Most of the complaints about PvP are soley down to the fact the people don't understand how to play Domination. I appreciate that most people don't WANT to play Domination, they want to play Deathmatch, but that's not what we've got.
I'll go out on a limb and state that there are certain PvP game types that favour one class over the others. Balancing for one game type will break others. This has already happened with changes made for PvP adversely affected PvE.
Yes, I'm aware that Domination is the only game in town at the moment. What I'm saying is that you're complaining about the wrong thing.
Tele Savalas, Dwarf Thaumaturge CW
Putting the Buff into Debuff since 2013 \o/ (Does that even make sense)?
Most of the complaints about PvP are soley down to the fact the people don't understand how to play Domination. I appreciate that most people don't WANT to play Domination, they want to play Deathmatch, but that's not what we've got.
I'll go out on a limb and state that there are certain PvP game types that favour one class over the others. Balancing for one game type will break others. This has already happened with changes made for PvP adversely affected PvE.
Yes, I'm aware that Domination is the only game in town at the moment. What I'm saying is that you're complaining about the wrong thing.
Yes, this is why I think we're not going to see a deathmatch mode. There is always going to have to be some sort of objective (CTF, king of the hill etc) because all of their balancing to this point has been based on objective based PvP. Sent GWF would be worthless in deathmatch b/c while he's hard to kill he also does <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> damage, same with DC, good for survivability but now kills are the name of the game. It would alienate too many builds and classes, so they will probably stick to objective based game modes, which are more fun than just kill everyone IMO. Deathmatch is the mode that would draw all the players that have no strategy or tactic other than kill player that's in front of me, and strategy and tactics are what set one premade above another.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Open world pvp..... done. For the life of me i cant understand what is taking sooo long on this. It shouldn't be separate from the main game, but part of it. I cant attack another player??? How D&D is that?
Right click on player send a challenge, anywhere anytime, for any reason.... done. done.
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dante123plMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
Open world pvp..... done. For the life of me i cant understand what is taking sooo long on this. It shouldn't be separate from the main game, but part of it. I cant attack another player??? How D&D is that?
Right click on player send a challenge, anywhere anytime, for any reason.... done. done.
maps in this game are too little for open world pvp
maps in this game are too little for open world pvp
Can you elaborate a little i dont understand that. How are maps to small for me to right click a player and send a challenge? I cant understand how that effects anything at all.
I think the PvE portion of GG would make a nice map for more open PvP. Each faction starts on either side and you would have to not only battle the NPC's for the drops and such that you need but also the opposing factions players. That would revitalize GG as well.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
The fact that the only PvP type available is Domination.
My complaint is that it is fundamentally unfair and unbalanced that, currently, some classes/builds are almost impossible to kill by other classes/builds. Adding new pvp types will not change this fact.
I could meet the same "unkillable" GWF in deathmatch pvp. Still will not be able to kill him 1v1, unless he makes a mistake or has lag, or something like that.
My complaint is that it is fundamentally unfair and unbalanced that, currently, some classes/builds are almost impossible to kill by other classes/builds. Adding new pvp types will not change this fact.
I could meet the same "unkillable" GWF in deathmatch pvp. Still will not be able to kill him 1v1, unless he makes a mistake or has lag, or something like that.
Try not to attack them when they are using unstoppable /Thread
The amount of morons I have going toe to toe against my GWF when I have popped unstoppable is hilarious, they then come to the forums QQing saying GWF are unkillable.
I have no issues killing GWF on my TR 99% of the time, it's a gear issue or a play issue no more no less.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
My complaint is that it is fundamentally unfair and unbalanced that, currently, some classes/builds are almost impossible to kill by other classes/builds. Adding new pvp types will not change this fact.
I could meet the same "unkillable" GWF in deathmatch pvp. Still will not be able to kill him 1v1, unless he makes a mistake or has lag, or something like that.
In the OP you mention that you rarely PVP. This is your issue. As a CW, I can hold a point (and possibly kill) a Sent GWF 1v1. It's a heck of a lot easier with another, specifically another CW or a TR.
A player can say, "I almost never run CN, but the two times I tried, it was really hard and I died. Please nerf CN."
This is a L2P issue, plain and simple. Two players can burn down a Sent so fast, and one well geared CW or TR can do it solo. Join a strong PVP guild and learn from the players there.
