Can't you understand that PvE specced GWF deals as much damage as a same skill/gear CW in dungeons? That the GWF is the top damage dealer in the last dungeon? That the GWF is an invaluable asset to a party, speeding up trash clearing by a huge amount?
How can you say they deal 50% less damage than equally geared/skilled CW? This is just untrue.
And yes, I tested this, I have a good GWF friend that respecced from PvP tene build to radiant/Power/bleed hybrid build, and I've ran stuff with him. He does basically the same amount of damage as I do at same gear. Nowadays he probably does more since his gear has seen significant upgrading compared to mine.
Also if you're truly skilled&geared, and specced properly, you will deal DOUBLE the damage that a decent CW does.
OH yeah.
Let's not forget that besides the PvE damage supremacy which the GWF enjoys now, they also rule PvP.
So how in the world can you STILL be unhappy?!?
PS: Next time I post here I'll post ACT pictures, and gear screenshots as well hopefully, so all can see the DPS potential of the GWF and how good the class is.
You have to realize I main CW, I started out as a GWF player but how many players boycott the class, either vocally dissing the class or passively saying oh we need a TR, CW or GF not a GWF. Now when I bring my CW into VT I can rush past the fighters gather up the mobs ensure that I am always DPSing 15 targets on every daily. And I get supported by the HR and/or 2nd Cw to make sure the mobs die fast enough so they never get out of control.
As a CW I have never ever been out damaged by a fighter.
As a GWF I out damage plenty of CW's, many CW's dont come close to my GWF's gear, and when I say gear I dont mean gear score I mean Enchant ranks, artifacts and tiers of gear. And I still see many CW's that enter VT with only 500 ARP or less. This is why CW's even high GS CW's deal poor damage. Because rthey are not at the top of there class. When I make statements that a GWF cannot deal as much damage as a CW I base it on the best GWF's and CW's I have seen and by my own play experiences. I do play with great CW;s when I play GWF and I play with great GWF's when I play CW. And my statement holds true no matter what class I'm playing.
As a GF I really dont play the focused DPS type, I'm not really a GF player but I have geared up my GF as well as any of my other toons. They way I play GF I never come close to my GWF's damage but that does not mean I have never seen the players that can do this. So I know GF's can.
How can I be unhappy?
The one and absolute Truth about the GWF makes me unhappy and it is simple.
As a GWF I cannot simply log in grab a party and play a dungeon like I can with any other class (Granted GF has some trouble getting groups as well but not as much as a GWF). Players do not want GWF in PvE groups so this makes me unhappy and it is the sole reason I abandoned the class to play CW. I dont care what is done to the GWF or to game content to make the class a popular choice in PvE but something must be done.
But I do realize the game must be balanced so all suggestions I make to make the GWF more popular will be focused on PVE elements that do not effect the PVP side. Threat + Area damage and control are at the top of the list.
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zardoz007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
You have a few chars. Many if not all your enchants are Rank 10s, Perfects etc. You have also built your chars SPECIFICALLY for one purpose. For example, you can take all AoE feats on the CW if you know that all you will do is PvE, and your damage will grow considerably, yet all of these would basically be almost lost for PvP.
Few however have the luxury to get even a single char at BiS everything, and if they happen to like BOTH PvE and PvE, then they need to find a compromise.
Hence, you see lower numbers from many other CWs... because their spec might not be ideal for PvE. I could name a quite a few feats that are just less than ideal or even do nothing in PvP.
The game also doesn't help a bit with its <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> lack of a dual spec, in 2014.
Now, about GWF damage. I don't like giving names, but you should try to run once with Valiant, it is impressive. To be honest, he is the only person that I think has specced his GWF purely for PvE. He has the same level of gear as you do, so it would be a fair contest. Valiant did 100% more damage than I did in a VT run. It is true, it was my first time doing Val legit on live and I died a few times, and I was the only CW which is messed up with all the mobs on you all the time, less casting and more running. Yet it still doesn't change the fact that he did huge amounts of damage. The only other guy that has very good damage might even be a sent Same level of gear like me, same damage in MC. You have better gear, full PvE spec, so you will most probably do more damage. In the end, a good played and specced GWF can do the same.
As for the PvP section, the Rays/EF/Shard on the head combination is not anything revolutionary. 3 leveled artifacts + spec might allow a CW to finally stack enough survivability to deal with the moments the GWF gets to you, dunno. I hope Gannicus will fraps the next match.
Now, Repel.
This could actually be useful... if it would not be so **** bugged. Out of 5 repels, 3 end up as just mere stuns, no pushback. Has lame damage as well.
But then again... Shard is just as bugged... all the reflections, all the disappearing while under CC and so on. Honorable mention: shard gets stuck in environment.
Yes I know Valiant, he has everything for gear. All rank 10, All perfects. he wants for nothing and his damage is on par with my lesser geared CW. A GWF always does very well when he out geares his entire party this is a fact.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2013
You don't need all that gear to do very good damage as a GWF. In the end, if you spec&gear properly for PvE, you should be able to come close to CWs with similar gear. CWs have control, GWFs have survivability, a wonderful setup.
Now.
You talk of people not wanting GWFs. I personally almost always choose them over TRs or GFs.
You cannot fix player ignorance and I cannot be responsible for that. Well played GWFs are awesome and an amazing asset to any party.
Anyway, I will return with a video, hopefully, and show how GWFs can perform on par with CWs in PvE situations.
GWFs don't need damage buffs. I can buy that threat may still need to be boosted. The only change that will make a difference is a complete overhaul of dungeon mechanics which make defenders/tanks actually needed.
You don't need all that gear to do very good damage as a GWF. In the end, if you spec&gear properly for PvE, you should be able to come close to CWs with similar gear. CWs have control, GWFs have survivability, a wonderful setup.
Now.
You talk of people not wanting GWFs. I personally almost always choose them over TRs or GFs.
You cannot fix player ignorance and I cannot be responsible for that. Well played GWFs are awesome and an amazing asset to any party.
Anyway, I will return with a video, hopefully, and show how GWFs can perform on par with CWs in PvE situations.
True. I've been fighting player opinion of GWF's for awhile now. Me and many others. Our class has always been strong and completely viable in most areas. Public opinion of us simply hasn't held up.
But whether, numerically, CW's typically out-damage GWF's of similar gear or not? That's something really only Cryptic could know, if they have the right tools setup to observe such things. We can only go off of our personal observances. And a great player who syncs well with his class, is going to have a completely different observation than one who doesn't. Which is why it seems cryptic doesn't listen too much to all the nerf calls and whatnot. So many exaggerated claims, with the bias of taking from others for no better reason than misunderstanding ... or worse, outright jealousy.
Reminds me of a certain, very vocal forum poster who talks about how GF are so far superior to GWF. His damage is always higher. His tank is better. Fair, it's his opinion, and hopefully an honest one. But my experiences against GF's have been completely contrary to his. I respect the class alot, but if it were up to me, GF's would get a major overhaul.
Course, I can't play a GF worth squat, either, so I recognize my OWN bias on that topic. No matter what they do, GF will probably always feel underpowered to me.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
remember that before "third" of our damage (pve) depended on ap build / slam
Slam was nerfed months ago. I didn't have problems being on top in damage most of the time just before the update without it. Maybe most people are bad and have no gear.
you are wrong. I always used and liked it. and what kind of math is that that for you 1/3 of the gwf dps depends uppon his deep gash?
Do I have to post this again?
Deep Gash was worthless before this update. That is a fact. http://i.imgur.com/xnXPZ6i.png
This is after update. http://i.imgur.com/M7bLybN.png
It's around 25% for me, but if you use a vorpal enchantment it becomes much higher.
