um, what? You can't "tank" any more than few elite mobs in any spec. Probably least in a dps spec.
I don't know what this 'crazy damage' you're talking about is, considering everything gets aoe'd to oblivion by CW/HR/GWFs, while we what, cleave tickle the mobs?
I can tank the 2nd boss plus the 2 big maws in Spellplague. I can even tank all adds in the final boss (this is before patch, when the spawns would still hit you being buffed). IMO tanking doesn't mean stand in one place and have your shield destroyed for no reason. Tanking means having aggro on everything while being able to survive, and keep all the mobs in the same spot if possible.
I don't think GF can do crazy damage as a tank (I am a protector), not without Stalwart lol. I still do fair amount of damage (usually 3rd place), but nothing crazy. But I can hold aggro very well (aggravating strike + enforced threat). I've never had anything stealing any aggro from me. CW / HR can have twice the DPS as me, I can still hold aggro.
He's saying that the "wonderfull" DMG of a GWF comes from a bugged feat.
Once they will fix the bugged feat a GWF will never be able to compete in DPS with a CW which is actually the only class that "is working as intended".
It's plain clear that can't be working as intended a feat/power that is considered a "must have" just because it would pump your DPS by a 25-40% by itself.
You should know it very well since you already saw what has happened to "Slam".
Every GFs knows it very well seeing what has happened to the stalwart set.
Every HR will know it very well once they will fix storm step action.
I also expect that they will also nerf SoEA since it is the must have power for a CW (I expect they will also put a target limit to CoI and IT).
He's saying that the "wonderfull" DMG of a GWF comes from a bugged feat.
Once they will fix the bugged feat a GWF will never be able to compete in DPS with a CW which is actually the only class that "is working as intended".
It's plain clear that can't be working as intended a feat/power that is considered a "must have" just because it would pump your DPS by a 25-40% by itself.
You should know it very well since you already saw what has happened to "Slam".
Every GFs knows it very well seeing what has happened to the stalwart set.
Every HR will know it very well once they will fix storm step action.
I also expect that they will also nerf SoEA since it is the must have power for a CW (I expect they will also put a target limit to CoI and IT).
CoI has a 5 target limit.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
ok my Sent GWF name is gelfin@sunsfire2004 16k gs I will dps race any cw or gwf to prove gwf dps is fine would be mc 3/3 legit no exploiting runs as that's what I am farming at min send tell if interested in a race.
and plz leave feedback on out come after you race me
pers3phone is a good cw not low dps one for the record.
Right. Hey there.
They will ignore you man Because they don't want to be proven wrong.
I wanted to ask you to run a MC test and post results, but as you can see, it would not be relevant, since I'm an average CW with low damage, and it would be natural for a good GWF to match my DPS/be better in it.
Oh well. Lost causes are lost. But in the end nobody cares, at least we both know that some people fully enjoy their GWFs in all their awesomeness and are happy playing their chars.
Personally I've seen GWF out damdge every single class in dungeons, they really do make a difference on that boss, and I love to get them into my party for that reason, and I disagree that they should not be strikers because they should.
Traditionally in DnD well built fighter and barbarians were the melee classes you where afraid of, good rogue builds still only did most of their damage with sneak attacks while those two devastated anyone who couldn't get out of the way. Fighter came out with a either a build with defense or a build for great offense often focusing more on critting, while Barbarians focused on just wildly attacking enemy and raging. Then came along 4E that basically balanced everything or tried too, so I say either we keep GWF with the high damage or get the devs to make Barbarian class and Nerf GWF dmg and buff defense.
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zardoz007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
Personally I've seen GWF out damdge every single class in dungeons, they really do make a difference on that boss, and I love to get them into my party for that reason, and I disagree that they should not be strikers because they should.
Traditionally in DnD well built fighter and barbarians were the melee classes you where afraid of, good rogue builds still only did most of their damage with sneak attacks while those two devastated anyone who couldn't get out of the way. Fighter came out with a either a build with defense or a build for great offense often focusing more on critting, while Barbarians focused on just wildly attacking enemy and raging. Then came along 4E that basically balanced everything or tried too, so I say either we keep GWF with the high damage or get the devs to make Barbarian class and Nerf GWF dmg and buff defense.
