. . . . . Funny because according to my math, spending 0 Zen and 0 AD in this system in its current form is still spending nothing. While in the new forum, I am mandated that I must spend something no matter what. So yes, according my math, very basic math, I will be spending millions more than I have been previously. Maybe you should take more things into account than trying to attack another person or persons with idiotic statements.
Totally agree here. There are quite a few people who NEVER buy coalescent wards or preservation wards. You can win them weekly for free with Celestial Synergy. This new system now costs AD where before it didn't have to at all.
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For people that already spend ADs on Coalwards/enchants and whatnot to speed up the process, the new system gets cheaper. True. But for 90% of the players who, like me, probably never spend one single AD on enchanting, it get much more expensive.
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misterzacMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 29Arc User
edited November 2013
Why all this whining? This new system gonna make enchantments alot cheaper overall. I like it!
Have in mind that with this current system you need 64 c.wards to make a perfect enchantment and the cost for that only is around 7kk AD.
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rapticorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,078Arc User
Why all this whining? This new system gonna make enchantments alot cheaper overall. I like it!
Have in mind that with this current system you need 64 c.wards to make a perfect enchantment and the cost for that only is around 7kk AD.
Because while there is savings in the those types of enchants the ranked enchants will cost considerably more with the exception of rank 10s. That's not even considering the fact that enchant demand will go up and prices with it because of artifacts/
so the cost for the catalyst is out
blue - 25k
purple - 100k
so a dark rank 5 upgrade to rank 6
will need 10 rank 4 to feed it = 1800 x 10 = 18000 + 25000(catalyst) + 5000(ad upgrade cost) = 48000 + green wards
how is that ANY CHEAPER? also consider the large amount of lower rank enchantment is require for everyone, the price for rank 4 and lower will prolly go high which pushing the final cost even higher
Also am i playing a video game or am i doing a MATH TEST?
how is this in any way "enjoyable" sound to you guys? developer seriously?
For people that already spend ADs on Coalwards/enchants and whatnot to speed up the process, the new system gets cheaper. True. But for 90% of the players who, like me, probably never spend one single AD on enchanting, it get much more expensive.
Thats true if we count AD as 'not free' and rank 4 enchants as somehow 'free'. But thats simply not true: rank 4 enchants no more 'free' than AD (unless u have a hundred of bots farming that rank 4 non-stop 24/7). Check prices at AH: if rank 4 enchants were free they would be selling close to zero, and they r not. And if u tell that someone can farm that rank 4's - well someone can farm AD too. And if u tell that farming AD is 'hard' and long - well farming hundreds/thousands dark enchants is also not quite easy and fast (unless u have farming bots).
Thats true if we count AD as 'not free' and rank 4 enchants as somehow 'free'. But thats simply not true: rank 4 enchants no more 'free' than AD (unless u have a hundred of bots farming that rank 4 non-stop 24/7). Check prices at AH: if rank 4 enchants were free they would be selling close to zero, and they r not. And if u tell that someone can farm that rank 4's - well someone can farm AD too. And if u tell that farming AD is 'hard' and long - well farming hundreds/thousands dark enchants is also not quite easy and fast (unless u have farming bots).
I've got a Lv60 CW with R5/R6 Enchantments in her gear, none of which were bought through the AH and none of which were fused with the aid of any wards or coals. How exactly are these Enchantments not free?
Were I to attempt to raise a new Ranger character to Lv60 with a fresh set of Enchantments under the new refinement system could I do that for free exactly as I did for my CW? Of course not! Therefore the complaints.
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I have spent some real money on this game, but never the super high amount other people have because I was always afraid of this. I think anyone that has dropped any money on this game should be foaming at the mouth right now over this "improvement".
I stopped spending real money on this after the BoP mistake. I had a feeling watching the changes they were making up until then that it wasn't going to be the last time they screwed over the player. I'm glad I foresaw that and closed my wallet. It would take a whole lot for these companies to earn back any of my dollars.
I've got a Lv60 CW with R5/R6 Enchantments in her gear, none of which were bought through the AH and none of which were fused with the aid of any wards or coals. How exactly are these Enchantments not free?
Were I to attempt to raise a new Ranger character to Lv60 with a fresh set of Enchantments under the new refinement system could I do that for free exactly as I did for my CW? Of course not! Therefore the complaints.
well while levelling noone put enchants higher than 4 lvl anyway. when u r at 60 lvl - again, usually noone put enchants higher than 5 lvl, unless he/she has a good gear at that moment (unslotting is pretty expensive and noone unslot anything less than lvl 7). So when ur ranger under new system got lvl 60, u could easily put lvl 5 enchants at that moment (catalists r 2 lesser marks of potency which cost 1000 Ad at most and could be found at usual skill nodes) spending close to zero AD - and feeling not worse than under old system.
As for lvl 6 - when u got ur good gear, u almost definitely also got that 225k AD (25*9) for levelling up 5's to 6's, and that in case u found zero Marks of potency at dungeon's skill nodes or bosses while u r getting ur gear (i accept though that 25k ad ceiling for lvl 6 looks a bit high, 15-20k would be better).
lvl 7 looks like lvl 6, and starting from lvl 8 new system is definitely cheaper
And yep, as somebody noticed earlier, the necessity to have a 2d high rank enchant levelling as 'catalist' is inconvinient, much better would be just double necessary refinement points and add 1-2 marks of potency to include that 'catalist' enchantment cost into levelling enchantment and free that slots. Thats the only serious inconvinience imo.
