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This is How Fighters fair in Module 2
zardoz007
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 2 Arc User
GF
http://i.imgur.com/F9QcGuF.jpg
GWF
http://i.imgur.com/DaCr6VY.jpg
The above links are the tooltips from the GF and GWF abilities take just after Respec with no powers spent, no abilities score spent, no feats spent and no companions or gear equipped beyond there Respective Formian fabled weapon. And each class has max strength for there class, 18 for GF and 20 for GWF. This is the absolute base states for all fighter powers. I dont feel this is a truly accurate comparison without feats spent as GF gets some of the best feats for increasing damage on these powers than from any other class. But it does become interesting to view now that powers are shared between the two classes.
I will be using this as reference once I start to discuss the comparisons of the classes in specific details. But right now lets look at the general. I have been running as many dungeons as I can with my Fighters since Module 2 has been released to see if Fighters have become more viable in Module 2 than they were before.
First I made an Iron Vangaurd Sentinel PVE tank GWF to test the buffs and improvements GWF received in module 2. GWF threat is noticeably higher with the Trample the Fallen and The Come and get it/Daring shout +25% threat taunt. As a GWF I often could run into a group of mobs and build enough threat to hold all the mobs I could hit with Wicked strike until they died from CW's. CW's with there control powers only make Trample the fallen proc alot more which means alot more threat for the GWF. However I did notice drawbacks to this threat. First when in a group with an equally geared CW and both of you engage at the same time the GWF can often lose threat to the CW but he is capable to fight for the threat. This has alot of problems when trying to pic up adds in a boss fights. as both classes jump on adds very fast, making GWF a poor boss fight tank when he does not out gear his party. The next problem is that when you try to out threat a CW that out gears you there is no Contest.
A GF in basic T1's and blue gear still makes vastly more threat than my very well geared 14k+ GWF. There is no contest a GWF can not even begin to fight a GF for threat. HR's are also another problem, they seem to make more threat than even there damage should allow. A GWF has to vastly outgear and outdamage a HR in order to protect them. That means GWF tanks should not use Tank gear. But damage gear to hold threat. And if you are a GWF still gearing up you should not bother with tanking until you can outgear most any other player you play with.
Over all I am disappointment with the buffs made to the GWF. It seems the devs gave the GWFs alot of buffs based on suggestions by the players by they did not give the GWF enough of what was asked for. The buffs virtually do not change anything for a GWF's value in game as a PVE character. Not unless you are already a very top of the line GWF. Another problem are the fixes that a CW got, CW's moves now properly work with armor pen and Arcane singularity now properly Crits, these fixes are worth more to the CW than any buff the GWF has received. This is another huge disappointment with the devs as the GWF's slam still does not properly crit as all other dailies in the game can. Other classes are being fixed before the GWF. So CW's have become even more valuable. And HR's are the new rising star as Ranged damage is valued far above melee damage. Even if ranged damage did not do more than melee, which it does this still would be the case.
The devs do not understand the shortcomings of needing to be in melee to deal damage in this game. As the melee classes have nothing special over the ranged classes to compensate for poor range and the need to waist time chasing down mobs/running away form mobs to avoid red.
The new class setup seems to be 1 Melee, 1 DC and 4 range, mostly 2 CW's and an HR/CW. TR seems to be getting pushed into the same boat as the GWF for value in a group because of this.
Now GF. GF is the tank they have not gained any real improvements in Module 2 but they are becoming more valuable. When groups are only bringing 1 melee, and melee's job is not to do damage, I have seen a slightly higher demand for the GF so they can keep mobs of the ranged DPS when control powers are down. This makes runs go very smoothly, and players are starting to see that.
While leveling HR to 40 now I have noticed no one is leveling Fighters at all, Every skirmish and Dungeon I have been in has had 0 Fighters. It ha s always been 1-2 HR,s 1-2 CW's, 1-2 TR's and a Cleric if your lucky.
It is safe to say that for all the improvements devs try to give the GWF, they will never bother to do anything significant enough to give the class a real change and grant them a proper place in a PvE team. GF seems to be on a slight rise as the new content seems to have a higher demand for tanks. If a Small demand but the GF situation seems to be improving.
I will go into further detail on the specifics of class powers and how I think the fighters can be improved. But for this threat I say keep things general tell your tales of Module 2 fighters the good and the bad and share experiences.
CHAPTER 2
I'm not complaining that GWF can't tank as well as a GF. I was stating the facts I noticed about how the GWF tanks now that they got a buff to there tanking skills. And one of those facts is that a GWF cannot come close to a GF's threat. It's the same as stating the fact that a GF cannot run anywhere near as fast as a GWF can.
With module I made the attempt to resurrect my fighter classes to see how they fair in groups in module 2 and the one fact that stands out about the rest is that GWF has a harder time getting a group than any other class. GF seems to have a bit easier time getting a group and CW, TR and DC are about the same as they where in module 1.
I started this game playing GWF, and abandoned the class long ago for the simple reason as I dont like spending an hour+ looking for group. The class is fun to play when I can play it but I main CW because I would rather be able to play then not play. CW is the most common class in the game today and it is still a very easy class to get a group especially if you have the gearscore.
