
doesn't bring any DPS (lowest DPS both in AoE and Single target; even the new amazing path that was specifically designed to bring more dps to the class in fact lowers his dps).
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
Even if this is a bug, I think it should stay in the game, as it allows the GWF class to perform adequately damage-wise. From my perspective, this must be the least OP move from the GWF arsenal of going immune, closing gaps and so on. As long as it makes the class more enjoyable to play without destroying it for others it's fine by me.
It shouldn't, because as already pointed out earlier, it makes a third of your total damage depend on one feat. This will be fixed sooner or later, even if it takes 6 months again, and then you'll see how terrible your damage became after the update.
Unless this is their idea of fixing the class.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It shouldn't, because as already pointed out earlier, it makes a third of your total damage depend on one feat. This will be fixed sooner or later, even if it takes 6 months again, and then you'll see how terrible your damage became after the update.
Unless this is their idea of fixing the class.
I don't see why the bleed making 30% of damage is so wrong and bad.
So let's go over my math with actual debuffs/buffs and be sure to add in any I miss. I have 206.25 damage it should do. 75% crit severity, 12% damage increase from strength, my artifacts equipped add recovery, defense, regen, and life steal so they are irrelevant, there are no pets equipped, I was the only one hitting the dummy, there is no combat advantage, I have discipe of strength so factoring in my strength this should be roughly 7%, I'm 2/3 in devastating critical so 10% more crit severity, I do have student of the sword so 15% of the defense is 3% more damage, and I believe that's all that could add damage.
Now let's add that up real quick assuming it all counted, 206.25*1.85 (crit severity) = 381.56 *1.22 (strength bonus, disciple of the strength, and student of the sword) = 465.5
So again tell me how this is not broken? 465.5 is with all the debuffs I can find. Still far short of the 2700 damage it actually did.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Because GWFs now do more single target damage than TRs and TRs along with GFs have no place in this game.
TRs need some AoE buff of sorts, they should be able to push just as much damage as a CW/GWF in a dungeon run. Or ideally, dungeon design modified to allow melee classes to deal exclusive damage (mobs with anti-magic shield that needs to be broken by melee, immunities etc.).
I cannot say much about GFs. Sadly the one GF I used to run CN with seems to momentarily given up the GF for his HR. I do know that bizzy has a high damage GF though, how high, cannot tell.
Thing is, the solution is NOT to nerf the class that is finally performing well... aren't we all players? Don't you want you&other people to enjoy the game? Well nerfs are not fun.
So don't nerf, or "fix" "bugs", rather bring the other lacking classes up to par, so everybody enjoy themselves.
Because GWFs now do more single target damage than TRs and TRs along with GFs have no place in this game.
ok, 1 cw cause 3x the damage of a rogue + control is not a problem, the problem is gwf do more damage than the rogue in single target.
no one is concerned that he can do what the best class in the game, or at least make the best class in the game becomes balanced with the other (and this is what broke the game). the effort is to ensure that everyone is on the same dark hole, ensuring the crumb: 3 cw + one dps or tank.
assuming that this feat was made if thought, the others should also require a creative outlet to the problems of class, after all, you guys have invested time and / or money.
DPS matters less than being a support to a group.
Yes DPS needs to be comparable to CW and TR, but GWF needs to be able to improve the capabilities of a full party.
As an instigator spec, I grant both Combat Advantage with 2 of my encounter powers and reduce defenses for things that I crit.
GWF needs some game mechanic that it can bring to the fight. If the target cap of attacks could be improved from 5 to 10, then that might be one way to improve the class.
CW pulls them in, perhaps GWF can get a root or slow enhancement to all or most powers?
Come and get it in 4th ed. D&D was good because targets could get stuck against the fighter for atleast a round. Come and get it needs a 3s root.
It isn't broken, it is just a feat that gives a 25%-40% DPS boost... broken or not it's just OP and next in line to be nerfed.
Enjoy it untill it lasts.
After this, now give a HUGE boost also to the GF since it is the class that ATM:
doesn't have a role in any party (lack of CC immune mobs makes the thanker useless untill you can CC anything)
doesn't bring any utility/support (5% dmg boost from tactitian tree is the best we can do? A second DC would cover this 20 times better)
doesn't bring any DPS (lowest DPS both in AoE and Single target; even the new amazing path that was specifically designed to bring more dps to the class in fact lowers his dps).
seriously, where you get it from that it boosts dps in 40%? show me math please, first said it is responsible for 1/3 of dps, now again says it gives a 25~40% dps boost. please show it to me.
when i run dgs, each critical encounter gives me from 10~25k dmg, and each at will almost 4, 5 k on threatning rush. what kind of math is that that you use, do you attack the monster, crit for deep gash, and then wait deep gash to run off to attack again or what sir?
just for your information, i don't even run deep gash on my build for a long time, and i am still doing huge amounts of dps in dgs. and on pvp it is only usefull against low dr classes, and you still gotta hit and crit them, and it is still not a very high dps amount. why you blaming so much a feat that is still almost as no good, that others options still work better than it like great weapon focus, and the feat that leaves prone for extra second?
