gipsylassMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 61
edited November 2013
Feedback: Tested the system today trying to level up a Rank 6 Enchantment to Rank 7. I'm not sure if it's more expensive - I would have had to buy 2 catalysts at 25k each plus the refining at another 25k (if I remember correctly). Plus a ward. Seems quite expensive to me - in any case it's more complicated.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited November 2013
Well, I find this all rather interesting. I am not delighted with an up-front cost, but I can live with it. I'm not the wealthiest player and very much not fully outfitted at this time, but I have a small army of characters and a sizeable pile of all sort of rank 5s I was sitting on waiting for level 60 gear on many of them. Gold cost to unslot means I don't need to fret about how long I'm going to end up keeping a particular gear set. My GWF is in level 60 blues and switches between a regen and a DPS set depending what I'm doing with him. Neither set is enchanted because I didn't want to "waste" stuff on them. This will no longer be a concern. I can do things like work on feeding dark enchants for all the utility slots of each character I have, instead of sitting on a pile of rank 5s waiting to make a single rank 7 and hoping the RNG is nice to me.
The amount of RNG that goes into making those "free" rank 5s, 6s, 7s under the current system is a pretty big deal. I avoid the majority of bad streaks of failure through a bunch of self-imposed rules, and still flinch every time I fail to fuse 4s or (certain) 5s where I'm going un-warded, because the lost fragment represents everything that was previously put into it. That can be a lot of accumulated pieces. You don't lose the pieces that were fed into your RP bar, pres wards are still quite affordable compared to the higher level catalysts, and you don't need to pile up nearly so many successful fusions to go up each rank.
I do see how having any associated AD cost could be somewhat prohibitive to a new player without a bank full of existing stuff to draw on, but starting fresh is a disadvantage under either system. My level 60s can help kit out new alts of mine either way. I know that anyone I start levelling now will be feeding their rank 1,2,3,4s into higher rank enchants, not ranking them up from scratch. I also know that not everyone is sitting on piles of assets like I am.
I really like that you can use anything to feed anything, because it really will clean up my inventory. No more unmanageable, unfusable stacks rank 1-3 anything. Into the maw with it all!
The change to weapon and armour enchantments is such a big resource reduction that I'm already kicking myself at having gone so far as making a couple of normal enchantments under the old system, when I'd have been able to take those to greaters with the same consumed rare resources if I'd waited (and this is something I did recently, so it's not like I've been enjoying those enchants for months already :P). My precious, precious stock of coalescent wards!
I see somebody mentioned that you cannot currently feed runes that are slotted into companions, and while I did verify the other day that unslotting these is also just a gold cost, I'd very much appreciate the convenience of being able to work on upgrading a rune while it's in use.
I am well aware of that. People can farm preservation wards as well. Meanwhile you can buy them on the Zen store. It's a F2P game made by a company in business to make money. Guessing their motivation isn't hard. Nothing wrong with that but it is what it is.
At the end of the day the argument is pointless because players who buy AD with Zen can always buy the Catalysts from the Wondrous Bazaar or from other players. The good part is that it's available in game and it's not exclusive to the Zen Market and that's what I was trying to point out.
I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
i couldnt upgrade my weapon enchant, but maybe i dont really understand it yet so i might have done something wrong
there is one change i WOULD like to this system - allow to replace ad cost with additional enchantments or reduce the cost in some other way using unneeded enchants cause for low rank stones this seems 2 expensive/annoying
it would be nice that you could make rank5 as easy as now without any wards or anything especially when ppl have been hoarding rank3 and rank4 enchants. that could ease strain on market since poorer ppl would be selling them to get ad for upgrades making them dirt cheap and benefiting only those who have a lot of ad already
I think it was clear from the get-go that power would be sold, however you could decide how to pay for that power, with your time, your money or a mixture of both. This new system is taking that choice away and urging us to go into our wallets more than ever before.
exactly how is the new system forcing me to turn to my wallet to upgrade? it's not like this new system is taking away my ability to make in-game AD. i'm still able to get rAD from the salvager, daily quests, leadership... and selling items on the AH for AD. the only thing that would be forcing me to open my wallet to upgrade is my own impatience. and that could be said of the current and the new system.
I will not talk about the new system because for me is obvious worse than the actual. What I don't understand is: Why do you care so much about the influx of AD when most of flood come from events created by developers, like 2xAD or Waukeen/Tymora?
Removing AD from new players and casuals will only make these people buy AD in third-party sites. The prices are so high that isn't appealing to exchange for zen or play to get it.
feedback: refinement system: refinement points let's say i have a r6 azure and i feed it some RP. if i take that r6 azure and feed it into a r7 azure, will the RPs on the r6 be taken into account? if not, why not?