What I focus on when I complain about the GWF is not how powerful it is how much better other classes are but how players react to the GWF and how players see the GWF's role in the group. And GWF role has gone downhill since Module 2. HR is to blame for this decline, fixes to the CW that make the CW alot better than the buffs a GWF got are another reason.
This is how GWF stands.
DAMAGE
A talented GWF players damage, deals about 50% less damage than an equally skilled and geared CW. HR's have potential to deal more damage than a CW but I have yet to see there true full potential. Will know more when I group my CW with equally geared HR's. GWFs out DPS TR's in area damage but not single target and usually out DPS GF's as GF's dont often play pure damage specs like a GWF should. This is permitting that a GWF is focused on area damage and a PVE spec. If a GWF enters PVE with PVP gear and moves and I have witnessed many GWF's doing this there damage can end up being about 50% more than the DC.
This means that many players prefer a CW or HR to the GWF's damage. If you want add control you go HR and/or CW. If you want boss killing damage you take a TR. The continuing theme of PVP GWF's in PvE only further discredits the classes usefulness.
THREAT
GWF that is completely threat focused makes about as much threat as an equally geared CW, noticeably less threat than a HR. And significantly less threat than a GF. This means a GWFs role as a protector like it is labeled in the classes description fails to protect the CW and HR. They can protect a DC fine and a TR doesn't need protecting they have enough of there own escapes to no need a tank with high threat. Very few GWF's even try to tank with threat moves. So no one expects them to tank, playing a tank type GWF hurts you as a GWF because players want you to do damage, and it is often not worth it to sacrifice damage for threat and defense to tank. If the Devs goal with the last update was to promote GWF as an offtank, it has failed. For a GWF to be an offtank, they need the kind of threat a full GWF tank generates now in DPS builds. and a Full tank GWF should easily out threat the HR but still not come close to a GF's threat. A GF's threat is so huge there is definitely a large margin that a GWF can be in without stealing the GF's thunder.
DEFENSES
GWF is easily at the top of classes for being hard to kill. You can argue they are harder to kill than a GF. A GF's block is an iffy mechanic. there are attacks in the game that can completely wipe an entire block meter. Smart GF's dont block those attacks but avoid them instead. I believe a GF's survivability is based on the GF's skill. While GWF is static no matter where they go.
Players rarely invite a GWF because they want a class that is hard to kill in there team. Being hard to kill without the threat to back it up only helps that class in PvE it does not help the group. This is one of the main reasons GWF popularity suffers as a party member choice. There best talent being tough to kill does not benefit his party at all.
Since Live players have been asking for GWF damage buffs across the board. Most players see the GWF as a damage dealer. And to be such and be as useful as a CW or HR they need to consistently deal as much or more damage than those other classes. What they lack in range and control they make up for in defenses and being able to survive on the front line. They are melee after all they have to survive on the front line to be useful. But GWF have never gotten a significant DPS boost since live. This last patch and the reduction in damage lsot on multiple target hit to both WMS and Wicked strike has been the single most significant damage boost the class has ever received. A GWf is defined by these skills and by hitting multiple target to deal damage.
I would like to see the GWF be a damage dealer, players in this game respec damage and nothing would make the class more popular than to up there damage. But this is not going to happen so I no longer ask for damage buffs across the board. There are a few areas they could use some damage increases hopefully I can convince some change in these minor areas. All the buffs a GWF has received since Live has made the GWF tougher given more control at the cost of damage and granted more utility and threat power to the GWF moves. Beyond the temp HP granted to unstoppable GWF has not had a single popular buff that other players talk about in game as a strength to the class.
Ask yourself is anyone talking about the threat bonuses a GWF received in Module two? Are GWf offtanks more popular. No GWF and GF still fight for the same spot in the party.
So I will ask for buffs I think the GWF can get with the direction the devs have taken the class. More utility more threat. The best part about these types of buffs is that it will not make the class stronger in PvP, so you will not have any complaints in that area. But will hopefully and finally make the class a popular choice in PvE as popular as any of the other classes.
I will add this second post of mine to the original, As when I think out a Problem I get a little novel going and it's good to read everything in context.
http://i.imgur.com/F9QcGuF.jpg
GWF
http://i.imgur.com/DaCr6VY.jpg
The above links are the tooltips from the GF and GWF abilities take just after Respec with no powers spent, no abilities score spent, no feats spent and no companions or gear equipped beyond there Respective Formian fabled weapon. And each class has max strength for there class, 18 for GF and 20 for GWF. This is the absolute base states for all fighter powers. I dont feel this is a truly accurate comparison without feats spent as GF gets some of the best feats for increasing damage on these powers than from any other class. But it does become interesting to view now that powers are shared between the two classes.
I will be using this as reference once I start to discuss the comparisons of the classes in specific details. But right now lets look at the general. I have been running as many dungeons as I can with my Fighters since Module 2 has been released to see if Fighters have become more viable in Module 2 than they were before.