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
So let's go over my math with actual debuffs/buffs and be sure to add in any I miss. I have 206.25 damage it should do. 75% crit severity, 12% damage increase from strength, my artifacts equipped add recovery, defense, regen, and life steal so they are irrelevant, there are no pets equipped, I was the only one hitting the dummy, there is no combat advantage, I have discipe of strength so factoring in my strength this should be roughly 7%, I'm 2/3 in devastating critical so 10% more crit severity, I do have student of the sword so 15% of the defense is 3% more damage, and I believe that's all that could add damage.
Now let's add that up real quick assuming it all counted, 206.25*1.85 (crit severity) = 381.56 *1.22 (strength bonus, disciple of the strength, and student of the sword) = 465.5
So again tell me how this is not broken? 465.5 is with all the debuffs I can find. Still far short of the 2700 damage it actually did.
may be I am blind but that screenie you show us did not have bleed ticks for 3k+ looked more like 450 per tick to me
but might missed them.
no encounter used for bleed link plz because maths for them is different your maths are improving small amount and I will say it again if it is bug its not broken are dps is not breaking the game its just viable unless you think no class but your cw should be viable if that's case soon you will only have cw in the game and all other class's will be useless its close to that as is you should want game to be more fair fun for more people not less
will also say good tr can still out dps gwf specialy in single target.
if bleed is broken becase amount dps it dose so is cw so dlete hole cw class to nerf it then tr gf and gwf and hr even dc would all get groups easier. so lets nerf cw personally I have t2 cw and there much stronger than gwf I just like gwf style of play more I also have tr and there still g8 only class I really pitty at min and there still good good gear is gf because pure tanks are not needed much with how game plays
will also add 30% my dps in run with stox was not bleeds from what act says it was more like 18% but that don't matter becase mobs where melting and if we had less dps in group it would be higher amount
stox maybe you should start complain about how none cw class can still use weapons and items. that would reduce there dps more
or u could start asking for buffs for stox only because way I see it your not happy unless cw is only viable class
tbh may be it just stox that needs a buff not cw to upo his dps to 50x every one els then rest us can have viable game where all can have fun
seriously, where you get it from that it boosts dps in 40%? show me math please, first said it is responsible for 1/3 of dps, now again says it gives a 25~40% dps boost. please show it to me.
if we make gwf just use at wills and have 1 at will attack every few sec so on and really aim for it I bet u we can get that bleed % even higher
bleed icon says
your Critical strikes cause your target to bleed taking 3/6/9/12/15% of your power as damage over 5 seconds
it don't say if damage is derived into that time or not and it don't say if its per 1 second or not to me just says there bleeding for over 5 seconds 1-2-3-4-5 is over 5 seconds as well
but that could be me being word blind and all but to me many icons are not very clear at all and some even have hidden cds and so on don't make them broken or is every ability with hidden cd that's not listed broken?
we can go into list of icons over neverwinter to that don't do what they have listed at all if you like this ability bleeds and bleeds for 5 sec and is based on power that's pretty clear for neverwinter icon.
also icon don't say if it stacks how it stacks if its useable once full moon once every sec we can have never ending list how icons fail this is no reason to say its a bug
only thing that's going on here is cw not being happy that more ppl are becoming viable my dps is not even normal gwf dps from what most ppl say there having hard time with gwf still its just more fair and more viable why would any one in right mind have an issue with this.
I don't even have issue with cw still having high dps than gwf or if not I don't even have issue with cw having best cc in game. I am only happy my class is viable and can have uses I go for dps build with some tankie survability not even like we competing for same dungeon spots.
only thing that will happen if you nerf gwf is I will put my perfect vorpal my r7- r9 so on on my cw who has full hv all ready or might go hr because if they nerf this its hopeless for us all.
none us will ever be viable vs a cw and I will gain dps and cc and have a lot less fun.
