In my case, yes, the new way is faster, but not cheaper.
And it's not really much more expensive either. As long as catalysts sell for a decent price on AH or aren't too hard to farm, the price point overall will be close or lower.
One of the reasons I keep hammering on value, is that if you pay attention, it is many times cheaper to sell your materials to go from rank 4 to whatever rank on the AH and simply buy rank you wanted. I have seen rank 7 darks go for 160-170K AD on Ah and if you sold the 74-75 rank 4s and the 8.3333 P. Wards you needed, you could sell all of that for 183K or more. With the AH cut, they come out to the same price approximately. Considering I can sell more things from farming than I can farm rank 4 darks, that it would take me 2 weeks to get 8+ P. Wards from invocation from 6 characters, it is much mroe efficient for me to farm enchants, sell the ones I do not need and when I have enough AD to cover the cost difference between how many rank 4 darks I have and the rank 7 I want, I buy the rest of the materials.
Now that I have all rank 7s on my 2 primary characters, I would much rather upgrade my weapon and armor enchants while I wait for module 2, because then I only have to worry about going form rank 7 to 8 to replace my 7s, instead of from 4 to 8 all over again. Even with the AD cost and the catalyst cost, it will cost me less overall to upgrade in that manner.
So there you go.
Edit:
Example time
Currently going from rank 7 slotted enchants to 8 will cost me:
298.7 matching rank 4s
37.3 P. Wards
or
224 matching rank 4s
29 P. Wards
103K AD to unslot my rank 7 (pointless for any enchant that is not an Azure, Radiant, or Dark)
Under new system to upgrade from rank 7 to 8
192 Matching Rank 4s (128 for refinement + 64 for rank 7 matching for catalyst) or 1 matching + 382 non-matching ranks 4s.
4 P. Wards
1 Epic Catalyst (100K AD or probably a lot less less from AH or farm it, possibly from a daily solo dungeon in new area)
3 Rare Catalysts (25K AD each or less from AH, possibly farm)
The only real question is catalysts in this scenario, and we probably won;t really know until the dust settles on the economy or each way to farm them is clearly understood.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Now that I have all rank 7s on my 2 primary characters, I would much rather upgrade my weapon and armor enchants while I wait for module 2
Because the armor and weapon enchantment upgrades will use far fewer resources than under the current system, it really makes sense right now to fuse yourself a bunch of lessers and then wait to improve them... something I am personally kicking myself over.
Just because you opt out of using the AH, does not mean they don't have a value attached to them.
Whilst they arguably may have a value in the greater economic picture, the subjective value to the "owner" can still be zero, or at least whatever you could vendor them for. Since you aren't forced to involve yourself in the AH economy, you can remain completely isolated.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited November 2013
. . . . . I'm sorry but it is far more expensive to me than it was. I paid nothing and choose to pay nothing. Now that choice is being taken from me with mandatory costs. All of my enchantments are useful to me, I do not want to sell them just to afford to upgrade one. Nor do I want to eat them all up to build up one. The system was fine, it just needed love. It didn't need to be removed and replaced.
. . . . .Just because one may have the AD to blow around or wishes to trade, buy or sell for their enchantments, that doesn't mean we all should have to. Which, this is what this new system will be doing. Forcing everyone to play the AD grind game to increase the efficiency of their characters. Before, I could just play the game itself, have fun and not worry about the stupid Astral Diamond cash cow mechanics of the game to increase my character's stats. Now, in this new system, raw power is now even more prevalently available for RTM transactions. Actually, I even dare say it seems encouraged.
. . . . . The marketing of this game is horrendous now and this new system just proves it. The In-Game Economy should never have been mixed with RTM. The Zen Shop should have been its own from the get-go. Everything that costs ADs in the game should instead cost in-game coins (gold/silver/copper) and the Zen market left to its own accord as Cash Only purchases.
. . . . .This game is so close to no longer even having a resemblance of a casual-friendly game. It's turning into one huge, repetitive, grind-fest. This new refinement system just compounds that greater.
Because the armor and weapon enchantment upgrades will use far fewer resources than under the current system, it really makes sense right now to fuse yourself a bunch of lessers and then wait to improve them... something I am personally kicking myself over.
I am actually only upgrading to perfect bronzewood since I am not sure they will be around anymore after new module, and since they are at normal already, they are cheap to upgrade right now.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I think some ppl are highly overestimating the average wealth of players. Guys claim to spend millions of ADs on Perfects at the AH, but these are maybe the top 5% that own an absurd amount of ADs through exploiting (no offense, but you know its true), spending money or grinding certain dungeons till their eyes bleed.
