Feel free to try that tactic, it will not work as well as the Dev implies.
Devs often say "this is supposed to be X and do Y" then players learn that it actually "does A to do B" far better than what the Devs said in their talks about whatever it is. Devs have a narrow focus aimed at producing a particular result and limited man-hours, players seek the best result and have infinite man-hours; guess who finds the best way to utilise a game element?
That said the Ranger is optimised by switching stances, because that lets you sustain an attack longer at higher average DPS. Rangers are also more effective in a party where many of their buffs can be applied across the party to maximise party effectiveness; but you don't see that being talked up much do you?
I didn't post the blog to point out a bad rotation i pointed it out to say the dev meant for the class to switch stances if your not switching stances as intended your gimping your dps. If i wanted to point out a rotation i wouldn't have used the horrible one mentioned in his post i would have just given you my normal ingame rotation.
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just this^
I like the rock part the most!
Anyway we should go back to topic, even so we gave like a truckload of feedback and bug reports and like NOTHING has been changed due to our feedback, only visual and audio stuff....
Actually that's not true;
Aimed Shot got a faster animation and the melee version is no longer interruptable by damage.
Rapid Shot & Split Shot had their damage increased again after the nerf. (Not back to the initial craziness but increased regardless.)
Visual changes (gear etc) have been much requested and have followed feedback.
What has, however, been lacking is responses to this thread. Many of those updates have also been stealth fixes not appearing in patch notes.
Main outstanding issues are;
Seismic Shot vfx still bugged.
Aspect of the Lone Wolf still ineffctive.
With the long weekend in the US we will be lucky to see those things fixed before it goes live I expect.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I didn't post the blog to point out a bad rotation i pointed it out to say the dev meant for the class to switch stances if your not switching stances as intended your gimping your dps. If i wanted to point out a rotation i wouldn't have used the horrible one mentioned in his post i would have just given you my normal ingame rotation.
Did you read all 3 paragraphs you quoted or just reply after the first sentance?
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
That said the Ranger is optimised by switching stances, because that lets you sustain an attack longer at higher average DPS. Rangers are also more effective in a party where many of their buffs can be applied across the party to maximise party effectiveness; but you don't see that being talked up much do you?
I will agree With this that people need to stop looking outside their own selfish dps though and look at what the ranger can bring just being in the party. With A Nature spec Forest Lord Armor and Aspect of the pack a ranger can dramatically boost the party's overall dps/Survivability. Ranger is by far the best offensive support class i have seen if you utilise all the equipment and skills.
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I'm hoping to level a Nature spec up during 2x xp, but my house is also being packed up as I type so I will probably not make it.
But I want to test the effectiveness of the build in solo play while leveling.
I would make a second ranger just for nature spec forest lord gear gives you a ton of recovery Intelligence would greatly help that build type. I think though the buff range needs to be boosted a lil so the buffs hit the party a lot more easily.
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If you aren't going to be a full on dual stance, ranged and melee fighter like I do with the ranger, then I think you will come to find that you will be relatively less than useful in a party unless you are nature spec. I predict that those who focus on just one style and forsake the other, will get hedged out of parties the same way the GWF did. The best advice I can give for those potential archers is spec into nature paragon so that you are actually useful to a party and can sit back raining pew pew on enemies and not be hated on for the horrible damage contribution you will bring. Your group buffs alone will justify your presence. And with vote kicking coming round... there will be a lot of upset rangers out there.
Of course if it's just going to be pvp for you then that's different, but make no mistake, the nature rangers will be the most sought after for groups followed by the full on hybrids. The rest just wont bring enough to the table to be worth a spot in the group.
Bad class design? Not so much as bad play style choices methinks.
Feedback
Hawkeye: This skill is a pitiful buff as here is a better alternative let it guarantee your next x Number of attacks Crit like 2 for the first point spent then 2 more for each rank.
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If you aren't going to be a full on dual stance, ranged and melee fighter like I do with the ranger, then I think you will come to find that you will be relatively less than useful in a party unless you are nature spec.
And pray tell how are you going to dual spec?
If you think people will not want Archer spec HRs in parties you are sorely mistaken, access to group buffs and solid to high dps with the right build/gear. Hitting 24% ArP and critting close to 75% of the time with >80% severity without using a Vorpal. You'll spend seconds in melee stance to buff and otherwise rain damage from afar.
The DPS gain from going into melee is marginal for an archer, for a combat spec very different story.
The class is about picking a focus; ranged, melee, or buffs and being great at that and then using the other features to support you doing what you are great at. Archers use melee to support when they get rushed by things, melee uses range to lay some damage down before ending the fight in melee. Buffs exploit both in order to build the best buff combinations (Boar/Stag/Oak looks good on paper) but is outdamaged by both other builds.