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
. . . . . Funny because according to my math, spending 0 Zen and 0 AD in this system in its current form is still spending nothing. While in the new forum, I am mandated that I must spend something no matter what. So yes, according my math, very basic math, I will be spending millions more than I have been previously.
If you use an enchantment, you use up the value of the enchantment in Astral Diamonds--because you could have sold said enchantment in the Auction House. The TCO (Total Cost of Ownership)--aka the actual value of the enchantments--in the new system will be lower for higher ranks (Greater Weapon/Armor Enchantments and Rank 7 and higher normal enchantments).
You're right, that you cannot avoid the direct Astral Diamond cost of the upgrades (you can farm the required "Mark of Potency" as well as the "Wards"). But, if you would incline to start selling stuff on the Auction House--if you haven't done that before--, you could get the required Astral Diamonds needed for the upgrade, from excess material you got through drops ("Mark of Potency", "Wards" and maybe enchantments). And you would need a lot less of those ("Wards" and enchantments) as you would in the current system.
If you use an enchantment, you use up the value of the enchantment in Astral Diamonds--because you could have sold said enchantment in the Auction House. The TCO (Total Cost of Ownership)--aka the actual value of the enchantments--in the new system will be lower for higher ranks (Greater Weapon/Armor Enchantments and Rank 7 and higher normal enchantments).
You're right, that you cannot avoid the direct Astral Diamond cost of the upgrades (you can farm the required "Mark of Potency" as well as the "Wards"). But, if you would incline to start selling stuff on the Auction House--if you haven't done that before--, you could get the required Astral Diamonds needed for the upgrade, from excess material you got through drops ("Mark of Potency", "Wards" and maybe enchantments). And you would need a lot less of those ("Wards" and enchantments) as you would in the current system.
Well said. I was skeptical of the new system. After playing around with it, I am starting to like it. Been trying to explain the reduced cost to some friends but from now on I am using your TCO phrase.
That said, devs need to put out a video explain the new system and showing how it will reduce the TCO significantly. It would help out with confusion. One of the mods had some good ideas as well. Get rid of the AD cost for the lower end enchantments.
I could farm a finite amount of enchants and fuse them using wards.Prices on Runestones/Enchants where fairly even with 2 exceptions arcane and training runestones they could have easily just removed them. Rank 7 was a rly easy get cost was 75 enchants(free 1h farm) and 10 green wards (100zen= 32-40k ad). Since i cant go test server i want to know where can i get the Marks and Catalysts?. Cause if i have to buy them from zen shop that means an increase in price and the cheaper thing no longer stands. If i have to farm Dungeons to make them then the time require will also increase so again i feel like a bad trade. So if i cant make a rank 7 per hour with a cost of 40k AD then for me the new system is a rly bad thing.
I actually like the system, but im the kind of player who would spend some ad to speed things up as i prefer to farm equipment for ad sales rather than mindless skill node farming, which i also do but to a lesser extent.
I got a r7 to r8 to refinement point an its r6 to r7 just using the loads of enchants/runes i had laying around that i dont even need, now I just need the mark. Also got my vopral to greater refining point... something i dont think i would be able to do with the previous system. This new system just made any enchant/rune u get valuable and freed all that bag space and also no more wasted enchants due to breakage.
Also shards, they are so valuable now as they give a good deal of rp and i usually just stacked the few i actually might convert into enchants. now just stack them all in bank and use them for refinement ( u can use them on anything). Those dark fey keys = 1 shard now so im gona be spending those 20 keys i got + the 2 i can get a day ( just one alt) so by the time module 2 is released i will probably have enough shards to push my vorpal into greater with just that + all the others i get from running dungeons for more enchant upgrading.
the gretaer mark is obviously whats going to be holding us back, but we will see how hard they actually are to get but at worst theyre at the price of coals, and u need many less.
So right now knowing how the system works, id say get ready for it start stacking shards enchants and runes and dont fuse them unless ur getting a direct upgrade to use now or setting a base for the future upgrading, like getting some r6s-7s of the type u want to use to push up ur current enchants.
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
[...] Rank 7 was a rly easy get cost was 75 enchants(free 1h farm) and 10 green wards (100zen= 32-40k ad). [...] So if i cant make a rank 7 per hour with a cost of 40k AD then for me the new system is a rly bad thing.
The question is not easily answered, because in the current system you are talking about using 75 (I guess you were talking about rank 4 ) enchantments of the same type. I've no clue where you can farm that many rank 4 enchantments of the same type in one hour!? But nevertheless, in order to create 1 rank 7 enchantment you would need _1_ rank 4 (of the type you want to upgrade to rank 7), plus additionally 126 enchantments of _any_ type (would be less if you find enchantment of the same type). Therefore in regards to time farming: I would guess that you can achieve the required amount of 126 enchantments _or_ runestones in less time than you need to find 75 rank 4 enchantments of the same type!
In regards to astral diamonds used: you would need a flat fee of 31,000 ADs to make the upgrades from rank 4 to rank 7, additionally to the amount of preservation wards you need to make _3_ upgrades (you had 21 fusing steps before!) and the Marks of Potencies. You need to decide for yourself how you value those things.
[...] i want to know where can i get the Marks and Catalysts? [...]
You would need 2 green and 3 blue "Marks of Potency". IIRC, the greens have a chance to drop in skill nodes, but I do not remember where the blues are dropping (the epic ones drop only from epic Dungeon Bosses, that I do remember).