I personally am very active, but have to adjust my playstyle a lot to cover the new mandatory expenses. I'll probably start running CN more frequently or generally grind for AD revenue over gear that my chars actually need. I gladly will have build up enough R7s to equip a double digit amount of new chars by the time Shadowmantle hits live, so I won't have to deal with the new refinement system in an area where it hurts the most, but instead can benefit from lowered costs of R8+.
There was a poll on the board how much ADs players generate and nearly 50% make less than 24k. I would say the actual amount is much higher, because more active players also tend to contribute on message boards. These players need roughly a week to gather the ADs for one R7, so 9 weeks to fully enchant a char. That's simply too much. As said: With Fey Blessing Enchantments, you should be able to grind the needed enchants in a fraction of that time now. That's quite a change in an area that affects the majority of players.
I'm sorry but it is far more expensive to me than it was. I paid nothing and choose to pay nothing. Now that choice is being taken from me with mandatory costs. All of my enchantments are useful to me, I do not want to sell them just to afford to upgrade one. Nor do I want to eat them all up to build up one. The system was fine, it just needed love. It didn't need to be removed and replaced.
So we are losing the option to build up from R6 (cheap and easy in both systems) to R10 without more fully engaging the game's content (selling drops on the AH, doing regular dailies, salvaging, using cash, etc). To me it does not make sense that some players' aversion, seemingly philosophical, to certain aspects of the game should prevent the implementation of a system that, in ways well documented in this thread, promises to improve the ease of upgrading enchants (and moving them around in gear) for those of us who do more fully engage the game's content. I look forward to the new system, and to my soon-to-be-free bag space.
31K AD from rank 4 to rank 7. That means our average player would have to average less than 5K AD a day to gather enough AD for one rank 7. If the average free player has 2 characters, leadership should be high enough for them to get at least 3200 AD per character only updating it twice a day at rank 10. That alone is 6400 AD a day. Throw in a 3-4 dailies a week, about 4 hours of playing time all week, and that is anywhere from 24-48K AD. We are at about 68-92K AD a week. That covers the cost for 2-3 rank 7s.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
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rapticorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,078Arc User
31K AD from rank 4 to rank 7. That means our average player would have to average less than 5K AD a day to gather enough AD for one rank 7. If the average free player has 2 characters, leadership should be high enough for them to get at least 3200 AD per character only updating it twice a day at rank 10. That alone is 6400 AD a day. Throw in a 3-4 dailies a week, about 4 hours of playing time all week, and that is anywhere from 24-48K AD. We are at about 68-92K AD a week. That covers the cost for 2-3 rank 7s.
So people should use all their generated AD simply for upgrading enchantments? You do know there are a lot more uses for AD already currently in the game right?
So people should use all their generated AD simply for upgrading enchantments? You do know there are a lot more uses for AD already currently in the game right?
I thought we weren't participating in the AH? Or the zen store? You could buy and upgrade gear, in which case you aren't even worrying about enchants. With the new system you can at least use those enchants on your current gear instead of hoarding them for once your gear is upgraded. What else are we buying? 2 packs of cheap dye maybe? 100K AD isn't even enough for one pack of black dye, yet will cover your costs to go to rank 7 on 3 enchants.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
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orangefireeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,148Arc User
. . . . . I'm sorry but it is far more expensive to me than it was. I paid nothing and choose to pay nothing. Now that choice is being taken from me with mandatory costs. All of my enchantments are useful to me, I do not want to sell them just to afford to upgrade one. Nor do I want to eat them all up to build up one. The system was fine, it just needed love. It didn't need to be removed and replaced.
. . . . .Just because one may have the AD to blow around or wishes to trade, buy or sell for their enchantments, that doesn't mean we all should have to. Which, this is what this new system will be doing. Forcing everyone to play the AD grind game to increase the efficiency of their characters. Before, I could just play the game itself, have fun and not worry about the stupid Astral Diamond cash cow mechanics of the game to increase my character's stats. Now, in this new system, raw power is now even more prevalently available for RTM transactions. Actually, I even dare say it seems encouraged.
. . . . . The marketing of this game is horrendous now and this new system just proves it. The In-Game Economy should never have been mixed with RTM. The Zen Shop should have been its own from the get-go. Everything that costs ADs in the game should instead cost in-game coins (gold/silver/copper) and the Zen market left to its own accord as Cash Only purchases.
. . . . .This game is so close to no longer even having a resemblance of a casual-friendly game. It's turning into one huge, repetitive, grind-fest. This new refinement system just compounds that greater.