I think the PvE portion of GG would make a nice map for more open PvP. Each faction starts on either side and you would have to not only battle the NPC's for the drops and such that you need but also the opposing factions players. That would revitalize GG as well.
That's actually an completely epic idea!
The stupid GG would actually got some sense and fun..
I still can't believe they did 20vs20 map where guild cannot queue together Whole GG is really laughable!
Two players can burn down a Sent so fast, and one well geared CW or TR can do it solo.
How would you know a well geared CW can solo kill a well geared Regen-Sent? You have never seen it, and never done it yourself.
I must have everything best in slot to solo kill a Regen-Sentinel GWF? Does that seem fair to you?
Best way I've found to break a Regen-Sent as a CW is to pop Oppressive Force first then hit all my Encounters. That stacks eight HV debuffs + 15% mitigation on my end. All I need is one other with me (TR, GF, GWF or CW) and they go down fast. BiS CWs claim to be able to do it solo, but I've never seen it.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
@persephone b/c of long cooldowns GF cannot come even close to permanent prone, and to even achieve more than ~4 seconds they need a daily so that only happens once every few fights.
Each decent GF from Mindflayer, if he gets to me and achieves the 1st prone, I can mash blink key combination uselessly until I'm dead. Cannot do anything, "disabled". I only know CWs, so I can't comment on how often this is possible, I just know that it's lethal 99% of the times to let them achieve first prone. And if I escape for some reason, maybe GF was bugged by some ally or something, my HP is gone 75%+.
Oh... and if I'm against a wall, then there's really no escape.
I'm not the type to ask for nerfs and stuff, but IMO each class at approximate levels of gear and skill should be able to own other classes 50%. If this percentage gets too far in one direction, it's time for devs to make adjustments. Smart devs would separately treat PvP and PvE, so they won't nerf GWFs for example because of PvP and make them even less desired for PvE. Smart devs would add PvP resilience gear. Smart devs would ... yeah.
I personally think they should use GWF destroyer-spec as the damage bar for each class.
That's 20k on the high end for crits on dailies, 12-14k for encounters.
Once you have a bar set for all damage, and your not seeing ice knives and lurker's strike doing such massive numbers, then we can worry about the natural defenses of range vs melee and defense vs. dodge.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
If you have nothing useful to add to this discussion, please leave.
I love pvp ... but not Neverwinter domination pvp.
Gauntlygrym pvp is very fun. In 20vs20, there are no unkillable players. One or two tanky players can not defend a single point very long. In domination pvp, with only 5 players per team, one or two tank players can more easily hold a point against the enemy.
Sangrine, would you acknowledged that Gear Score (GS) can play a significant role in whether or not you are able to take down or defend against the attacks of another player? I think these folks are trying to convey the importance of Gear Score vs. your request that the designers rebalance the game. It's nothing to get defensive over. Which is why the poster after you asked for or suggested that you post your gear score and that of the enemy GWF. In any discusion about balance, it is only fair to start with some basic information. What are your stats? What is your build? What is youg gear score? How do these things work against a particular enemy and his stats, build and gear score. It's not so simple to say: GWF need balance. I think that is an unfair statement.
Your post above also seems to distinguish between tactics employed in a 20v20 fight and a 5v5 fight. You, yourself, note that tactics can also play a factor in how a PvP fight will shake down. And you admit that maybe domination PvP just isn't for you. And that's okay. Not all the game mechanics are going to be fun for everyone. I'm not sure that requires a class rebalance, per say.
Consider, sometimes it might just be the tactic of a GWF that "can't be killed" to distract you long enough so that his less tanky party members can cap another area. The "goal" of 5v5 pvp domination is to reach 1000, not to kill that GWF. Don't let your inability to get him down distract you from the ultimate goal.
Each decent GF from Mindflayer, if he gets to me and achieves the 1st prone, I can mash blink key combination uselessly until I'm dead. Cannot do anything, "disabled". I only know CWs, so I can't comment on how often this is possible, I just know that it's lethal 99% of the times to let them achieve first prone. And if I escape for some reason, maybe GF was bugged by some ally or something, my HP is gone 75%+.
Oh... and if I'm against a wall, then there's really no escape.
I'm not the type to ask for nerfs and stuff, but IMO each class at approximate levels of gear and skill should be able to own other classes 50%. If this percentage gets too far in one direction, it's time for devs to make adjustments. Smart devs would separately treat PvP and PvE, so they won't nerf GWFs for example because of PvP and make them even less desired for PvE. Smart devs would add PvP resilience gear. Smart devs would ... yeah.