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited November 2013
It'd be nice to see the duplicate weapon/armor enchant removed from the equation. Instead just adjust the costs so that when you have a single weapon or armor enchant, you can just keep adding to it and ultimately refine it to the highest level of the course of time.
Right now, it still gets really confusing on exactly what you need to rank up enchantments. For example, on a Vorpal enchantment, no only do you need to get the correct amount of RP, the right Catalysts and the Ward, you also need ANOTHER Vorpal enchantment of the same level as ANOTHER catalyst, which I think greatly adds to the confusion over exactly what people need to continue to rank up their weapon and/or armor enchantments. It just seems like you've kept that needlessly complex part of the equation, when it seems like your overall goal is to simplify stuff.
Also, on a side note, I'd like to remind a lot of people belly-aching about the AD cost being mandatory now that AD are part of the actual game. You have tons of ways to earn AD through the course of normal playing, and if you'd just think of AD as another game currency, like gold, seals or glory, I don't really see what the big deal is.
Like another poster said above, all those runes and enchants you're picking up are basically little buckets of AD if you turn around and sell them on the AH. Just because you're dumping them back into creating enchants and not converting them into AD doesn't mean what you're doing doesn't have an AD cost associated with it.
For example, if you had 4 enchantments worth 5k AD each, and you fuse them together, the cost of that enchant was essentially the 20k AD you could've made selling those on the AH. So either way, you're technically "spending" AD to rank up your enchantments. The bonus to this new system is that ALL enchants are valuable, because they can ALL be used as RP points, so you don't need to collect a ton of a very specific enchant to continue building out your enchants. Any enchant, any shard, any rune will do, in addition to the numerous other RP items they've added to the game.
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xwanguuMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 22Arc User
Feedback: General :complexity The actual system is relatively easy to understand : you can merge 4 enchant in 1 of a higher quality
The new system is as much complex as many ask for a video explaining it, that's a bad point for me
Feedback: General :speed to use actual : double click then click OK, try not to forget the ward if you want to use one, actually reasonably fast to use
The new one is quite the nightmare, you have to select the enchant, select the other enchants to refine it, be sure to have the right catalyst, don't forget the ward, and then refine then upgrade.
With the old one once the enchant window was open you would just have to double clic to transform your enchant, now you've got to mouse click like mad on the screen just to make one upgrade
Feedback: General :space needed in inventory Nearly two or three time the one needed before, the basic enchant, the refine enchant (not stackable) and the catalyst
Feedback: General :cost the actual one need no AD if you wish to upgrade your enchant, just farm them and try to upgrade.
In the new one it is mandatory, and you'll have to add the price of the catalyst
Feedback: General The actual system is not the best, but it works and is relatively easy and fast to use. The only drawback is the difficulty to make high end enchant or weapon/armor enchant. That could easily be resolved by lowering all AD/zen cost related to enchant, many other posts before mine have great suggestions on this subject.
The new system doesn't resolve any problems the actual one has, it just add complexity, time and space to use it. It just make it really worse to use.
My thoughts, if this system takes place as is, I'll just transform as much enchant as I can before the change. And I won't do any other enchant with the new system at all.
You've done a great job so far on shadowmantle, but the new refining system is a total <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
And it might ruin all the game because refinement is nearly mandatory if you want to do the end game dungeons/PVP
aka the actual value of the enchantments--in the new system will be lower for higher ranks (Greater Weapon/Armor Enchantments and Rank 7 and higher normal enchantments).
I'm not sure how you are calculating the normal enchants. A rank 7 in the current system requires 64 rank 4's to make. In new it requires a rank 4 to start. 3 more to get it to rank 5 (4). 12 more to get to 6 (16). 48 more to get to 7 (64). Which is exactly the same amount. But you need to add 31K in upgrade fees plus catalyst fees. But you do get to save a little on preservation wards.
Rank 9's and 10's have a reduced number of enchants need but 9 isn't reduced enough to offset all the fees.
the new system has an advantage over the old system in that i could keep on hand a number of armor/weapon enchants and swap them out at my leisure since the cost to remove enchants is dirt cheap. this should be restricted in pvp, however.
another advantage is if you have multiple armor sets like i do, you just need to level up one set of enchantments and you can swap them out into whatever set you're using. or have specific enchants on hand that you're refining. every time you get an enchant drop, just feed it into whatever you're leveling up. no more enchants taking over your inventory slots.
will slotted runestones have the same 'refine...' option? right now, that is not available... also when you right-click on any runestone in your inventory, you don't have the option to 'refine...' - but you can double click it and the refinement window comes up.
also, slotted runestones with refinement points... the refinement points are not showing up in the tooltip.
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
Sorry, to confirm its 3,875,000 AD to make a perfect from matching shards?
Whats the cost if we use non matching shards?
My calculation came up with around 3.8 million ADs for a Perfect Weapon/Armor enchantment, depending on the cost of the shards. My calculation is based solely on non-matching shards (I prefer to consider worst-case-scenarios )
I'm not sure how you are calculating the normal enchants. A rank 7 in the current system requires 64 rank 4's to make. In new it requires a rank 4 to start. 3 more to get it to rank 5 (4). 12 more to get to 6 (16). 48 more to get to 7 (64). Which is exactly the same amount. But you need to add 31K in upgrade fees plus catalyst fees. But you do get to save a little on preservation wards.