Personally I have out Dpsed every other class in a group with my GWF. This happens only when my well geared GWF outgears everyone else in the party. My arguements are made for the classes sake when compared to other classes of equal gear. If you have 15k+ Gears core you are awesome no matter what you class. Yet even a 15k+ GS GWF can't get into a group that does not believe a GFW is useful no matter what his gear score. The right class is more valuable then a good player. At least this is what I find when playing a GWF. As my CW I just own everything, and just like GWF as my CW I out DPS the entire party and basically control the entire pull of mobs from start till dead when my CW outgears the entire party.
But then again as a CW I out DPS the entire party of equal and often higher geared players, because that is the nature of CW.
GWF's dont need a buff to defense, I do understnad why GF players can complain that a GWF is tougher than they are. Even if it is only by a small margin. GWF's need a Buff to threat so they can out threat every other class but the GF. If they spec and use all the threat buff powers. The reason for this is simple. A GF can spec and go all out DPS and be on par with a GWF that does the same. But a GWF cannot spec pure tank and even hope to reliably control threat against HR's and CW's. The best a GWF can do is be a distraction and an instigator to all fights so he groups mobs around him and buys the rest of the party time to unleash CC and burn down trash pulls. With the new threat buffs this can infact work quite well. A long as no CW or HR greatly outgears the GWF. But in boss fights a GWF can't perform that role. against adds or the boss.
They will ignore you man Because they don't want to be proven wrong.
I wanted to ask you to run a MC test and post results, but as you can see, it would not be relevant, since I'm an average CW with low damage, and it would be natural for a good GWF to match my DPS/be better in it.
Oh well. Lost causes are lost. But in the end nobody cares, at least we both know that some people fully enjoy their GWFs in all their awesomeness and are happy playing their chars.
I will pay him a respec token, will ask him to remove deep gash and make him race with my girlfriend's CW, wanna go?
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Personally I have out Dpsed every other class in a group with my GWF. This happens only when my well geared GWF outgears everyone else in the party. My arguements are made for the classes sake when compared to other classes of equal gear. If you have 15k+ Gears core you are awesome no matter what you class. Yet even a 15k+ GS GWF can't get into a group that does not believe a GFW is useful no matter what his gear score.
-snip-
A long as no CW or HR greatly outgears the GWF. But in boss fights a GWF can't perform that role. against adds or the boss.
I pretty much agree with this. When I'm in a party with a GWF of equal gearing to my CW(around 13-14k) things usually go nice and smooth until the party enters a longer protracted fight with lots of high HP elites. At this point I end up kiting and running for my life until the GWF or someone else has a chance to deal enough damage to it for my CW to lose aggro.
This doesn't happen if the GWF is hugely outgearing me(ie, a 16k GWF) since everything dies too quick for it to pose an issue or he/her is massively out threating me anyhow.
It also doesn't happen if the tank spot is filled with a GF...or there's an equal gear HR, which the mobs seem to love even more than CW.
ok my Sent GWF name is gelflin@sunsfire2004 16k gs I will dps race any cw or gwf to prove gwf dps is fine would be mc 3/3 legit no exploiting runs as that's what I am farming at min send tell if interested in a race.
and plz leave feedback on out come after you race me
pers3phone is a good cw not low dps one for the record.
We did this. 2x CW, 2x GWF, DC.
I gotta say for senti's these guys did amazing dps and I can't wait to run with a destroyer/instigator. And although they may be specced senti, at least gelfin is full str/dex build with avatar and all damage gear. I do feel **** though as Vyros pointed out at the pull before the first boss he was over 1mil ahead of me in DPS, so then I equipped my stone >.> I also feel like I spend most of the fights running and dodging and praying I don't get one shotted (aggro control system cryptic, make it happen!,) whereas these guys can stand in there and take it. They were absolutely on point with slam, like less than 2 seconds to down Valindra, and the run was as smooth as it could be. I would run with them again any day. I wish I had parsed it just to see how much of this damage was from deep gash alone (since it is really bugged,) but maybe next time.