First I made an Iron Vangaurd Sentinel PVE tank GWF to test the buffs and improvements GWF received in module 2. GWF threat is noticeably higher with the Trample the Fallen and The Come and get it/Daring shout +25% threat taunt. As a GWF I often could run into a group of mobs and build enough threat to hold all the mobs I could hit with Wicked strike until they died from CW's. CW's with there control powers only make Trample the fallen proc alot more which means alot more threat for the GWF. However I did notice drawbacks to this threat. First when in a group with an equally geared CW and both of you engage at the same time the GWF can often lose threat to the CW but he is capable to fight for the threat. This has alot of problems when trying to pic up adds in a boss fights. as both classes jump on adds very fast, making GWF a poor boss fight tank when he does not out gear his party. The next problem is that when you try to out threat a CW that out gears you there is no Contest.
A GF in basic T1's and blue gear still makes vastly more threat than my very well geared 14k+ GWF. There is no contest a GWF can not even begin to fight a GF for threat. HR's are also another problem, they seem to make more threat than even there damage should allow. A GWF has to vastly outgear and outdamage a HR in order to protect them. That means GWF tanks should not use Tank gear. But damage gear to hold threat. And if you are a GWF still gearing up you should not bother with tanking until you can outgear most any other player you play with.
Over all I am disappointment with the buffs made to the GWF. It seems the devs gave the GWFs alot of buffs based on suggestions by the players by they did not give the GWF enough of what was asked for. The buffs virtually do not change anything for a GWF's value in game as a PVE character. Not unless you are already a very top of the line GWF. Another problem are the fixes that a CW got, CW's moves now properly work with armor pen and Arcane singularity now properly Crits, these fixes are worth more to the CW than any buff the GWF has received. This is another huge disappointment with the devs as the GWF's slam still does not properly crit as all other dailies in the game can. Other classes are being fixed before the GWF. So CW's have become even more valuable. And HR's are the new rising star as Ranged damage is valued far above melee damage. Even if ranged damage did not do more than melee, which it does this still would be the case.
The devs do not understand the shortcomings of needing to be in melee to deal damage in this game. As the melee classes have nothing special over the ranged classes to compensate for poor range and the need to waist time chasing down mobs/running away form mobs to avoid red.
The new class setup seems to be 1 Melee, 1 DC and 4 range, mostly 2 CW's and an HR/CW. TR seems to be getting pushed into the same boat as the GWF for value in a group because of this.
Now GF. GF is the tank they have not gained any real improvements in Module 2 but they are becoming more valuable. When groups are only bringing 1 melee, and melee's job is not to do damage, I have seen a slightly higher demand for the GF so they can keep mobs of the ranged DPS when control powers are down. This makes runs go very smoothly, and players are starting to see that.
While leveling HR to 40 now I have noticed no one is leveling Fighters at all, Every skirmish and Dungeon I have been in has had 0 Fighters. It ha s always been 1-2 HR,s 1-2 CW's, 1-2 TR's and a Cleric if your lucky.
It is safe to say that for all the improvements devs try to give the GWF, they will never bother to do anything significant enough to give the class a real change and grant them a proper place in a PvE team. GF seems to be on a slight rise as the new content seems to have a higher demand for tanks. If a Small demand but the GF situation seems to be improving.
I will go into further detail on the specifics of class powers and how I think the fighters can be improved. But for this threat I say keep things general tell your tales of Module 2 fighters the good and the bad and share experiences.
CHAPTER 2
I'm not complaining that GWF can't tank as well as a GF. I was stating the facts I noticed about how the GWF tanks now that they got a buff to there tanking skills. And one of those facts is that a GWF cannot come close to a GF's threat. It's the same as stating the fact that a GF cannot run anywhere near as fast as a GWF can.
With module I made the attempt to resurrect my fighter classes to see how they fair in groups in module 2 and the one fact that stands out about the rest is that GWF has a harder time getting a group than any other class. GF seems to have a bit easier time getting a group and CW, TR and DC are about the same as they where in module 1.
I started this game playing GWF, and abandoned the class long ago for the simple reason as I dont like spending an hour+ looking for group. The class is fun to play when I can play it but I main CW because I would rather be able to play then not play. CW is the most common class in the game today and it is still a very easy class to get a group especially if you have the gearscore.
What I focus on when I complain about the GWF is not how powerful it is how much better other classes are but how players react to the GWF and how players see the GWF's role in the group. And GWF role has gone downhill since Module 2. HR is to blame for this decline, fixes to the CW that make the CW alot better than the buffs a GWF got are another reason.
This is how GWF stands.
DAMAGE
A talented GWF players damage, deals about 50% less damage than an equally skilled and geared CW. HR's have potential to deal more damage than a CW but I have yet to see there true full potential. Will know more when I group my CW with equally geared HR's. GWFs out DPS TR's in area damage but not single target and usually out DPS GF's as GF's dont often play pure damage specs like a GWF should. This is permitting that a GWF is focused on area damage and a PVE spec. If a GWF enters PVE with PVP gear and moves and I have witnessed many GWF's doing this there damage can end up being about 50% more than the DC.
This means that many players prefer a CW or HR to the GWF's damage. If you want add control you go HR and/or CW. If you want boss killing damage you take a TR. The continuing theme of PVP GWF's in PvE only further discredits the classes usefulness.