A couple of things to note first:
the old/current fusing system, required _21_ "upgrades"/fusings, with 21 possibilities of failure to go from rank 4 to rank 7!
the new refinement system, requires just _3_ "upgrades"
the old/current fusing system, required you to use exactly the _same_ enchantment to upgrade (matching)
with the new refinement system, you can use _any_ enchantment, runestone, shard and even new grey RP value items to use for the upgrade process (non-matching)
with the new refinement system, you can use _any_rank_ item for refinement points (only recommended from rank 1 to rank 4!)
If you would use non-matching shards, you would need 126 rank 4 enchantments; if you would use matching shards, you would need 63 to upgrade your one rank 4 to rank 7.
So, if you look on the amount of stuff you need to get to a rank 7 it looks like it is going to be more expensive (because of the additional catalyst and AD fee usage), but as I wrote above, you can use any and all type of enchantments, etc. There are two type of costs involved in gaining those enchantments: either you buy in the Auction House for AD, or you spend time farming the enchantments. In both cases the value (AD or time) you need to invest will go down, because
it would take a lot more time to gather up 64 matching enchantments, as it would take to gather 126 of any type (you also can use rank 1 to rank 3 directly in the refinement process), and
(currently) the prices of enchantments and runestones differs widely, therefore you could use lower prices runestones for the upgrade process, instead of the more expensive Azure or Dark ones.
Therefore, IMHO, even those who used to farm their enchantments should benefit from the new system--depending on the drop-rate of the "Mark of Potencies".
Example:
I did a calculation of the upgrade of a Dark enchantment from rank 4 to 7 in the old and the new system. I used the following price values for it:
Dark enchantment rank 4: 1,950 ADs
Dark enchantment rank 5: 7,800 ADs
Preservation ward: 3,500 ADs (you can get those with celestial coins)
Lesser Mark of Potency: 500 ADs (you can get those from skill nodes)
Mark of Potency: 25,000 ADs (forgot where you can get those)
I made the following assumptions:
price per RP is 1 AD (which means, that I consider that you are able to get non-matching rank 4 enchantment or runestone for around 135 ADs--which you actually can, they even go below that value sometimes)
in both systems the upgrade/fusing step from 4 to 5 consumes 1 preservation ward, from 5 to 6 and from 6 to 7 consumes 3 preservation wards (per step: leading to a total usage of 7 preservation wards in the new system and 31 in the old system)
Based on the above mentioned values and assumptions I calculated a TOC (total cost of ownership) for
the Dark enchantment rank 7 in the old system of 177,300 ADs, compared to
the Dark enchantment rank 7 in the new system of 150,460 ADs
That is not much difference and only works, if you consider time-spent valuable and not free, as well as you actually sell stuff on the Auction House.
The difference get's higher starting at rank 8 (495,980 ADs compared to 719,700 ADs) up to rank 10 (3.4mio ADs compared to 11.6mio ADs).
So in conclusion: with the new system the enchantments starting at Rank 8 (or at "Normal" Weapon/Armor enchantments) get cheaper.
The question is not easily answered, because in the current system you are talking about using 75 (I guess you were talking about rank 4 ) enchantments of the same type. I've no clue where you can farm that many rank 4 enchantments of the same type in one hour!? But nevertheless, in order to create 1 rank 7 enchantment you would need _1_ rank 4 (of the type you want to upgrade to rank 7), plus additionally 126 enchantments of _any_ type (would be less if you find enchantment of the same type). Therefore in regards to time farming: I would guess that you can achieve the required amount of 126 enchantments _or_ runestones in less time than you need to find 75 rank 4 enchantments of the same type!
In regards to astral diamonds used: you would need a flat fee of 31,000 ADs to make the upgrades from rank 4 to rank 7, additionally to the amount of preservation wards you need to make _3_ upgrades (you had 21 fusing steps before!) and the Marks of Potencies. You need to decide for yourself how you value those things.
You would need 2 green and 3 blue "Marks of Potency". IIRC, the greens have a chance to drop in skill nodes, but I do not remember where the blues are dropping (the epic ones drop only from epic Dungeon Bosses, that I do remember).
Just for the giggles, and on a sidenote:
If your time is free, just send me your cv and you can work for me for free! *scnr* :cool:
Glad I can make people smile U can farm 75 enchants in 1 hour, u;ll have 1 rank 7 of each in 4 hours. Are u sure that your numbers are correct? 126 enchants are way more + marks. 75 is the number of rank4 required to make 16 rank5 what u can fuse using wards into a rank7. Is cheaper to do it like that
Regarding your other post with perfects... I can tell u that 3.9 mil is a sum based on assumptions. I am pretty sure that the real price will be double .
price per RP is 1 AD (which means, that I consider that you are able to get non-matching rank 4 enchantment or runestone for around 135 ADs--which you actually can, they even go below that value sometimes)
The problem with this assumption is the price of the non-matching enchants are going to go up as demand for them sky rockets. Any non-matching enchant will go up in price to be half of what a dark is.
However, the good news is the "junk" enchants now have a purpose increasing the overall number of useful enchants on the market which will bring down prices. The bad news is the artifact system will suck up all kinds of enchants offsetting those gains.