GWFs don't need damage buffs. I can buy that threat may still need to be boosted. The only change that will make a difference is a complete overhaul of dungeon mechanics which make defenders/tanks actually needed.
I agree. Sure, one or two powers could get overhauled, but until they change the dungeons and make defenders valuable? We're still boned.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
my own experiences in pve. I went dg after patch, and i got surprised with the dps i got. i could beat a lot cws, and i was top dps in many matches.
but again, i am full rank 10s, and i use "dps" set for pvp and pve. i also use stone max level with ranks 10/9s and some others comps for more active bonus buff.
but then, i also had groups in which i would be ranked as last on DPS. being outdps for cws and rangers, in huge amounts.
other day I was in a DG, and there was a CW in my group, and he was kind of "medium geared". no wep enchantment, just ranks 7 stuff, and he still outdps for some little. so i think it is more about the game style and the spec of the cw.
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2013
prior to mod 2, SM destroyer using anim-cancel WMS I was equal to most CW in terms of dmg.
post patch as IV sentinel i've been outdamaged by 1 CW, and 3 GWFs. I'm 2x dmg of average CW, 10-50% more dmg than good cw.
I'm certain there are many cw that can easily top my dps, just haven't grouped with them yet. Of course CW has the power to destroy anyones damage, melee especially but also other CWs. This is typically what you see when 1 CW is way ahead of others in 2-3 CW groups. They time their encounter/daily powers to knock mobs away from others aoe, line up their attacks in a way that they can SS debuffed minions and deal 30-50k dmg on mobs that have 500hp remaining, oppressive for max aoe dmg but also so other CWs bowling balls miss and go straight through cus mobs aren't grouped anymore, etc.
In a pug it's whatever, probably bad players. But in a guild or other known experienced high geared proper pve spec'd party when I see 1 CW with huge dmg and the others are lacking I don't think, "wow that guys good" I think "Wow what a douch(e)bag". These types are overly reliant on multi-cw groups. They always run ahead trying to spread as much dmg as possible knowing that the other cw will catch up in time to cc mobs while their's are on cooldown. Put these players as the sole CW in a group and they spend the first half of the dungeon dead/running around, then the remaining half they are sitting in the back next to the DC letting someone mark/TR smoke/etc before going balls deep.
You cannot make it civil with esteena. That's all. But you can make it civil with mostly anybody else. Some people I like, some I don't, and some dislike me and so on. It is the Internet, and nobody truly cares in the end.
Also, there are but 2 cases of GWFs with good DPS performance that I know of, because the overwhelming majority of GWFs are PvP specced. I have no idea what spec Valiant uses, he has the best DPS out there from all players I've played with, regardless of class.
The other GWF that I play with has a sent, I believe, if he didn't respec. It used to be tene PvP equipped, but he wanted to be more competitive in PvE and switched for radiants and a bleed build. I can ask specifics if needed. With approx. the same gear, we ended up at the same damage dealt in a full MC run, me in front just a bit. Tenes actually made his damage A LOT lower in PvE.
So about my own damage now. I have BiS gear and perfect vorpal, and rank 8s, 2 epic artifacts, one missing. I'm pretty sure my companions are pretty <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, as I didn't upgrade them and didn't care for ideal setup as well, because indeed I do NOT care if I deal 2-3 less mils of damage, as long as I can clear everything legit.
In the video, I wear full defensive gear and use defensive setup that is leaving me without my best AoE, Sudden Storm, and with a severely gimped Conduit of Ice, because it's not on Mastery. Why? Because I want to kill the boss, not end up 1st on damage dealt, and I played with pug friends, not on voicechat and for fun. The DC I've seen the first time that run, lucky us he was competent.
Are there better CWs DPS-wise? Of course there are, never claimed otherwise. I didn't have the luxury to spec completely for either PvE or PvP, because I don't have time for multiple chars with multiple sets of gear, and I intend to never put a penny in this game either.
Anyway. I actually intend on asking my friend for an MC run (he doesn't like CN) and maybe fraps it, because images speak better than words.
Hi, just came to check out this thread.
1) I have no idea why Esteena linked our 16days old Draco kill video and started talking about my CW but yeah I go defensive stats on Draco as well. Same as you, I did not care about my dps so I just went full defensive gear set up and dealt ~13mil+ dmg (within that kill time). Other mages in the video kept their offensive pure dps gear on. The guy that came 2nd on chart uses same spec and similar enchants (Pvorp, rank8+) and dealt ~9mil+ dmg on Draco. 3rd uses Pvorp as well but different spec.
2) I usually end up tanking Draco since I have the highest TPS and end up dodging more, which forces me to go defensive. As you can see from the video, when I get hit by the hand I only took 2.7k dmg (+dmg res buff).
3) We farm CN almost everyday and we come up with different kill times (~2min 50sec, ~3min 40sec, ~5min 20sec, and ~8-10min).
4) We sometimes farm CN with different comp: TR in grp, and 4man Draco (GJ to EaZy, he wasnt even on TS and it was his 1st try in mod2). Havent tried it with a GWF and I would love to test it on my GWF (unfortunately PvP only).
5) I used to play without TS, pugged CN and now I made good friends in this game so we just hang out at EoA TeamSpeak (thanks to Trace!). We can still full clear CN without using TS.
6) I hear/heard a lot of complaints from other players that my dmg is up there because I use Pvorp. The answer is clearly NO, since I already streamed a kill with 3 Pvorp CWs in the grp with different dmg output. Many player that complained about my Pvorp now has a Pvorp and still there is no dmg difference after doing some runs with them. Pvorp does not let you turn into a rank 1 PvE CW. Want to do some real dps epeen contest? Get your rank1s in World of Warcraft using World of Logs.
7) Esteena wants me to play on my GF and see if I can outdps him vs his TR. Maybe one day I'll start playing on my GF again and kick his butt :-P
8) Hotpants uses Gvorp and I heard some funny stories from him about this one mage with a Pvorp. Who do you think it is?
9) I use a 5yrs old toaster PC. Any donations?
10) I remember Pers3phone calling me out saying "youre an egotistical animal". Did you check the stream video and see how energetic I am making loud noise? I don't even reply to Esteena when he talks about my dmg on the stream, I simply ignored him and answered my viewers question. If I am full of myself I probably bragged about how awesome my dmg was. LOL NW DMG SERIOUS BUSINESS /thread
You cannot make it civil with esteena. That's all. But you can make it civil with mostly anybody else. Some people I like, some I don't, and some dislike me and so on. It is the Internet, and nobody truly cares in the end.
I'm civil. You get angry when you get criticized or when someone disagrees with your opinions. Not sure why :P
So about my own damage now. I have BiS gear and perfect vorpal, and rank 8s, 2 epic artifacts, one missing. I'm pretty sure my companions are pretty <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, as I didn't upgrade them and didn't care for ideal setup as well, because indeed I do NOT care if I deal 2-3 less mils of damage, as long as I can clear everything legit.
I linked a video of damage floaters, not over all DPS.
And yes, we clear everything legit aswell.
And companions? who the hell upgrade these? Did you even try to go on preview shard and actually upgrade them and notice how minimal the differences is? i doubt you did since you are all talk.
Are there better CWs DPS-wise? Of course there are, never claimed otherwise. I didn't have the luxury to spec completely for either PvE or PvP, because I don't have time for multiple chars with multiple sets of gear, and I intend to never put a penny in this game either.
If you know there are better CWs, then why did you state that it is "untrue" that a skilled CW can out DPS a skilled PvE GWF based on your OWN damage, which is obviously, not a credible evidence?
Can't you understand that PvE specced GWF deals as much damage as a same skill/gear CW in dungeons? That the GWF is the top damage dealer in the last dungeon? That the GWF is an invaluable asset to a party, speeding up trash clearing by a huge amount?