Maybe it costs more astral diamonds than previously, but now I can take out enhancements for gold and upgrade them in my gear. Under the old system, I was afraid to use enhancements other than my free hero of the north ones. I also like that I have some choice in what enhancements I upgrade. I am personally willing to spend a few astral diamonds to make enhancements more than just a collection in my inventory. I don't want to argue, I am just giving my opinion of the enhancement system.
Neverwinter players are stubborn things....until you strip them down to bone. (Cursed players, my flowers, MINE!) Oh how I plotted their demise.
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
edited November 2013
Hello Shiralac,
first, thank you for your posts! I enjoyed reading them all and IMHO they are very well written and argumentative well done. I'm quite sure that you fully understand the logic behind the arguments of the "yay" sayers, therefore I'll not insult your intelligence and continue arguing about cost or value.
You even acknowledged it in one of your posts and hold your stance on preferring the new refining system over the present Fusing system.
Yes, I do acknowledge the reasoning of the "nay" sayers. I just have a different view on it, but I see the logic behind it. Let me try to take another vantage point...
I don't see why you would want to purchase your runes/enchantments, from the AH. It's easy to farm, well at level 60 that is.
I do value my time above all else (and on a sidenote: no, I don't get enough enchantments/runestones during dungeon runs and I run a lot). Therefore I do not farm enchantments--as I don't consider my time "free". I believe that is the main difference behind the "yay" and "nay" sayers.
But, as some of the "yay" sayers put it, you should be able to farm the required enchantments faster, as in the current system. Couldn't you use that freed time to do an (additional) Daily in order to get the AD required for the upgrade?
So we are losing the option to build up from R6 (cheap and easy in both systems) to R10 without more fully engaging the game's content (selling drops on the AH, doing regular dailies, salvaging, using cash, etc). To me it does not make sense that some players' aversion, seemingly philosophical, to certain aspects of the game should prevent the implementation of a system that, in ways well documented in this thread, promises to improve the ease of upgrading enchants (and moving them around in gear) for those of us who do more fully engage the game's content. I look forward to the new system, and to my soon-to-be-free bag space.
I'd be very surprised if we see sweeping changing to the proposed system. As mentioned earlier the areas under discussion are "what it takes to Upgrade an item - meaning the AD Cost, Catalysts and Wards part of the system". Depite the fact that there's a decent amount of negative feedback in this thread, it doesn't mean it's going to influence the final version - people objected to the companion upgrade costs in preview, they didn't change on release. I expect this to go live and then get evaluated over to time to see whether it solves the problems the devs identified with the old system.
31K AD from rank 4 to rank 7. That means our average player would have to average less than 5K AD a day to gather enough AD for one rank 7. If the average free player has 2 characters, leadership should be high enough for them to get at least 3200 AD per character only updating it twice a day at rank 10. That alone is 6400 AD a day. Throw in a 3-4 dailies a week, about 4 hours of playing time all week, and that is anywhere from 24-48K AD. We are at about 68-92K AD a week. That covers the cost for 2-3 rank 7s.
31k is without the Catalysts but to truly compare the systems from R5-R7 you have to include the expenses for them as well, because the needed amount of R4s is about the same. If not the ADs, you have to at least invest more time grinding the Catalysts, which shouldn't be ignored.
You might just get enough material from running dungeons, but that's not a given for me. So I'd rather calculate with 122k per R7 at this point.
I cost you time, did it not? Just curious to know.
Not speaking for everyone. But for myself, no, It didn't.
In nearly all cases, my earned enchantments were simply a bonus. A byproduct of my normal playing. Not so much an investment of time. But more like earned interest by simply having an account. I played how I wanted, and did the things I wanted to accomplish, and the enchantments simply came as a result of that. In the same way ive earned gold, but never had to farm for it.
So no, there was no real time involved earning them. I would of done the same things weather I earned enchantments from it or not. Any more then watching interest build from a larger investment. The investment is where the time is focused, the interest is the bonus. However, if you tried to rationalize taking someones interest away, simply because its a minor extra. Or locking it behind some form of use fee. I expect you would find it hard to get folks to warm up to that idea.
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dalang3dMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 29Arc User
edited November 2013
Astral Diamonds are no longer required to upgrade items.
Nice Decision Dev :cool:
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gipsylassMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 61
edited November 2013
Feedback: Admittedly I'm more confused now. Has something been changed or did I miss something? Tried the refining again today and wanted to test some weapon / armor enchantments. First of all - strangely enough - some, but not all weapon/armour enchants didn't need any refinement by filling up the refinement slots with other enchantments - their refinement "bar" was already "full" and I don't have the slightest idea why as I had just freshly copied that char to Preview.