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
Glad I can make people smile U can farm 75 enchants in 1 hour, u;ll have 1 rank 7 of each in 4 hours. Are u sure that your numbers are correct? 126 enchants are way more + marks. 75 is the number of rank4 required to make 16 rank5 what u can fuse using wards into a rank7. Is cheaper to do it like that
Please note, that in the new system there is a difference between "matching" and "non-matching" enchantments. As I was saying earlier, you could e. g. use a "Training Runestone, Rank 4" to gain the refinement points required for the next upgrade. That's why I was saying, that I guess, you would need less time to gather 126 enchantments of any kind (runestones or enchantments), as opposed to gathering of e. g. 75 "Dark Enchantment, Rank 4".
Regarding your other post with perfects... I can tell u that 3.9 mil is a sum based on assumptions. I am pretty sure that the real price will be double .
The only assumption in the calculation is the price of the shards and the price of the refinement points (for which you would/should use shards or any other enchantment/runestone). That could increase in the Auction House, that is true. But I would guess that the price of the "Mark of Potencies" will be lower on the Auction House as they are on the Wonderous Bazar right now. Therefore depending on the price increase of the shards/enchantments and the price decrease of the "Mark of Potencies", the price may vary. But I did those calculations to compare the new to the old system and if I change base prices, both system would benefit or detriment from it simultaneously.
Therefore, IMHO in the scope of the comparison of the two system, the price changes can be ignored.
bug: refinement window: refinement points
i have two azure r6 enchants and i had separated the two in my inventory. i opened the refinement window and was feeding one r6 and was about to open the wondrous bazaar to buy my two mark of potencies and i got a private message. i pressed the escape key multiple times to get out of all the windows that were currently opened and then pressed backspace to reply to my message. then i opened my inventory and pressed the 'sort' button which then (oddly enough) stacked the two r6es. then when i separated them, i had lost about half of the RPs and had to re-feed the r6 to get it back to up to full upgrade level. i did not have the ability to replicate this (as this process ate up nearly all of my enchants).
feedback: refinement system: general
having three complete epic armor sets with up to r5s in them and a partial magelord set, i removed all of my enchants from all set pieces as well as neck, rings, waist, shirt/pants and took a look at what i had. i am 90% of the time using my HV set so i started putting some enchants together. i'm not going to get technical or exact in my math here... but from doing that, i was able to slot all offensive and defensive slots with r7s - dark, azure and radiant enchants. i ran out of r5 darks for my utility slots. i spent about 40 in gold from removing enchants and about 250k AD with my upgrades. granted, i already had some r7s... i think i upgraded about 4 enchants and did have some failed refinements using preservation wards. i was only using coffer of augmentation p wards.
i might have been more confident in my testing knowing that this was on the test shard, but i really would like to either see the % of success removed or increased... and the costs of the "marks" to either be reduced or their drop rates increased. they should also drop from leadership barrels/chests. also will greater marks be in DD chests or will they drop from every boss and will they have to be won by roll?
edit: i keep forgetting to ask. i've noticed that some enchants that have been fed RPs will not stack with same rank enchants and some will. how is this supposed to work when this goes live?
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
The problem with this assumption is the price of the non-matching enchants are going to go up as demand for them sky rockets. Any non-matching enchant will go up in price to be half of what a dark is.
Yeah, that could happen (and probably will). But on the other side, as the demand for the enchantments and runestone will plummet (as you can use up _all_ of the enchantments you get--either through normal play, or through farming--, therefore you will need to buy less enchantments), the prices should go down (depending on the amount of supply, of course).
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syka08Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
Maaaaan there's a lot of new information out there now. A recap somewhere around here of the positives would be awesome. And I see the LSD's requested format for feedback has more or less been shot to hell in this thread. But eh, that's okay. Hopefully they'll still consider what they can mine out of the discussions.
Personally, they could have easily saved half of this reading if they had done, from POST 1, the homework for us instead of handing us a contraption, stated it was better but not exactly how, and told us to play with it. Now there's a lot of mixed information out there, both good and bad, but most all of it has been helpful. Problem is, I had to do a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton of mining/reading to really pick out the pros/cons as they've developed.
Feedback: General
Congratulations LSDs, the player base has swayed my opinion on the system from wholly against it to mostly in favor of it.
See, the thing is: Every sinkhole in the game players have the option of avoiding. But enchants & runes are a core part of the game and are required (in no way optional) to deal with dungeon content in order to progress. You're proposing a Manditory AD sink with this now. Change is good, this system seems to be at least a step in the right direction, but do consider lowering this Manditory AD sink as the rate of failures are still present (and at their current failure rate to boot).
I've also come into the rank 5 and 6 levels completely free of charge. This new system Seems to be promising less time sink in exchange for a Mandatory AD sink. That... is a compromise I think I can live with. I still don't see much advantage in going up to perfects, buuuuut I would rather get up to a Perfect for around 400k AD rather than spending 2+ mil AD (which I don't think exist at that price at all) for a single perfect.
But next time a change like this comes around, please, Pleasesell it to your public. Frustrated potential customers turn into no-sales very quickly as you can see. And digging through a lot of this just to find those diamond in the rough posts that highlight a lot of the good things that come out of this system (i.e. the things that should have been pitched from the get-go) is just part of that frustrating experience.
Also, also: Rolling out previews during a holiday event? Noooot good if you want more focused attention. Luckily, this project seems like it'll be going on for maybe another month or so?
That's all from me, cats and kittens. I look forward to reading more of the debates and such, but I think I'm pretty much locked in at this point. (Granted, I thought that at the beginning. Maybe another 20+ some pages will change that).
Oh, and maybe a summary post consolidating a lot of the information (good and bad, but no ugly please) miiiight be a good idea.