Prone, no escape, these are common attributes that any melee unit in any form of D&D has. Certain death is certain if you want to go melee with a melee unit. D&D isn't balanced so there's that. As it is anymore class balance and we will all be playing the same exact toon, its close already. These cookie cutter toons suck. Need more character diversity , not more balance rendering everyone the same.
Oh, as a Sent GWF, here's the close approximation of my thoughts when I see other classes:
CW: "Aw, hell. Gonna have to chase him down. C'mon, sprint. ****, he teleported. Sprint again, and TAKEDOWN. ****, teleport. Wait till takedown recharges, sprint again! Flourish, takedown, IBS! YES. ****, he teleported. Oh, and there are his friends. Run, run, run! **** an ice knife. Stand up, pop unstoppable, find the nearest friendly!"
TR: "Is he attacking me? Yes? ****, find someone else to attack. He's just going to kite me till his buddies arrive."
TR: "He's attacking my buddy? Is ITC up? MWAHAHAH ... takedown, IBS, Flourish, and let's hit hope he doesn't pop ITC and run off because I need one more run of encounter powers!"
GWF: "Is there anybody else around to fight? No? ****, lets wait till he pops unstoppable, then kite him till it drops and I can get a takedown in. Yawn. This fight is taking too long."
GF: "Is there anybody else around to fight? No? ****. Hit him a few times, and run to my nearest allies."
GF: "Is he attacking somebody else? Yes? TAKEDOWN on the back of the head! ****, it didn't knock him down because the lag showed him facing one way when he was actually turned a little to the left, and I didn't get the hit on that little 10% of area that the block doesn't cover. I'll wait to hit him till the CW chokes him!"
DC: "This sucks. All he's going to do is keep knocking me back and healing himself. DC is so OP."
Any combination of the above: "Well, hopefully I can kite and pop enough unstoppables and pvp pots till my friends arrive. Yes, the golems have spawned, I'll run in the middle of them and give myself a breath."
P.S. Teammates always seem to arrive about 16 seconds too late, if you ask me.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
Wanna see my CWs thoughts?
- GWF, geared, shiny armor/wep. effects: "****. I hope I can kite it 10 secs. I'll contest the point at sacrifice. Maybe I get a lucky IK crit after a few lucky debuffs. OMG, now his GF/TR friend is her as well, like I'm some hard to kill target lol". Death. GWF no armor effects and stuff: "Oh well, tough luck for him. I bet he doesn't play the class good either, poor guy, stumbled into PvP. Let's just keep him away for safety, just in case."
- GF geared: "Nooo, I wasted another encounter on the block, I was sure he had it down, wth... he gonna intercept my <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> now, ouch this is gonna hurt, freeze ray please work faster, aha, entangled, enfeebled, IK up, boom, wait WTF?!?! Deflected... good waste of a daily.
- TR geared: "watch... watch... look around... taking damage, taking damage **** should have taken some AoE to make this guy get out of stealth already, it's endless, knives, knives knives on my pretty <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Blink. Dodged - hah! Another dodge, lol, I'm on top, wait... wthh... there was another TR that came to help, commmmonnn..." Or: "I'll rush to middle to help, OK, gogogo, wait, wtf... I'm dead... some TR was waiting just before the point, nooo...".
- Decent CW: "I'll hunt this guy down. I bet I'm luckier than him with my crits, OK, he doesn't see me, debuffed, Icy Rays of doom, almost dead, die already, oh noes, now I'm entangled, enfeebled, I can feel the IK of doom coming right up, hah , dodged, **** his SF popped and he drank a pot, hide to wait for my encounters to become available, OK I Chill Stroke him, hehe he's mine now, nooo the TR stole the kill, common...". Or: "OK, frozen, when is this **** gonna wear off. Somebody save me already gonna die soon, aww common, crit crit crit, I know you have a Perfect Vorpal, way too OP, ****, I'll get you next time... maybe...".
- DC: "finally something I can test my spells on. Aha, almost dead. Wait, his SF popped, OMG, this guy has a Perfect and he potted up, now he's back to 100% and his friends are here, this is ****...".