THREAT
GWF that is completely threat focused makes about as much threat as an equally geared CW, noticeably less threat than a HR. And significantly less threat than a GF. This means a GWFs role as a protector like it is labeled in the classes description fails to protect the CW and HR. They can protect a DC fine and a TR doesn't need protecting they have enough of there own escapes to no need a tank with high threat. Very few GWF's even try to tank with threat moves. So no one expects them to tank, playing a tank type GWF hurts you as a GWF because players want you to do damage, and it is often not worth it to sacrifice damage for threat and defense to tank. If the Devs goal with the last update was to promote GWF as an offtank, it has failed. For a GWF to be an offtank, they need the kind of threat a full GWF tank generates now in DPS builds. and a Full tank GWF should easily out threat the HR but still not come close to a GF's threat. A GF's threat is so huge there is definitely a large margin that a GWF can be in without stealing the GF's thunder.
DEFENSES
GWF is easily at the top of classes for being hard to kill. You can argue they are harder to kill than a GF. A GF's block is an iffy mechanic. there are attacks in the game that can completely wipe an entire block meter. Smart GF's dont block those attacks but avoid them instead. I believe a GF's survivability is based on the GF's skill. While GWF is static no matter where they go.
Players rarely invite a GWF because they want a class that is hard to kill in there team. Being hard to kill without the threat to back it up only helps that class in PvE it does not help the group. This is one of the main reasons GWF popularity suffers as a party member choice. There best talent being tough to kill does not benefit his party at all.
Since Live players have been asking for GWF damage buffs across the board. Most players see the GWF as a damage dealer. And to be such and be as useful as a CW or HR they need to consistently deal as much or more damage than those other classes. What they lack in range and control they make up for in defenses and being able to survive on the front line. They are melee after all they have to survive on the front line to be useful. But GWF have never gotten a significant DPS boost since live. This last patch and the reduction in damage lsot on multiple target hit to both WMS and Wicked strike has been the single most significant damage boost the class has ever received. A GWf is defined by these skills and by hitting multiple target to deal damage.
I would like to see the GWF be a damage dealer, players in this game respec damage and nothing would make the class more popular than to up there damage. But this is not going to happen so I no longer ask for damage buffs across the board. There are a few areas they could use some damage increases hopefully I can convince some change in these minor areas. All the buffs a GWF has received since Live has made the GWF tougher given more control at the cost of damage and granted more utility and threat power to the GWF moves. Beyond the temp HP granted to unstoppable GWF has not had a single popular buff that other players talk about in game as a strength to the class.
Ask yourself is anyone talking about the threat bonuses a GWF received in Module two? Are GWf offtanks more popular. No GWF and GF still fight for the same spot in the party.
So I will ask for buffs I think the GWF can get with the direction the devs have taken the class. More utility more threat. The best part about these types of buffs is that it will not make the class stronger in PvP, so you will not have any complaints in that area. But will hopefully and finally make the class a popular choice in PvE as popular as any of the other classes.
I will add this second post of mine to the original, As when I think out a Problem I get a little novel going and it's good to read everything in context.
Post edited by zardoz007 on
0
Comments
I agree with you on many aspect of your speech but I would give my point of view anyway.
Actually, IMHO, the GWF have far more potential than a GF since, as you admitted, the best way to generate threat is by dealing more dmg and the GWF has far more dmg output potential.
As we can clearly see, any skill that have been switched between the classes deal more dmg when used by a GWF and less dmg when used by a GF this because of the lower base dmg of the GF' weapons.
I honestly haven't tested why or how a GF can generate more threat than a GWF but, based on my own experience, I see many GWF that even with the new path are never prone to spam Threatning rush to mark the mobs.
The last aspect I would consider is that a GF or a GWF will become a "usefull" class once we will have more CC immune adds (I still wonder why the devs stepped back from what they did with MC and gave us another dungeon where ANY mob isn't CC immune).
Last thing I would like to note is: why a GF can't have a 3rd AoE encounter? The GF is good to take the agro only when the mobs are well packed by a CW, other than this is a continuous bouncing here and there to mark and cleave what you got around you just because we have basically only 1 and 1/2 AoE encounter to use to generate agro in the first phases of the battle.
Passive threat generation from potent challenge, enhanced mark if they've got it slotted (builds threat on marked targets)?
And it has better tanking mechanics specially for PvE
But u just cant forget what huge influence GWF has in PvP... i mean they are close to godly with this new buffs they get from GF paragon.
So its slightly imbalanced again and melee is slightly on the bench right now but still cant go without them
One is a tank class.
I do not understand the problem.
DO I get to complain how pathetic my GF's damage output is??
GF can do crazy dmg in dungeons and do their tank job same time
um, what? You can't "tank" any more than few elite mobs in any spec. Probably least in a dps spec.
I don't know what this 'crazy damage' you're talking about is, considering everything gets aoe'd to oblivion by CW/HR/GWFs, while we what, cleave tickle the mobs?
Damage you deal to marked enemies also = threat. In the tactician tree there's also a talent that makes you gain an extra 5/10/15/20/25% threat when you hit an enemy and proc Trample the Fallen, which is pretty much constantly if you have any sort of classes with CC abilities.
