What's the point of clearing dungeon out of every trash mob?
- playing the game
- having the content lasting a few months - the intended duration.
Now, i'd like some exploit fans answering some basic questions, like, what's the point of getting billions of ADs and epic gear if you only skip every possible fight? That's really pointless, you could do all exploits in green lvl 50 gear, it would make zero difference, and your characters wouldn't be less powerul. Since the core of this game is PvE, i'm curious to see what's the answer.
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Nobody yet said any valid point for clearing 100% of dungeon (besides sasheria suggestion from page 15), what's the point in doing that? Scraps of copper? Useless green/blue items? Wasting time to have a chance to get an epic item?
Fully clearing dungeon once sure is fun but doing it 5-6th time can be boring and the reward is same no matter how many mobs you'll kill on the way.
So here's the question: What's the point of clearing dungeon out of every trash mob?
I dunno, maybe PLAYING THE GAME THE WAY IT WAS DESIGNED?
simple solution to skipping. Make campfires clickable to activate ability to respawn there. Cannot be clicked if you have aggro.
If you are good enough to run by all mobs and fight them at fire, then no problem.
But really, stop blaming each other. The fault lies with the developers. There is no excuse for them to allow well known exploitable content to remain on Live server (for months in most cases)- it should be taken down immediately when discovered.
The answer is not to allow exploitable content to remain Live and put the onus on the player to "follow the rules". The answer is for the developers to take pride in their product and thoroughly test it before release - and then do the responsible thing and remove it from Live if found exploitable.
However, in the case of this game, its obvious that corporate profits supercede exploit free and quality product.
simple solution to skipping. Make campfires clickable to activate ability to respawn there. Cannot be clicked if you have aggro.
If you are good enough to run by all mobs and fight them at fire, then no problem.
But really, stop blaming each other. The fault lies with the developers. There is no excuse for them to allow well known exploitable content to remain on Live server (for months in most cases)- it should be taken down immediately when discovered.
The answer is not to allow exploitable content to remain Live and put the onus on the player to "follow the rules". The answer is for the developers to take pride in their product and thoroughly test it before release - and then do the responsible thing and remove it if found exploitable.
Of course it's up to the devs, but instead, the priorities aren't fixing content, it's producing new and exploitable content as fast as they can. Malabog's castle is full of exploits. Really. There are some improvements, but it's far from being clean.
What they have to do to fix exploits is:
- changing the quest design inside dungeons, maybe porting back the malabog tech to make extra npc packs you didn't clear spawning inside the boss room
- fixing some specific exploit mechanics on a case by case basis, like boss suicide spots, some invisible walls to prevent killing bosses too easily, etc.
- fixing the AI to prevent NPC suicides and NPC losing aggro on players exploiting these very friendly mechanics.
I think the first element should be quite trivial, the last d one, though, would require a lot more work, but at some point, it has to be done if they want the game to last and to be enjoyable for the vast majority of the (new) players.
- playing the game
- having the content lasting a few months - the intended duration.
Now, i'd like some exploit fans answering some basic questions, like, what's the point of getting billions of ADs and epic gear if you only skip every possible fight? That's really pointless, you could do all exploits in green lvl 50 gear, it would make zero difference, and your characters wouldn't be less powerul. Since the core of this game is PvE, i'm curious to see what's the answer.
To get to T2 I had to do T1 dungeons first, imagine my frustration doing it countless of times and not getting anything (sometimes because of roll, sometimes because CW items didn't drop) and when doing T1 I was clearing 100% of dungeon with team.
When I finally got GS of 8.3k I started doing T2 and guess what? I was underpowered to do most of them (except PK which must be easiest).
Now that I have enough GS to do CN I'm still underpowered, so I need AD to buy enchants and wards and I would like to get it fast so I can do (and finish) CN (and MC) without failure.
Some may exploit to get thoose "billions" AD you mentioned but I, personally, am trying not to waste time on something I already done several times.
I dunno, maybe PLAYING THE GAME THE WAY IT WAS DESIGNED?