I doubt people will be unhappy to see archery or combat rangers, but long term they may well prefer nature builds.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
If you are not using stance switch effectively and are forcing yourself to remain in one stance far more often than the other, then you are not playing the HR to it's fullest potential.
If you are not using stance switch effectively and are forcing yourself to remain in one stance far more often than the other, then you are not playing the HR to it's fullest potential.
So; if I'm not using melee as much as I'm using ranged I'm using the class below its full potential.
Or; If I'm not using (powers that do half as much damage) as much as I'm using (my highest damaging powers) I'm using the class below its full potential.
Really?
I want to be in ranged more than melee; I'm archer spec, I want to use melee intermittently to apply buffs and generally keep out of harms way. I don't want to depend on stance switching to keep my DPS up, I want fast cool down and repeat application of my highest DPS.
Maybe if you are combat spec its more balanced.
Maybe if you are Nature spec its more balanced.
But not for an Archery spec.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
If you are ranged spec, the best thing you can do is a dungeon is stay at max range as much as possible, given a good tank and smart play. Your melee skills encounters hit for less than you ranged at wills, and you will lose time marauding in and out. If you are swarmed, sure might as well fire your melee skills before marauding out. Buffing is a bit of a problem because you are often out of range of the party.
If you are melee spec it is easier to mix in ranged attacks for opening and fire and forget like Split the Sky and Rain of Arrows. Direct damage ranged skills don't really increase your dps since you are not specced for them. A 3% damage increase doesn't really make up for the dps lost while switching, unless you are already switching to refresh rain or split the sky. You can also use ranged to pull mobs off the cleric or cw without having to run there (I removed marauder's from my bar as the dps is sub-par).
Basically, because of the hybrid nature of the class, the paragon feats are extremely powerful. They provide more than a 50% dps increase. Thus, if given the choice, you are usually better off staying in your specced stance.
If you are ranged spec, the best thing you can do is a dungeon is stay at max range as much as possible, given a good tank and smart play. Your melee skills encounters hit for less than you ranged at wills, and you will lose time marauding in and out. If you are swarmed, sure might as well fire your melee skills before marauding out. Buffing is a bit of a problem because you are often out of range of the party.
If you are melee spec it is easier to mix in ranged attacks for opening and fire and forget like Split the Sky and Rain of Arrows. Direct damage ranged skills don't really increase your dps since you are not specced for them. A 3% damage increase doesn't really make up for the dps lost while switching, unless you are already switching to refresh rain or split the sky. You can also use ranged to pull mobs off the cleric or cw without having to run there (I removed marauder's from my bar as the dps is sub-par).
Basically, because of the hybrid nature of the class, the paragon feats are extremely powerful. They provide more than a 50% dps increase. Thus, if given the choice, you are usually better off staying in your specced stance.
1 If you going for the most optimal archer you're gonna want to do melee dmg to shorten the recharge of your ranged skills The 2 combat feats Agile Hunter and seeker will only speed up your archery build and provide you more dodges. Note its worth the time to MS in and blow off a fox shift as it hits multiple times i find in a archery build fox shift/Cunning and ME/MS will be your two bread and butter skills they can both hit hard and have major utility that cant be beat. Also 3 of the archery feats effect melee also so chances of your melee skills critting is high.
2. If your Melee spec 2 of the feats in archery will boost your dps it depend on what your going for in a melee build stormcaller arrow is more effective for a melee build then a ranged build bloodthirsty is simple and dose just fine also. Split they sky is far better then rain unless rain gets a radius buff.Ranged is basically to buff for serpent and set up StS and TC FC like you mentioned. The feats in combat provide a dps mobility deflection and flat crit chance boost as well action point gain. I also find it to be the only Tree that you can spec every single point into With out suffering.
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If that is how you want to play then do so. But others do not have to play that way. We can play the way we want to play. If I want to play range spec only using NO melee skills, that is my choice. The testing of this class is to test different play styles and test the overall class. I have only tested range as that is how I play. I have said a slight increase in range damage will make the range spec more viable than what it currently is. One poster said with range spec it is like hitting with a wet noodle. Others have said who have tested melee spec have said a increase will make melee viable.
If we can get these increases then this class will be on par with the other classes. Without the increase then the class will be shunned by groups.
If that is how you want to play then do so. But others do not have to play that way. We can play the way we want to play. If I want to play range spec only using NO melee skills, that is my choice. The testing of this class is to test different play styles and test the overall class. I have only tested range as that is how I play. I have said a slight increase in range damage will make the range spec more viable than what it currently is. One poster said with range spec it is like hitting with a wet noodle. Others have said who have tested melee spec have said a increase will make melee viable.