Oh, and go check out gatewaytest.playneverwinter.com for the sword coast mini game. It's plenty fun and a good way to earn rank 4 enchants to fuel your future needs any which way this refinement system blows.
Oh, and if any of the information stated in my feedback is off/wrong, please feel free to correct. There's just sooo much information to have digested that maybe I got some of it wrong.
Comments
Totally agree here. There are quite a few people who NEVER buy coalescent wards or preservation wards. You can win them weekly for free with Celestial Synergy. This new system now costs AD where before it didn't have to at all.
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Have in mind that with this current system you need 64 c.wards to make a perfect enchantment and the cost for that only is around 7kk AD.
It's called feedback. In a thread specifically designed for feedback. It's a pretty simple concept.
Because while there is savings in the those types of enchants the ranked enchants will cost considerably more with the exception of rank 10s. That's not even considering the fact that enchant demand will go up and prices with it because of artifacts/
blue - 25k
purple - 100k
so a dark rank 5 upgrade to rank 6
will need 10 rank 4 to feed it = 1800 x 10 = 18000 + 25000(catalyst) + 5000(ad upgrade cost) = 48000 + green wards
how is that ANY CHEAPER? also consider the large amount of lower rank enchantment is require for everyone, the price for rank 4 and lower will prolly go high which pushing the final cost even higher
Also am i playing a video game or am i doing a MATH TEST?
how is this in any way "enjoyable" sound to you guys? developer seriously?
Thats true if we count AD as 'not free' and rank 4 enchants as somehow 'free'. But thats simply not true: rank 4 enchants no more 'free' than AD (unless u have a hundred of bots farming that rank 4 non-stop 24/7). Check prices at AH: if rank 4 enchants were free they would be selling close to zero, and they r not. And if u tell that someone can farm that rank 4's - well someone can farm AD too. And if u tell that farming AD is 'hard' and long - well farming hundreds/thousands dark enchants is also not quite easy and fast (unless u have farming bots).
Were I to attempt to raise a new Ranger character to Lv60 with a fresh set of Enchantments under the new refinement system could I do that for free exactly as I did for my CW? Of course not! Therefore the complaints.
The poster formerly known as LordOfPit, and his blog.
* Dec 2007 (CO)
* Oct 2008 (STO)
I stopped spending real money on this after the BoP mistake. I had a feeling watching the changes they were making up until then that it wasn't going to be the last time they screwed over the player. I'm glad I foresaw that and closed my wallet. It would take a whole lot for these companies to earn back any of my dollars.
well while levelling noone put enchants higher than 4 lvl anyway. when u r at 60 lvl - again, usually noone put enchants higher than 5 lvl, unless he/she has a good gear at that moment (unslotting is pretty expensive and noone unslot anything less than lvl 7). So when ur ranger under new system got lvl 60, u could easily put lvl 5 enchants at that moment (catalists r 2 lesser marks of potency which cost 1000 Ad at most and could be found at usual skill nodes) spending close to zero AD - and feeling not worse than under old system.
As for lvl 6 - when u got ur good gear, u almost definitely also got that 225k AD (25*9) for levelling up 5's to 6's, and that in case u found zero Marks of potency at dungeon's skill nodes or bosses while u r getting ur gear (i accept though that 25k ad ceiling for lvl 6 looks a bit high, 15-20k would be better).
lvl 7 looks like lvl 6, and starting from lvl 8 new system is definitely cheaper
You're right, that you cannot avoid the direct Astral Diamond cost of the upgrades (you can farm the required "Mark of Potency" as well as the "Wards"). But, if you would incline to start selling stuff on the Auction House--if you haven't done that before--, you could get the required Astral Diamonds needed for the upgrade, from excess material you got through drops ("Mark of Potency", "Wards" and maybe enchantments). And you would need a lot less of those ("Wards" and enchantments) as you would in the current system.
Well said. I was skeptical of the new system. After playing around with it, I am starting to like it. Been trying to explain the reduced cost to some friends but from now on I am using your TCO phrase.
That said, devs need to put out a video explain the new system and showing how it will reduce the TCO significantly. It would help out with confusion. One of the mods had some good ideas as well. Get rid of the AD cost for the lower end enchantments.
I got a r7 to r8 to refinement point an its r6 to r7 just using the loads of enchants/runes i had laying around that i dont even need, now I just need the mark. Also got my vopral to greater refining point... something i dont think i would be able to do with the previous system. This new system just made any enchant/rune u get valuable and freed all that bag space and also no more wasted enchants due to breakage.
Also shards, they are so valuable now as they give a good deal of rp and i usually just stacked the few i actually might convert into enchants. now just stack them all in bank and use them for refinement ( u can use them on anything). Those dark fey keys = 1 shard now so im gona be spending those 20 keys i got + the 2 i can get a day ( just one alt) so by the time module 2 is released i will probably have enough shards to push my vorpal into greater with just that + all the others i get from running dungeons for more enchant upgrading.
the gretaer mark is obviously whats going to be holding us back, but we will see how hard they actually are to get but at worst theyre at the price of coals, and u need many less.
So right now knowing how the system works, id say get ready for it start stacking shards enchants and runes and dont fuse them unless ur getting a direct upgrade to use now or setting a base for the future upgrading, like getting some r6s-7s of the type u want to use to push up ur current enchants.