How can you say they deal 50% less damage than equally geared/skilled CW? This is just untrue.
Anyway. I actually intend on asking my friend for an MC run (he doesn't like CN) and maybe fraps it, because images speak better than words.
You are starting to contradicting your own words. Perhaps think next time before you start stating things as "facts".
Every good CW in this thread already stated that what you said is unrealistic, not sure what are you still arguing about.
In a pug it's whatever, probably bad players. But in a guild or other known experienced high geared proper pve spec'd party when I see 1 CW with huge dmg and the others are lacking I don't think, "wow that guys good" I think "Wow what a douch(e)bag". These types are overly reliant on multi-cw groups. They always run ahead trying to spread as much dmg as possible knowing that the other cw will catch up in time to cc mobs while their's are on cooldown. Put these players as the sole CW in a group and they spend the first half of the dungeon dead/running around, then the remaining half they are sitting in the back next to the DC letting someone mark/TR smoke/etc before going balls deep.
I tend to disagree about that.
If you are a defensively geared player and able to go solo a pack of mobs, then you aren't a douch bag for doing so. You are actually helping the party by taking the initial burst from the pack of mobs and even kill some during the process.
However, if you just go there and start hitting it for some DPS and start slowing the party progress down then you are 100% correct.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2013
I'm sorry, but this is just dumb.
There is just no point arguing with you, because you invent all kinds of strawmen and then deconstruct those, and after your "success", you post as if you actually argued successfully against what I was actually saying. It is all a huge loss of time.
The point is:
- GWF is capable of keeping up and even be better than most CWs, in damage dealt, at similar gear levels. This is based on my experience, indeed. So what? I posted even logs in the past, because when I argue with the cucumber people, it comes down to this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Again, are there CWs who deal more damage? Yeah, so what? Valiant dealt more damage as well, double actually. Considering I wasn't asleep and my gear is good, this is pretty much saying another GWF with similar spec and not-so-good gear can perform very good still.
None of us has averages on damage for overall population, so in the end, all experiences will be personal in nature. "Every" CW in this thread are stox and bizzy lol, who probably deal more damage than 99% of the population of the game, have everything BiS and specced full PvE.
What do you expect? Of course they cannot find people that deal the same damage as they do. Even my affirmations are based on only 2 cases, because as I said, most GWFs spec PvP, then complain that they are not desirable for PvE/not deal enough damage etc.
So this is the "fact": a well played CW or GWF at similar gear are pretty similar in damage - according to my experiences.
You wanna disagree? Sure, whatever, who cares.
I actually wanted to post a MC run video with ACT logs as well, but not worth the effort. Because, in the end, why do I care? I still get my parties, I still clear my dungeons, I still make my AD. So why should I bother if some class feels left out, right?
All I was trying to explain in all these posts is the fact that GWFs can be awesome (in PvE as well as PvP), that's all. Whatever. See you in the next topic where you decide to stalk me.
There is just no point arguing with you, because you invent all kinds of strawmen and then deconstruct those, and after your "success", you post as if you actually argued successfully against what I was actually saying. It is all a huge loss of time.
The point is:
- GWF is capable of keeping up and even be better than most CWs, in damage dealt, at similar gear levels. This is based on my experience, indeed. So what? I posted even logs in the past, because when I argue with the cucumber people, it comes down to this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Again, are there CWs who deal more damage? Yeah, so what? Valiant dealt more damage as well, double actually. Considering I wasn't asleep and my gear is good, this is pretty much saying another GWF with similar spec and not-so-good gear can perform very good still.
None of us has averages on damage for overall population, so in the end, all experiences will be personal in nature. "Every" CW in this thread are stox and bizzy lol, who probably deal more damage than 99% of the population of the game, have everything BiS and specced full PvE.
What do you expect? Of course they cannot find people that deal the same damage as they do. Even my affirmations are based on only 2 cases, because as I said, most GWFs spec PvP, then complain that they are not desirable for PvE/not deal enough damage etc.
So this is the "fact": a well played CW or GWF at similar gear are pretty similar in damage - according to my experiences.
You wanna disagree? Sure, whatever, who cares.
I actually wanted to post a MC run video with ACT logs as well, but not worth the effort. Because, in the end, why do I care? I still get my parties, I still clear my dungeons, I still make my AD. So why should I bother if some class feels left out, right?
All I was trying to explain in all these posts is the fact that GWFs can be awesome (in PvE as well as PvP), that's all. Whatever. See you in the next topic where you decide to stalk me.
1) Hey dont say Cucumber people because I wasnt even trying to pick on you. I fully explained what I was using on Draco and you can even check it on my stream.
2) Yes, my CW is for PvE only. Not quite close to BiS yet since im going after Valindra's artifact.
3) I don't trust my dps till I see something similar to World of Logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Siege_of_Orgrimmar/dps/
4) You should'nt care too much if a GWF comes close to your dmg. You should think about how you can double his dmg instead. Even in WoW they have a program called Simcraft, program that tells you which class and spec does the most dmg in THEORY. Look at the Sim first then look at WoLs, you will see that results are completely different. Spriest is ranked at the bottom of the chart on Sim, but there is always great Spriest players that will rank world top 10 (all class) in dps. http://simulationcraft.org/541/Raid_T16H.html#player12
5) GWF, GF, TR, and CW... all of them are awesome. Just play it till you get bored.
1) Hey dont say Cucumber people because I wasnt even trying to pick on you. I fully explained what I was using on Draco and you can even check it on my stream.
2) Yes, my CW is for PvE only. Not quite close to BiS yet since im going after Valindra's artifact.
3) I don't really trust my dps till I see something similar to World of Logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Siege_of_Orgrimmar/dps/
4) You should'nt care too much if a GWF comes close to your dmg. You should think about how you can double his dmg instead. Even in WoW they have a program called Simcraft, program that tells you which class and spec does the most dmg in THEORY. Look at the Sim then look at WoLs, you will see that results are completely different. Spriest are at the bottom of the chart on Sim, but there is always great Spriest players that will rank world top 10 (all class) in dps. http://simulationcraft.org/541/Raid_T16H.html#player12
5) GWF, GF, TR, and CW... all of them are awesome. Just play it till you get bored.
Fine. Taking it back. Usually if I have an argument with esteena, he has his buddy to take his part, so this is where it came from
I used simcraft as well. WoW made things way easier and more structured. But for now, we deal with what we have, the raw Damage Dealt numbers and ACT.
To be honest I've yet to see GFs and TRs come close to CWs though. But GWFs are another story. And I actually like it this way, I'm happy when a class is improved and it does well, why not, these are not posts cause I don't like it, quite the opposite. I'm the one and only person in these forums that continually said for example that TRs need a damage buff/new AoEs to keep up in damage, as IMO any class that has a DPS role should be able to compete for the top spot. But some people are still unhappy with their GWFs, and in the place the class is now in, I find it a bit ridiculous.
What could Hot Pants tell you lol? I've only did one VT with him, we didn't even talk, everybody did their job and we left. He's a good CW. There's no shortage of good CWs in this game.
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zardoz007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
If you are a defensively geared player and able to go solo a pack of mobs, then you aren't a douch bag for doing so. You are actually helping the party by taking the initial burst from the pack of mobs and even kill some during the process.
However, if you just go there and start hitting it for some DPS and start slowing the party progress down then you are 100% correct.
This is exactly my approach to CW when I play it I use defensive gear on my CW when I play like this. The gear is also a boon when in difficult boss fights. And really I started out as GWF because I loved jumping into the middle of the fray and crushing everything around me. Apply the same concept to the CW and you come out twice as effective.
If I end up being sole CW I don't play like this and I focus more on control because that is what helps the party more, and still I can top damage charts if not horrible crush them.