I gotta say for senti's these guys did amazing dps and I can't wait to run with a destroyer/instigator. And although they may be specced senti, at least gelfin is full str/dex build with avatar and all damage gear. I do feel **** though as Vyros pointed out at the pull before the first boss he was over 1mil ahead of me in DPS, so then I equipped my stone >.> I also feel like I spend most of the fights running and dodging and praying I don't get one shotted (aggro control system cryptic, make it happen!,) whereas these guys can stand in there and take it. They were absolutely on point with slam, like less than 2 seconds to down Valindra, and the run was as smooth as it could be. I would run with them again any day. I wish I had parsed it just to see how much of this damage was from deep gash alone (since it is really bugged,) but maybe next time.
it was fun run but we had so much dps it just felt like it was mad dash to the mobs no real cc used or any thing was just get to mobs before they died as they where dyeing that fast.
died very fast I don't think deep gash did that much damage as mobs die pretty fast and I also do not think its bugged its just way bleed has changed and maths done for it now.
did wish I was not sent build for like first time ever as mobs where dyeing that fast there was 0 need for tanking or cc
it was fun run but we had so much dps it just felt like it was mad dash to the mobs no real cc used or any thing was just get to mobs before they died as they where dyeing that fast.
died very fast I don't think deep gash did that much damage as mobs die pretty fast and I also do not think its bugged its just way bleed has changed and maths done for it now.
did wish I was not sent build for like first time ever as mobs where dyeing that fast there was 0 need for tanking or cc
Deep gash is extremely broken. Here's some math for you from my GWF which is senti, pvp, and not geared out.
IBS = 9473 damage,
deep gash from this crit = 4020 damage
Description of deep gash = Your critical strikes cause your target to bleed, taking 15% of your power as damage over 5 seconds.
My power = 1654.
15% of this would be 248.1 damage, not 4020!
Even if it was 15% of the damage you dealt, in this case 9473, it would only do 1421 damage, again no where near the 4020 extra damage that it did.
Show me where GWFs get 1500%+ bonuses? Seriously for the test I ran it did more than 15 times the damage it should have.
as your 1 saying its bug should u not be one to give screenie and list all damage and debuffs
example
power
crit severity
encounter damage %
combat advantage
str
stacks student of sword
arp
physical damage %
slam if feated
indomitable if feated
unstoppable if feated
destroyer stacks
any other ability's that effect the % damage your attack did at the time as all effect it now
then as example you gave was pvp all buffs debuffs from other people and person you hit def so on
and then we can go into order % damage is added because that effects it as well as its not 1500% example crit severity multiple is added last after other effects
i was testing destroyer yesterday in a 1 x 1 with another good gwf, and really destroyer is really bad. i felt like a paper, and seems the dps output doesn't change much from the sentinel, and the last feat builds very low determination by damage. thumbs down for destroyer.
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I gotta say for senti's these guys did amazing dps and I can't wait to run with a destroyer/instigator. And although they may be specced senti, at least gelfin is full str/dex build with avatar and all damage gear. I do feel **** though as Vyros pointed out at the pull before the first boss he was over 1mil ahead of me in DPS, so then I equipped my stone >.> I also feel like I spend most of the fights running and dodging and praying I don't get one shotted (aggro control system cryptic, make it happen!,) whereas these guys can stand in there and take it. They were absolutely on point with slam, like less than 2 seconds to down Valindra, and the run was as smooth as it could be. I would run with them again any day. I wish I had parsed it just to see how much of this damage was from deep gash alone (since it is really bugged,) but maybe next time.
Well.
As I said. You have pure PvE build and BiS everything, which is better than gelflin's gear, and you came on top, it should be natural. I ended up a bit higher as well, but just by a bit, we both had R7s then. And yup, he is a sentinel.
Also you experienced the same cr4p as I do in most fights, we're unable to stay foot and DPS, cause we're always with 5 mobs on our tails, looking for a window of opportunity to cast. I'd say this might be OK since CW DPS would go through the roof with us being able just to stay foot&cast.
For me, this proves that GWF damage is more than OK, even in the defensive sentinel tree. Your CW by your own words is exceptional in dungeon's damage dealt, and you constructed it for this with all the best toys, so obviously it should come top.
It's interesting to see that the stats from your stone were so important...
That being said, I'm going to suggest that you check out some of the excellent guides for GWF's. Kolatmaster's are my personal favorites, and I respecced my Half-Orc GWF into his Leroy Jenkins Sentinel build for module two. I was a little skeptical, particularly since he outgears me significantly. But wow, it's fantastic. My GWF was fun beforehand, but not as effective as most of my other characters in different ways, but now he really shines in both solo and group play.