Second - they didn't need any of the new catalysts either - instead the catalysts were enchants of the same sort. So all I needed was a ward (as before).
Has this been this way all the time or was it just recently changed? - and -
Why were some- but not all - weapon /armour enchants' refinement "bars" already "filled up"? Is this a bug?
I also tried refinement with a "normal" enchantment - Level 5 to 6, it used up three other enchants of the same kind for refining, plus a catalyst (25 k) and 5k AD. I don't count the ward as this would have been needed in the old system as well. But - this definitely makes the new system more expensive as with the old system I only needed 4 enchants plus ward.
Last - NOT least - if this system goes live in spite of all the negative feedback posted here - it will definitely need a LOT of explanation, as it is very / too complicated.
PS: I tested this before any new patch was downloaded.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I've updated my analysis with a comparison to the current system and added feedback:
Amount of matching R4s (accumulative) consumed in refining process:
4 (4) for a R4 (1 base, 3 for the RPs) 12 (16) for a R5 48 (64) for a R6 192 (256) for a R7 (128 to refine the R7 itself and 64 R4s for the R7 Catalyst) 640 (896) for a R8 (384 to refine the R8 itself and 256 R4s for the R8 Catalyst) 2048 (2944) for a R9 (1152 to refine the R9 itself and 896 R4s for the R9 Catalyst)
4.67 (4.67) to upgrade R4 14.01 (18.68) to upgrade R5 56.04 (74.72) to upgrade R6 224.16 (298.88) to upgrade R7 896.64 (1195.52) to upgrade R8 3586.56 (4782.08) to upgrade R9
Note: This calculation assumes that you use PWards starting with R6s, which is not always the best option (especially for Silverys)
Analysis: The amount of enchants is reduced, slightly for R5-R8, majorly for R9/R10. The ability to use non-matching enchants will speed up the process additionally.
Amount of matching Shards (accumulative) consumed in refining/upgrading process:
4 (4) for a Shard (1 base, 3 for the RPs) 12 (16) for a Lesser (8 to refine the Lesser itself and one 4 Shards for the Lesser Catalyst) 40 (56) for a Normal (24 to refine the Normal itself and 16 Shards for the Normal Catalyst) 128 (184) for a Greater (72 to refine the Greater itself and 56 Shards for the Greater Catalysts)
Note: The minimum amount of matching Shards needed is 4 (Lesser), 8 (Normal), 16 (Greater), 32 (Perfect).
4 (4) to upgrade Shard 12 (16) to upgrade Lesser 48 (64) to upgrade Normal 192 (256) to upgrade Greater
Analysis: The amount of needed Shards is slightly reduced for Greater, majorly for Perfect. Beyond Lesser you only need a small fraction of matching Shards compared to the current system, rest can be done with non-matching Shards or even Enchants. ADs (accumulative) needed for upgrade (doesn't include prices for Shards/Enchantments assuming you farm all of them):
1.335 (1.335) for a R5
- ([2.67x LMark 1.335]) 31.000 AD (32.335) for a R6
- ([1x Mark 25.000 + 1.50 PWards 6.000]) 59.320 AD (91.655) for a R7
- ([2x Mark 50.000 + 2.33 PWards 9.320]) 203.655 AD (295.310) for a R8
- ([1x GMark 100.000 + 3.00 PWards 12.000] + Catalyst R7 91.655) 511.310 AD (806.620) for a R9
- ([2x GMark 200.000 + 4.00 PWards 16.000] + Catalyst R8 295.310) 1.042.620 AD (1.849.240) for a R10
- ([2x GMark 200.000 + 9.00 PWards 36.000] + Catalyst R9 806.620)
0 (0) for a R5 6.000 AD (6.000) for a R6
- ([1.50 PWards 6.000]) 9.320 AD (33.320) for a R7
- ([2.33 PWards 9.320]) 12.000 AD (145.280) for a R8
- ([3.00 PWards 12.000]) 16.000 AD (597.120) for a R9
- ([4.00 PWards 16.000]) 36.000 AD (2.424.480) for a R10
- ([9.00 PWards 36.000])
Note: This calculation assumes that you use PWards starting with R6s, which is not always the best option (especially for Silverys)
Analysis: Building your Enchantments from scratch gets more expensive for R5-R9 (+1.335 AD, +438%, +175%, +103%, +35%) and R10 gets cheaper (-24%). If you don't want to spend a single AD on you Enchantments you can still do so, now you have to invest a little more effort to grind the Marks instead of "just" invoking and get PWards off Coffers.