But honestly I'm growing bored with CW I miss my GWF but still, with all the playing I have been doing lately so I can make educated arguments in this, my current series of debates has left me depressed and disappointment that all massive hate against the GWF still persists to this day, and even though it is among the smallest population of players out there it is still far too difficult to get a group as GWF. And I have a really High GS on GWF so I dont really know how the low GS GWF players can put up with this.
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zardoz007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
There is just no point arguing with you, because you invent all kinds of strawmen and then deconstruct those, and after your "success", you post as if you actually argued successfully against what I was actually saying. It is all a huge loss of time.
The point is:
- GWF is capable of keeping up and even be better than most CWs, in damage dealt, at similar gear levels. This is based on my experience, indeed. So what? I posted even logs in the past, because when I argue with the cucumber people, it comes down to this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Again, are there CWs who deal more damage? Yeah, so what? Valiant dealt more damage as well, double actually. Considering I wasn't asleep and my gear is good, this is pretty much saying another GWF with similar spec and not-so-good gear can perform very good still.
None of us has averages on damage for overall population, so in the end, all experiences will be personal in nature. "Every" CW in this thread are stox and bizzy lol, who probably deal more damage than 99% of the population of the game, have everything BiS and specced full PvE.
What do you expect? Of course they cannot find people that deal the same damage as they do. Even my affirmations are based on only 2 cases, because as I said, most GWFs spec PvP, then complain that they are not desirable for PvE/not deal enough damage etc.
So this is the "fact": a well played CW or GWF at similar gear are pretty similar in damage - according to my experiences.
You wanna disagree? Sure, whatever, who cares.
I actually wanted to post a MC run video with ACT logs as well, but not worth the effort. Because, in the end, why do I care? I still get my parties, I still clear my dungeons, I still make my AD. So why should I bother if some class feels left out, right?
All I was trying to explain in all these posts is the fact that GWFs can be awesome (in PvE as well as PvP), that's all. Whatever. See you in the next topic where you decide to stalk me.
You see any class can be awesome when backup up by incredible gear and the perfect spec. My arguments go along the lines that the Awesome GWF cannot hold a candle to the Awesome CW and I foresee the awesome HR also being added to this list. I've see in zone chat today players bashing the GWF now that the HR is here. The GWF is now useless. I know this is not true. GWF are struggling but not useless not as useless as they were immediately after live when they had no damage and no survivability.
Pers3phone, plz understand this well it is your experience that GWF are fine. The majority of players disagree with you. It is great that there are players like you out there promoting the GWF but you are few and far between. I ask you take a moment to look at our arguments and realize the only reason we are making these arguments is so the devs make some changes to the GWF to make it a more popular class specifically in PvE.
Your arguments only hurt our efforts. It has been a struggle I have taken since the game went live. And I have recently had the encouragement to take another swing at the GWF situation in full force. Only because of the Battle Furor buff made to the GWF. Something that seemed to relate to the discussions made on the forums and something I promoted. It told me the devs are listening to us if they are taking there sweet time to do anything about it.
So I ask you as a CW player do you think any buffs the GWF could receive would hurt your play experience at all? Would the GWF being slightly more tanky and/or damaging negatively effect your play style. Would you be pleased as all the other GWF players out there to see the GWF player perform a bit better than it does in PVE right now. It would only further reinforce your position that the GWF is a strong class, and then more players would also side on you with this until we find a common ground.
Until then the GWF struggles and keeps struggling, but hopefully one day it will stand on equal ground with the other classes.
Fine. Taking it back. Usually if I have an argument with esteena, he has his buddy to take his part, so this is where it came from
I used simcraft as well. WoW made things way easier and more structured. But for now, we deal with what we have, the raw Damage Dealt numbers and ACT.
To be honest I've yet to see GFs and TRs come close to CWs though. But GWFs are another story. And I actually like it this way, I'm happy when a class is improved and it does well, why not, these are not posts cause I don't like it, quite the opposite. I'm the one and only person in these forums that continually said for example that TRs need a damage buff/new AoEs to keep up in damage, as IMO any class that has a DPS role should be able to compete for the top spot. But some people are still unhappy with their GWFs, and in the place the class is now in, I find it a bit ridiculous.
What could Hot Pants tell you lol? I've only did one VT with him, we didn't even talk, everybody did their job and we left. He's a good CW. There's no shortage of good CWs in this game.
1) When you argue with Esteena you need data. If your numbers are off he'll pick on you. If your argument is invalid he will tell you that it's invalid.
2) I have no idea about TRs in mod2, since Esteena stopped playing on his TR in mod2 and I already stopped playing on it during BETA. Before mod2, their single target dps was up there, last time I checked the logs. Its kinda known that Esteena trashed many Pvorp wizards (specced terribly?) back then. Same for me, when I was playing on my GF with a GPF. Anyways, doesn't really matter if a TR or GF outdps a CW tbh. Be the best at your class, thats all I can say.
3) GWF dps? I did some dungeon on my pvp specced sent but the dmg output was amazing even if im not specced for PvE. Not sure if my GWF can come close to my CW tho... but seriously the dmg output looks promising. If I get bored, I'll switch to PvE (already have 4set Avatar) and test it.
Pers3phone, plz understand this well it is your experience that GWF are fine. The majority of players disagree with you. It is great that there are players like you out there promoting the GWF but you are few and far between. I ask you take a moment to look at our arguments and realize the only reason we are making these arguments is so the devs make some changes to the GWF to make it a more popular class specifically in PvE.
Your arguments only hurt our efforts. It has been a struggle I have taken since the game went live. And I have recently had the encouragement to take another swing at the GWF situation in full force. Only because of the Battle Furor buff made to the GWF. Something that seemed to relate to the discussions made on the forums and something I promoted. It told me the devs are listening to us if they are taking there sweet time to do anything about it.
So I ask you as a CW player do you think any buffs the GWF could receive would hurt your play experience at all? Would the GWF being slightly more tanky and/or damaging negatively effect your play style. Would you be pleased as all the other GWF players out there to see the GWF player perform a bit better than it does in PVE right now. It would only further reinforce your position that the GWF is a strong class, and then more players would also side on you with this until we find a common ground.
Until then the GWF struggles and keeps struggling, but hopefully one day it will stand on equal ground with the other classes.
I'm not sure how to respond.
As you seen, I like GWFs and would choose them over other classes. I am quite unsure why you would need even more damage and more survivability, it doesn't seem right to me, because the class can be very efficient. Problem is that in this game, PvE and PvP have no separation. If you have even more awesomeness, your class will rule in PvP even more than it does now.
But I won't argue against this, fine by me, ask for even more buffing, continue to say that the GWF is useless and so on. I actually wanted to come with numbers, logs and a video to support what I am saying, but I won't bother with it.
Feel free to lobby for more power for GWF, I won't interfere any longer.
GWF dps? I did some dungeon on my pvp specced sent but the dmg output was amazing even if im not specced for PvE. Not sure if my GWF can come close to my CW tho... but seriously the dmg output looks promising. If I get bored, I'll switch to PvE and test it.
Thing is, if you respec the GWF as a full PvE DPS machine, how will the situation look then? If you give the GWF the same type of gear that you have with the CW etc.
You see any class can be awesome when backup up by incredible gear and the perfect spec. My arguments go along the lines that the Awesome GWF cannot hold a candle to the Awesome CW and I foresee the awesome HR also being added to this list. I've see in zone chat today players bashing the GWF now that the HR is here. The GWF is now useless. I know this is not true. GWF are struggling but not useless not as useless as they were immediately after live when they had no damage and no survivability.
This is a joke, right?