I haven't messed with protector spec GF, so my experience just comes from conq/tactican
Pinny Foxfang - 60 Guardian Fighter
Pinny Foxfire - 60 Scourge Warlock (Temptation)
Amazing, truly. And worst, is that you drag in an entirely different class that was unfortunate enough to get caught in the cross fire just because it too uses a sword, has similar lore plus from which almost all the best aspects were stolen and given to GWFs in Shadowmantle...
My GWF can acquire aoe threat, single target threat (*) and kite just as well as my CN-geared GF and that was while wearing two purple for 2pc bonus, all the rest blues, mostly Rank 5s and a couple of 6s, gearing succesfully up through Karrundax, SP, FH, and ToS, most of the time as the only tank. My damage was also never lower than second in all instances unless the group also had a top-geared IV GWF (or while I briefly played around with an SM Instigator build).
What more could you want?
If you want to argue about how they implemented many of the buffs, that's understandable, since pretty much everyone thought it was a terrible idea, and many probably still do due to the balancing implications and future design for both classes. But that's quite different from saying the buffs were not effective.
(*) Admittedly, getting threat away from an HR in particular on a single target in an aoe situation is harder for a GWF, while trivial for a GF since they use the same tools for almost all types of threat.
The "new" Paragon Paths are not just lazy, they are destructive. All they have done is blurred the line further between two classes that are wrongly seen as having equivalent roles by far too many people.
2 - gwf: all I can do is give my point of view as destroyer / swordmaster.
I do not know if it's because I play nw long ago, but I feel a great fluidity in the relationship with the other in its class today. I will not make a long speech reporting point by point and did not say that 2 gwf can replace two cw for crowd control ... but can do almost as good work.
The big problem in my opinion is that changes in the class look like they were made to run cn / karrundax / spider / pirate. I have not located that the class was "modernized" for new projects dungeons / bosses where you need to quickly cancel an action / attack away. Unless you create a head of multiple targets (the Hydra). There is no "rough" work.
ps:not yet entered in VT. I saw the last boss by youtube.
i agree. see the description of gwf.
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Great_Weapon_Fighter
"The Great Weapon Fighter is an unstoppable force of damage and steel, skilled in using the weight of the greatsword to dispatch Those que stand in the way. The epitome of strength, the Great Weapon Fighter Also is resilient enough to defend allies in need. "
his experience (and my) hit exactly what the class intended to be. she reached her ideal (need only be modernized).
- at same levels of gear, GWF can outdamage CW in dungeons and is an invaluable asset on the last fight in VT - but not only. GWFs make MC and CN runs easier as well, and this also stands true for almost all t2s
- with nothing but good to decent gear, a GWF can turn whole matches in PvP and carry entire teams while annihilating many better geared adversaries. They regen, they do damage, they CC, they can go immune, sprint to close gaps, reset encounters and come back healed and take some more punishment
So my question is, what you ACTUALLY want for the GWF?
Do you want it to top dps charts at inferior gear&skill? Tank better than a GF? Get even more PvP buffs?
Because it's clear you think the class is underpowered.
How can you claim GF and GWF have the same tools to build aggro. GWF lack the keystone of GF threat and that is the 30% threat buff GF recieved on all moves when the class was buffed in early live stage, then potent challenge for another 15% and Enhanced mark for another 100% threat. GWf and GF only share trample the fallen, bonus threat versus controlled targets. GWf need to sudo-taunt and spend 5 feats with Daring shout or Come and get it for +25% threat buff on all attacks for a short duration, or spend 5 more feats for +25% threat buff on slam damage. Or yet again 5 more feats for +25% threat buff when using Reaping strike or Sure strike.
The classes threat mechanics are completely different as well as their purpose to mark. A GF marks and gets bonus threat. Alot of it. A GWF marks for +15% damage, also a power that requires 5 feats.
I main GF and I have never met a GWf of my gear or lower that I could not equal or even double there damage.
My experience lately since module 2 with these 15k GWF's running around in VT is that I usually do double there damage as my 17k GF. The reason. These are purely PvP spec GWF's in dungoens using PvP gear and moves because they have nothing else. This is the route GWF has gone. Players have multiple characters and for most players that have GWF they use them as a PVP only toon they PvE as CW, DC and prolly HR will add to this list.
They buffs the devs give the GWF are insulting. The class gets buffed in PvP and gets nothing for PvE. Or the buffs they do get IE threat and damage reduction from wicked strike. Are not significant enough to cause the class to get out it's "deep dark pit of no one loves you" What frustrates me the most about the GWF situation is that GF is also in the same boat as being a less than desirable class. But since the GWF is so terrible, the GF gets absolutely no attention.
What I really hate seeing is how players complain that the GF doesn't do damage. The GF has all the damage potential as the GWF. But you have to have more specific gear as it is harder to get the damage gear a GF needs to do comparable damage. And you need an augment pet also with the right gear in order to get the crit Armor pen and power that makes the GF shine. ut it's true the GF does not need to do damage to shine they have more than enough threat buffs to deal medium damage and be very hard to kill. Most GF players I see go for this medium route. Its sensible I can respec it. But I know that in this game Damage is All so I play damage GF and I do it very well. Since i have never seen a GWF ever wow me without being full rank 10's and Perfect Everything It is my opinion that the GWF is a useless class and I never have any reason to invite one to my groups other than to pity the class. This is more true since mosdule 2 because HR's love me I can keep thre threat of them and the HR's can use there I make more threat and do more damage trick freely with a GF in the party. For a GWF to be considered to be in the same party they would need to be an add tank. and if they can't out threat all other classes using all threat build and pure damage gear. then they fail as a tank period. A tank should be able to permit some defense gear in his build and still hold threat. A GWF cannot do this unless they outgear there entire party by a large margin.