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
At the end of the day the argument is pointless because players who buy AD with Zen can always buy the Catalysts from the Wondrous Bazaar or from other players. The good part is that it's available in game and it's not exclusive to the Zen Market and that's what I was trying to point out.
Not if they want to buy the Artifact catalysts. Those appear to be drop only for now.
I would like to reiterate my request to please do away with the multiple catalyst types. One type of non enchant catalyst for all refining please.
Feedback: General The new system isn't terribly intuitive (at least not to me). The current system is hard if you can't get coal wards, yes, but it's simple and easy to understand. The refinement system just seems more complicated than it needs to be. It annoys me that it's possible to consume a bunch of enchants to increase the RP of one enchant only to not be able to actually upgrade it without yet another object (i.e. a catalyst) that will conceivably take quite a long while to get if you play at the rate I play and get hardly any AD per day as a result. I'd much rather have a guaranteed preservation ward every seven days and stick with the current system than have to plunk down 5 days' worth of AD that I'd prefer to keep for something else.
It is nice that I can funnel unwanted enchants/runes into the ones I actually want, but then again I'm okay with doing what I do now which is selling them on the AH to people who want them more than I do.
The gold-to-unslot thing is a huge plus, though. I can actually use enchants as I level now instead of having them waste space in my inventory forever.
dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
Abell, the AD vendor is not the only place to get marks, and pretty sure it is not intended as the primary place to get them, just like it isn't the primary source of enchantments under the new system. The marks that are needed as catalysts drop from various sources depending upon which quality you are looking for.
I would suggest the catalysts don't drop frequently enough given there are various types needed for different things.
Bug:Over Requirement
When you have more than the requirement and refine the screen locks in a sort of limbo where it is unclear what is happening to the various enchants. The screen doesn't freeze, but it doesn't consume any reources they all get a yellow progress bar and sit there. In comparison to having less than required or exactly what is required where the resources are consumed.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited November 2013
. . . . . Please, remove the ridiculous mandatory AD costs. I'll revisit testing and playing with the system if you do. Until then, I shall continue fusing everything I get on the live server for in its current state on Preview, it will become yet another over-priced AD sink that I shall never touch, at best. I'm not using the current AD sinks, not because they're something don't like, it's because far too much costs AD as it is, and now more is being added, and with a mandatory factor at that. Coupled with the current AD sinks being ridiculous in price, yeah... that's why I don't use them. Please take that into account into your "numbers," PWE. Thanks.
medievalmissMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 20Arc User
edited November 2013
I have been leveling a new character on the preview and am now level 27. I have more than 10 level one and two enchants sitting in my inventory because I have not found the marks to upgrade them. Under the old system, I could have ranked up all of these by now. I did get 5 free marks in level 15 pack and used them. I have not found any marks adventuring in the environment at all, though a fellow guildie did find a couple. However, even a couple is far too few to make ranking up low level enchants worthwhile, and the supposed savings on inventory space is thus null and void. Why should I even bother to rank up those low levels with the new system. Instead, I can just wait until I'm a higher rank and the drops are rank 3's or even rank 4's. Maybe this new system is better for higher level characters and enchants, but it is pretty worthless for the low levels based on my experience.
Just one thing, Could you stop calling the Catalysts Catalysts? There not Catalysts! They're reagents! Catalysts aren't consumed on use, Reagents are. So please, for the sake of my inner Chemist, change the name.
My inner Pedant.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
I'm sorry but I have to disagree: AD sinks can't be optional. This one isn't optional unless you think that someone can actually play endgame dungeons without weapon/armor enchantments and rank_5+ enchantments.
Sinks in games are almost always optional. They offer nice things people want but typically don't need purely to remove currency from the game.
The most common sink in games (universally that is) is Player Owned Houses. Player owned houses have a couple of actual functions which supply players with power in most cases but are largely cosmetic, completely optional and normally only supply power in the form of convenience (storage, quick transport, etc)
Enchantments beyond level 5 can be argued as optional but this system was obviously designed because too many people never advanced beyond level 5. Well to get level 5 enchantments the old system is a thousand times better so if that's what you want to argue then by all means keep saying bring back the old system.
A couple of dozen pages back Zeb listed off all of the AD sinks in the game off the top of his head. They exist. In droves.
The problem, as khimera906 said, is that nobody uses them because they are way too high.
AD sinks are good for in game economies and I advocate them but they need to be properly balanced and not a single AD sink in the game is properly balanced.