I don't recall GWF ever being useless in either PvP/PvE, even before Module 2. You're most likely either someone who:
i) Has the right spec but poorly geared
ii) Specs totally wrong and expects to be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
iii) Judge from LFG chat where <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> look for multiple CWs instead of other classes
It's weird because some Sentinel GWFs themselves even express how broken OP the class spec is with the new artifacts and all sort of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, in PvP. And as for PvE, Deep Gash now deals considerably high DPS especially if you have Vorpal enchantment.
Pers3phone, plz understand this well it is your experience that GWF are fine. The majority of players disagree with you. It is great that there are players like you out there promoting the GWF but you are few and far between. I ask you take a moment to look at our arguments and realize the only reason we are making these arguments is so the devs make some changes to the GWF to make it a more popular class specifically in PvE.
Majority of players? Yourself and some fail GWFs? Or just the few which posted in this thread?
If you're expecting to have the "best of both worlds" build, continue daydreaming till the day Dual Spec actually comes out, if it ever will that is.
So I ask you as a CW player do you think any buffs the GWF could receive would hurt your play experience at all? Would the GWF being slightly more tanky and/or damaging negatively effect your play style. Would you be pleased as all the other GWF players out there to see the GWF player perform a bit better than it does in PVE right now. It would only further reinforce your position that the GWF is a strong class, and then more players would also side on you with this until we find a common ground.
If you think CW is more "OP" than GWF, go play one instead of whining for buffs every single patch. Otherwise, continue playing GWF as it is now or quit the game. Simple.
If i want to go make a dungeon run, what should i choose:
1- A class with high DoT damage, needs determination for survivability with considerable AoE damage.
OR
2- a class that can silence a pack of mobs instantly and then blow them up with a shard or throw them off a cliff perhaps. Not to mention that eye of the storm procs 90% of the time causing you to deal huge amount of critical hits.
CW's trash clearing > GWF's trash clearing. Talking about efficiency and speed, or to be more accurate, damage per SECOND.
Ofcourse, if the mob take longer to die my GWF's deep gash will deal a considerable amount of damage but why would i ever take a class depending on that feat ( 30% of my DPS when i parsed it) if i can take a class who can kill a pack of mobs instantly?
Key word here is Damage per second:
The amount of damage you can deal in a certain amount of time. Time is a factor, if you can clear 100 mobs 3 seconds and another class clears it in 10 seconds it means your class has higher DPS.
Thing is, if you respec the GWF as a full PvE DPS machine, how will the situation look then? If you give the GWF the same type of gear that you have with the CW etc.
Need to go through some testings:
- Test the dmg output of CW daily,encounter and AW vs. GWF daily, enc and AW: Sing/OF vs. Spinning-Strike/AoS, ChillingCloud vs. WMS (SM) /TR (IV)
- Target cap on each encounters and dailies
- HV vs. Avatar
- Debuff (%) on target
- Have to check on Deep Gash DoT dmg vs. CoI dmg
etc
Atm, I really can't tell you about PvE GWF's dps. Only thing that im concerned about is how am I going to counter the CW's OF and Shard dmg as a GWF.
Slam was nerfed months ago. I didn't have problems being on top in damage most of the time just before the update without it. Maybe most people are bad and have no gear.
Do I have to post this again?
Deep Gash was worthless before this update. That is a fact. http://i.imgur.com/xnXPZ6i.png
This is after update. http://i.imgur.com/M7bLybN.png
It's around 25% for me, but if you use a vorpal enchantment it becomes much higher.
I do not quite understand the post, but repeating: In the beta, much of the damage was due to slam / battle awareness that was perhaps the unique ability to massive damage (at least for me who had built a 'perma slam ") . Now we have the deep gash that "democratized" the damage class, but not cease to be a disproportionate ability. The class always had a certain disproportion, hence the power of the bleed does not impress me.
in fact, it is something like "back to normal".
but back to my point, the two videos show something that is the great turning point of my personal need. is the logistics of battle. see how the 2 cw exploit the flanks, closing the spaces and making the most of the combat advantage.
there is control / damage, yes. but is this hygienic posture battle that matters to me now.
is very tricky to do that today with gwf / destroyer today, at least for me, due to 3 sec.
I don't recall GWF ever being useless in either PvP/PvE, even before Module 2. You're most likely either someone who:
i) Has the right spec but poorly geared
ii) Specs totally wrong and expects to be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
iii) Judge from LFG chat where <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> look for multiple CWs instead of other classes
It's weird because some Sentinel GWFs themselves even express how broken OP the class spec is with the new artifacts and all sort of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, in PvP. And as for PvE, Deep Gash now deals considerably high DPS especially if you have Vorpal enchantment.
Majority of players? Yourself and some fail GWFs? Or just the few which posted in this thread?
If you're expecting to have the "best of both worlds" build, continue daydreaming till the day Dual Spec actually comes out, if it ever will that is.
If you think CW is more "OP" than GWF, go play one instead of whining for buffs every single patch. Otherwise, continue playing GWF as it is now or quit the game. Simple.
I hate seeing ignorant plays like you come in to whine and complain. First read the Op's thread he says he is main CW and would like to play GWF again but he has a hard time getting a group. I'm not the least surprised by that I rarely ever invite GWF's to my groups I play GF I dont need GWF's in my groups I fulfill that role and those that know me would rather have my GF in a group over any GWF they can trust I'll bring along massive damage and tankiness. With a GWF you never know what your going to get.
So Yes I completely believe that the majority of players do not want a GWF in there groups when GF and TR are great options to be the groups sole melee. Sometimes I do party with TR's but most often I'm the sole melee.
I guess I've been slacking in ma duties lately I gotta get back on top of the GF bandwagon with my catch phrase.
I hate seeing ignorant plays like you come in to whine and complain. First read the Op's thread he says he is main CW and would like to play GWF again but he has a hard time getting a group. I'm not the least surprised by that I rarely ever invite GWF's to my groups I play GF I dont need GWF's in my groups I fulfill that role and those that know me would rather have my GF in a group over any GWF they can trust I'll bring along massive damage and tankiness.
First of all, I am a player, not a play. Then, take a chill pill and look who's whining.
So you rarely invite GWFs into your groups, good to know, but fact is I don't give a shet. You don't represent the whole playerbase ffs.
Time is a factor, if you can clear 100 mobs 3 seconds and another class clears it in 10 seconds it means your class has higher DPS.
This being the critical point.
It doesn't matter if a GWF has the same or even somewhat higher DPS than a CW if the CW can instant-kill enemy mobs by pushing them off a cliff. Given that CWs (especially stacked) can also effectively render mobs harmless to the team, there is a reason why, except perhaps at the highest levels when you utterly out-gear a dungeon, stacking CWs is the most effective response to the current add-fest endgame.
You see any class can be awesome when backup up by incredible gear and the perfect spec. My arguments go along the lines that the Awesome GWF cannot hold a candle to the Awesome CW and I foresee the awesome HR also being added to this list. I've see in zone chat today players bashing the GWF now that the HR is here. The GWF is now useless. I know this is not true. GWF are struggling but not useless not as useless as they were immediately after live when they had no damage and no survivability.
Pers3phone, plz understand this well it is your experience that GWF are fine. The majority of players disagree with you. It is great that there are players like you out there promoting the GWF but you are few and far between. I ask you take a moment to look at our arguments and realize the only reason we are making these arguments is so the devs make some changes to the GWF to make it a more popular class specifically in PvE.
It's really tough to make an argument on behalf of "the majority" when you don't have stats to back that up. Who complains on the forum doesn't in any way equate to a majority of any kind.
That being said, I'm going to suggest that you check out some of the excellent guides for GWF's. Kolatmaster's are my personal favorites, and I respecced my Half-Orc GWF into his Leroy Jenkins Sentinel build for module two. I was a little skeptical, particularly since he outgears me significantly. But wow, it's fantastic. My GWF was fun beforehand, but not as effective as most of my other characters in different ways, but now he really shines in both solo and group play.