105.000 (105.000) for a Lesser
- ([1.00x CWard 105.000]) 310.000 (415.000) for a Normal
- ([1x GMark 100.000 + 1.00 CWard 105.000] + Catalyst Lesser 105.000) 720.000 (1.135.000) for a Greater
- ([2x GMark 200.000 + 1.00 CWard 105.000] + Catalyst Normal 415.000) 1.440.000 (2.575.000) for a Perfect
- ([2x GMark 200.000 + 1.00 CWard 105.000] + Catalyst Greater 1.135.000)
105.000 (105.000) for a Lesser
- ([1.00x CWard 105.000]) 105.000 (525.000) for a Normal
- ([1.00 CWard 105.000]) 105.000 (2.205.000) for a Greater
- ([1.00 CWard 105.000]) 105.000 (8.925.000) for a Perfect
- ([1.00 CWard 105.000])
Analysis: Greater/Perfect get much cheaper, because the amount of needed CWards is majorly reduced: Lesser (+/-0%) - Normal (-21%)) - Greater (-49%) - Perfect (-71%). If you don't want to spend a single AD on you Enchantments you can still do so, now you have to invest a little more effort to grind the Marks instead of "just" invoking and get CWards off Coffers. Accumulative material needed for upgrade:
Analysis: 606 PWards is a ton from Coffers for a R10, but since the drop rate of new Marks is totally up in the air it's really difficult to predict what is harder to aquire. I'd tend to say the time to grind the needed materials will go down: Coffers are limited to one per char per week, but you can farm as long as you want to. That said: Guys with limited time could always just invest a few minutes per day for praying and still "progress" in terms of their Enchantments. That's impossible under the new system.
Analysis: Same as above. 85 CWards need >400 Coffers or 40 weeks with 10 chars. That was way too much and given reasonable drop rates the new system should speed up the process significantly. What does it mean? Armor and Weapon Enchantments get a nice boost both in speed and expenses. If you've build your Greater/Perfect from scratch using ADs you should get excited. Not only will the material costs go down significantly, you can also use much cheaper Shards to build your Vorpal i.e. People who preferred not to spend a single dime in the process will still benefit from a speed upgrade, but have to pay a mandatory cost now. Overall this absolutely benefits the players. You can bark about the mandatory costs, but I don't think there is a single Perfect which has been solely created through praying and free CWards.
The new system also is an improvement for normal Enchantments/Runestones. You have to gather less Enchantments and much less matching Enchantments, but will have to invest some of that time in grinding Marks instead. Since the show-stopper has been the enormous amount of needed Enchantments one could speculate that the new system should speed up the whole process. The material expenses rise for all those building their Enchantments from scratch, but at higher levels that should be compensated by the lower amount of needed Enchantments as well.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Astral Diamonds are no longer required to upgrade items.
. . . . . Thank you so much for listening. I look forward to testing out the rest of the changes as well. I've also been asked by a couple players that do not use the forums much to express their thanks as well for listening to the players.
Comments
And it's not really much more expensive either. As long as catalysts sell for a decent price on AH or aren't too hard to farm, the price point overall will be close or lower.
One of the reasons I keep hammering on value, is that if you pay attention, it is many times cheaper to sell your materials to go from rank 4 to whatever rank on the AH and simply buy rank you wanted. I have seen rank 7 darks go for 160-170K AD on Ah and if you sold the 74-75 rank 4s and the 8.3333 P. Wards you needed, you could sell all of that for 183K or more. With the AH cut, they come out to the same price approximately. Considering I can sell more things from farming than I can farm rank 4 darks, that it would take me 2 weeks to get 8+ P. Wards from invocation from 6 characters, it is much mroe efficient for me to farm enchants, sell the ones I do not need and when I have enough AD to cover the cost difference between how many rank 4 darks I have and the rank 7 I want, I buy the rest of the materials.
Now that I have all rank 7s on my 2 primary characters, I would much rather upgrade my weapon and armor enchants while I wait for module 2, because then I only have to worry about going form rank 7 to 8 to replace my 7s, instead of from 4 to 8 all over again. Even with the AD cost and the catalyst cost, it will cost me less overall to upgrade in that manner.
So there you go.