When it comes to ungeared people there's not much I can say. I detest killing them, it's hugely unfair and I know they hate me when I do it, especially when it's a one-shot unavoidable Icy Rays thing. They shouldn't be in the same arena with geared people, end of story, just as I with my mostly R6s/normal vorpal shouldn't be in the same arena with the guys having perfects and R8-10s.
You guys must fight Lemonade stand premades 98% of the time huh? Honestly how often do you run into the absolute geared to the teeth GWF that takes 2 to kill? How often do you get the 7 Tene TR with 30k HP? Maybe I'm just unlucky but when I Q I get the destroyer GWF's that melt in 2 seconds or the cookie cutter LB/IS TR's that I dodge and **** in seconds once their ItC fades. You guys post your highlight reel of BiS enemy fights as if it happens every time you Q...
I have one of every class and I enjoy doing premade's and solo Q'ing with all of them, I play PvP b/c I enjoy it and if I run into good players then awesome, I actually get a challenge.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
before you post, list all your party GS which includes you and the GS of the GWF you are trying to kill. LOL.
edit: Reason, ive seen so many 7kgs trying to kill 13-14kgs. gwf and if they failed, they come crying here in the forums and i hope you are not one of them since high GS other class have no complain against gwf. @_@
I am one of those Sent Tene GWFs, also haev a TR with Perf Vorp and a GF with GTEs as well. I play with only very geared people and I have to agree, the build needs a tone down.
The easy solution:
Give LESS determination upon taking damage, give MORE determination from DEALING damage. Also, remove the +1800/+1600 HP bonus from Titan/Scrappers and give +450/+400 defense respectively.
Problem solved.
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kaoswpBanned Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 144Bounty Hunter
edited October 2013
Really OP? I have a CW that is not fully build I am can sometimes 1v1 sent GWFs. If there is another person kiting him, I will take him down no problem. The problem here is that you suck. HV Mage, Permastealth TR, there is a really powerful build for each class. A full HV CW can take GWFs 1v1 and win. So stop crying and get better.
Sent GWF is only unkillable if someone is dumb enough to stand in melee range and let it use restoring strike. Just stay away from him and slowly work him down, bringing extra people doesn't help, it just lets the GWF use unstoppable more often, which has a self heal, and gives them more targets to use restoring strike on.
Oh, as a Sent GWF, here's the close approximation of my thoughts when I see other classes:
CW: "Aw, hell. Gonna have to chase him down. C'mon, sprint. ****, he teleported. Sprint again, and TAKEDOWN. ****, teleport. Wait till takedown recharges, sprint again! Flourish, takedown, IBS! YES. ****, he teleported. Oh, and there are his friends. Run, run, run! **** an ice knife. Stand up, pop unstoppable, find the nearest friendly!"
TR: "Is he attacking me? Yes? ****, find someone else to attack. He's just going to kite me till his buddies arrive."
TR: "He's attacking my buddy? Is ITC up? MWAHAHAH ... takedown, IBS, Flourish, and let's hit hope he doesn't pop ITC and run off because I need one more run of encounter powers!"
GWF: "Is there anybody else around to fight? No? ****, lets wait till he pops unstoppable, then kite him till it drops and I can get a takedown in. Yawn. This fight is taking too long."
GF: "Is there anybody else around to fight? No? ****. Hit him a few times, and run to my nearest allies."
GF: "Is he attacking somebody else? Yes? TAKEDOWN on the back of the head! ****, it didn't knock him down because the lag showed him facing one way when he was actually turned a little to the left, and I didn't get the hit on that little 10% of area that the block doesn't cover. I'll wait to hit him till the CW chokes him!"
DC: "This sucks. All he's going to do is keep knocking me back and healing himself. DC is so OP."
Any combination of the above: "Well, hopefully I can kite and pop enough unstoppables and pvp pots till my friends arrive. Yes, the golems have spawned, I'll run in the middle of them and give myself a breath."
P.S. Teammates always seem to arrive about 16 seconds too late, if you ask me.
I have to say this really is not accurate... Here is the truth.
CW: "Oh yay, very squishy target. USe Roar, then sprint to Takedown, at will him when he gets up to blink, Stunning flourish And even if damage doesnt hit, he is still stunned. Just took about 10-15k damage btw and has 5k HP left. Oh hey Roar is back! Roar for an interrupt and repeat.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7BBsF_LD7M0#t=689 See this video from a CW perspective... He cant even kill me and I wasnt even using roar here OR daily which would have been PURE GG, hence why i didnt use them.