I get the fact that you want things changed, and I am sure that you have your reasons for that. But fighters are doing really well now and I don't see that being any worse. Try the last fight of Aberrant Assault with a GF or GWF, it's not pretty (unless you have five CW's specced for control with fantastic communication and coordination, then it's comedy - until someone makes a mistake and it becomes a wipe).
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
If i want to go make a dungeon run, what should i choose:
I would choose whoever is going to be the most fun to play with, which isn't the same thing as high DPS. When I don't run with guildies, I PUG a lot and I'd much rather play with a cautious and solid GWF than a zerging CW.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
ok my Sent GWF name is gelflin@sunsfire2004 16k gs I will dps race any cw or gwf to prove gwf dps is fine would be mc 3/3 legit no exploiting runs as that's what I am farming at min send tell if interested in a race.
and plz leave feedback on out come after you race me
pers3phone is a good cw not low dps one for the record.
Comments
You have to realize I main CW, I started out as a GWF player but how many players boycott the class, either vocally dissing the class or passively saying oh we need a TR, CW or GF not a GWF. Now when I bring my CW into VT I can rush past the fighters gather up the mobs ensure that I am always DPSing 15 targets on every daily. And I get supported by the HR and/or 2nd Cw to make sure the mobs die fast enough so they never get out of control.
As a CW I have never ever been out damaged by a fighter.
As a GWF I out damage plenty of CW's, many CW's dont come close to my GWF's gear, and when I say gear I dont mean gear score I mean Enchant ranks, artifacts and tiers of gear. And I still see many CW's that enter VT with only 500 ARP or less. This is why CW's even high GS CW's deal poor damage. Because rthey are not at the top of there class. When I make statements that a GWF cannot deal as much damage as a CW I base it on the best GWF's and CW's I have seen and by my own play experiences. I do play with great CW;s when I play GWF and I play with great GWF's when I play CW. And my statement holds true no matter what class I'm playing.
As a GF I really dont play the focused DPS type, I'm not really a GF player but I have geared up my GF as well as any of my other toons. They way I play GF I never come close to my GWF's damage but that does not mean I have never seen the players that can do this. So I know GF's can.
How can I be unhappy?
The one and absolute Truth about the GWF makes me unhappy and it is simple.
As a GWF I cannot simply log in grab a party and play a dungeon like I can with any other class (Granted GF has some trouble getting groups as well but not as much as a GWF). Players do not want GWF in PvE groups so this makes me unhappy and it is the sole reason I abandoned the class to play CW. I dont care what is done to the GWF or to game content to make the class a popular choice in PvE but something must be done.
But I do realize the game must be balanced so all suggestions I make to make the GWF more popular will be focused on PVE elements that do not effect the PVP side. Threat + Area damage and control are at the top of the list.
Yes I know Valiant, he has everything for gear. All rank 10, All perfects. he wants for nothing and his damage is on par with my lesser geared CW. A GWF always does very well when he out geares his entire party this is a fact.
Now.
You talk of people not wanting GWFs. I personally almost always choose them over TRs or GFs.
You cannot fix player ignorance and I cannot be responsible for that. Well played GWFs are awesome and an amazing asset to any party.
Anyway, I will return with a video, hopefully, and show how GWFs can perform on par with CWs in PvE situations.
True. I've been fighting player opinion of GWF's for awhile now. Me and many others. Our class has always been strong and completely viable in most areas. Public opinion of us simply hasn't held up.
But whether, numerically, CW's typically out-damage GWF's of similar gear or not? That's something really only Cryptic could know, if they have the right tools setup to observe such things. We can only go off of our personal observances. And a great player who syncs well with his class, is going to have a completely different observation than one who doesn't. Which is why it seems cryptic doesn't listen too much to all the nerf calls and whatnot. So many exaggerated claims, with the bias of taking from others for no better reason than misunderstanding ... or worse, outright jealousy.
Reminds me of a certain, very vocal forum poster who talks about how GF are so far superior to GWF. His damage is always higher. His tank is better. Fair, it's his opinion, and hopefully an honest one. But my experiences against GF's have been completely contrary to his. I respect the class alot, but if it were up to me, GF's would get a major overhaul.
Course, I can't play a GF worth squat, either, so I recognize my OWN bias on that topic. No matter what they do, GF will probably always feel underpowered to me.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Mospeda 21k GF
Deep Gash was worthless before this update. That is a fact.
http://i.imgur.com/xnXPZ6i.png
This is after update.
http://i.imgur.com/M7bLybN.png
It's around 25% for me, but if you use a vorpal enchantment it becomes much higher.
I agree. Sure, one or two powers could get overhauled, but until they change the dungeons and make defenders valuable? We're still boned.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
but again, i am full rank 10s, and i use "dps" set for pvp and pve. i also use stone max level with ranks 10/9s and some others comps for more active bonus buff.
but then, i also had groups in which i would be ranked as last on DPS. being outdps for cws and rangers, in huge amounts.
other day I was in a DG, and there was a CW in my group, and he was kind of "medium geared". no wep enchantment, just ranks 7 stuff, and he still outdps for some little. so i think it is more about the game style and the spec of the cw.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
post patch as IV sentinel i've been outdamaged by 1 CW, and 3 GWFs. I'm 2x dmg of average CW, 10-50% more dmg than good cw.
I'm certain there are many cw that can easily top my dps, just haven't grouped with them yet. Of course CW has the power to destroy anyones damage, melee especially but also other CWs. This is typically what you see when 1 CW is way ahead of others in 2-3 CW groups. They time their encounter/daily powers to knock mobs away from others aoe, line up their attacks in a way that they can SS debuffed minions and deal 30-50k dmg on mobs that have 500hp remaining, oppressive for max aoe dmg but also so other CWs bowling balls miss and go straight through cus mobs aren't grouped anymore, etc.
In a pug it's whatever, probably bad players. But in a guild or other known experienced high geared proper pve spec'd party when I see 1 CW with huge dmg and the others are lacking I don't think, "wow that guys good" I think "Wow what a douch(e)bag". These types are overly reliant on multi-cw groups. They always run ahead trying to spread as much dmg as possible knowing that the other cw will catch up in time to cc mobs while their's are on cooldown. Put these players as the sole CW in a group and they spend the first half of the dungeon dead/running around, then the remaining half they are sitting in the back next to the DC letting someone mark/TR smoke/etc before going balls deep.
Hi, just came to check out this thread.
1) I have no idea why Esteena linked our 16days old Draco kill video and started talking about my CW but yeah I go defensive stats on Draco as well. Same as you, I did not care about my dps so I just went full defensive gear set up and dealt ~13mil+ dmg (within that kill time). Other mages in the video kept their offensive pure dps gear on. The guy that came 2nd on chart uses same spec and similar enchants (Pvorp, rank8+) and dealt ~9mil+ dmg on Draco. 3rd uses Pvorp as well but different spec.
2) I usually end up tanking Draco since I have the highest TPS and end up dodging more, which forces me to go defensive. As you can see from the video, when I get hit by the hand I only took 2.7k dmg (+dmg res buff).
3) We farm CN almost everyday and we come up with different kill times (~2min 50sec, ~3min 40sec, ~5min 20sec, and ~8-10min).
4) We sometimes farm CN with different comp: TR in grp, and 4man Draco (GJ to EaZy, he wasnt even on TS and it was his 1st try in mod2). Havent tried it with a GWF and I would love to test it on my GWF (unfortunately PvP only).
5) I used to play without TS, pugged CN and now I made good friends in this game so we just hang out at EoA TeamSpeak (thanks to Trace!). We can still full clear CN without using TS.