Since module 2 started the few good GWF's I knew retired there GWF's to PvP only because of the loss of animation cancel for WMS. They considered it integral to there GWF play style and without it they stopped caring about the class
I would be intrigued to know what exactly you consider "damage gear a GF needs to do comparable damage."
Also no GWF can compare to a GF for single target damage. Knights challenge Anvil of Doom Lunging Strike is single target DPS king. Even more so if you go Swordmaster and use WMS feat to reduce mitigation to your encounters by 10%.
Dont know if swordmaster is really worth it though you lose alot in add control for going that route... but then again MC and VT bos fights are all about the single target DPS. and a GF dropping 120k Anvils of doom on boss is awesome.
I'm not complaining that GWF can't tank as well as a GF. I was stating the facts I noticed about how the GWF tanks now that they got a buff to there tanking skills. And one of those facts is that a GWF cannot come close to a GF's threat. It's the same as stating the fact that a GF cannot run anywhere near as fast as a GWF can.
With module I made the attempt to resurrect my fighter classes to see how they fair in groups in module 2 and the one fact that stands out about the rest is that GWF has a harder time getting a group than any other class. GF seems to have a bit easier time getting a group and CW, TR and DC are about the same as they where in module 1.
I started this game playing GWF, and abandoned the class long ago for the simple reason as I dont like spending an hour+ looking for group. The class is fun to play when I can play it but I main CW because I would rather be able to play then not play. CW is the most common class in the game today and it is still a very easy class to get a group especially if you have the gearscore.
What I focus on when I complain about the GWF is not how powerful it is how much better other classes are but how players react to the GWF and how players see the GWF's role in the group. And GWF role has gone downhill since Module 2. HR is to blame for this decline, fixes to the CW that make the CW alot better than the buffs a GWF got are another reason.
This is how GWF stands.
DAMAGE
A talented GWF players damage, deals about 50% less damage than an equally skilled and geared CW. HR's have potential to deal more damage than a CW but I have yet to see there true full potential. Will know more when I group my CW with equally geared HR's. GWFs out DPS TR's in area damage but not single target and usually out DPS GF's as GF's dont often play pure damage specs like a GWF should. This is permitting that a GWF is focused on area damage and a PVE spec. If a GWF enters PVE with PVP gear and moves and I have witnessed many GWF's doing this there damage can end up being about 50% more than the DC.
This means that many players prefer a CW or HR to the GWF's damage. If you want add control you go HR and/or CW. If you want boss killing damage you take a TR. The continuing theme of PVP GWF's in PvE only further discredits the classes usefulness.
THREAT
GWF that is completely threat focused makes about as much threat as an equally geared CW, noticeably less threat than a HR. And significantly less threat than a GF. This means a GWFs role as a protector like it is labeled in the classes description fails to protect the CW and HR. They can protect a DC fine and a TR doesn't need protecting they have enough of there own escapes to no need a tank with high threat. Very few GWF's even try to tank with threat moves. So no one expects them to tank, playing a tank type GWF hurts you as a GWF because players want you to do damage, and it is often not worth it to sacrifice damage for threat and defense to tank. If the Devs goal with the last update was to promote GWF as an offtank, it has failed. For a GWF to be an offtank, they need the kind of threat a full GWF tank generates now in DPS builds. and a Full tank GWF should easily out threat the HR but still not come close to a GF's threat. A GF's threat is so huge there is definitely a large margin that a GWF can be in without stealing the GF's thunder.
DEFENSES
GWF is easily at the top of classes for being hard to kill. You can argue they are harder to kill than a GF. A GF's block is an iffy mechanic. there are attacks in the game that can completely wipe an entire block meter. Smart GF's dont block those attacks but avoid them instead. I believe a GF's survivability is based on the GF's skill. While GWF is static no matter where they go.
Players rarely invite a GWF because they want a class that is hard to kill in there team. Being hard to kill without the threat to back it up only helps that class in PvE it does not help the group. This is one of the main reasons GWF popularity suffers as a party member choice. There best talent being tough to kill does not benefit his party at all.
Since Live players have been asking for GWF damage buffs across the board. Most players see the GWF as a damage dealer. And to be such and be as useful as a CW or HR they need to consistently deal as much or more damage than those other classes. What they lack in range and control they make up for in defenses and being able to survive on the front line. They are melee after all they have to survive on the front line to be useful. But GWF have never gotten a significant DPS boost since live. This last patch and the reduction in damage lsot on multiple target hit to both WMS and Wicked strike has been the single most significant damage boost the class has ever received. A GWf is defined by these skills and by hitting multiple target to deal damage.