TR: Is he attacking me? Oh because I cant even tell because he is doing no damage... Oh whats that? He just did his first two at wills setting up a flurry? Oh I can hold shift and move 3 feet away from him and its a full miss... Whats that? He has ITC up? Eh, ill kite him for 3 seconds then takedown IBS Flourish him till he is dead....
GWF: Oh wow another Sent GWF with regen... "hey man this is boring lets just sit for the rest of this pre vs pre match" Which just proves the point that Unstoppable+Regen+Sent = no 1 person can kill you.... PERIOD.
NON-Sent GWF: "WTF are you even playing... just leave bro cause your worthless"
GF: Oh you can stun me? Well I can stun you too! Cycle stuns (takedown /roar/flourish) and unstoppable so he rarely gets in rotations... Oh and dont worry because even if he does, your unstoppable AND regen will out heal his damage... So no worries even if your bad.
DC: Eh, see "Sent GWF" for the same reference... we can spam until our fingers fall of, but neither of us will die... lets save ourselves the Dr. Bill from carpal tunnel and just sit instead.
Sent GWF NEEDS a nerf... Regen+Unstop+high HP and even lifedrinker is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> OP and even if your bad, it takes 2 to kil lyou. PERIOD.
Sent GWF spec with just at 30K health & 6 greater Tene enchants = about 6k damage every 20 soconds or so (960 average * 6 without debuffs).
Taking Tene enchants out of the equation...
Considering that every well geared Sent GWF is running at least 30K health, will get a full (double stack) determination bar when they lose about half of that health, will probably be regening 15% of their total health bar each time they activate unstopable (T1 PVP set > T2 sets), and will be running some combination of life steal/regen possibly with a side of LifeStealer Weapon enchant....yea anyone saying a CW or TR is goiong to beat one of these (assuming the GWF isn't one of the worst players on the planet) has no clue what they are talking about.
Can't speak to the GF vs GWF matchup, but any other class is going to get owned & owned hard agaist an equally geared GWF....with the exception of a tankish speced DC which is incapable of killing anything, and relies on survival & its team for kills.
If you want to see what a GWF is capable of, get one to 60, copy it to test, copy a whole bunch of enchants & wards to test with multiple char copies, combine the enchants up to purples, gear your GWF, and go and heard up entire zones & laugh at your survivability while you kill them. - Yes I did say entire zones. Between Unstopable regen & life steal & regen, you basically don't die unless you just sit there and do nothing. This survivability carries over to PVP, where a full sent build can still tear up the health bar with ease on anyting shy of a GF.
Sent GWF spec with just at 30K health & 6 greater Tene enchants = about 6k damage every 20 soconds or so (960 average * 6 without debuffs).
Taking Tene enchants out of the equation...
Considering that every well geared Sent GWF is running at least 30K health, will get a full (double stack) determination bar when they lose about half of that health, will probably be regening 15% of their total health bar each time they activate unstopable (T1 PVP set > T2 sets), and will be running some combination of life steal/regen possibly with a side of LifeStealer Weapon enchant....yea anyone saying a CW or TR is goiong to beat one of these (assuming the GWF isn't one of the worst players on the planet) has no clue what they are talking about.
Can't speak to the GF vs GWF matchup, but any other class is going to get owned & owned hard agaist an equally geared GWF....with the exception of a tankish speced DC which is incapable of killing anything, and relies on survival & its team for kills.
If you want to see what a GWF is capable of, get one to 60, copy it to test, copy a whole bunch of enchants & wards to test with multiple char copies, combine the enchants up to purples, gear your GWF, and go and heard up entire zones & laugh at your survivability while you kill them. - Yes I did say entire zones. Between Unstopable regen & life steal & regen, you basically don't die unless you just sit there and do nothing. This survivability carries over to PVP, where a full sent build can still tear up the health bar with ease on anyting shy of a GF.
1000000% agree, see my post above and the video links prove this exactly...
People that SAY they can 1v1 a good sent... are just plain dumb the build has WAY too much synergy... Either it needs to be nerfed for the regen stat does but SOMETHING needs to... The fact that 1 DPS opriented class and player with good skill cant out damage SELF heals off a tank class.... Thats a problem..
Throw tene in the mix and now you have an unkillable character that spits out amazing damage from tene....
Comments
I'll go out on a limb and state that there are certain PvP game types that favour one class over the others. Balancing for one game type will break others. This has already happened with changes made for PvP adversely affected PvE.