Thanks for the shout out, and I'm pleased the build is working well for you!
If you have any comments on it, positive or negative, jump over to the guide and post them. Always willing to discuss!
Let these guys enjoy their class and high damage, regardless from where it comes.
That's the heart of the matter... :cool:
I will reiterate my stance also, I feel GWFs are good as they currently are. Strong in both PvP and PvE. If the general populace doesn't want them in their groups, it's their loss pure and simple... Any GWF getting stung, I highly recommend to connect with players who understand that GWFs are viable party members and should be welcomed on many dungeon runs.
GWFs do get stronger the higher/better gear, that's self explanatory.
If the Devs want to 'buff' GWFs more, I won't argue, but again I do not see the point.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I will reiterate my stance also, I feel GWFs are good as they currently are. Strong in both PvP and PvE. If the general populace doesn't want them in their groups, it's their loss pure and simple...
Yes, it's the mindset of the game population that needs a fix.
Best way to offer this fix is usually by proving those "LF 3CW" parties that a GWF can do just as good and is awesome to have. One of my friends that no longer plays the game had a purely defensive sentinel alt and I helped him gear up through a month of T2s and afterwards CN, and even as he had low damage and it was before Module 2, his sent was STILL amazing to have and it was very good to play with him. So in the end, it's not even a damage issue, to be honest, the class can still perform very well without having to end up on no.1 Damage Dealt.
In other MMOs, tanks doing lower damage than DPS class would be a given and nobody would complain, but hey, it's NWO and we're special here :P
bleed: I'll risk a quick calculation on a neutral technique that I call "gwf sneeze" ..
15% of my power = 1600
bonus damage my power = 256. does not matter
Strength bonus = 16%
destroyer bonus = 12% (I think)
critical severity = 120%
total = 5068/5 = 1013 per stack.
You may have noticed that the damage wms for example is much smaller than the damage of your weapon. Not coincidentally, the critical damage my wms orbits 850. 150 unless the gwf sneeze. My reaping strike is 1950; 937> gwf sneeze. unstoppable, the bleed / Atwill also decreases, which corroborates the idea.
the same goes for Dailys / encounters. to be a qualitative hierarchical order, the calculation (which I am unaware) is under this amount. which makes sense. one ibs have the same bleeding is sure strike would be meaningless.
the unpleasant making these calculations is that the game starts to lose grace, then stop contesting the **** bleed.
ps: I calculated wrong the 15% of my power .... haha. but there is it .
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2013
Also you experienced the same cr4p as I do in most fights, we're unable to stay foot and DPS, cause we're always with 5 mobs on our tails, looking for a window of opportunity to cast. I'd say this might be OK since CW DPS would go through the roof with us being able just to stay foot&cast.
Initial aggro and initial dmg aggro are huge modifiers to mob threat tables and it takes about 50% of the mobs life to overcome them. combine that with the fact that dungeons are too easy and mobs have too few hp. If that were changed you wouldn't rambo through mobs like that, you'd let the tank grab initial dmg and then and you would be able to sit back using your most efficient dmg rotations and deal even more damage. But with mobs as weak as they are there's no point, their dead before it matters so everyone just runs in guns blazing. This is the source of most CW and almost all HR "aggro" issues. being the first to hit unaggro'd mobs. And since mobs have so few hp and players deal enough dmg and have enough defense to basically ignore threat tables DPS really is just a race to who can hit mobs before they are dead.
I was in this run and when it became clear that it was just horse racing to the next pack of mobs I fell behind and started clicking barrels and playing mop up maintaining the battlefield. When i was up front i would just line stuff up for others to aoe (attempting, poorly, to counteract oppressive/shard and get the mobs clustered back together). Generally though by the time i would catch up to the rest everything was dead already. I think I got enough determ for unstoppable 3 times in the entire dungeon, and I took less dmg than even the DC, who basically was just following behind looting nodes :P
The team really did have just too much dmg for any kind of effective race. One thing to note when I did fall behind and just started cleaning up the stragglers and my aoe dmg was removed from the group, is when the Soulforge tanks started activating for the CWs. Which confirms the pug popular opinion on the matter. 4xAOEs (typically 4xCWs) is enough dmg to not need anyone to tank. The only thing that i'm surprised about is the reluctance to boot the DC from these PUG elite teams. If you don't need anyone to tank you certainly don't need anyone to heal.