I will also be happy if they chose to buff any other class to bring it more in line with cw gwf if its needed for that class because every one should be viable and fun to play any thing that brings us closer to this is a good thing not a bad one
it takes 0 skill to cookie cutter cw build hell u can google stox build 0 skill and takes pretty much no skill to press few keys so every one can be same and if not its hopeless for them this is not way it should be
ok, 1 cw cause 3x the damage of a rogue + control is not a problem, the problem is gwf do more damage than the rogue in single target.
no one is concerned that he can do what the best class in the game, or at least make the best class in the game becomes balanced with the other (and this is what broke the game). the effort is to ensure that everyone is on the same dark hole, ensuring the crumb: 3 cw + one dps or tank.
assuming that this feat was made if thought, the others should also require a creative outlet to the problems of class, after all, you guys have invested time and / or money.
yep gwf can have dps like cw now but still cw do have all cc and buffs and debuffs and for him is problem gwf but everyone makes 3xcw teams...this is some cw who is mad since gwf can have good dps as him now
if we make gwf just use at wills and have 1 at will attack every few sec so on and really aim for it I bet u we can get that bleed % even higher
bleed icon says
your Critical strikes cause your target to bleed taking 3/6/9/12/15% of your power as damage over 5 seconds
it don't say if damage is derived into that time or not and it don't say if its per 1 second or not to me just says there bleeding for over 5 seconds 1-2-3-4-5 is over 5 seconds as well
but that could be me being word blind and all but to me many icons are not very clear at all and some even have hidden cds and so on don't make them broken or is every ability with hidden cd that's not listed broken?
we can go into list of icons over neverwinter to that don't do what they have listed at all if you like this ability bleeds and bleeds for 5 sec and is based on power that's pretty clear for neverwinter icon.
also icon don't say if it stacks how it stacks if its useable once full moon once every sec we can have never ending list how icons fail this is no reason to say its a bug
only thing that's going on here is cw not being happy that more ppl are becoming viable my dps is not even normal gwf dps from what most ppl say there having hard time with gwf still its just more fair and more viable why would any one in right mind have an issue with this.
I don't even have issue with cw still having high dps than gwf or if not I don't even have issue with cw having best cc in game. I am only happy my class is viable and can have uses I go for dps build with some tankie survability not even like we competing for same dungeon spots.
only thing that will happen if you nerf gwf is I will put my perfect vorpal my r7- r9 so on on my cw who has full hv all ready or might go hr because if they nerf this its hopeless for us all.
none us will ever be viable vs a cw and I will gain dps and cc and have a lot less fun.
I will also be happy if they chose to buff any other class to bring it more in line with cw gwf if its needed for that class because every one should be viable and fun to play any thing that brings us closer to this is a good thing not a bad one
it takes 0 skill to cookie cutter cw build hell u can google stox build 0 skill and takes pretty much no skill to press few keys so every one can be same and if not its hopeless for them this is not way it should be
Wow, you must really hate me. I said nothing but good things about you. I never said I had a problem with GWFs, I simply said that GWFs will not outdamage a CW, and took the challenge your friend made to DPS race. I'm sorry that even with you broken skill that you still lost. I didn't say anything bad about GWFs or you guys especially!
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2013
Let's not forget gelflin is a SENTINEL, without even a DPS focus, it's a hybrid tank/dps made to perform in PvE as well as PvP when necessary (why else would he be a halfling...). He also has lower rank enchants.
Also something not mentioned is the fact that CWs can either help, or interfere with the GWF ability to dish damage. For example helping would be a sing that brings mobs together, or an EF/Mastery that does the same thing, both would help the GWF. Oppressive Force and even Shard might lower GWF DPS. But in a contest, I suppose anyone use their most damaging skills, regardless if they mess the damage of the opponents.
So IMO, stox winning over gelflin is all natural, because of better gear and full PvE DPS build focus, and spells that make things harder for the GWF opponent.
However... there's another GWF out there that might do approximatively double the damage gelflin does And I believe he has a PvE DPS focus with BiS gear as well. I have serious doubts however he's into "contests" about who is king of what.
The point of all this topic was that GWFs are far from underperforming, as people claim. GWFs are awesome, even without the bleed. I think this point was proven again and again.
Wow, you must really hate me. I said nothing but good things about you. I never said I had a problem with GWFs, I simply said that GWFs will not outdamage a CW, and took the challenge your friend made to DPS race. I'm sorry that even with you broken skill that you still lost. I didn't say anything bad about GWFs or you guys especially!
just annoying that ppl crying bug when feat is acting with in what tool tip says and it is not breaking the game so no one should be sad about that yet people cry bug when they can not even know if it is yet as no dev has said no one can know its also not game breaking.
you keep posting to try prove its bug with out full maths or any thing when you look at it my way read icon my way it works fine yes its broken if you read it your way but that's not up to us to chose until dev says its bug i will say its not becase its not breaking any thing
sorry if I came of strong I do that some times why I do not post much i even have to edit posts a lot to fix typos so i know i don't get all typos but i do try and its very blunt when i type and some times comes out bit wrong i am very sorry for that.
I personally don't believe any class in this game reqs much skill as its like 6 buttons or so so even my gwf to me don't take much skill some one could cookie cutter me tommow done right and be as good.
hell some my other class's are cookie cutter made them to learn about other t2 60 class's mainly.
I can not w8 to see what things are added to neverwinter to give more in depth take higher skill set and make it even more fun.