If they want people to use AD sinks step one should be lowering the price, not making a sink mandatory.
Again, even if the price for a rank 10 was 1/4 of what it is I wouldn't be up in arms. This AD sink isn't good because it's mandatory, it's an attrocity because it's still outrageously overpriced.
Economics 101: if people aren't purchasing products there are one of two reasons, they aren't interested in the product (not the case with any of the AD sinks) or people don't feel the fee is worth the product.
People have said forever that they wanted to remove enchantments but not for 350K AD. It's a complete failure on PWE's end to not consider the price was too high, period, before proposing this overpriced monstrosity.
I cant play on test server but i am following this on forum with alot of interest and i have a few things on my mind:
First is the Coalescent Wards, i have to remind u that the true price for that is 1k zen, rest can change way too easy so when u are making an estimate price pls take that fee as official! I feel the need to remind u that was a period when drop rate in coffers was 5% and that will put the coalescent ward right about 1k zen.
Second: i dont understand why is so complicated with the consumption of other enchant types or shards, u could have added an exchange shop and be done with it as a simple new tab on wondrous bazaar, simple and clean!
Third: New Marks just adds a new lvl of complexity and a currency without any reason, u already have the Coalescent/Preservation Wards... If your pve content would have been less exploitable then marks would be rly useless.
Fourth: Making rank 7 enchant was never as easy: everything is there for u to make 1 rank 7 enchant in one hour. Rank 10 and Perfect enchants should be things rly hard to get, only for dedicated players or paying customers! I dont care about being imbalanced in pvp, there is no pvp atm! If u want balanced pvp probably in tournaments u;ll have to use some standards sets but is such a long way till there. So if someone pays 1k Euros to support the game and gets a perfect enchant is rly no problem with me!!
edit: Ty uurbs 1kzen instead of 2k
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
First is the Coalescent Wards, i have to remind u that the true price for that is 2k zen, rest can change way too easy so when u are making an estimate price pls take that fee as official! I feel the need to remind u that was a period when drop rate in coffers was 5% and that will put the coalescent ward right about 2k zen.
It's 1,000 Zen. What exchange rate should be used: 280 ADs per Zen--as I've seen by the end of the open beta or 420 ADs per Zen as it was 2 weeks back? But, I feel the need to remind you, that doing so would heavily favour the new system, as you need 85 Coalescent Wards in the current system to go from "Shards" to "Perfect"--you would only need 15 in the new system. And the higher the price of the Ward, the more favourable the system with the less usage is.
It's 1,000 Zen. What exchange rate should be used: 280 ADs per Zen--as I've seen by the end of the open beta or 420 ADs per Zen as it was 2 weeks back? But, I feel the need to remind you, that doing so would heavily favour the new system, as you need 85 Coalescent Wards in the current system to go from "Shards" to "Perfect"--you would only need 15 in the new system. And the higher the price of the Ward, the more favourable the system with the less usage is.
85 wards at 100k ad = 8.5 mil
15 wards for 400k ad = 6 mil + marks costs
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
I'm wondering if catalysts will also be contained in the boxes gained by leadership - just like enchantments and runestones are. That'd be a good idea to increase the chance of getting them for free. And it'd make leadership much more useful.
Because atm i know for sure they are 100k ad in ah. In the future i have no guarantee that they;ll be at the same price so for an estimation i have to use the zen price.
Preservation wards cost 100 zen and is in line with 1000 zen for a Coalescent and sooner or later the drop rate for them will be corrected and i think that time is now. They only went with a higher drop rate cause otherwise noone would have been able to craft a perfect at those prices.
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
Because atm i know for sure they are 100k ad in ah. In the future i have no guarantee that they;ll be at the same price so for an estimation i have to use the zen price.
[...]
You're totally right. We cannot be sure of anything. For example, they could stop dropping all enchantments, therefore I totally second, that we should use the prices of enchantments form the Wonderous basar, because we can only be sure about those. IIRC a rank 5 was about 100k ADs. So let's use that price!
Also, we don't know about the future exchange rates of Zen to Astral Diamonds, therefore I highly suggest that we're going to use a 1:10,000 rate. Therefore 15 Coalescent Wards would be 150,000,000 Astral Diamonds, which is inacceptably more expensive than the 8,500,000 it costs right now. So let's scrub the new system. It totally blows.
If you find any irony and sarcasmn in this post, you've managed to grasp my opinion about comparisons based on different values.
I'm wondering if catalysts will also be contained in the boxes gained by leadership - just like enchantments and runestones are. That'd be a good idea to increase the chance of getting them for free. And it'd make leadership much more useful.