Edit:
Example time
Currently going from rank 7 slotted enchants to 8 will cost me:
298.7 matching rank 4s
37.3 P. Wards
or
224 matching rank 4s
29 P. Wards
103K AD to unslot my rank 7 (pointless for any enchant that is not an Azure, Radiant, or Dark)
Under new system to upgrade from rank 7 to 8
192 Matching Rank 4s (128 for refinement + 64 for rank 7 matching for catalyst) or 1 matching + 382 non-matching ranks 4s.
4 P. Wards
1 Epic Catalyst (100K AD or probably a lot less less from AH or farm it, possibly from a daily solo dungeon in new area)
3 Rare Catalysts (25K AD each or less from AH, possibly farm)
The only real question is catalysts in this scenario, and we probably won;t really know until the dust settles on the economy or each way to farm them is clearly understood.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Because the armor and weapon enchantment upgrades will use far fewer resources than under the current system, it really makes sense right now to fuse yourself a bunch of lessers and then wait to improve them... something I am personally kicking myself over.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
. . . . .Just because one may have the AD to blow around or wishes to trade, buy or sell for their enchantments, that doesn't mean we all should have to. Which, this is what this new system will be doing. Forcing everyone to play the AD grind game to increase the efficiency of their characters. Before, I could just play the game itself, have fun and not worry about the stupid Astral Diamond cash cow mechanics of the game to increase my character's stats. Now, in this new system, raw power is now even more prevalently available for RTM transactions. Actually, I even dare say it seems encouraged.
. . . . . The marketing of this game is horrendous now and this new system just proves it. The In-Game Economy should never have been mixed with RTM. The Zen Shop should have been its own from the get-go. Everything that costs ADs in the game should instead cost in-game coins (gold/silver/copper) and the Zen market left to its own accord as Cash Only purchases.
. . . . . This game is so close to no longer even having a resemblance of a casual-friendly game. It's turning into one huge, repetitive, grind-fest. This new refinement system just compounds that greater.
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I am actually only upgrading to perfect bronzewood since I am not sure they will be around anymore after new module, and since they are at normal already, they are cheap to upgrade right now.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
It will still bring an added cost to where I previously had none.
I personally am very active, but have to adjust my playstyle a lot to cover the new mandatory expenses. I'll probably start running CN more frequently or generally grind for AD revenue over gear that my chars actually need. I gladly will have build up enough R7s to equip a double digit amount of new chars by the time Shadowmantle hits live, so I won't have to deal with the new refinement system in an area where it hurts the most, but instead can benefit from lowered costs of R8+.
There was a poll on the board how much ADs players generate and nearly 50% make less than 24k. I would say the actual amount is much higher, because more active players also tend to contribute on message boards. These players need roughly a week to gather the ADs for one R7, so 9 weeks to fully enchant a char. That's simply too much. As said: With Fey Blessing Enchantments, you should be able to grind the needed enchants in a fraction of that time now. That's quite a change in an area that affects the majority of players.
So we are losing the option to build up from R6 (cheap and easy in both systems) to R10 without more fully engaging the game's content (selling drops on the AH, doing regular dailies, salvaging, using cash, etc). To me it does not make sense that some players' aversion, seemingly philosophical, to certain aspects of the game should prevent the implementation of a system that, in ways well documented in this thread, promises to improve the ease of upgrading enchants (and moving them around in gear) for those of us who do more fully engage the game's content. I look forward to the new system, and to my soon-to-be-free bag space.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
So people should use all their generated AD simply for upgrading enchantments? You do know there are a lot more uses for AD already currently in the game right?
I thought we weren't participating in the AH? Or the zen store? You could buy and upgrade gear, in which case you aren't even worrying about enchants. With the new system you can at least use those enchants on your current gear instead of hoarding them for once your gear is upgraded. What else are we buying? 2 packs of cheap dye maybe? 100K AD isn't even enough for one pack of black dye, yet will cover your costs to go to rank 7 on 3 enchants.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
first, thank you for your posts! I enjoyed reading them all and IMHO they are very well written and argumentative well done. I'm quite sure that you fully understand the logic behind the arguments of the "yay" sayers, therefore I'll not insult your intelligence and continue arguing about cost or value.
Yes, I do acknowledge the reasoning of the "nay" sayers. I just have a different view on it, but I see the logic behind it. Let me try to take another vantage point...
I cost you time, did it not? Just curious to know.
I do value my time above all else (and on a sidenote: no, I don't get enough enchantments/runestones during dungeon runs and I run a lot). Therefore I do not farm enchantments--as I don't consider my time "free". I believe that is the main difference behind the "yay" and "nay" sayers.