In regards to astral diamonds used: you would need a flat fee of 31,000 ADs to make the upgrades from rank 4 to rank 7, additionally to the amount of preservation wards you need to make _3_ upgrades (you had 21 fusing steps before!) and the Marks of Potencies. You need to decide for yourself how you value those things.
You would need 2 green and 3 blue "Marks of Potency". IIRC, the greens have a chance to drop in skill nodes, but I do not remember where the blues are dropping (the epic ones drop only from epic Dungeon Bosses, that I do remember).
Just for the giggles, and on a sidenote:
If your time is free, just send me your cv and you can work for me for free! *scnr* :cool:
Right now, it still gets really confusing on exactly what you need to rank up enchantments. For example, on a Vorpal enchantment, no only do you need to get the correct amount of RP, the right Catalysts and the Ward, you also need ANOTHER Vorpal enchantment of the same level as ANOTHER catalyst, which I think greatly adds to the confusion over exactly what people need to continue to rank up their weapon and/or armor enchantments. It just seems like you've kept that needlessly complex part of the equation, when it seems like your overall goal is to simplify stuff.
Also, on a side note, I'd like to remind a lot of people belly-aching about the AD cost being mandatory now that AD are part of the actual game. You have tons of ways to earn AD through the course of normal playing, and if you'd just think of AD as another game currency, like gold, seals or glory, I don't really see what the big deal is.
Like another poster said above, all those runes and enchants you're picking up are basically little buckets of AD if you turn around and sell them on the AH. Just because you're dumping them back into creating enchants and not converting them into AD doesn't mean what you're doing doesn't have an AD cost associated with it.
For example, if you had 4 enchantments worth 5k AD each, and you fuse them together, the cost of that enchant was essentially the 20k AD you could've made selling those on the AH. So either way, you're technically "spending" AD to rank up your enchantments. The bonus to this new system is that ALL enchants are valuable, because they can ALL be used as RP points, so you don't need to collect a ton of a very specific enchant to continue building out your enchants. Any enchant, any shard, any rune will do, in addition to the numerous other RP items they've added to the game.
Sorry, to confirm its 3,875,000 AD to make a perfect from matching shards?
Whats the cost if we use non matching shards?
The actual system is relatively easy to understand : you can merge 4 enchant in 1 of a higher quality
The new system is as much complex as many ask for a video explaining it, that's a bad point for me
Feedback: General :speed to use
actual : double click then click OK, try not to forget the ward if you want to use one, actually reasonably fast to use
The new one is quite the nightmare, you have to select the enchant, select the other enchants to refine it, be sure to have the right catalyst, don't forget the ward, and then refine then upgrade.
With the old one once the enchant window was open you would just have to double clic to transform your enchant, now you've got to mouse click like mad on the screen just to make one upgrade
Feedback: General :space needed in inventory
Nearly two or three time the one needed before, the basic enchant, the refine enchant (not stackable) and the catalyst
Feedback: General :cost
the actual one need no AD if you wish to upgrade your enchant, just farm them and try to upgrade.
In the new one it is mandatory, and you'll have to add the price of the catalyst
Feedback: General
The actual system is not the best, but it works and is relatively easy and fast to use. The only drawback is the difficulty to make high end enchant or weapon/armor enchant. That could easily be resolved by lowering all AD/zen cost related to enchant, many other posts before mine have great suggestions on this subject.
The new system doesn't resolve any problems the actual one has, it just add complexity, time and space to use it. It just make it really worse to use.
My thoughts, if this system takes place as is, I'll just transform as much enchant as I can before the change. And I won't do any other enchant with the new system at all.
You've done a great job so far on shadowmantle, but the new refining system is a total <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
And it might ruin all the game because refinement is nearly mandatory if you want to do the end game dungeons/PVP
I'm not sure how you are calculating the normal enchants. A rank 7 in the current system requires 64 rank 4's to make. In new it requires a rank 4 to start. 3 more to get it to rank 5 (4). 12 more to get to 6 (16). 48 more to get to 7 (64). Which is exactly the same amount. But you need to add 31K in upgrade fees plus catalyst fees. But you do get to save a little on preservation wards.
Rank 9's and 10's have a reduced number of enchants need but 9 isn't reduced enough to offset all the fees.
another advantage is if you have multiple armor sets like i do, you just need to level up one set of enchantments and you can swap them out into whatever set you're using. or have specific enchants on hand that you're refining. every time you get an enchant drop, just feed it into whatever you're leveling up. no more enchants taking over your inventory slots.
also, slotted runestones with refinement points... the refinement points are not showing up in the tooltip.
If you would use non-matching shards, you would need 126 rank 4 enchantments; if you would use matching shards, you would need 63 to upgrade your one rank 4 to rank 7.
So, if you look on the amount of stuff you need to get to a rank 7 it looks like it is going to be more expensive (because of the additional catalyst and AD fee usage), but as I wrote above, you can use any and all type of enchantments, etc. There are two type of costs involved in gaining those enchantments: either you buy in the Auction House for AD, or you spend time farming the enchantments. In both cases the value (AD or time) you need to invest will go down, because
Therefore, IMHO, even those who used to farm their enchantments should benefit from the new system--depending on the drop-rate of the "Mark of Potencies".
Example:
I did a calculation of the upgrade of a Dark enchantment from rank 4 to 7 in the old and the new system. I used the following price values for it:
I made the following assumptions:
Based on the above mentioned values and assumptions I calculated a TOC (total cost of ownership) for
That is not much difference and only works, if you consider time-spent valuable and not free, as well as you actually sell stuff on the Auction House.