I did not mean your bad player but at end game gear level specially with full gorup this game is not very hard.
did think you would think same did not mean any thing about you as your very good cw just don't think this game is that challenging yet at high levels of gear.
there is many game breaking bugs that a lot these people have never posted about and we know these bugs yet there picking on bleeds that we do not know are bug or not it might be depends what devs wanted but as it makes a class viable its good to me
if they nerf me tommow I will not mind will not effect me much as I can pretty much pick any of the class's and have same gear level.
as some people in this thread know i have a lot level 60 chars i build them for pvp and to help me learn in and out of them for pvp premade (i am not pvping vs pugs normally as there is no real match making and its unfair) point trying make is class is fun viable in pve that was all.
i also do think it don't matter if its 95% some ones dps from skill if it makes them viable and dose not break game people should not have issue if we all get are dps from same places we are all same class no matter how you label it.
also stox i found race fun and as you know i used my normal build as i did not start leaping battlefurying to mobs and i did not spec dps i did not expect to win vs good player and never said i would win was just to show we viable and i even asked u to post out come at end not caring i lost.
if i really did care i would used full pots like i do normally when i run swaped to a dps spec and used leaps and battle fury to races to mobs fast but that was not the aim of test
to me was just to show it is viable and has place in pve yes i am pvp/carrie build so on but even full dps so on think your still win in melting match but gwf are viable and i will show any one who thinks not that it is.
X feat deals Y damage with a percentage of 15% of your Z stat <--- Tool tip
X feat deals Y damage with a percentage of 1200% damage increase <--- what actually happens
Conclusion:
1- The feat tool tip isn't accurate (which is kind of un realistic, because no feat should be 30% of your DPS).
OR
2- The feat isn't working as intended/bugged.
Now about the CW cs GWF bull <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, i have out DPSed a large margin of CWs on my TR on a full run. Does that mean that i'm a great super TR? no.
It means that these CWs were either:
1- Using wrong rotation.
2- Using wrong spec.
3- 1&2
4- Spec'ed for control, not DPS.
A good CW can out DPS any GWF/TR/GF. It was already proven that with screenies but people still argue.
X feat deals Y damage with a percentage of 15% of your Z stat <--- Tool tip
X feat deals Y damage with a percentage of 1200% damage increase <--- what actually happens
Conclusion:
1- The feat tool tip isn't accurate (which is kind of un realistic, because no feat should be 30% of your DPS).
OR
2- The feat isn't working as intended/bugged.
Now about the CW cs GWF bull <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, i have out DPSed a large margin of CWs on my TR on a full run. Does that mean that i'm a great super TR? no.
It means that these CWs were either:
1- Using wrong rotation.
2- Using wrong spec.
3- 1&2
4- Spec'ed for control, not DPS.
A good CW can out DPS any GWF/TR/GF. It was already proven that with screenies but people still argue.
A bad CW is a bad CW.
will post it like this as don't want to offend
1- The feat tool tip isn't accurate (which is kind of un realistic, because no feat should be 30% of your DPS).
Tool tip says your Critical strikes cause your target to bleed taking 3/6/9/12/15% of your power as damage over 5 seconds
it don't say if damage is derived into that time or not and it don't say if its 450 per 1 second or not to me just says there bleeding for over 5 seconds 0-1-2-3-4-5 is over 5 seconds as well so 450 6 times =2700
where is it said what % damage a feat should be can we have your % cap on this so i can log in and brake it on act with any class pretty much all have to do is pick right feat like it just hit what ever with that ability sure you can get a lot feats to do it if we try and use 1 feat or ability to break act.
in that run with stox was like 18% becase stuff was melting ask stox how many mobs even elites where stood up for 5 seconds most died with in 1-2.
2- The feat isn't working as intended/bugged.
Not many tool tips are clear in never winter we don't say there bug because that normally
Now about the CW cs GWF bull <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, i have out DPSed a large margin of CWs on my TR on a full run. Does that mean that i'm a great super TR? no.
It means that these CWs were either:
1- Using wrong rotation.
2- Using wrong spec.
3- 1&2
4- Spec'ed for control, not DPS.
A good CW can out DPS any GWF/TR/GF. It already proven that with screenies but people still argue.
A bad CW is a bad CW.
Just because you out dps some one don't make them bad there very many factors you did not take into account personal i don't think cw should ever be judge or any one should be judged by dps.
yet i know 1 gwf with about double my dps i am just bad gwf maybe as i was not right spec and i did not plan to be as i don't like just being dps and just wanted show its viable to a lot us dps is not only thing that makes a class viable.
i have 25% more threat on single target so can tank a lot stuff even when out dpsed as long not to big amount and many other abilitys that help make me viable like i was not sqishie
i am not saying this is better than dps but i think there all viable ability's and useful ones
it don't say if damage is derived into that time or not and it don't say if its 450 per 1 second or not to me just says there bleeding for over 5 seconds 0-1-2-3-4-5 is over 5 seconds as well so 450 6 times =2700
2- The feat isn't working as intended/bugged.