If we can get these increases then this class will be on par with the other classes. Without the increase then the class will be shunned by groups.
If you have no intention on playing the HR the way it's meant to be played and choose a different route (pure ranger in this case) you're of course entitled to do so, but you have to live with the drawbacks of not using melee, aswell. It is how it is.
If that is how you want to play then do so. But others do not have to play that way. We can play the way we want to play. If I want to play range spec only using NO melee skills, that is my choice. The testing of this class is to test different play styles and test the overall class. I have only tested range as that is how I play. I have said a slight increase in range damage will make the range spec more viable than what it currently is. One poster said with range spec it is like hitting with a wet noodle. Others have said who have tested melee spec have said a increase will make melee viable.
If we can get these increases then this class will be on par with the other classes. Without the increase then the class will be shunned by groups.
Funny part is no one is telling you how to play just that your missing out on potential DPS and Utility for playing purely one stanced if you play purely ranged you will be on CD longer than a HR that changes it up to keep on with consistent dps hence you will do less dps over all. But by all means if you want to do only one stance go for it.
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HR is meant to be played however the person wants to. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't know why you keep talking about CDs. The only CDs I have had to deal with is split the sky and thorn ward and sometimes with ME. Split shot to pull targets in, drop split the sky and thorn ward. As that is aoeing targets, I hit them with rapid shot all the while using dodge to move around. If I need more time I will use ME to pull back for another split shot and by then split the sky and thorn ward are ready again. Did it this way all the way to 50 without a single death, yes I got down in health but I survived.
I stand by what I said. a slight increase to range and other have said an increase to melee. And the class would be ready. This is what people want. There are still things that are broken with this class, you, me and others want this to get fixed so we can play the way we want on Dec 5th. All we are going to do here is go back and forth on this issue.
Rapid shot as it stands needs to be increased some as that is a key at will with no CD, other at wills have a CD or a charge time.
even with agile hunter i cant see switching to melee would benefit u, BUT i can be wrong since i havent run ATC yet.
My toughts, u lose time while running in meleerange or even with marauders, so u get no dps in that time and also no prime critical proccs!
Also the cd's on ur range encounters arent that important since they dont rly do that much dmg, compared to other classes.
So for me it's either a range specc with agile hunter or a range specc with the feat that gives u 20% dmg bonus on max range(always forget the name).
Also let's hope they fix aspect of the lone wolf, that would benefit a full range specc even more!
With that passive working i rly dont see any reason to go into melee range.
So; if I'm not using melee as much as I'm using ranged I'm using the class below its full potential.
Or; If I'm not using (powers that do half as much damage) as much as I'm using (my highest damaging powers) I'm using the class below its full potential.
Really?
I want to be in ranged more than melee; I'm archer spec, I want to use melee intermittently to apply buffs and generally keep out of harms way. I don't want to depend on stance switching to keep my DPS up, I want fast cool down and repeat application of my highest DPS.
Maybe if you are combat spec its more balanced.
Maybe if you are Nature spec its more balanced.
But not for an Archery spec.
Even if you stay mostly ranged you are missing out on a lot of your effectiveness if you do not use melee. There is no way that a "pure ranged" HR or a "pure melee" HR can out damage a well played "hybrid". The class was designed with stance switching in mind. Not using that is like playing a GWF and never using Unstoppable.
The long cooldowns on the ranged powers make switching to melee and using some of those powers an even easier decision. Even if you are just using a buff or 2 from the melee line you are adding to your effectiveness. But many of the melee powers are quite good damage when used to supplement the ranged attacks. Avoid 1/2 of your class at your own peril.
There are reasons I run Stormstep; -3s off all Encounter CDs for 1 click of Disrupting Strike...
What is this long cooldown you are talking about 2-3s? Is that long?
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1
dheffernanMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
edited November 2013
I've played the class to 39 on Test and here's my take on it.
HR's have solid enough bread-and-butter abilities to do well, with good gear (mine has all rank 5-7 enchants and a Lilend I've been saving on Live for the eventual release of rangers) and some skill in managing the melee/ranged hybrid nature of the class. My Test HR has not died even once, to the best of my recollections. But HRs have to work harder than other classes to do it and ultimately suffer from the same problem that has plagued "ranger" archetypes in every MMO I've ever seen except perhaps WoW: they are bad at many things and good at nothing.