Yes, I'm aware that Domination is the only game in town at the moment. What I'm saying is that you're complaining about the wrong thing.
What is the right thing to complain about?
Yes, this is why I think we're not going to see a deathmatch mode. There is always going to have to be some sort of objective (CTF, king of the hill etc) because all of their balancing to this point has been based on objective based PvP. Sent GWF would be worthless in deathmatch b/c while he's hard to kill he also does <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> damage, same with DC, good for survivability but now kills are the name of the game. It would alienate too many builds and classes, so they will probably stick to objective based game modes, which are more fun than just kill everyone IMO. Deathmatch is the mode that would draw all the players that have no strategy or tactic other than kill player that's in front of me, and strategy and tactics are what set one premade above another.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Right click on player send a challenge, anywhere anytime, for any reason.... done. done.
maps in this game are too little for open world pvp
The fact that the only PvP type available is Domination.
Can you elaborate a little i dont understand that. How are maps to small for me to right click a player and send a challenge? I cant understand how that effects anything at all.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
My complaint is that it is fundamentally unfair and unbalanced that, currently, some classes/builds are almost impossible to kill by other classes/builds. Adding new pvp types will not change this fact.
I could meet the same "unkillable" GWF in deathmatch pvp. Still will not be able to kill him 1v1, unless he makes a mistake or has lag, or something like that.
Try not to attack them when they are using unstoppable /Thread
The amount of morons I have going toe to toe against my GWF when I have popped unstoppable is hilarious, they then come to the forums QQing saying GWF are unkillable.
I have no issues killing GWF on my TR 99% of the time, it's a gear issue or a play issue no more no less.
In the OP you mention that you rarely PVP. This is your issue. As a CW, I can hold a point (and possibly kill) a Sent GWF 1v1. It's a heck of a lot easier with another, specifically another CW or a TR.
A player can say, "I almost never run CN, but the two times I tried, it was really hard and I died. Please nerf CN."
This is a L2P issue, plain and simple. Two players can burn down a Sent so fast, and one well geared CW or TR can do it solo. Join a strong PVP guild and learn from the players there.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
The way to kill them 1 v 1? - You don't.
Adjust strategy and ignore him unless he is back capping. Killing him is easy when 3+ folks show up to clear home node and head back to mid.
Or you can send the GF and they can square off at home node for the entire match.
That's actually an completely epic idea!
The stupid GG would actually got some sense and fun..
I still can't believe they did 20vs20 map where guild cannot queue together
Agreed. Alot of classes can kill us unless they're running with 7-8k gs lol.
I'm 12.5k gs sent
How would you know a well geared CW can solo kill a well geared Regen-Sent? You have never seen it, and never done it yourself.
I must have everything best in slot to solo kill a Regen-Sentinel GWF? Does that seem fair to you?
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?489101-Regeneration-needs-to-be-toned-down-blue-gear-better-then-purple&p=6103001&viewfull=1#post6103001
Each decent GF from Mindflayer, if he gets to me and achieves the 1st prone, I can mash blink key combination uselessly until I'm dead. Cannot do anything, "disabled". I only know CWs, so I can't comment on how often this is possible, I just know that it's lethal 99% of the times to let them achieve first prone. And if I escape for some reason, maybe GF was bugged by some ally or something, my HP is gone 75%+.
Oh... and if I'm against a wall, then there's really no escape.
I'm not the type to ask for nerfs and stuff, but IMO each class at approximate levels of gear and skill should be able to own other classes 50%. If this percentage gets too far in one direction, it's time for devs to make adjustments. Smart devs would separately treat PvP and PvE, so they won't nerf GWFs for example because of PvP and make them even less desired for PvE. Smart devs would add PvP resilience gear. Smart devs would ... yeah.
That's 20k on the high end for crits on dailies, 12-14k for encounters.
Once you have a bar set for all damage, and your not seeing ice knives and lurker's strike doing such massive numbers, then we can worry about the natural defenses of range vs melee and defense vs. dodge.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Your post above also seems to distinguish between tactics employed in a 20v20 fight and a 5v5 fight. You, yourself, note that tactics can also play a factor in how a PvP fight will shake down. And you admit that maybe domination PvP just isn't for you. And that's okay. Not all the game mechanics are going to be fun for everyone. I'm not sure that requires a class rebalance, per say.