Not many tool tips are clear in never winter we don't say there bug because that normally
And that's exactly why i mentioned the two options. It could be or could be not a bug, but tool tip says something and the actual numbers says something else. Only a developer can aswer that, but for the time being, it is CLEARLY not working as what the tool tip says no matter how much you try to twist it around.
Just because you out dps some one don't make them bad there very many factors you did not take into account personal i don't think cw should ever be judge or any one should be judged by dps.
yet i know gwf with about double my dps i am just bad gwf maybe as i was not right spec and i did not plan to be as i don't like just being dps and just wanted show its viable
I think i wasn't clear enough, my bad.
What i meant was, if a PvE CW who is speced for control and DPS get out DPSed by another class it means that this CW is bad/not properly playing.
But incase of a CW who is specced for control only and is dependent on another class to deal the damage, then that's another story.
This is why i mentioned all the situations in points 1,2,3,4.
I'm not sure what factors are you talking about. If you and the CW are in the same party, same dungein, fighting same mobs, with same debuffs and with same buffs then i don't see any differences or advantages/disadvantages for either of the classes, besides the class's abilities themselves.
1- The feat tool tip isn't accurate (which is kind of un realistic, because no feat should be 30% of your DPS).
OR
2- The feat isn't working as intended/bugged."
in fact, an alternative not exclude the other.
By theory I should increase the damage of my old bleed in at least 148% of it was according to the patch notes (+ damage bonus).
the deep gash appears to be counting also the percentages given on the calculations of each power individually, and that is done on the amount of attributes (power A = x% on strength / damage bonus. Power B = y% on strength / damage bonus.).
well, not 148% or 924 098% (depending on power) can be deduced from the description of the feat.
ps:I'm not remembering the old bleed had 6 sticks (one simultaneous to critical strike). if it is natural that the values are vanish. what would be interesting would be to find someone to cure restoring strike also increased.
Comments
well, gwf was designed to be less than the cw at all ...
OK, I'll play until "fixed feat. I think that the game" has given what he had to give. certain things do not go changing it seems.
We were able to explain some of the dmg outputs of DeepGash, but some of them we couldn't.
1) WAI, might be a tool tip bug
2) Dmg of deepgash could be based on X encounter power.
3) Some of the dmg output of deepgash was not based on (2)
4) If you add some other factors in, it does come close to the output but again we came up with different results like (2)
Theres something odd and wrong, thats all I can say atm.
PvP GWF - BizzyBedBug
PvE GF (salvaged)
PvE TR (salvaged)
GWF PvP/CW PvE @ http://www.twitch.tv/bizzyplusplus/
So that explain how my GF get drop from 100% to 40% ( 35000 max HP so 60% as in 21000 Dmg from one rotation.)
ok we can see u have 12% from str also how many the gwf hit same dummie with student of sword as % damage works on dummies unlike arp it effects it also what feats did u have and what encounters got what damage
hell 3x student sword alone is 45% per gwf def 1 strongest dps buff you just don't notice it as much
if I get 3 gwf to hit dummie with student of sword and did lvl 1 at will on dummie you can make that even seem pretty broken can we have full feat list and buffs debuffs plz
also notice artifacts are still erqiped did u remove active pet bonus?
this is where it might be broken or might be intended encounters effect it depending on encounters % damage so on but it also could be said it should be that way as its the encounter that's hitting it at the time and making the bleed effect.
personally I feel its not broken as it makes gwf damage viable not game breaking
will also point out that % don't work like u said from what I hear it works more like this but not same ever just example 10.000 damage is example
+45% = 14500 + 30% 18850 +20% =22620
your example would be +95% maths =19500
more % and numbers your dealing with bigger % gets not just all made into 1 simple sum arp and def reduce go first crit severity go on last that's just to buffs for bleed maths to be done right we need all debuffs and buffs you have also encounters and feats you have to effect that encounter and if there more gwf hitting dummie we need there debuffs as well added in.
you can not do maths with half numbers missing
so as u see order its done and maths behind it matter a lot I am word blind so hopefully you can get what I am pointing out I am trying my best to explain it to you how it was explained to me if games maths is now flat % way u say it for first 100% we be losing dps
if my example is no longer right then arp is no longer 1 best stats as that comes off first I believe
my maths no where near perfect I just try pick simple numbers to explain it how it was explained to me and if it don't work like that and its flat now plz explain
2> deep gash is a critical hit, so your critical severity also increases its damage, as well vorpal.
3> strenght also increases its damage.
4> student of sword can make dummy negative def, which also increase its dps.
5>powerful challenge/temple of fallen also increases its dmg.
6> it is not broken, it is only being affected by everything that increases dps.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
It's the other way around? +21 damage given by some debuff?