6) I hear/heard a lot of complaints from other players that my dmg is up there because I use Pvorp. The answer is clearly NO, since I already streamed a kill with 3 Pvorp CWs in the grp with different dmg output. Many player that complained about my Pvorp now has a Pvorp and still there is no dmg difference after doing some runs with them. Pvorp does not let you turn into a rank 1 PvE CW. Want to do some real dps epeen contest? Get your rank1s in World of Warcraft using World of Logs.
7) Esteena wants me to play on my GF and see if I can outdps him vs his TR. Maybe one day I'll start playing on my GF again and kick his butt :-P
8) Hotpants uses Gvorp and I heard some funny stories from him about this one mage with a Pvorp. Who do you think it is?
9) I use a 5yrs old toaster PC. Any donations?
10) I remember Pers3phone calling me out saying "youre an egotistical animal". Did you check the stream video and see how energetic I am making loud noise? I don't even reply to Esteena when he talks about my dmg on the stream, I simply ignored him and answered my viewers question. If I am full of myself I probably bragged about how awesome my dmg was. LOL NW DMG SERIOUS BUSINESS /thread
PvP GWF - BizzyBedBug
PvE GF (salvaged)
PvE TR (salvaged)
GWF PvP/CW PvE @ http://www.twitch.tv/bizzyplusplus/
I'm civil. You get angry when you get criticized or when someone disagrees with your opinions. Not sure why :P
I linked a video of damage floaters, not over all DPS.
And yes, we clear everything legit aswell.
And companions? who the hell upgrade these? Did you even try to go on preview shard and actually upgrade them and notice how minimal the differences is? i doubt you did since you are all talk.
If you know there are better CWs, then why did you state that it is "untrue" that a skilled CW can out DPS a skilled PvE GWF based on your OWN damage, which is obviously, not a credible evidence?
You are starting to contradicting your own words. Perhaps think next time before you start stating things as "facts".
Every good CW in this thread already stated that what you said is unrealistic, not sure what are you still arguing about.
I tend to disagree about that.
If you are a defensively geared player and able to go solo a pack of mobs, then you aren't a douch bag for doing so. You are actually helping the party by taking the initial burst from the pack of mobs and even kill some during the process.
However, if you just go there and start hitting it for some DPS and start slowing the party progress down then you are 100% correct.
There is just no point arguing with you, because you invent all kinds of strawmen and then deconstruct those, and after your "success", you post as if you actually argued successfully against what I was actually saying. It is all a huge loss of time.
The point is:
- GWF is capable of keeping up and even be better than most CWs, in damage dealt, at similar gear levels. This is based on my experience, indeed. So what? I posted even logs in the past, because when I argue with the cucumber people, it comes down to this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Again, are there CWs who deal more damage? Yeah, so what? Valiant dealt more damage as well, double actually. Considering I wasn't asleep and my gear is good, this is pretty much saying another GWF with similar spec and not-so-good gear can perform very good still.
None of us has averages on damage for overall population, so in the end, all experiences will be personal in nature. "Every" CW in this thread are stox and bizzy lol, who probably deal more damage than 99% of the population of the game, have everything BiS and specced full PvE.
What do you expect? Of course they cannot find people that deal the same damage as they do. Even my affirmations are based on only 2 cases, because as I said, most GWFs spec PvP, then complain that they are not desirable for PvE/not deal enough damage etc.
So this is the "fact": a well played CW or GWF at similar gear are pretty similar in damage - according to my experiences.
You wanna disagree? Sure, whatever, who cares.
I actually wanted to post a MC run video with ACT logs as well, but not worth the effort. Because, in the end, why do I care? I still get my parties, I still clear my dungeons, I still make my AD. So why should I bother if some class feels left out, right?
All I was trying to explain in all these posts is the fact that GWFs can be awesome (in PvE as well as PvP), that's all. Whatever. See you in the next topic where you decide to stalk me.
1) Hey dont say Cucumber people because I wasnt even trying to pick on you. I fully explained what I was using on Draco and you can even check it on my stream.
2) Yes, my CW is for PvE only. Not quite close to BiS yet since im going after Valindra's artifact.
3) I don't trust my dps till I see something similar to World of Logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Siege_of_Orgrimmar/dps/
4) You should'nt care too much if a GWF comes close to your dmg. You should think about how you can double his dmg instead. Even in WoW they have a program called Simcraft, program that tells you which class and spec does the most dmg in THEORY. Look at the Sim first then look at WoLs, you will see that results are completely different. Spriest is ranked at the bottom of the chart on Sim, but there is always great Spriest players that will rank world top 10 (all class) in dps. http://simulationcraft.org/541/Raid_T16H.html#player12
5) GWF, GF, TR, and CW... all of them are awesome. Just play it till you get bored.
PvP GWF - BizzyBedBug
PvE GF (salvaged)
PvE TR (salvaged)
GWF PvP/CW PvE @ http://www.twitch.tv/bizzyplusplus/
Fine. Taking it back. Usually if I have an argument with esteena, he has his buddy to take his part, so this is where it came from
I used simcraft as well. WoW made things way easier and more structured. But for now, we deal with what we have, the raw Damage Dealt numbers and ACT.
To be honest I've yet to see GFs and TRs come close to CWs though. But GWFs are another story. And I actually like it this way, I'm happy when a class is improved and it does well, why not, these are not posts cause I don't like it, quite the opposite. I'm the one and only person in these forums that continually said for example that TRs need a damage buff/new AoEs to keep up in damage, as IMO any class that has a DPS role should be able to compete for the top spot. But some people are still unhappy with their GWFs, and in the place the class is now in, I find it a bit ridiculous.
What could Hot Pants tell you lol? I've only did one VT with him, we didn't even talk, everybody did their job and we left. He's a good CW. There's no shortage of good CWs in this game.
This is exactly my approach to CW when I play it I use defensive gear on my CW when I play like this. The gear is also a boon when in difficult boss fights. And really I started out as GWF because I loved jumping into the middle of the fray and crushing everything around me. Apply the same concept to the CW and you come out twice as effective.
If I end up being sole CW I don't play like this and I focus more on control because that is what helps the party more, and still I can top damage charts if not horrible crush them.
But honestly I'm growing bored with CW I miss my GWF but still, with all the playing I have been doing lately so I can make educated arguments in this, my current series of debates has left me depressed and disappointment that all massive hate against the GWF still persists to this day, and even though it is among the smallest population of players out there it is still far too difficult to get a group as GWF. And I have a really High GS on GWF so I dont really know how the low GS GWF players can put up with this.
You see any class can be awesome when backup up by incredible gear and the perfect spec. My arguments go along the lines that the Awesome GWF cannot hold a candle to the Awesome CW and I foresee the awesome HR also being added to this list. I've see in zone chat today players bashing the GWF now that the HR is here. The GWF is now useless. I know this is not true. GWF are struggling but not useless not as useless as they were immediately after live when they had no damage and no survivability.
Pers3phone, plz understand this well it is your experience that GWF are fine. The majority of players disagree with you. It is great that there are players like you out there promoting the GWF but you are few and far between. I ask you take a moment to look at our arguments and realize the only reason we are making these arguments is so the devs make some changes to the GWF to make it a more popular class specifically in PvE.
Your arguments only hurt our efforts. It has been a struggle I have taken since the game went live. And I have recently had the encouragement to take another swing at the GWF situation in full force. Only because of the Battle Furor buff made to the GWF. Something that seemed to relate to the discussions made on the forums and something I promoted. It told me the devs are listening to us if they are taking there sweet time to do anything about it.
So I ask you as a CW player do you think any buffs the GWF could receive would hurt your play experience at all? Would the GWF being slightly more tanky and/or damaging negatively effect your play style. Would you be pleased as all the other GWF players out there to see the GWF player perform a bit better than it does in PVE right now. It would only further reinforce your position that the GWF is a strong class, and then more players would also side on you with this until we find a common ground.