If it would be more enjoyable than skipping few pointless battles then it would be tempting, right now doing same dungeon several times (100% clear) is annoying, especially when at the very end team realises that we can't kill final boss (imagine spending 1.5h on dungeon and not getting "anything" from it, sounds like fun?).
- playing the game
- having the content lasting a few months - the intended duration.
Now, i'd like some exploit fans answering some basic questions, like, what's the point of getting billions of ADs and epic gear if you only skip every possible fight? That's really pointless, you could do all exploits in green lvl 50 gear, it would make zero difference, and your characters wouldn't be less powerul. Since the core of this game is PvE, i'm curious to see what's the answer.
Im not really a skipper. Sometimes when I pug if group lead wants to Ill follow. I prefer to do full clears for fun. If I really cared about skipping Id just leave group immediately once its established that's what theyre doing.
They are hoarding AD, because they understand how F2P MMOs work. They revolve around the cash shop. They understand as the game progresses PWE will continuously update their Cash Shops more rapidly then they do fixes to other things (this is partially due to different teams working on diff things, and bugs/exploits/glitches require more work/time to review the code and then implement it properly). These ingame currency to CS currency converters (AD/ZEN Exchange) work as a double edged sword. It allows F2P players to play game free. But then farmers/exploiters/bots also have an easy way to convert to currency that would otherwise cost real money. It all revolves around the cash shop.
F2P games however many times they tell you the opposite; will give you slight advantage in-game with different things, some is convience others are straight power. Also just for prestige of having a lot of CS items. I posted this in a previous long ago topic. They are hoarding AD, waiting till more powerful things come along in boxes or in CS. (Tenebrous/will see what bronzewood can do/and that other life gaining one/more powerful mounts - faster/combat mounts maybe/more powerful companions/augments).
Once you have a good amount/I mean a good amount. You can contiously play the auction house or AD/Zen exchange.
They are doing it because F2P games revolve around the Cash Shops, they are prepping themselves for future sales; and more powerful items to be released in CS. Or to set themselves to play the AH or Zen/AD exchange game. It has very little to do gear.
Some people may be going along for the ride for gear for alts or mains also. Not all these people are intentionally doing it, some are. You cant lump everyone together. But these people understand F2P games revolve around the cash shops.
But again you cant lump them all together. Some are doing it just to gear more quickly. But the really heavy runners are doing it in preparation for the cash shop.
TL;DR - AD for Continuous cash shop updates, don't lump all together. Heavy runners doing it to prepare for CS. Some just for gear.
Premise of the topic title is misleading. Exploiting/skipping does not equal failure of dungeon.
PS in no way bashing PWE on CS. It is how they make a living.
To get to T2 I had to do T1 dungeons first, imagine my frustration doing it countless of times and not getting anything (sometimes because of roll, sometimes because CW items didn't drop) and when doing T1 I was clearing 100% of dungeon with team.
When I finally got GS of 8.3k I started doing T2 and guess what? I was underpowered to do most of them (except PK which must be easiest).
Now that I have enough GS to do CN I'm still underpowered, so I need AD to buy enchants and wards and I would like to get it fast so I can do (and finish) CN (and MC) without failure.
Some may exploit to get thoose "billions" AD you mentioned but I, personally, am trying not to waste time on something I already done several times.
If it would be more enjoyable than skipping few pointless battles then it would be tempting, right now doing same dungeon several times (100% clear) is annoying, especially when at the very end team realises that we can't kill final boss (imagine spending 1.5h on dungeon and not getting "anything" from it, sounds like fun?).
So you have summed up several issues:
1. Your GS is very low -- this can be fixed with unicorn seals to get into T2 which then you can acquire drake items and eventually beat these "hard T2 final bosses"
2. You aren't playing with very good players
3. You cheat because you can't beat the content legitimately
LOL!!!!! if you were battling your way to kill a dragon, and you could go around a big mean dude that BLANKETS the floor with red circles that 1 hit you.... OR fight him, what would you do?? I am talking real life here... you know like LARPing or some HAMSTER.....