Don't get me wrong. I'll be playing one on Live, I'm even looking forward to it. But that's mainly because I love rangers. I wouldn't kick an HR out of a queue group but then I wouldn't kick any class out of a queue group; I'd only ever kick someone because the player was incompetent or a jerk. If I were putting together a team by hand there'd never be an HR on it unless no one else was available. A five man team has one tank, one healer and three DPS. HRs aren't the tank or the healer so that leaves DPS, which they're not good at. A lacklustre suite of buffs doesn't fit into the picture. An HR whose Encounter slots are filled with buffs will suffer a crippling loss of DPS, which will negatively impact party performance far more than the buffs will compensate for. If you view team construction from a strictly utilitarian (min-max) perspective with no availability issues there is simply no reason to ever put an HR on a team, and that means no matter how much fun I personally might have playing one, the class is a loss.
@Venture-1@Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that far back. Yes, *that* Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. For me it was Tuesday.
Even if you stay mostly ranged you are missing out on a lot of your effectiveness if you do not use melee. There is no way that a "pure ranged" HR or a "pure melee" HR can out damage a well played "hybrid". The class was designed with stance switching in mind. Not using that is like playing a GWF and never using Unstoppable.
The long cooldowns on the ranged powers make switching to melee and using some of those powers an even easier decision. Even if you are just using a buff or 2 from the melee line you are adding to your effectiveness. But many of the melee powers are quite good damage when used to supplement the ranged attacks. Avoid 1/2 of your class at your own peril.
I rly doubt that.
Anyway there is still no point in bringing a HR over another cw, if its either hybrid, support or whatever.
I've played the class to 39 on Test and here's my take on it.
HR's have solid enough bread-and-butter abilities to do well, with good gear (mine has all rank 5-7 enchants and a Lilend I've been saving on Live for the eventual release of rangers) and some skill in managing the melee/ranged hybrid nature of the class. My Test HR has not died even once, to the best of my recollections. But HRs have to work harder than other classes to do it and ultimately suffer from the same problem that has plagued "ranger" archetypes in every MMO I've ever seen except perhaps WoW: they are bad at many things and good at nothing.
Don't get me wrong. I'll be playing one on Live, I'm even looking forward to it. But that's mainly because I love rangers. I wouldn't kick an HR out of a queue group but then I wouldn't kick any class out of a queue group; I'd only ever kick someone because the player was incompetent or a jerk. If I were putting together a team by hand there'd never be an HR on it unless no one else was available. A five man team has one tank, one healer and three DPS. HRs aren't the tank or the healer so that leaves DPS, which they're not good at. A lacklustre suite of buffs doesn't fit into the picture. An HR whose Encounter slots are filled with buffs will suffer a crippling loss of DPS, which will negatively impact party performance far more than the buffs will compensate for. If you view team construction from a strictly utilitarian (min-max) perspective with no availability issues there is simply no reason to ever put an HR on a team, and that means no matter how much fun I personally might have playing one, the class is a loss.
Hit 60 get forest lord gear set up a proper nature ranger everyone and there grandma will want you in there group just by being in the group a ranger can boost overall party DPS and not have to left a finger. When just being in your group means you grant every one perma combat advantage you can also grant everyone a free dodge Fox Cunning very consistently as well as boost party members stats FL gear and Mobility even if a nature ranger doesn't top the dps charts the buffs they bring to a party justify them being brought to a group no one wants to talk about what the class seem to be very good at buffing
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Hit 60 get forest lord gear set up a proper nature ranger everyone and there grandma will want you in there group just by being in the group a ranger can boost overall party DPS and not have to left a finger. When just being in your group means you grant every one perma combat advantage you can also grant everyone a free dodge Fox Cunning very consistently as well as boost party members stats FL gear and Mobility even if a nature ranger doesn't top the dps charts the buffs they bring to a party justify them being brought to a group no one wants to talk about what the class seem to be very good at buffing
No one with half a brain need the extra dodge and other classes can give u CA aswell, and i doubt anyone wants to have a bad dps class for the extra 500 power or recovery ect...
Yes the buffs are decent like oak skin and stag heart but that doesnt justify bringing a ranger over any other class!
And that everyone will always have CA is just nonsense, since everyone will dodge in other directions and the range isnt huge enough to buff ur tr/gwf/gf and ur cw/dc.
Therefor nightmare wizardry is way better if u rly want the CA.
Right now u can only compare a HR and a dps dc in terms of potential and everyone knows how much ppl play dps cleric or are used to fill groups.
If u want a class that has a permanent slot in every group, u either need to be better than a cw(melting trash/cc), a dc(support/heal) or a tr(runner/singletarget dps) or be equal with a mix of those, and HR isnt even close to those classes.