I would like to see the GWF be a damage dealer, players in this game respec damage and nothing would make the class more popular than to up there damage. But this is not going to happen so I no longer ask for damage buffs across the board. There are a few areas they could use some damage increases hopefully I can convince some change in these minor areas. All the buffs a GWF has received since Live has made the GWF tougher given more control at the cost of damage and granted more utility and threat power to the GWF moves. Beyond the temp HP granted to unstoppable GWF has not had a single popular buff that other players talk about in game as a strength to the class.
Ask yourself is anyone talking about the threat bonuses a GWF received in Module two? Are GWf offtanks more popular. No GWF and GF still fight for the same spot in the party.
So I will ask for buffs I think the GWF can get with the direction the devs have taken the class. More utility more threat. The best part about these types of buffs is that it will not make the class stronger in PvP, so you will not have any complaints in that area. But will hopefully and finally make the class a popular choice in PvE as popular as any of the other classes.
I will add this second post of mine to the original, As when I think out a Problem I get a little novel going and it's good to read everything in context.
As a 3rd party observer I'd like to know what you consider false info in his post?
I don't disagree with the usage and observances of the classes. GWF, for all intents and purposes, is **** near impossible to get into a party for a dungeon delve and the like, unless you start the party yourself.
The main problem, I feel, is not the classes fault. It's simply that dungeon design and simple AI make it so defenders have yet to see a real, 'needful' use. This doesn't make our current defenders bad. It just makes them useless, as they have no real reason for showing up.
Everyone needs to deal damage to kill the enemies. And while it's taken less of a role behind us defenders, there isn't alot of call for leaders (read, for buffs) and controllers (read, for debuffs) as well. The game is centered on damage dealt, and until dungeon design advances to require you to debuff that target in order to scratch it, or buff your friends in order to keep them around, these ulterior roles will remain unnecessary.
And until the game requires you to bring a meat shield with you just to survive yourself, defenders will remain unnecessary.
But Great Weapon Fighters aren't Strikers.
I love my class. I have two maxed GWF's, a destroyer and a sentinel, both specialized along their obvious roles. But in the end, its important for me to make sure there's a difference in our Fighter heritage, and that of, say, the Barbarian.
The op is right: if they made us significant damage dealers, we would then be awesome and useful.
But this isn't the fix that is needed. There are other classes who are defined by this role. A class who is both very stout and does amazing damage will break the game.
Just look at Sentinel Tene GWF's. They break the game, further and farther beyond what should be designed. Because damage, and survivability, are the two key components to the existance of every character, it's necessary to sacrifice one for the other.
Barbarians are what I believe many of us want. A striker. Heavy hitting two-hand-wielding <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. But to try to push a very capable and exceptional class that does it's role amazingly well, such as the GWF, into being something that it is not? That is an error.
Ask for a new class that hits hard with two-handed weapons. Ask for fixes to make defenders useful in dungeon layout and ai design. Ask for the instigator line to get more control functions. Heck, I'd even agree with us getting more threat, so ask for that!
But asking for GWF's to be made even more powerful, or to be changed completely to be a class which they are not? That I cannot agree with and will continue to argue.
Ifn' at any point you want to see how well our class does when the mechanic of 'threat' isn't taken into the equation, look at PvP. We ARE exceptional. Threat is all we lack in PvE to be just as good as a GF, and with the appropriate builds we can get close. Surely we can take the damage just as well, and have better CC immunities on top of that.
But as long as defenders themselves are useless ... it's a moot point altogether.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Lots of points here that I'd love to address, but lets par it down to these three:
- Me and you disagree alot, Cyan, but we're both fighters at heart. I know, from my own experiences, that my destroyer GWF (built, geared and focused entirely on damage) is an amazing hitter. He lacks the defenses, but he simply wrecks what he runs into. But my sentinel GWF sits either 3rd or 4th on the damage totals, because he DOES lack that output. Since we are both aware that builds and equipment usage are part of the skills which define our classes (and are largely ignored skills by the ignorant and naive), I would argue that dismissing GWF damage potential from those properly fit and geared would be a mistake you seem to be making. Not all GF's are created equal, nor all GWF's.
- Secondly, and more to the portion I quoted: Players are generally wishy-washy, and float with what is considered 'flavor of the month'. I know a lot of GF's who hung up their shield when Module 2 hit due to the 'general consensus' that the class now sucked. Which was based almost entirely on opinions by players who didn't care for the class to begin with. So in my mind, any GWF who left because they lost damage output from a glitch, a glitch they relied on that gave the class more capabilities than ever intended, weren't very good GWF's to begin with, and won't be missed by the class as a whole.
- To agree with you, though, GWF threat is still rather low in comparison to GF. We still do amazing where threat isn't an issue, but when it relates to PvE, we have to work harder to get close. Too bad keeping and maintaining threat, with the current dungeon design, isn't too important.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
I understand hes mad that gf has no role now in groups, not that it had much of a role before module 2, but blatant denial trolling is kinda sad. Yeah gf needs some buffs, nobody will argue with you, but please exit the fantasy world where gf are dps kings and gwf are useless pity parties. now that gwf has the aggro abilities to hold threat over a gf it does kinda screw gf. Gwf tank better, deal 10x their dmg, and can hold aggro better too? Its really not fair to gf
I have to disagree with some of this. Namely because there isn't more focus into 'which' GWF we're talking about here. Destroyer or Sentinel (let's just skip instigators, which I'm not terribly familiar with yet).