I swore that after irresponsibly destroy the slam, the deep gash was a "mea culpa" VERY late. What I do know is that ""The Destroyer is a torrent of unfettered rage and anger that deals a crushing amount of damage no foe is likely to survive."is a VERY irresponsible description.
past time for a clarification. I hope the players ask about it pleased, either on the functioning of the feat, either on the balance between classes.
Enjoy it untill it lasts.
After this, now give a HUGE boost also to the GF since it is the class that ATM:
doesn't have a role in any party (lack of CC immune mobs makes the thanker useless untill you can CC anything)
doesn't bring any utility/support (5% dmg boost from tactitian tree is the best we can do? A second DC would cover this 20 times better)
doesn't bring any DPS (lowest DPS both in AoE and Single target; even the new amazing path that was specifically designed to bring more dps to the class in fact lowers his dps).
Unless this is their idea of fixing the class.
I don't see why the bleed making 30% of damage is so wrong and bad.
Because GWFs now do more single target damage than TRs and TRs along with GFs have no place in this game.
Now let's add that up real quick assuming it all counted, 206.25*1.85 (crit severity) = 381.56 *1.22 (strength bonus, disciple of the strength, and student of the sword) = 465.5
So again tell me how this is not broken? 465.5 is with all the debuffs I can find. Still far short of the 2700 damage it actually did.
TRs need some AoE buff of sorts, they should be able to push just as much damage as a CW/GWF in a dungeon run. Or ideally, dungeon design modified to allow melee classes to deal exclusive damage (mobs with anti-magic shield that needs to be broken by melee, immunities etc.).
I cannot say much about GFs. Sadly the one GF I used to run CN with seems to momentarily given up the GF for his HR. I do know that bizzy has a high damage GF though, how high, cannot tell.
Thing is, the solution is NOT to nerf the class that is finally performing well... aren't we all players? Don't you want you&other people to enjoy the game? Well nerfs are not fun.
So don't nerf, or "fix" "bugs", rather bring the other lacking classes up to par, so everybody enjoy themselves.
ok, 1 cw cause 3x the damage of a rogue + control is not a problem, the problem is gwf do more damage than the rogue in single target.
no one is concerned that he can do what the best class in the game, or at least make the best class in the game becomes balanced with the other (and this is what broke the game). the effort is to ensure that everyone is on the same dark hole, ensuring the crumb: 3 cw + one dps or tank.
assuming that this feat was made if thought, the others should also require a creative outlet to the problems of class, after all, you guys have invested time and / or money.
Yes DPS needs to be comparable to CW and TR, but GWF needs to be able to improve the capabilities of a full party.
As an instigator spec, I grant both Combat Advantage with 2 of my encounter powers and reduce defenses for things that I crit.
GWF needs some game mechanic that it can bring to the fight. If the target cap of attacks could be improved from 5 to 10, then that might be one way to improve the class.
CW pulls them in, perhaps GWF can get a root or slow enhancement to all or most powers?
Come and get it in 4th ed. D&D was good because targets could get stuck against the fighter for atleast a round. Come and get it needs a 3s root.
when i run dgs, each critical encounter gives me from 10~25k dmg, and each at will almost 4, 5 k on threatning rush. what kind of math is that that you use, do you attack the monster, crit for deep gash, and then wait deep gash to run off to attack again or what sir?
just for your information, i don't even run deep gash on my build for a long time, and i am still doing huge amounts of dps in dgs. and on pvp it is only usefull against low dr classes, and you still gotta hit and crit them, and it is still not a very high dps amount. why you blaming so much a feat that is still almost as no good, that others options still work better than it like great weapon focus, and the feat that leaves prone for extra second?
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
may be I am blind but that screenie you show us did not have bleed ticks for 3k+ looked more like 450 per tick to me
but might missed them.
no encounter used for bleed link plz because maths for them is different your maths are improving small amount and I will say it again if it is bug its not broken are dps is not breaking the game its just viable unless you think no class but your cw should be viable if that's case soon you will only have cw in the game and all other class's will be useless its close to that as is you should want game to be more fair fun for more people not less
will also say good tr can still out dps gwf specialy in single target.
if bleed is broken becase amount dps it dose so is cw so dlete hole cw class to nerf it then tr gf and gwf and hr even dc would all get groups easier. so lets nerf cw personally I have t2 cw and there much stronger than gwf I just like gwf style of play more I also have tr and there still g8 only class I really pitty at min and there still good good gear is gf because pure tanks are not needed much with how game plays
will also add 30% my dps in run with stox was not bleeds from what act says it was more like 18% but that don't matter becase mobs where melting and if we had less dps in group it would be higher amount
stox maybe you should start complain about how none cw class can still use weapons and items. that would reduce there dps more
or u could start asking for buffs for stox only because way I see it your not happy unless cw is only viable class
tbh may be it just stox that needs a buff not cw to upo his dps to 50x every one els then rest us can have viable game where all can have fun
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?567481-Trickster-Rogue-vs-Great-Weapon-Fighter-comparison
Builds done around that feat can get a 40% and even more dps boost.