That's just the same issue with gwf and gf.
No one with half a brain need the extra dodge and other classes can give u CA aswell, and i doubt anyone wants to have a bad dps class for the extra 500 power or recovery ect...
Yes the buffs are decent like oak skin and stag heart but that doesnt justify bringing a ranger over any other class!
And that everyone will always have CA is just nonsense, since everyone will dodge in other directions and the range isnt huge enough to buff ur tr/gwf/gf and ur cw/dc.
Therefor nightmare wizardry is way better if u rly want the CA.
Right now u can only compare a HR and a dps dc in terms of potential and everyone knows how much ppl play dps cleric or are used to fill groups.
If u want a class that has a permanent slot in every group, u either need to be better than a cw(melting trash/cc), a dc(support/heal) or a tr(runner/singletarget dps) or be equal with a mix of those, and HR isnt even close to those classes.
That's just the same issue with gwf and gf.
CA from from aspect of pack is way more consistent then any other skill that mite Give CA the drawback being its range but the range fluxes depending on what stance your in at the time and were your standing you could be missing the CW in the back but then again if the CW has Nightmare then its no big deal also one thing to note no one is perfect but with pack aspect you guarantee at least 3 people are doing CA if you're cycling through your stances more people depending on your wide range/position The run speed buff people get from you buffing them only help get them back in position to get the dmg buff. Stormstep only help's boost buff usage more not running that and disrupting with a nature build is wtf.
Your FC mite save a person who makes a bad dodge could save a DC or TR who ****s up its kinda like insurance its convenient and helps the cleric out and you're still providing your own dps. If you can save someone or the cleric from a **** up thats more overall dps caused no one has to stop and res there *** and lose out on DPS. FL armor is just a kinda icing on the cake for a buffing ranger grand warden also works even the T1 pvp Set if you run nature Oh and royal guard makes getting more skills off CD easier.
With all the boons and Pet Passives out there there are many ways to build a HR and we will just have to see on live what the class can really bring to the table once the bugs have been fixed. They may not have CW or TR DPS but to say they have nothing to offer the party is wrong. You must think outside the box of what the class can provide for a party is it needed to be the best no is it helpful **** straight. But is PvE really that hard in neverwinter to the point of excluding a class from a group. That said having a guild helps also.
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There are reasons I run Stormstep; -3s off all Encounter CDs for 1 click of Disrupting Strike...
What is this long cooldown you are talking about 2-3s? Is that long?
You are so far away from reality that there is no discussion worth having. Good luck with your playstyle, just don't complain that you are "gimped" when you will not use half of your class. And now I am done with this discussion. If we want to get back to talking about which powers still need a buff then I would love to continue.
0
dheffernanMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
edited November 2013
just by being in the group a ranger can boost overall party DPS and not have to left a finger.
Yes, but they're not going to boost it by very much. Not as much as the team is losing by using an HR over a better class.
@Venture-1@Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that far back. Yes, *that* Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. For me it was Tuesday.
Yes, but they're not going to boost it by very much. Not as much as the team is losing by using an HR over a better class.
I will summarize my above post a DPS Boost from CA just being in the party FC can also help the dps stay consistent because if someone manages to avoid a fatal blow the dps dose not have to stop to res that person who mite also die trying to revive said person. There also a very good class to spread Plague Fire Terror enchant debuffs with. Not to mention the boons from shrandar and and Dread Ring There is also a artifact that boost the dmg CA dose so if any one in party has that thats even more dps.
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You are so far away from reality that there is no discussion worth having. Good luck with your playstyle, just don't complain that you are "gimped" when you will not use half of your class. And now I am done with this discussion. If we want to get back to talking about which powers still need a buff then I would love to continue.
Have you seen me complain about being "gimped"? No.
Have you seen me say stance switching is advantageous? Yes.
You complain that cooldown is too long on Ranged powers but ignore the simple solutions to that problem instead insisting that the only way to "win" at the class is to spend 1/3 of your time minimum in the lower dps stance.
The last one is my default now; maximum dps for blasting mobs and faster cooldowns on my encounters (typically Constricting/Commanding/Fox's, or Constricting/Thorn Ward/Fox's) in both stances. I rarely need to use more than Fox's in melee. I melee strike after a cycle of ranged powers & combat is done is the norm except on boss fights.
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Yes, but they're not going to boost it by very much. Not as much as the team is losing by using an HR over a better class.
dheffernan play to 60 and see how Stag/Oak/Fox work at 39 you really have no idea how a 60 ranger will function in a party you haven't even hit some of the best powers. (Fox in particular, I was skeptical about it until I started using it).