Yes, it's the mindset of the game population that needs a fix.
Best way to offer this fix is usually by proving those "LF 3CW" parties that a GWF can do just as good and is awesome to have. One of my friends that no longer plays the game had a purely defensive sentinel alt and I helped him gear up through a month of T2s and afterwards CN, and even as he had low damage and it was before Module 2, his sent was STILL amazing to have and it was very good to play with him. So in the end, it's not even a damage issue, to be honest, the class can still perform very well without having to end up on no.1 Damage Dealt.
In other MMOs, tanks doing lower damage than DPS class would be a given and nobody would complain, but hey, it's NWO and we're special here :P
GWFs in CN
1) Most of the GWF's (properly geared and specced. Sent/Destro) that I played with were doing fine in CN even before Mod2. They simply got their spot in dungeons because they were good players that played their class well. If you're having hard time trying to find a party for dungeons as a GF/GWF, go ahead and make your own party. Build up your reputation so you'll be known.
CW vs. GWF: Micro Management
2) From my PoV I feel like you need more micro management compared to CWs when you play a GWF to maximize the dps tho. e.g. Usage of threatening rush/sprint for specific encounter. CW is a no-brainer class now I think about it and this is just my personal opinion.
Tank DPS in other MMO
3) Even in other MMOs such as WoW, during progression, tanks are expected to maximize their dps to beat the enrage timers. During Cata they introduced a new combat system for tanks and it is called Vengeance: http://www.wowwiki.com/Vengeance
Having a tank that knows how to use their vengenace (increase in dps/increase in survivability) makes the fight easier for everyone in the raid.
It's quite common to see top parsing tanks dominating the WoLs dps ranks (all class): Protection Warrior from KR rank1 on Thok the Bloodthirsty (Heroic) http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/f2zzqnvd6ctv447e/sum/damageDone/?s=17&e=373#Frantice
Having a high dps hybrid GF/GWF is always a great addition to the group. Anyhow, any class should do their best to maximize their DPS and go for the No.1 position on the DPS chart. Blaming it on the enchantments rank/gearing is just an excuse for their low DPS.
Let's say you have 2 GWF's that are equally geared, would you rather take a GWF that deals 9mil on Draco or other one that deals 3mil. I'll let you guys decide.
About Deep Gash
4) Did some quick test with @esteena on Deep Gash by factoring in debuff/combat advantage bonus/str/power/SoTS stacks/Mark/crit severity. If you factored in everything the dmg output of Deep Gash are quite accurate and it doesnt seem like its broken or totally off. If you would like to see the logs or would like to discuss with us about Deep Gash dmg calculation please contact us. Stox please come down to our channel when you have time so we can discuss about it.
About Deep Gash
4) Did some quick test with @esteena on Deep Gash by factoring in debuff/combat advantage bonus/str/power/SoTS stacks/Mark/crit severity. If you factored in everything the dmg output of Deep Gash are quite accurate and it doesnt seem like its broken or totally off. If you would like to see the logs or would like to discuss with us about Deep Gash dmg calculation please contact us. Stox please come down to our channel when you have time so we can discuss about it.
Glad you came to that conclusion. The last thing we want to see is a people crying for another "nerf GWF", just as the class is finally in a good spot for many players. In this game, the minute some class has a cool mechanic, there's always an angry mob immediately trying to lobby for its destruction-->less fun for anybody.
Comments
I can tank the 2nd boss plus the 2 big maws in Spellplague. I can even tank all adds in the final boss (this is before patch, when the spawns would still hit you being buffed). IMO tanking doesn't mean stand in one place and have your shield destroyed for no reason. Tanking means having aggro on everything while being able to survive, and keep all the mobs in the same spot if possible.
I don't think GF can do crazy damage as a tank (I am a protector), not without Stalwart lol. I still do fair amount of damage (usually 3rd place), but nothing crazy. But I can hold aggro very well (aggravating strike + enforced threat). I've never had anything stealing any aggro from me. CW / HR can have twice the DPS as me, I can still hold aggro.
Once they will fix the bugged feat a GWF will never be able to compete in DPS with a CW which is actually the only class that "is working as intended".