450*6=2700
if we make gwf just use at wills and have 1 at will attack every few sec so on and really aim for it I bet u we can get that bleed % even higher
bleed icon says
your Critical strikes cause your target to bleed taking 3/6/9/12/15% of your power as damage over 5 seconds
it don't say if damage is derived into that time or not and it don't say if its per 1 second or not to me just says there bleeding for over 5 seconds 1-2-3-4-5 is over 5 seconds as well
but that could be me being word blind and all but to me many icons are not very clear at all and some even have hidden cds and so on don't make them broken or is every ability with hidden cd that's not listed broken?
we can go into list of icons over neverwinter to that don't do what they have listed at all if you like this ability bleeds and bleeds for 5 sec and is based on power that's pretty clear for neverwinter icon.
also icon don't say if it stacks how it stacks if its useable once full moon once every sec we can have never ending list how icons fail this is no reason to say its a bug
only thing that's going on here is cw not being happy that more ppl are becoming viable my dps is not even normal gwf dps from what most ppl say there having hard time with gwf still its just more fair and more viable why would any one in right mind have an issue with this.
I don't even have issue with cw still having high dps than gwf or if not I don't even have issue with cw having best cc in game. I am only happy my class is viable and can have uses I go for dps build with some tankie survability not even like we competing for same dungeon spots.
only thing that will happen if you nerf gwf is I will put my perfect vorpal my r7- r9 so on on my cw who has full hv all ready or might go hr because if they nerf this its hopeless for us all.
none us will ever be viable vs a cw and I will gain dps and cc and have a lot less fun.
I will also be happy if they chose to buff any other class to bring it more in line with cw gwf if its needed for that class because every one should be viable and fun to play any thing that brings us closer to this is a good thing not a bad one
it takes 0 skill to cookie cutter cw build hell u can google stox build 0 skill and takes pretty much no skill to press few keys so every one can be same and if not its hopeless for them this is not way it should be
yep gwf can have dps like cw now but still cw do have all cc and buffs and debuffs and for him is problem gwf but everyone makes 3xcw teams...this is some cw who is mad since gwf can have good dps as him now
Wow, you must really hate me. I said nothing but good things about you. I never said I had a problem with GWFs, I simply said that GWFs will not outdamage a CW, and took the challenge your friend made to DPS race. I'm sorry that even with you broken skill that you still lost. I didn't say anything bad about GWFs or you guys especially!
Also something not mentioned is the fact that CWs can either help, or interfere with the GWF ability to dish damage. For example helping would be a sing that brings mobs together, or an EF/Mastery that does the same thing, both would help the GWF. Oppressive Force and even Shard might lower GWF DPS. But in a contest, I suppose anyone use their most damaging skills, regardless if they mess the damage of the opponents.
So IMO, stox winning over gelflin is all natural, because of better gear and full PvE DPS build focus, and spells that make things harder for the GWF opponent.
However... there's another GWF out there that might do approximatively double the damage gelflin does
The point of all this topic was that GWFs are far from underperforming, as people claim. GWFs are awesome, even without the bleed. I think this point was proven again and again.
just annoying that ppl crying bug when feat is acting with in what tool tip says and it is not breaking the game so no one should be sad about that yet people cry bug when they can not even know if it is yet as no dev has said no one can know its also not game breaking.
you keep posting to try prove its bug with out full maths or any thing when you look at it my way read icon my way it works fine yes its broken if you read it your way but that's not up to us to chose until dev says its bug i will say its not becase its not breaking any thing
sorry if I came of strong I do that some times why I do not post much i even have to edit posts a lot to fix typos so i know i don't get all typos but i do try and its very blunt when i type and some times comes out bit wrong i am very sorry for that.
I personally don't believe any class in this game reqs much skill as its like 6 buttons or so so even my gwf to me don't take much skill some one could cookie cutter me tommow done right and be as good.
hell some my other class's are cookie cutter made them to learn about other t2 60 class's mainly.
I can not w8 to see what things are added to neverwinter to give more in depth take higher skill set and make it even more fun.