Consider this;
Before the fight give every party member 2k temp hp and make the first on attack miss everyone and during the fight debuff the elite interrupt the elite and give everyone CA while doing good (just behind CW) DPS as well as restoring those temps and giving the 100% dodge.
No you are not going to replace the DC, but replace the 2nd CW, no problems.
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Comments
I didn't post the blog to point out a bad rotation i pointed it out to say the dev meant for the class to switch stances if your not switching stances as intended your gimping your dps. If i wanted to point out a rotation i wouldn't have used the horrible one mentioned in his post i would have just given you my normal ingame rotation.
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Aimed Shot got a faster animation and the melee version is no longer interruptable by damage.
Rapid Shot & Split Shot had their damage increased again after the nerf. (Not back to the initial craziness but increased regardless.)
Visual changes (gear etc) have been much requested and have followed feedback.
What has, however, been lacking is responses to this thread. Many of those updates have also been stealth fixes not appearing in patch notes.
Main outstanding issues are;
Seismic Shot vfx still bugged.
Aspect of the Lone Wolf still ineffctive.
With the long weekend in the US we will be lucky to see those things fixed before it goes live I expect.
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Did you read all 3 paragraphs you quoted or just reply after the first sentance?
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A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I read it but felt the need to retaliate after the first sentence tee hee hee
I will agree With this that people need to stop looking outside their own selfish dps though and look at what the ranger can bring just being in the party. With A Nature spec Forest Lord Armor and Aspect of the pack a ranger can dramatically boost the party's overall dps/Survivability. Ranger is by far the best offensive support class i have seen if you utilise all the equipment and skills.
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But I want to test the effectiveness of the build in solo play while leveling.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I would make a second ranger just for nature spec forest lord gear gives you a ton of recovery Intelligence would greatly help that build type. I think though the buff range needs to be boosted a lil so the buffs hit the party a lot more easily.
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Of course if it's just going to be pvp for you then that's different, but make no mistake, the nature rangers will be the most sought after for groups followed by the full on hybrids. The rest just wont bring enough to the table to be worth a spot in the group.
Bad class design? Not so much as bad play style choices methinks.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
Hawkeye: This skill is a pitiful buff as here is a better alternative let it guarantee your next x Number of attacks Crit like 2 for the first point spent then 2 more for each rank.
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And pray tell how are you going to dual spec?
If you think people will not want Archer spec HRs in parties you are sorely mistaken, access to group buffs and solid to high dps with the right build/gear. Hitting 24% ArP and critting close to 75% of the time with >80% severity without using a Vorpal. You'll spend seconds in melee stance to buff and otherwise rain damage from afar.
The DPS gain from going into melee is marginal for an archer, for a combat spec very different story.
The class is about picking a focus; ranged, melee, or buffs and being great at that and then using the other features to support you doing what you are great at. Archers use melee to support when they get rushed by things, melee uses range to lay some damage down before ending the fight in melee. Buffs exploit both in order to build the best buff combinations (Boar/Stag/Oak looks good on paper) but is outdamaged by both other builds.
I doubt people will be unhappy to see archery or combat rangers, but long term they may well prefer nature builds.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
So; if I'm not using melee as much as I'm using ranged I'm using the class below its full potential.
Or; If I'm not using (powers that do half as much damage) as much as I'm using (my highest damaging powers) I'm using the class below its full potential.
Really?
I want to be in ranged more than melee; I'm archer spec, I want to use melee intermittently to apply buffs and generally keep out of harms way. I don't want to depend on stance switching to keep my DPS up, I want fast cool down and repeat application of my highest DPS.
Maybe if you are combat spec its more balanced.
Maybe if you are Nature spec its more balanced.
But not for an Archery spec.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
If you are ranged spec, the best thing you can do is a dungeon is stay at max range as much as possible, given a good tank and smart play. Your melee skills encounters hit for less than you ranged at wills, and you will lose time marauding in and out. If you are swarmed, sure might as well fire your melee skills before marauding out. Buffing is a bit of a problem because you are often out of range of the party.
If you are melee spec it is easier to mix in ranged attacks for opening and fire and forget like Split the Sky and Rain of Arrows. Direct damage ranged skills don't really increase your dps since you are not specced for them. A 3% damage increase doesn't really make up for the dps lost while switching, unless you are already switching to refresh rain or split the sky. You can also use ranged to pull mobs off the cleric or cw without having to run there (I removed marauder's from my bar as the dps is sub-par).
Basically, because of the hybrid nature of the class, the paragon feats are extremely powerful. They provide more than a 50% dps increase. Thus, if given the choice, you are usually better off staying in your specced stance.