It's plain clear that can't be working as intended a feat/power that is considered a "must have" just because it would pump your DPS by a 25-40% by itself.
You should know it very well since you already saw what has happened to "Slam".
Every GFs knows it very well seeing what has happened to the stalwart set.
Every HR will know it very well once they will fix storm step action.
I also expect that they will also nerf SoEA since it is the must have power for a CW (I expect they will also put a target limit to CoI and IT).
CoI has a 5 target limit.
Frankly, they shouldn't be nerfing everything, but buffing the powers that aren't up to par.
Have cross class combos
EDIT: and separate out PvE and PvP. Pretty much everything I listed above would be horriffically broken in PvP, but fantastic in PvE.
Right. Hey there.
They will ignore you man
I wanted to ask you to run a MC test and post results, but as you can see, it would not be relevant, since I'm an average CW with low damage, and it would be natural for a good GWF to match my DPS/be better in it.
Oh well. Lost causes are lost. But in the end nobody cares, at least we both know that some people fully enjoy their GWFs in all their awesomeness and are happy playing their chars.
Traditionally in DnD well built fighter and barbarians were the melee classes you where afraid of, good rogue builds still only did most of their damage with sneak attacks while those two devastated anyone who couldn't get out of the way. Fighter came out with a either a build with defense or a build for great offense often focusing more on critting, while Barbarians focused on just wildly attacking enemy and raging. Then came along 4E that basically balanced everything or tried too, so I say either we keep GWF with the high damage or get the devs to make Barbarian class and Nerf GWF dmg and buff defense.
Personally I have out Dpsed every other class in a group with my GWF. This happens only when my well geared GWF outgears everyone else in the party. My arguements are made for the classes sake when compared to other classes of equal gear. If you have 15k+ Gears core you are awesome no matter what you class. Yet even a 15k+ GS GWF can't get into a group that does not believe a GFW is useful no matter what his gear score. The right class is more valuable then a good player. At least this is what I find when playing a GWF. As my CW I just own everything, and just like GWF as my CW I out DPS the entire party and basically control the entire pull of mobs from start till dead when my CW outgears the entire party.
But then again as a CW I out DPS the entire party of equal and often higher geared players, because that is the nature of CW.
GWF's dont need a buff to defense, I do understnad why GF players can complain that a GWF is tougher than they are. Even if it is only by a small margin. GWF's need a Buff to threat so they can out threat every other class but the GF. If they spec and use all the threat buff powers. The reason for this is simple. A GF can spec and go all out DPS and be on par with a GWF that does the same. But a GWF cannot spec pure tank and even hope to reliably control threat against HR's and CW's. The best a GWF can do is be a distraction and an instigator to all fights so he groups mobs around him and buys the rest of the party time to unleash CC and burn down trash pulls. With the new threat buffs this can infact work quite well. A long as no CW or HR greatly outgears the GWF. But in boss fights a GWF can't perform that role. against adds or the boss.
give some additional damage bonus to focused destroyer / critical chance for the Destroyer's Purpose would be interesting too.
Santa dev won't be back till next dec.
I pretty much agree with this. When I'm in a party with a GWF of equal gearing to my CW(around 13-14k) things usually go nice and smooth until the party enters a longer protracted fight with lots of high HP elites. At this point I end up kiting and running for my life until the GWF or someone else has a chance to deal enough damage to it for my CW to lose aggro.
This doesn't happen if the GWF is hugely outgearing me(ie, a 16k GWF) since everything dies too quick for it to pose an issue or he/her is massively out threating me anyhow.
It also doesn't happen if the tank spot is filled with a GF...or there's an equal gear HR, which the mobs seem to love even more than CW.
We did this. 2x CW, 2x GWF, DC.
I gotta say for senti's these guys did amazing dps and I can't wait to run with a destroyer/instigator. And although they may be specced senti, at least gelfin is full str/dex build with avatar and all damage gear. I do feel **** though as Vyros pointed out at the pull before the first boss he was over 1mil ahead of me in DPS, so then I equipped my stone >.> I also feel like I spend most of the fights running and dodging and praying I don't get one shotted (aggro control system cryptic, make it happen!,) whereas these guys can stand in there and take it. They were absolutely on point with slam, like less than 2 seconds to down Valindra, and the run was as smooth as it could be. I would run with them again any day. I wish I had parsed it just to see how much of this damage was from deep gash alone (since it is really bugged,) but maybe next time.
it was fun run but we had so much dps it just felt like it was mad dash to the mobs no real cc used or any thing was just get to mobs before they died as they where dyeing that fast.
died very fast I don't think deep gash did that much damage as mobs die pretty fast and I also do not think its bugged its just way bleed has changed and maths done for it now.
did wish I was not sent build for like first time ever as mobs where dyeing that fast there was 0 need for tanking or cc
Deep gash is extremely broken. Here's some math for you from my GWF which is senti, pvp, and not geared out.