Consider, sometimes it might just be the tactic of a GWF that "can't be killed" to distract you long enough so that his less tanky party members can cap another area. The "goal" of 5v5 pvp domination is to reach 1000, not to kill that GWF. Don't let your inability to get him down distract you from the ultimate goal.
A clan on Lineage2 and Neverwinter
Prone, no escape, these are common attributes that any melee unit in any form of D&D has. Certain death is certain if you want to go melee with a melee unit. D&D isn't balanced so there's that. As it is anymore class balance and we will all be playing the same exact toon, its close already. These cookie cutter toons suck. Need more character diversity , not more balance rendering everyone the same.
CW: "Aw, hell. Gonna have to chase him down. C'mon, sprint. ****, he teleported. Sprint again, and TAKEDOWN. ****, teleport. Wait till takedown recharges, sprint again! Flourish, takedown, IBS! YES. ****, he teleported. Oh, and there are his friends. Run, run, run! **** an ice knife. Stand up, pop unstoppable, find the nearest friendly!"
TR: "Is he attacking me? Yes? ****, find someone else to attack. He's just going to kite me till his buddies arrive."
TR: "He's attacking my buddy? Is ITC up? MWAHAHAH ... takedown, IBS, Flourish, and let's hit hope he doesn't pop ITC and run off because I need one more run of encounter powers!"
GWF: "Is there anybody else around to fight? No? ****, lets wait till he pops unstoppable, then kite him till it drops and I can get a takedown in. Yawn. This fight is taking too long."
GF: "Is there anybody else around to fight? No? ****. Hit him a few times, and run to my nearest allies."
GF: "Is he attacking somebody else? Yes? TAKEDOWN on the back of the head! ****, it didn't knock him down because the lag showed him facing one way when he was actually turned a little to the left, and I didn't get the hit on that little 10% of area that the block doesn't cover. I'll wait to hit him till the CW chokes him!"
DC: "This sucks. All he's going to do is keep knocking me back and healing himself. DC is so OP."
Any combination of the above: "Well, hopefully I can kite and pop enough unstoppables and pvp pots till my friends arrive. Yes, the golems have spawned, I'll run in the middle of them and give myself a breath."
P.S. Teammates always seem to arrive about 16 seconds too late, if you ask me.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
A clan on Lineage2 and Neverwinter
- GWF, geared, shiny armor/wep. effects: "****. I hope I can kite it 10 secs. I'll contest the point at sacrifice. Maybe I get a lucky IK crit after a few lucky debuffs. OMG, now his GF/TR friend is her as well, like I'm some hard to kill target lol". Death. GWF no armor effects and stuff: "Oh well, tough luck for him. I bet he doesn't play the class good either, poor guy, stumbled into PvP. Let's just keep him away for safety, just in case."
- GF geared: "Nooo, I wasted another encounter on the block, I was sure he had it down, wth... he gonna intercept my <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> now, ouch this is gonna hurt, freeze ray please work faster, aha, entangled, enfeebled, IK up, boom, wait WTF?!?! Deflected... good waste of a daily.
- TR geared: "watch... watch... look around... taking damage, taking damage **** should have taken some AoE to make this guy get out of stealth already, it's endless, knives, knives knives on my pretty <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Blink. Dodged - hah! Another dodge, lol, I'm on top, wait... wthh... there was another TR that came to help, commmmonnn..." Or: "I'll rush to middle to help, OK, gogogo, wait, wtf... I'm dead... some TR was waiting just before the point, nooo...".
- Decent CW: "I'll hunt this guy down. I bet I'm luckier than him with my crits, OK, he doesn't see me, debuffed, Icy Rays of doom, almost dead, die already, oh noes, now I'm entangled, enfeebled, I can feel the IK of doom coming right up, hah , dodged, **** his SF popped and he drank a pot, hide to wait for my encounters to become available, OK I Chill Stroke him, hehe he's mine now, nooo the TR stole the kill, common...". Or: "OK, frozen, when is this **** gonna wear off. Somebody save me already gonna die soon, aww common, crit crit crit, I know you have a Perfect Vorpal, way too OP, ****, I'll get you next time... maybe...".
- DC: "finally something I can test my spells on. Aha, almost dead. Wait, his SF popped, OMG, this guy has a Perfect and he potted up, now he's back to 100% and his friends are here, this is ****...".