Damage output for the GWF is so heavily dependent on feat choice. And unlike some of the other classes, our feat choices and paragon feat paths aren't limited to a 'PvP vs. PvE' build, but are more focused on our roles. So a focused built GWF can be exceptional at dealing damage or taking, or you could make a hybrid leaning either way.
Gear, on the other hand, doesn't judge who we are and define our capabilities near as much as it does in other classes. I have full sets of Titan, Vigilant, Valiant and Avatar, and run mixes of each as well. The overall design of our gear is to either boost our better attributes more (eating up into diminishing returns quickly), or shore up our weak spots to allow us more overall viability. I rarely see a pure Power build like you see with GF's that actually can do much of anything.
This is also why the capabilities of a 12k GWF versus a 14k GWF can actually be comparable. In fact, I've often observed that the higher the gear score for the GWF, the worse their capabilities, since they generally have to go with a Power build or focus on HP totals to get there.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
These players typically have 6-9k of their 12-14k gs tied directly into defense, deflect, and bonus hp, leaving no room for damage and are the source of the "sentinel=no dps" myth that is prevalent in the game. And sure, in those cases, higher gs generally doesn't equate to higher capabilities as the bulk of their gs is tied so deep into diminishing returns (namely Defense) that they only have 0.00x% more effectiveness out of the thousands of excess GS over their lower gs counterparts. The only thing that isn't in DR is the excess hp, but without the ability to deal damage to generate threat this is largely wasted as well. Unlike GF, GWFs, even IV sentinel, does not have enough innate threat generation to deal weak GF level dmg and still expect to hold aggro.
You mention power as if it's some GS boosting throwaway stat, as if GWF had some way to artificially inflate their GS by stacking power like Conq GFs, which isn't the case. All classes can take toughness and bump their gs a bit by stacking HP, granted GWFs benefit from this slightly more as they have armor sets with 2 piece +HP bonuses, but this only adds an overall +9% bonus to GS from the bonus hp. GWF do have a few GS boosting feats, namely +20% power / Defense and +25% Arp / Recovery. This is why you see GFs with 23k+ GS running around and GWFs topping out around 18k. If anything, the high gs/low performance GWFs you mention are utilizing extremely high Defense/hp builds and gaining bonus gs from those two stats, it has nothing to do with stacking power.
With module 2, namely artifacts and to a lesser extent the passive bonus from companions*, allows intelligently built characters to hit well into the DR softcaps of all relevant stats and then focus the remainder of their gear/enchants into Power/hp. Poorly built characters instead dump all of their gs into 1 specific area and then compound that error with feat choice. Built correctly characters can do well in all areas. GWFs, being the jack of all trades class, benefit the most from this allowing them to gear entirely for damage while still hitting the soft caps on defensive stats, allowing them to tank. After gear, feats are used to further specialize their role, whether it being AP/cooldowns (Destroyer), control/debuff (instigator), or threat/survivability (sentinel). All feat trees buff damage to various degrees.
* +stat companions should only be used until you have the gear/enchants to no longer benefit from the stats, in which case you should use passive +% pets.
I do love the subtle hints that those of us who ARE defensive spec'd are wanna be GF's, though. I would recommend checking out my post about fighters, in my sig, to get why I have to laugh a little.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
A gwf can spend half the ad, play half as well, but if properly speced can pwn in pvp with far less effort.
That said, with far less effort and less percision my 14.4k gwf can easily out damage and outlive my 18.1k gf.
The point is gets really have nothing to complain about. They are stupid overpowered and far easier to play than any other class....
That's said I appreciate the testing in this thread. In PvE the most important question is how good your cw is. If they control well it's an easy run, if they fail, it's a hard run.
Fundamentally as long as PvE is 90% trash mobs cw will rule. Hr do more damage but no control and die easy, tr do mor single target dps but die easy, gf cN never pull enough aggro to truly do their job, gwf is kind of the same issue, but more mobility and damage, and since good players have lifesteal and regen, dc is getting more expendable.
That said,with maybe the exception of five fights or so, the best party is 5cw. It makes me sad, but no. Other class can deal with the massive trash this game throws a t you.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Again this?
Can't you understand that PvE specced GWF deals as much damage as a same skill/gear CW in dungeons? That the GWF is the top damage dealer in the last dungeon? That the GWF is an invaluable asset to a party, speeding up trash clearing by a huge amount?
How can you say they deal 50% less damage than equally geared/skilled CW? This is just untrue.
And yes, I tested this, I have a good GWF friend that respecced from PvP tene build to radiant/Power/bleed hybrid build, and I've ran stuff with him. He does basically the same amount of damage as I do at same gear. Nowadays he probably does more since his gear has seen significant upgrading compared to mine.
Also if you're truly skilled&geared, and specced properly, you will deal DOUBLE the damage that a decent CW does.
OH yeah.
Let's not forget that besides the PvE damage supremacy which the GWF enjoys now, they also rule PvP.
So how in the world can you STILL be unhappy?!?
PS: Next time I post here I'll post ACT pictures, and gear screenshots as well hopefully, so all can see the DPS potential of the GWF and how good the class is.