1 If you going for the most optimal archer you're gonna want to do melee dmg to shorten the recharge of your ranged skills The 2 combat feats Agile Hunter and seeker will only speed up your archery build and provide you more dodges. Note its worth the time to MS in and blow off a fox shift as it hits multiple times i find in a archery build fox shift/Cunning and ME/MS will be your two bread and butter skills they can both hit hard and have major utility that cant be beat. Also 3 of the archery feats effect melee also so chances of your melee skills critting is high.
2. If your Melee spec 2 of the feats in archery will boost your dps it depend on what your going for in a melee build stormcaller arrow is more effective for a melee build then a ranged build bloodthirsty is simple and dose just fine also. Split they sky is far better then rain unless rain gets a radius buff.Ranged is basically to buff for serpent and set up StS and TC FC like you mentioned. The feats in combat provide a dps mobility deflection and flat crit chance boost as well action point gain. I also find it to be the only Tree that you can spec every single point into With out suffering.
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If we can get these increases then this class will be on par with the other classes. Without the increase then the class will be shunned by groups.
If you have no intention on playing the HR the way it's meant to be played and choose a different route (pure ranger in this case) you're of course entitled to do so, but you have to live with the drawbacks of not using melee, aswell. It is how it is.
Take care.
Funny part is no one is telling you how to play just that your missing out on potential DPS and Utility for playing purely one stanced if you play purely ranged you will be on CD longer than a HR that changes it up to keep on with consistent dps hence you will do less dps over all. But by all means if you want to do only one stance go for it.
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I stand by what I said. a slight increase to range and other have said an increase to melee. And the class would be ready. This is what people want. There are still things that are broken with this class, you, me and others want this to get fixed so we can play the way we want on Dec 5th. All we are going to do here is go back and forth on this issue.
Rapid shot as it stands needs to be increased some as that is a key at will with no CD, other at wills have a CD or a charge time.
My toughts, u lose time while running in meleerange or even with marauders, so u get no dps in that time and also no prime critical proccs!
Also the cd's on ur range encounters arent that important since they dont rly do that much dmg, compared to other classes.
So for me it's either a range specc with agile hunter or a range specc with the feat that gives u 20% dmg bonus on max range(always forget the name).
Also let's hope they fix aspect of the lone wolf, that would benefit a full range specc even more!
With that passive working i rly dont see any reason to go into melee range.
Even if you stay mostly ranged you are missing out on a lot of your effectiveness if you do not use melee. There is no way that a "pure ranged" HR or a "pure melee" HR can out damage a well played "hybrid". The class was designed with stance switching in mind. Not using that is like playing a GWF and never using Unstoppable.
The long cooldowns on the ranged powers make switching to melee and using some of those powers an even easier decision. Even if you are just using a buff or 2 from the melee line you are adding to your effectiveness. But many of the melee powers are quite good damage when used to supplement the ranged attacks. Avoid 1/2 of your class at your own peril.
What is this long cooldown you are talking about 2-3s? Is that long?
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
HR's have solid enough bread-and-butter abilities to do well, with good gear (mine has all rank 5-7 enchants and a Lilend I've been saving on Live for the eventual release of rangers) and some skill in managing the melee/ranged hybrid nature of the class. My Test HR has not died even once, to the best of my recollections. But HRs have to work harder than other classes to do it and ultimately suffer from the same problem that has plagued "ranger" archetypes in every MMO I've ever seen except perhaps WoW: they are bad at many things and good at nothing.
Don't get me wrong. I'll be playing one on Live, I'm even looking forward to it. But that's mainly because I love rangers. I wouldn't kick an HR out of a queue group but then I wouldn't kick any class out of a queue group; I'd only ever kick someone because the player was incompetent or a jerk. If I were putting together a team by hand there'd never be an HR on it unless no one else was available. A five man team has one tank, one healer and three DPS. HRs aren't the tank or the healer so that leaves DPS, which they're not good at. A lacklustre suite of buffs doesn't fit into the picture. An HR whose Encounter slots are filled with buffs will suffer a crippling loss of DPS, which will negatively impact party performance far more than the buffs will compensate for. If you view team construction from a strictly utilitarian (min-max) perspective with no availability issues there is simply no reason to ever put an HR on a team, and that means no matter how much fun I personally might have playing one, the class is a loss.
I rly doubt that.
Anyway there is still no point in bringing a HR over another cw, if its either hybrid, support or whatever.