IBS = 9473 damage,
deep gash from this crit = 4020 damage
Description of deep gash = Your critical strikes cause your target to bleed, taking 15% of your power as damage over 5 seconds.
My power = 1654.
15% of this would be 248.1 damage, not 4020!
Even if it was 15% of the damage you dealt, in this case 9473, it would only do 1421 damage, again no where near the 4020 extra damage that it did.
So tell me again how this is not bugged?
claim because of defects in class is one thing, now because of the advantages?
Show me where GWFs get 1500%+ bonuses? Seriously for the test I ran it did more than 15 times the damage it should have.
as your 1 saying its bug should u not be one to give screenie and list all damage and debuffs
example
power
crit severity
encounter damage %
combat advantage
str
stacks student of sword
arp
physical damage %
slam if feated
indomitable if feated
unstoppable if feated
destroyer stacks
any other ability's that effect the % damage your attack did at the time as all effect it now
then as example you gave was pvp all buffs debuffs from other people and person you hit def so on
and then we can go into order % damage is added because that effects it as well as its not 1500% example crit severity multiple is added last after other effects
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Well.
As I said. You have pure PvE build and BiS everything, which is better than gelflin's gear, and you came on top, it should be natural. I ended up a bit higher as well, but just by a bit, we both had R7s then. And yup, he is a sentinel.
Also you experienced the same cr4p as I do in most fights, we're unable to stay foot and DPS, cause we're always with 5 mobs on our tails, looking for a window of opportunity to cast. I'd say this might be OK since CW DPS would go through the roof with us being able just to stay foot&cast.
For me, this proves that GWF damage is more than OK, even in the defensive sentinel tree. Your CW by your own words is exceptional in dungeon's damage dealt, and you constructed it for this with all the best toys, so obviously it should come top.
It's interesting to see that the stats from your stone were so important...
Why would anyone not want to use their class strong point? It's baffling. Would your GF's CW not use Shard then? Or Steal Time? Or her HV set?
Let these guys enjoy their class and high damage, regardless from where it comes.
If you have any comments on it, positive or negative, jump over to the guide and post them. Always willing to discuss!
That's the heart of the matter... :cool:
I will reiterate my stance also, I feel GWFs are good as they currently are. Strong in both PvP and PvE. If the general populace doesn't want them in their groups, it's their loss pure and simple... Any GWF getting stung, I highly recommend to connect with players who understand that GWFs are viable party members and should be welcomed on many dungeon runs.
GWFs do get stronger the higher/better gear, that's self explanatory.
If the Devs want to 'buff' GWFs more, I won't argue, but again I do not see the point.
Yes, it's the mindset of the game population that needs a fix.
Best way to offer this fix is usually by proving those "LF 3CW" parties that a GWF can do just as good and is awesome to have. One of my friends that no longer plays the game had a purely defensive sentinel alt and I helped him gear up through a month of T2s and afterwards CN, and even as he had low damage and it was before Module 2, his sent was STILL amazing to have and it was very good to play with him. So in the end, it's not even a damage issue, to be honest, the class can still perform very well without having to end up on no.1 Damage Dealt.
In other MMOs, tanks doing lower damage than DPS class would be a given and nobody would complain, but hey, it's NWO and we're special here :P
15% of my power = 1600
bonus damage my power = 256. does not matter
Strength bonus = 16%
destroyer bonus = 12% (I think)
critical severity = 120%
total = 5068/5 = 1013 per stack.