When it comes to ungeared people there's not much I can say. I detest killing them, it's hugely unfair and I know they hate me when I do it, especially when it's a one-shot unavoidable Icy Rays thing. They shouldn't be in the same arena with geared people, end of story, just as I with my mostly R6s/normal vorpal shouldn't be in the same arena with the guys having perfects and R8-10s.
I have one of every class and I enjoy doing premade's and solo Q'ing with all of them, I play PvP b/c I enjoy it and if I run into good players then awesome, I actually get a challenge.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I am one of those Sent Tene GWFs, also haev a TR with Perf Vorp and a GF with GTEs as well. I play with only very geared people and I have to agree, the build needs a tone down.
The easy solution:
Give LESS determination upon taking damage, give MORE determination from DEALING damage. Also, remove the +1800/+1600 HP bonus from Titan/Scrappers and give +450/+400 defense respectively.
Problem solved.
I have to say this really is not accurate... Here is the truth.
CW: "Oh yay, very squishy target. USe Roar, then sprint to Takedown, at will him when he gets up to blink, Stunning flourish And even if damage doesnt hit, he is still stunned. Just took about 10-15k damage btw and has 5k HP left. Oh hey Roar is back! Roar for an interrupt and repeat.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7BBsF_LD7M0#t=689 See this video from a CW perspective... He cant even kill me and I wasnt even using roar here OR daily which would have been PURE GG, hence why i didnt use them.
Look at what his Ice Knife does to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7BBsF_LD7M0#t=778
TR: Is he attacking me? Oh because I cant even tell because he is doing no damage... Oh whats that? He just did his first two at wills setting up a flurry? Oh I can hold shift and move 3 feet away from him and its a full miss... Whats that? He has ITC up? Eh, ill kite him for 3 seconds then takedown IBS Flourish him till he is dead....
GWF: Oh wow another Sent GWF with regen... "hey man this is boring lets just sit for the rest of this pre vs pre match" Which just proves the point that Unstoppable+Regen+Sent = no 1 person can kill you.... PERIOD.
NON-Sent GWF: "WTF are you even playing... just leave bro cause your worthless"
GF: Oh you can stun me? Well I can stun you too! Cycle stuns (takedown /roar/flourish) and unstoppable so he rarely gets in rotations... Oh and dont worry because even if he does, your unstoppable AND regen will out heal his damage... So no worries even if your bad.
DC: Eh, see "Sent GWF" for the same reference... we can spam until our fingers fall of, but neither of us will die... lets save ourselves the Dr. Bill from carpal tunnel and just sit instead.
Sent GWF NEEDS a nerf... Regen+Unstop+high HP and even lifedrinker is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> OP and even if your bad, it takes 2 to kil lyou. PERIOD.
You need a temporary forum ban for intentional flaming.
And if you flame me, in game, I will report you there too.
Taking Tene enchants out of the equation...
Considering that every well geared Sent GWF is running at least 30K health, will get a full (double stack) determination bar when they lose about half of that health, will probably be regening 15% of their total health bar each time they activate unstopable (T1 PVP set > T2 sets), and will be running some combination of life steal/regen possibly with a side of LifeStealer Weapon enchant....yea anyone saying a CW or TR is goiong to beat one of these (assuming the GWF isn't one of the worst players on the planet) has no clue what they are talking about.
Can't speak to the GF vs GWF matchup, but any other class is going to get owned & owned hard agaist an equally geared GWF....with the exception of a tankish speced DC which is incapable of killing anything, and relies on survival & its team for kills.
If you want to see what a GWF is capable of, get one to 60, copy it to test, copy a whole bunch of enchants & wards to test with multiple char copies, combine the enchants up to purples, gear your GWF, and go and heard up entire zones & laugh at your survivability while you kill them. - Yes I did say entire zones. Between Unstopable regen & life steal & regen, you basically don't die unless you just sit there and do nothing. This survivability carries over to PVP, where a full sent build can still tear up the health bar with ease on anyting shy of a GF.
1000000% agree, see my post above and the video links prove this exactly...
People that SAY they can 1v1 a good sent... are just plain dumb the build has WAY too much synergy... Either it needs to be nerfed for the regen stat does but SOMETHING needs to... The fact that 1 DPS opriented class and player with good skill cant out damage SELF heals off a tank class.... Thats a problem..
Throw tene in the mix and now you have an unkillable character that spits out amazing damage from tene....