Hit 60 get forest lord gear set up a proper nature ranger everyone and there grandma will want you in there group just by being in the group a ranger can boost overall party DPS and not have to left a finger. When just being in your group means you grant every one perma combat advantage you can also grant everyone a free dodge Fox Cunning very consistently as well as boost party members stats FL gear and Mobility even if a nature ranger doesn't top the dps charts the buffs they bring to a party justify them being brought to a group no one wants to talk about what the class seem to be very good at buffing
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No one with half a brain need the extra dodge and other classes can give u CA aswell, and i doubt anyone wants to have a bad dps class for the extra 500 power or recovery ect...
Yes the buffs are decent like oak skin and stag heart but that doesnt justify bringing a ranger over any other class!
And that everyone will always have CA is just nonsense, since everyone will dodge in other directions and the range isnt huge enough to buff ur tr/gwf/gf and ur cw/dc.
Therefor nightmare wizardry is way better if u rly want the CA.
Right now u can only compare a HR and a dps dc in terms of potential and everyone knows how much ppl play dps cleric or are used to fill groups.
If u want a class that has a permanent slot in every group, u either need to be better than a cw(melting trash/cc), a dc(support/heal) or a tr(runner/singletarget dps) or be equal with a mix of those, and HR isnt even close to those classes.
That's just the same issue with gwf and gf.
CA from from aspect of pack is way more consistent then any other skill that mite Give CA the drawback being its range but the range fluxes depending on what stance your in at the time and were your standing you could be missing the CW in the back but then again if the CW has Nightmare then its no big deal also one thing to note no one is perfect but with pack aspect you guarantee at least 3 people are doing CA if you're cycling through your stances more people depending on your wide range/position The run speed buff people get from you buffing them only help get them back in position to get the dmg buff. Stormstep only help's boost buff usage more not running that and disrupting with a nature build is wtf.
Your FC mite save a person who makes a bad dodge could save a DC or TR who ****s up its kinda like insurance its convenient and helps the cleric out and you're still providing your own dps. If you can save someone or the cleric from a **** up thats more overall dps caused no one has to stop and res there *** and lose out on DPS. FL armor is just a kinda icing on the cake for a buffing ranger grand warden also works even the T1 pvp Set if you run nature Oh and royal guard makes getting more skills off CD easier.
With all the boons and Pet Passives out there there are many ways to build a HR and we will just have to see on live what the class can really bring to the table once the bugs have been fixed. They may not have CW or TR DPS but to say they have nothing to offer the party is wrong. You must think outside the box of what the class can provide for a party is it needed to be the best no is it helpful **** straight. But is PvE really that hard in neverwinter to the point of excluding a class from a group. That said having a guild helps also.
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You are so far away from reality that there is no discussion worth having. Good luck with your playstyle, just don't complain that you are "gimped" when you will not use half of your class. And now I am done with this discussion. If we want to get back to talking about which powers still need a buff then I would love to continue.
Yes, but they're not going to boost it by very much. Not as much as the team is losing by using an HR over a better class.
I will summarize my above post a DPS Boost from CA just being in the party FC can also help the dps stay consistent because if someone manages to avoid a fatal blow the dps dose not have to stop to res that person who mite also die trying to revive said person. There also a very good class to spread Plague Fire Terror enchant debuffs with. Not to mention the boons from shrandar and and Dread Ring There is also a artifact that boost the dmg CA dose so if any one in party has that thats even more dps.
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Have you seen me complain about being "gimped"? No.
Have you seen me say stance switching is advantageous? Yes.
You complain that cooldown is too long on Ranged powers but ignore the simple solutions to that problem instead insisting that the only way to "win" at the class is to spend 1/3 of your time minimum in the lower dps stance.
I've run
Serpent/Pack
Serpent/Bladestorm
Serpent/Twinblade
Serpent/Stormstep
Pack/Bladestorm
Pack/Twinblade
Pack/Stormstep
Hawk/Stormstep
Hawk/Twinblade
Stormstep/Twinblade
The last one is my default now; maximum dps for blasting mobs and faster cooldowns on my encounters (typically Constricting/Commanding/Fox's, or Constricting/Thorn Ward/Fox's) in both stances. I rarely need to use more than Fox's in melee. I melee strike after a cycle of ranged powers & combat is done is the norm except on boss fights.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
dheffernan play to 60 and see how Stag/Oak/Fox work at 39 you really have no idea how a 60 ranger will function in a party you haven't even hit some of the best powers. (Fox in particular, I was skeptical about it until I started using it).
Consider this;
Before the fight give every party member 2k temp hp and make the first on attack miss everyone and during the fight debuff the elite interrupt the elite and give everyone CA while doing good (just behind CW) DPS as well as restoring those temps and giving the 100% dodge.
No you are not going to replace the DC, but replace the 2nd CW, no problems.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.