You may have noticed that the damage wms for example is much smaller than the damage of your weapon. Not coincidentally, the critical damage my wms orbits 850. 150 unless the gwf sneeze. My reaping strike is 1950; 937> gwf sneeze. unstoppable, the bleed / Atwill also decreases, which corroborates the idea.
the same goes for Dailys / encounters. to be a qualitative hierarchical order, the calculation (which I am unaware) is under this amount. which makes sense. one ibs have the same bleeding is sure strike would be meaningless.
the unpleasant making these calculations is that the game starts to lose grace, then stop contesting the **** bleed.
ps: I calculated wrong the 15% of my power .... haha. but there is it .
I was in this run and when it became clear that it was just horse racing to the next pack of mobs I fell behind and started clicking barrels and playing mop up maintaining the battlefield. When i was up front i would just line stuff up for others to aoe (attempting, poorly, to counteract oppressive/shard and get the mobs clustered back together). Generally though by the time i would catch up to the rest everything was dead already. I think I got enough determ for unstoppable 3 times in the entire dungeon, and I took less dmg than even the DC, who basically was just following behind looting nodes :P
The team really did have just too much dmg for any kind of effective race. One thing to note when I did fall behind and just started cleaning up the stragglers and my aoe dmg was removed from the group, is when the Soulforge tanks started activating for the CWs. Which confirms the pug popular opinion on the matter. 4xAOEs (typically 4xCWs) is enough dmg to not need anyone to tank. The only thing that i'm surprised about is the reluctance to boot the DC from these PUG elite teams. If you don't need anyone to tank you certainly don't need anyone to heal.
if the cw don't use its tab its on
we have are bleeds all class's get there dps from some where saying u can not use x because that's where a lot your dps is from is not smart.
next it be you can not use your great sword ^^
GWFs in CN
1) Most of the GWF's (properly geared and specced. Sent/Destro) that I played with were doing fine in CN even before Mod2. They simply got their spot in dungeons because they were good players that played their class well. If you're having hard time trying to find a party for dungeons as a GF/GWF, go ahead and make your own party. Build up your reputation so you'll be known.
CW vs. GWF: Micro Management
2) From my PoV I feel like you need more micro management compared to CWs when you play a GWF to maximize the dps tho. e.g. Usage of threatening rush/sprint for specific encounter. CW is a no-brainer class now I think about it and this is just my personal opinion.
Tank DPS in other MMO
3) Even in other MMOs such as WoW, during progression, tanks are expected to maximize their dps to beat the enrage timers. During Cata they introduced a new combat system for tanks and it is called Vengeance: http://www.wowwiki.com/Vengeance
Having a tank that knows how to use their vengenace (increase in dps/increase in survivability) makes the fight easier for everyone in the raid.
It's quite common to see top parsing tanks dominating the WoLs dps ranks (all class): Protection Warrior from KR rank1 on Thok the Bloodthirsty (Heroic) http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/f2zzqnvd6ctv447e/sum/damageDone/?s=17&e=373#Frantice
Having a high dps hybrid GF/GWF is always a great addition to the group. Anyhow, any class should do their best to maximize their DPS and go for the No.1 position on the DPS chart. Blaming it on the enchantments rank/gearing is just an excuse for their low DPS.
Let's say you have 2 GWF's that are equally geared, would you rather take a GWF that deals 9mil on Draco or other one that deals 3mil. I'll let you guys decide.
About Deep Gash
4) Did some quick test with @esteena on Deep Gash by factoring in debuff/combat advantage bonus/str/power/SoTS stacks/Mark/crit severity. If you factored in everything the dmg output of Deep Gash are quite accurate and it doesnt seem like its broken or totally off. If you would like to see the logs or would like to discuss with us about Deep Gash dmg calculation please contact us. Stox please come down to our channel when you have time so we can discuss about it.
PvP GWF - BizzyBedBug
PvE GF (salvaged)
PvE TR (salvaged)
GWF PvP/CW PvE @ http://www.twitch.tv/bizzyplusplus/
Glad you came to that conclusion. The last thing we want to see is a people crying for another "nerf GWF", just as the class is finally in a good spot for many players. In this game, the minute some class has a cool mechanic, there's always an angry mob immediately trying to lobby for its destruction-->less fun for anybody.
The only thing equipped is a weapon and a dark rank 10.
I have 1375 power. This means that the skill should be 206.25.
Now deep gash above did 6 ticks at 450 or 2700 damage...
Show me where in ANY feats in GWF you can get 1309% damage increase? I think if you stack everything you would have less than a 100% increase...