I did not mean your bad player but at end game gear level specially with full gorup this game is not very hard.
did think you would think same did not mean any thing about you as your very good cw just don't think this game is that challenging yet at high levels of gear.
there is many game breaking bugs that a lot these people have never posted about and we know these bugs yet there picking on bleeds that we do not know are bug or not it might be depends what devs wanted but as it makes a class viable its good to me
if they nerf me tommow I will not mind will not effect me much as I can pretty much pick any of the class's and have same gear level.
as some people in this thread know i have a lot level 60 chars i build them for pvp and to help me learn in and out of them for pvp premade (i am not pvping vs pugs normally as there is no real match making and its unfair) point trying make is class is fun viable in pve that was all.
i also do think it don't matter if its 95% some ones dps from skill if it makes them viable and dose not break game people should not have issue if we all get are dps from same places we are all same class no matter how you label it.
also stox i found race fun and as you know i used my normal build as i did not start leaping battlefurying to mobs and i did not spec dps i did not expect to win vs good player and never said i would win was just to show we viable and i even asked u to post out come at end not caring i lost.
if i really did care i would used full pots like i do normally when i run swaped to a dps spec and used leaps and battle fury to races to mobs fast but that was not the aim of test
to me was just to show it is viable and has place in pve yes i am pvp/carrie build so on but even full dps so on think your still win in melting match but gwf are viable and i will show any one who thinks not that it is.
X feat deals Y damage with a percentage of 1200% damage increase <--- what actually happens
Conclusion:
1- The feat tool tip isn't accurate (which is kind of un realistic, because no feat should be 30% of your DPS).
OR
2- The feat isn't working as intended/bugged.
Now about the CW cs GWF bull <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, i have out DPSed a large margin of CWs on my TR on a full run. Does that mean that i'm a great super TR? no.
It means that these CWs were either:
1- Using wrong rotation.
2- Using wrong spec.
3- 1&2
4- Spec'ed for control, not DPS.
A good CW can out DPS any GWF/TR/GF. It was already proven that with screenies but people still argue.
A bad CW is a bad CW.
will post it like this as don't want to offend
1- The feat tool tip isn't accurate (which is kind of un realistic, because no feat should be 30% of your DPS).
Tool tip says your Critical strikes cause your target to bleed taking 3/6/9/12/15% of your power as damage over 5 seconds
it don't say if damage is derived into that time or not and it don't say if its 450 per 1 second or not to me just says there bleeding for over 5 seconds 0-1-2-3-4-5 is over 5 seconds as well so 450 6 times =2700
where is it said what % damage a feat should be can we have your % cap on this so i can log in and brake it on act with any class pretty much all have to do is pick right feat like it just hit what ever with that ability sure you can get a lot feats to do it if we try and use 1 feat or ability to break act.
in that run with stox was like 18% becase stuff was melting ask stox how many mobs even elites where stood up for 5 seconds most died with in 1-2.
2- The feat isn't working as intended/bugged.
Not many tool tips are clear in never winter we don't say there bug because that normally
Now about the CW cs GWF bull <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, i have out DPSed a large margin of CWs on my TR on a full run. Does that mean that i'm a great super TR? no.
It means that these CWs were either:
1- Using wrong rotation.
2- Using wrong spec.
3- 1&2
4- Spec'ed for control, not DPS.
A good CW can out DPS any GWF/TR/GF. It already proven that with screenies but people still argue.
A bad CW is a bad CW.
Just because you out dps some one don't make them bad there very many factors you did not take into account personal i don't think cw should ever be judge or any one should be judged by dps.
yet i know 1 gwf with about double my dps i am just bad gwf maybe as i was not right spec and i did not plan to be as i don't like just being dps and just wanted show its viable to a lot us dps is not only thing that makes a class viable.
i have 25% more threat on single target so can tank a lot stuff even when out dpsed as long not to big amount and many other abilitys that help make me viable like i was not sqishie
i am not saying this is better than dps but i think there all viable ability's and useful ones
And that's exactly why i mentioned the two options. It could be or could be not a bug, but tool tip says something and the actual numbers says something else. Only a developer can aswer that, but for the time being, it is CLEARLY not working as what the tool tip says no matter how much you try to twist it around.
I think i wasn't clear enough, my bad.
What i meant was, if a PvE CW who is speced for control and DPS get out DPSed by another class it means that this CW is bad/not properly playing.
But incase of a CW who is specced for control only and is dependent on another class to deal the damage, then that's another story.
This is why i mentioned all the situations in points 1,2,3,4.
I'm not sure what factors are you talking about. If you and the CW are in the same party, same dungein, fighting same mobs, with same debuffs and with same buffs then i don't see any differences or advantages/disadvantages for either of the classes, besides the class's abilities themselves.
1- The feat tool tip isn't accurate (which is kind of un realistic, because no feat should be 30% of your DPS).
OR
2- The feat isn't working as intended/bugged."
in fact, an alternative not exclude the other.
By theory I should increase the damage of my old bleed in at least 148% of it was according to the patch notes (+ damage bonus).
the deep gash appears to be counting also the percentages given on the calculations of each power individually, and that is done on the amount of attributes (power A = x% on strength / damage bonus. Power B = y% on strength / damage bonus.).
well, not 148% or 924 098% (depending on power) can be deduced from the description of the feat.