But, as some of the "yay" sayers put it, you should be able to farm the required enchantments faster, as in the current system. Couldn't you use that freed time to do an (additional) Daily in order to get the AD required for the upgrade?
31k is without the Catalysts but to truly compare the systems from R5-R7 you have to include the expenses for them as well, because the needed amount of R4s is about the same. If not the ADs, you have to at least invest more time grinding the Catalysts, which shouldn't be ignored.
You might just get enough material from running dungeons, but that's not a given for me. So I'd rather calculate with 122k per R7 at this point.
I win.
Kidding: Great change.
Not speaking for everyone. But for myself, no, It didn't.
In nearly all cases, my earned enchantments were simply a bonus. A byproduct of my normal playing. Not so much an investment of time. But more like earned interest by simply having an account. I played how I wanted, and did the things I wanted to accomplish, and the enchantments simply came as a result of that. In the same way ive earned gold, but never had to farm for it.
So no, there was no real time involved earning them. I would of done the same things weather I earned enchantments from it or not. Any more then watching interest build from a larger investment. The investment is where the time is focused, the interest is the bonus. However, if you tried to rationalize taking someones interest away, simply because its a minor extra. Or locking it behind some form of use fee. I expect you would find it hard to get folks to warm up to that idea.
Nice Decision Dev :cool:
Admittedly I'm more confused now. Has something been changed or did I miss something? Tried the refining again today and wanted to test some weapon / armor enchantments. First of all - strangely enough - some, but not all weapon/armour enchants didn't need any refinement by filling up the refinement slots with other enchantments - their refinement "bar" was already "full" and I don't have the slightest idea why as I had just freshly copied that char to Preview.
Second - they didn't need any of the new catalysts either - instead the catalysts were enchants of the same sort. So all I needed was a ward (as before).
Has this been this way all the time or was it just recently changed? - and -
Why were some- but not all - weapon /armour enchants' refinement "bars" already "filled up"? Is this a bug?
I also tried refinement with a "normal" enchantment - Level 5 to 6, it used up three other enchants of the same kind for refining, plus a catalyst (25 k) and 5k AD. I don't count the ward as this would have been needed in the old system as well. But - this definitely makes the new system more expensive as with the old system I only needed 4 enchants plus ward.
Last - NOT least - if this system goes live in spite of all the negative feedback posted here - it will definitely need a LOT of explanation, as it is very / too complicated.
PS: I tested this before any new patch was downloaded.
We win! Now lets see if we can reduce the variety of catalyst types from four or so to one as well as get them to drop in Skirmish chests.
Great Job Dev :cool:
Amount of matching R4s (accumulative) consumed in refining process:
4 (4) for a R4 (1 base, 3 for the RPs)
12 (16) for a R5
48 (64) for a R6
192 (256) for a R7 (128 to refine the R7 itself and 64 R4s for the R7 Catalyst)
640 (896) for a R8 (384 to refine the R8 itself and 256 R4s for the R8 Catalyst)
2048 (2944) for a R9 (1152 to refine the R9 itself and 896 R4s for the R9 Catalyst)
Analysis: The amount of enchants is reduced, slightly for R5-R8, majorly for R9/R10. The ability to use non-matching enchants will speed up the process additionally.
Amount of matching Shards (accumulative) consumed in refining/upgrading process:
4 (4) for a Shard (1 base, 3 for the RPs)
12 (16) for a Lesser (8 to refine the Lesser itself and one 4 Shards for the Lesser Catalyst)
40 (56) for a Normal (24 to refine the Normal itself and 16 Shards for the Normal Catalyst)
128 (184) for a Greater (72 to refine the Greater itself and 56 Shards for the Greater Catalysts)
Note: The minimum amount of matching Shards needed is 4 (Lesser), 8 (Normal), 16 (Greater), 32 (Perfect).
Analysis: The amount of needed Shards is slightly reduced for Greater, majorly for Perfect. Beyond Lesser you only need a small fraction of matching Shards compared to the current system, rest can be done with non-matching Shards or even Enchants.