The difference get's higher starting at rank 8 (495,980 ADs compared to 719,700 ADs) up to rank 10 (3.4mio ADs compared to 11.6mio ADs).
So in conclusion: with the new system the enchantments starting at Rank 8 (or at "Normal" Weapon/Armor enchantments) get cheaper.
Glad I can make people smile
Regarding your other post with perfects... I can tell u that 3.9 mil is a sum based on assumptions. I am pretty sure that the real price will be double
What is with catalysts? Ty!
The problem with this assumption is the price of the non-matching enchants are going to go up as demand for them sky rockets. Any non-matching enchant will go up in price to be half of what a dark is.
However, the good news is the "junk" enchants now have a purpose increasing the overall number of useful enchants on the market which will bring down prices. The bad news is the artifact system will suck up all kinds of enchants offsetting those gains.
The only assumption in the calculation is the price of the shards and the price of the refinement points (for which you would/should use shards or any other enchantment/runestone). That could increase in the Auction House, that is true. But I would guess that the price of the "Mark of Potencies" will be lower on the Auction House as they are on the Wonderous Bazar right now. Therefore depending on the price increase of the shards/enchantments and the price decrease of the "Mark of Potencies", the price may vary. But I did those calculations to compare the new to the old system and if I change base prices, both system would benefit or detriment from it simultaneously.
Therefore, IMHO in the scope of the comparison of the two system, the price changes can be ignored.
i have two azure r6 enchants and i had separated the two in my inventory. i opened the refinement window and was feeding one r6 and was about to open the wondrous bazaar to buy my two mark of potencies and i got a private message. i pressed the escape key multiple times to get out of all the windows that were currently opened and then pressed backspace to reply to my message. then i opened my inventory and pressed the 'sort' button which then (oddly enough) stacked the two r6es. then when i separated them, i had lost about half of the RPs and had to re-feed the r6 to get it back to up to full upgrade level. i did not have the ability to replicate this (as this process ate up nearly all of my enchants).
feedback: refinement system: general
having three complete epic armor sets with up to r5s in them and a partial magelord set, i removed all of my enchants from all set pieces as well as neck, rings, waist, shirt/pants and took a look at what i had. i am 90% of the time using my HV set so i started putting some enchants together. i'm not going to get technical or exact in my math here... but from doing that, i was able to slot all offensive and defensive slots with r7s - dark, azure and radiant enchants. i ran out of r5 darks for my utility slots. i spent about 40 in gold from removing enchants and about 250k AD with my upgrades. granted, i already had some r7s... i think i upgraded about 4 enchants and did have some failed refinements using preservation wards. i was only using coffer of augmentation p wards.
i might have been more confident in my testing knowing that this was on the test shard, but i really would like to either see the % of success removed or increased... and the costs of the "marks" to either be reduced or their drop rates increased. they should also drop from leadership barrels/chests. also will greater marks be in DD chests or will they drop from every boss and will they have to be won by roll?
edit: i keep forgetting to ask. i've noticed that some enchants that have been fed RPs will not stack with same rank enchants and some will. how is this supposed to work when this goes live?
Personally, they could have easily saved half of this reading if they had done, from POST 1, the homework for us instead of handing us a contraption, stated it was better but not exactly how, and told us to play with it. Now there's a lot of mixed information out there, both good and bad, but most all of it has been helpful. Problem is, I had to do a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton of mining/reading to really pick out the pros/cons as they've developed.
Feedback: General
Congratulations LSDs, the player base has swayed my opinion on the system from wholly against it to mostly in favor of it.
See, the thing is: Every sinkhole in the game players have the option of avoiding. But enchants & runes are a core part of the game and are required (in no way optional) to deal with dungeon content in order to progress. You're proposing a Manditory AD sink with this now. Change is good, this system seems to be at least a step in the right direction, but do consider lowering this Manditory AD sink as the rate of failures are still present (and at their current failure rate to boot).
I've also come into the rank 5 and 6 levels completely free of charge. This new system Seems to be promising less time sink in exchange for a Mandatory AD sink. That... is a compromise I think I can live with. I still don't see much advantage in going up to perfects, buuuuut I would rather get up to a Perfect for around 400k AD rather than spending 2+ mil AD (which I don't think exist at that price at all) for a single perfect.
But next time a change like this comes around, please, Please sell it to your public. Frustrated potential customers turn into no-sales very quickly as you can see. And digging through a lot of this just to find those diamond in the rough posts that highlight a lot of the good things that come out of this system (i.e. the things that should have been pitched from the get-go) is just part of that frustrating experience.
Also, also: Rolling out previews during a holiday event? Noooot good if you want more focused attention. Luckily, this project seems like it'll be going on for maybe another month or so?
That's all from me, cats and kittens. I look forward to reading more of the debates and such, but I think I'm pretty much locked in at this point. (Granted, I thought that at the beginning. Maybe another 20+ some pages will change that).
Oh, and maybe a summary post consolidating a lot of the information (good and bad, but no ugly please) miiiight be a good idea.
Oh, and go check out gatewaytest.playneverwinter.com for the sword coast mini game. It's plenty fun and a good way to earn rank 4 enchants to fuel your future needs any which way this refinement system blows.
Oh, and if any of the information stated in my feedback is off/wrong, please feel free to correct. There's just sooo much information to have digested that maybe I got some of it wrong.