Not at the moment, I've open a couple of hundred of those chests on the Preview shard and gained nothing. There are already two Feedback postings in this thread asking that the Leadership boxes should drop "Mark of Potency", the same as they drop in the skill nodes.
You're totally right. We cannot be sure of anything. For example, they could stop dropping all enchantments, therefore I totally second, that we should use the prices of enchantments form the Wonderous basar, because we can only be sure about those. IIRC a rank 5 was about 100k ADs. So let's use that price!
Also, we don't know about the future exchange rates of Zen to Astral Diamonds, therefore I highly suggest that we're going to use a 1:10,000 rate. Therefore 15 Coalescent Wards would be 150,000,000 Astral Diamonds, which is inacceptably more expensive than the 8,500,000 it costs right now. So let's scrub the new system. It totally blows.
If you find any irony and sarcasmn in this post, you've managed to grasp my opinion about comparisons based on different values.
It's like you can see into the future!
:rolleyes:
I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
Comments
Tested the system today trying to level up a Rank 6 Enchantment to Rank 7. I'm not sure if it's more expensive - I would have had to buy 2 catalysts at 25k each plus the refining at another 25k (if I remember correctly). Plus a ward. Seems quite expensive to me - in any case it's more complicated.
The amount of RNG that goes into making those "free" rank 5s, 6s, 7s under the current system is a pretty big deal. I avoid the majority of bad streaks of failure through a bunch of self-imposed rules, and still flinch every time I fail to fuse 4s or (certain) 5s where I'm going un-warded, because the lost fragment represents everything that was previously put into it. That can be a lot of accumulated pieces. You don't lose the pieces that were fed into your RP bar, pres wards are still quite affordable compared to the higher level catalysts, and you don't need to pile up nearly so many successful fusions to go up each rank.
I do see how having any associated AD cost could be somewhat prohibitive to a new player without a bank full of existing stuff to draw on, but starting fresh is a disadvantage under either system. My level 60s can help kit out new alts of mine either way. I know that anyone I start levelling now will be feeding their rank 1,2,3,4s into higher rank enchants, not ranking them up from scratch. I also know that not everyone is sitting on piles of assets like I am.
I really like that you can use anything to feed anything, because it really will clean up my inventory. No more unmanageable, unfusable stacks rank 1-3 anything. Into the maw with it all!
The change to weapon and armour enchantments is such a big resource reduction that I'm already kicking myself at having gone so far as making a couple of normal enchantments under the old system, when I'd have been able to take those to greaters with the same consumed rare resources if I'd waited (and this is something I did recently, so it's not like I've been enjoying those enchants for months already :P). My precious, precious stock of coalescent wards!
I see somebody mentioned that you cannot currently feed runes that are slotted into companions, and while I did verify the other day that unslotting these is also just a gold cost, I'd very much appreciate the convenience of being able to work on upgrading a rune while it's in use.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
there is one change i WOULD like to this system - allow to replace ad cost with additional enchantments or reduce the cost in some other way using unneeded enchants cause for low rank stones this seems 2 expensive/annoying
it would be nice that you could make rank5 as easy as now without any wards or anything especially when ppl have been hoarding rank3 and rank4 enchants. that could ease strain on market since poorer ppl would be selling them to get ad for upgrades making them dirt cheap and benefiting only those who have a lot of ad already
i'm going to assume that this will be an option once this goes live.
exactly how is the new system forcing me to turn to my wallet to upgrade? it's not like this new system is taking away my ability to make in-game AD. i'm still able to get rAD from the salvager, daily quests, leadership... and selling items on the AH for AD. the only thing that would be forcing me to open my wallet to upgrade is my own impatience. and that could be said of the current and the new system.
Removing AD from new players and casuals will only make these people buy AD in third-party sites. The prices are so high that isn't appealing to exchange for zen or play to get it.
Just my thoughts.
let's say i have a r6 azure and i feed it some RP. if i take that r6 azure and feed it into a r7 azure, will the RPs on the r6 be taken into account? if not, why not?
Not if they want to buy the Artifact catalysts. Those appear to be drop only for now.
I would like to reiterate my request to please do away with the multiple catalyst types. One type of non enchant catalyst for all refining please.