ADs (accumulative) needed for upgrade (doesn't include prices for Shards/Enchantments assuming you farm all of them):
1.335 (1.335) for a R5
- ([2.67x LMark 1.335])
31.000 AD (32.335) for a R6
- ([1x Mark 25.000 + 1.50 PWards 6.000])
59.320 AD (91.655) for a R7
- ([2x Mark 50.000 + 2.33 PWards 9.320])
203.655 AD (295.310) for a R8
- ([1x GMark 100.000 + 3.00 PWards 12.000] + Catalyst R7 91.655)
511.310 AD (806.620) for a R9
- ([2x GMark 200.000 + 4.00 PWards 16.000] + Catalyst R8 295.310)
1.042.620 AD (1.849.240) for a R10
- ([2x GMark 200.000 + 9.00 PWards 36.000] + Catalyst R9 806.620)
Analysis: Building your Enchantments from scratch gets more expensive for R5-R9 (+1.335 AD, +438%, +175%, +103%, +35%) and R10 gets cheaper (-24%). If you don't want to spend a single AD on you Enchantments you can still do so, now you have to invest a little more effort to grind the Marks instead of "just" invoking and get PWards off Coffers.
105.000 (105.000) for a Lesser
- ([1.00x CWard 105.000])
310.000 (415.000) for a Normal
- ([1x GMark 100.000 + 1.00 CWard 105.000] + Catalyst Lesser 105.000)
720.000 (1.135.000) for a Greater
- ([2x GMark 200.000 + 1.00 CWard 105.000] + Catalyst Normal 415.000)
1.440.000 (2.575.000) for a Perfect
- ([2x GMark 200.000 + 1.00 CWard 105.000] + Catalyst Greater 1.135.000)
Analysis: Greater/Perfect get much cheaper, because the amount of needed CWards is majorly reduced: Lesser (+/-0%) - Normal (-21%)) - Greater (-49%) - Perfect (-71%). If you don't want to spend a single AD on you Enchantments you can still do so, now you have to invest a little more effort to grind the Marks instead of "just" invoking and get CWards off Coffers.
Accumulative material needed for upgrade:
R5 (2.67 LMarks - 0.00 Marks - 0.00 GMarks - 0.00 PWards - 0.00 CWards)
R6 (2.67 LMarks - 1.00 Marks - 0.00 GMarks - 1.50 PWards - 0.00 CWards)
R7 (2.67 LMarks - 3.00 Marks - 0.00 GMarks - 3.83 PWards - 0.00 CWards)
R8 (5.34 LMarks - 6.00 Marks - 1.00 GMarks - 7.66 PWards - 0.00 CWards)
R9 (10.68 LMarks - 12.00 Marks - 4.00 GMarks - 19.32 PWards - 0.00 CWards)
R10 (21.32 LMarks - 24.00 Marks - 10.00 GMarks - 47.64 PWards - 0.00 CWards)
Analysis: 606 PWards is a ton from Coffers for a R10, but since the drop rate of new Marks is totally up in the air it's really difficult to predict what is harder to aquire. I'd tend to say the time to grind the needed materials will go down: Coffers are limited to one per char per week, but you can farm as long as you want to. That said: Guys with limited time could always just invest a few minutes per day for praying and still "progress" in terms of their Enchantments. That's impossible under the new system.
Lesser (0.00 LMarks - 0.00 Marks - 0.00 GMarks - 0.00 PWards - 1.00 CWards)
Normal (0.00 LMarks - 0.00 Marks - 1.00 GMarks - 0.00 PWards - 3.00 CWards)
Greater (0.00 LMarks - 0.00 Marks - 4.00 GMarks - 0.00 PWards - 7.00 CWards)
Perfect (0.00 LMarks - 0.00 Marks - 10.00 GMarks - 0.00 PWards - 15.00 CWards)
Analysis: Same as above. 85 CWards need >400 Coffers or 40 weeks with 10 chars. That was way too much and given reasonable drop rates the new system should speed up the process significantly.
What does it mean? Armor and Weapon Enchantments get a nice boost both in speed and expenses. If you've build your Greater/Perfect from scratch using ADs you should get excited. Not only will the material costs go down significantly, you can also use much cheaper Shards to build your Vorpal i.e. People who preferred not to spend a single dime in the process will still benefit from a speed upgrade, but have to pay a mandatory cost now. Overall this absolutely benefits the players. You can bark about the mandatory costs, but I don't think there is a single Perfect which has been solely created through praying and free CWards.
The new system also is an improvement for normal Enchantments/Runestones. You have to gather less Enchantments and much less matching Enchantments, but will have to invest some of that time in grinding Marks instead. Since the show-stopper has been the enormous amount of needed Enchantments one could speculate that the new system should speed up the whole process. The material expenses rise for all those building their Enchantments from scratch, but at higher levels that should be compensated by the lower amount of needed Enchantments as well.
. . . . . Thank you so much for listening. I look forward to testing out the rest of the changes as well. I've also been asked by a couple players that do not use the forums much to express their thanks as well for listening to the players.
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