Until then the GWF struggles and keeps struggling, but hopefully one day it will stand on equal ground with the other classes.
1) When you argue with Esteena you need data. If your numbers are off he'll pick on you. If your argument is invalid he will tell you that it's invalid.
2) I have no idea about TRs in mod2, since Esteena stopped playing on his TR in mod2 and I already stopped playing on it during BETA. Before mod2, their single target dps was up there, last time I checked the logs. Its kinda known that Esteena trashed many Pvorp wizards (specced terribly?) back then. Same for me, when I was playing on my GF with a GPF. Anyways, doesn't really matter if a TR or GF outdps a CW tbh. Be the best at your class, thats all I can say.
3) GWF dps? I did some dungeon on my pvp specced sent but the dmg output was amazing even if im not specced for PvE. Not sure if my GWF can come close to my CW tho... but seriously the dmg output looks promising. If I get bored, I'll switch to PvE (already have 4set Avatar) and test it.
PvP GWF - BizzyBedBug
PvE GF (salvaged)
PvE TR (salvaged)
GWF PvP/CW PvE @ http://www.twitch.tv/bizzyplusplus/
I'm not sure how to respond.
As you seen, I like GWFs and would choose them over other classes. I am quite unsure why you would need even more damage and more survivability, it doesn't seem right to me, because the class can be very efficient. Problem is that in this game, PvE and PvP have no separation. If you have even more awesomeness, your class will rule in PvP even more than it does now.
But I won't argue against this, fine by me, ask for even more buffing, continue to say that the GWF is useless and so on. I actually wanted to come with numbers, logs and a video to support what I am saying, but I won't bother with it.
Feel free to lobby for more power for GWF, I won't interfere any longer.
Thing is, if you respec the GWF as a full PvE DPS machine, how will the situation look then? If you give the GWF the same type of gear that you have with the CW etc.
This is a joke, right?
I don't recall GWF ever being useless in either PvP/PvE, even before Module 2. You're most likely either someone who:
i) Has the right spec but poorly geared
ii) Specs totally wrong and expects to be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
iii) Judge from LFG chat where <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> look for multiple CWs instead of other classes
It's weird because some Sentinel GWFs themselves even express how broken OP the class spec is with the new artifacts and all sort of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, in PvP. And as for PvE, Deep Gash now deals considerably high DPS especially if you have Vorpal enchantment.
Majority of players? Yourself and some fail GWFs? Or just the few which posted in this thread?
If you're expecting to have the "best of both worlds" build, continue daydreaming till the day Dual Spec actually comes out, if it ever will that is.
If you think CW is more "OP" than GWF, go play one instead of whining for buffs every single patch. Otherwise, continue playing GWF as it is now or quit the game. Simple.
1- A class with high DoT damage, needs determination for survivability with considerable AoE damage.
OR
2- a class that can silence a pack of mobs instantly and then blow them up with a shard or throw them off a cliff perhaps. Not to mention that eye of the storm procs 90% of the time causing you to deal huge amount of critical hits.
CW's trash clearing > GWF's trash clearing. Talking about efficiency and speed, or to be more accurate, damage per SECOND.
Ofcourse, if the mob take longer to die my GWF's deep gash will deal a considerable amount of damage but why would i ever take a class depending on that feat ( 30% of my DPS when i parsed it) if i can take a class who can kill a pack of mobs instantly?
Key word here is Damage per second:
The amount of damage you can deal in a certain amount of time. Time is a factor, if you can clear 100 mobs 3 seconds and another class clears it in 10 seconds it means your class has higher DPS.
Need to go through some testings:
- Test the dmg output of CW daily,encounter and AW vs. GWF daily, enc and AW: Sing/OF vs. Spinning-Strike/AoS, ChillingCloud vs. WMS (SM) /TR (IV)
- Target cap on each encounters and dailies
- HV vs. Avatar
- Debuff (%) on target
- Have to check on Deep Gash DoT dmg vs. CoI dmg
etc
Atm, I really can't tell you about PvE GWF's dps. Only thing that im concerned about is how am I going to counter the CW's OF and Shard dmg as a GWF.
PvP GWF - BizzyBedBug
PvE GF (salvaged)
PvE TR (salvaged)
GWF PvP/CW PvE @ http://www.twitch.tv/bizzyplusplus/
I do not quite understand the post, but repeating: In the beta, much of the damage was due to slam / battle awareness that was perhaps the unique ability to massive damage (at least for me who had built a 'perma slam ") . Now we have the deep gash that "democratized" the damage class, but not cease to be a disproportionate ability. The class always had a certain disproportion, hence the power of the bleed does not impress me.
in fact, it is something like "back to normal".
but back to my point, the two videos show something that is the great turning point of my personal need. is the logistics of battle. see how the 2 cw exploit the flanks, closing the spaces and making the most of the combat advantage.
there is control / damage, yes. but is this hygienic posture battle that matters to me now.
is very tricky to do that today with gwf / destroyer today, at least for me, due to 3 sec.
I hate seeing ignorant plays like you come in to whine and complain. First read the Op's thread he says he is main CW and would like to play GWF again but he has a hard time getting a group. I'm not the least surprised by that I rarely ever invite GWF's to my groups I play GF I dont need GWF's in my groups I fulfill that role and those that know me would rather have my GF in a group over any GWF they can trust I'll bring along massive damage and tankiness. With a GWF you never know what your going to get.
So Yes I completely believe that the majority of players do not want a GWF in there groups when GF and TR are great options to be the groups sole melee. Sometimes I do party with TR's but most often I'm the sole melee.
I guess I've been slacking in ma duties lately I gotta get back on top of the GF bandwagon with my catch phrase.
"Anything a GWF can do a GF can Do Better"
"Yes I can!"
First of all, I am a player, not a play. Then, take a chill pill and look who's whining.
So you rarely invite GWFs into your groups, good to know, but fact is I don't give a shet. You don't represent the whole playerbase ffs.
That's why you got your precious lil' friend and guild lists, to "know what you're going to get".
Well if your intent for this is to be funny, then you fail.
But perfect catchphrase though, coming out from a geek like yourself.
This being the critical point.
It doesn't matter if a GWF has the same or even somewhat higher DPS than a CW if the CW can instant-kill enemy mobs by pushing them off a cliff. Given that CWs (especially stacked) can also effectively render mobs harmless to the team, there is a reason why, except perhaps at the highest levels when you utterly out-gear a dungeon, stacking CWs is the most effective response to the current add-fest endgame.
It's really tough to make an argument on behalf of "the majority" when you don't have stats to back that up. Who complains on the forum doesn't in any way equate to a majority of any kind.
That being said, I'm going to suggest that you check out some of the excellent guides for GWF's. Kolatmaster's are my personal favorites, and I respecced my Half-Orc GWF into his Leroy Jenkins Sentinel build for module two. I was a little skeptical, particularly since he outgears me significantly. But wow, it's fantastic. My GWF was fun beforehand, but not as effective as most of my other characters in different ways, but now he really shines in both solo and group play.
I get the fact that you want things changed, and I am sure that you have your reasons for that. But fighters are doing really well now and I don't see that being any worse. Try the last fight of Aberrant Assault with a GF or GWF, it's not pretty (unless you have five CW's specced for control with fantastic communication and coordination, then it's comedy - until someone makes a mistake and it becomes a wipe).
I would choose whoever is going to be the most fun to play with, which isn't the same thing as high DPS. When I don't run with guildies, I PUG a lot and I'd much rather play with a cautious and solid GWF than a zerging CW.
and plz leave feedback on out come after you race me
pers3phone is a good cw not low dps one for the record.