The new system isn't terribly intuitive (at least not to me). The current system is hard if you can't get coal wards, yes, but it's simple and easy to understand. The refinement system just seems more complicated than it needs to be. It annoys me that it's possible to consume a bunch of enchants to increase the RP of one enchant only to not be able to actually upgrade it without yet another object (i.e. a catalyst) that will conceivably take quite a long while to get if you play at the rate I play and get hardly any AD per day as a result. I'd much rather have a guaranteed preservation ward every seven days and stick with the current system than have to plunk down 5 days' worth of AD that I'd prefer to keep for something else.
It is nice that I can funnel unwanted enchants/runes into the ones I actually want, but then again I'm okay with doing what I do now which is selling them on the AH to people who want them more than I do.
The gold-to-unslot thing is a huge plus, though. I can actually use enchants as I level now instead of having them waste space in my inventory forever.
Kaylee Krankenwagen, level 60 GF | Tavandruil Wayfinder, level 49 GWF | Aldith Langley, level 51 HR
Bug:Over Requirement
When you have more than the requirement and refine the screen locks in a sort of limbo where it is unclear what is happening to the various enchants. The screen doesn't freeze, but it doesn't consume any reources they all get a yellow progress bar and sit there. In comparison to having less than required or exactly what is required where the resources are consumed.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
My inner Pedant.
Sinks in games are almost always optional. They offer nice things people want but typically don't need purely to remove currency from the game.
The most common sink in games (universally that is) is Player Owned Houses. Player owned houses have a couple of actual functions which supply players with power in most cases but are largely cosmetic, completely optional and normally only supply power in the form of convenience (storage, quick transport, etc)
Enchantments beyond level 5 can be argued as optional but this system was obviously designed because too many people never advanced beyond level 5. Well to get level 5 enchantments the old system is a thousand times better so if that's what you want to argue then by all means keep saying bring back the old system.
A couple of dozen pages back Zeb listed off all of the AD sinks in the game off the top of his head. They exist. In droves.
The problem, as khimera906 said, is that nobody uses them because they are way too high.
AD sinks are good for in game economies and I advocate them but they need to be properly balanced and not a single AD sink in the game is properly balanced.
If they want people to use AD sinks step one should be lowering the price, not making a sink mandatory.
Again, even if the price for a rank 10 was 1/4 of what it is I wouldn't be up in arms. This AD sink isn't good because it's mandatory, it's an attrocity because it's still outrageously overpriced.
Economics 101: if people aren't purchasing products there are one of two reasons, they aren't interested in the product (not the case with any of the AD sinks) or people don't feel the fee is worth the product.
People have said forever that they wanted to remove enchantments but not for 350K AD. It's a complete failure on PWE's end to not consider the price was too high, period, before proposing this overpriced monstrosity.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
First is the Coalescent Wards, i have to remind u that the true price for that is 1k zen, rest can change way too easy so when u are making an estimate price pls take that fee as official! I feel the need to remind u that was a period when drop rate in coffers was 5% and that will put the coalescent ward right about 1k zen.
Second: i dont understand why is so complicated with the consumption of other enchant types or shards, u could have added an exchange shop and be done with it as a simple new tab on wondrous bazaar, simple and clean!
Third: New Marks just adds a new lvl of complexity and a currency without any reason, u already have the Coalescent/Preservation Wards... If your pve content would have been less exploitable then marks would be rly useless.
Fourth: Making rank 7 enchant was never as easy: everything is there for u to make 1 rank 7 enchant in one hour. Rank 10 and Perfect enchants should be things rly hard to get, only for dedicated players or paying customers! I dont care about being imbalanced in pvp, there is no pvp atm! If u want balanced pvp probably in tournaments u;ll have to use some standards sets but is such a long way till there. So if someone pays 1k Euros to support the game and gets a perfect enchant is rly no problem with me!!
edit: Ty uurbs 1kzen instead of 2k
85 wards at 100k ad = 8.5 mil
15 wards for 400k ad = 6 mil + marks costs
Because atm i know for sure they are 100k ad in ah. In the future i have no guarantee that they;ll be at the same price so for an estimation i have to use the zen price.
Preservation wards cost 100 zen and is in line with 1000 zen for a Coalescent and sooner or later the drop rate for them will be corrected and i think that time is now. They only went with a higher drop rate cause otherwise noone would have been able to craft a perfect at those prices.
Also, we don't know about the future exchange rates of Zen to Astral Diamonds, therefore I highly suggest that we're going to use a 1:10,000 rate. Therefore 15 Coalescent Wards would be 150,000,000 Astral Diamonds, which is inacceptably more expensive than the 8,500,000 it costs right now. So let's scrub the new system. It totally blows.
If you find any irony and sarcasmn in this post, you've managed to grasp my opinion about comparisons based on different values.
:rolleyes:
Too complex. Make it easier.