I know my HAMSTER is going around the circles..... and I know yours is too... no matter what HAMSTER you say....
that being said... I am pretty sure dodging a fight IS how the game is designed..
Dodging trash because you don't have to pull it (ex the trash is far enough away you can walk past it without aggro'ing it) vs cheating to avoid the trash.
Again the problem is summed up by several posters - the game is too hard so therefore you have to cheat. I understand.
As I'm sure has been said before, and as will need to be said again and again, there are different departments of development within each game. One group focuses on bugs and gameplay. Another focuses on store items. Another focuses on new content. It is a bit unfair to accuse the company of not having anyone working on something just because you don't see it fast enough.
Kildrak Gemviper - 60 GF
Void Reaper - 60 CW
Eliza Trickfoot - 60 TR
Scarlet Maiden - 60 DC
Timmy Orc-Bane - 60 GWF
Ranger Jo - 20 HR
- playing the game
- having the content lasting a few months - the intended duration.
Now, i'd like some exploit fans answering some basic questions, like, what's the point of getting billions of ADs and epic gear if you only skip every possible fight? That's really pointless, you could do all exploits in green lvl 50 gear, it would make zero difference, and your characters wouldn't be less powerul. Since the core of this game is PvE, i'm curious to see what's the answer.
you ask whats the point of getting millions?to show of that gear enchants like a peacock, kill in pvp, parade on a stag,be better than everybody else, all online games are abouth ego.you named your toon god dude.
and there was only one exploit in dungeon so far pirate king in the beggining of the game....so no exploits there,and one in quest.so only 2 exploits for banning and only one of those was for perma bann so not sure what are you talking abouth.what exploits?
you seem to know to much abouth exploits...never heard of dungeon "exploit" that can be done in green.this is very real exploit then and they should check you out.how you know about this stuff.
i will report you what is to much is to much,exploits in green.
1. Your GS is very low -- this can be fixed with unicorn seals to get into T2 which then you can acquire drake items and eventually beat these "hard T2 final bosses"
2. You aren't playing with very good players
3. You cheat because you can't beat the content legitimately
1. My GS is now 9.6k which should be enough for me to help beat bosses (I'm CW so my main role is to control adds) besides: beating the boss has nothing to do with skipping pointless trash mobs
2. That point is questionable
3. I "cheat" to avoid wasting time on something I already done several times
I just don't see fun in killing tons of trash meat over and over again just to get to the boss to get a chance of getting an item.
If there is a shortcut (and you don't get in trouble for using it) then
1 trash mob = 10 adds at final boss
for every 1% clear you get a better chance of getting higher loot or "more loot"
100% clear means everyone will get a personal drop
sub boss/mini boss - if left alone (skipped) they will provide a perma buff on the final boss AND help (buff don't go away even after the mini boss dies)
sub boss/mini boss left alive COULD introduce extra mechanics into the final fight - longer stun, random aoe damage, curse (take more damage) slower movement speed etc etc.
Trash mobs that are not killed CAN come and help the final boss (which can make a final fight even more difficult)
There has to be reward so maybe every sub boss defeated, you can get extra tokens (i.e. 1 boss = 1 token for loot, 4 bosses = 10 tokens. bonus given at the end of the run?
This will require that players cannot be booted by a single player. It has to be a group effort AND the booted player will STILL get rewarded for current participation (i.e. don't get lock out of loot of say 2 bosses out of 5 are defeated and still get a roll and 3 tokens.
Exploiting in games like this only creates a massive amount of d*bags, like half the morons in this thread, that just want to loot instead of enjoying the game, with those around the game ends up feeling like work. Is an issue and should be fixed, it affects the economy of legit players, and that includes exploitable bugs, shortcuts, bots and afk players.
I understand why the speed runners get bored with the dungeons. They run the same 3 dungeons 3 times a day every day for 2 or more weeks. If I did that I am sure I would get bored with them as well. I have a completely different play style. I have been playing for over 3 months and there are still some dungeons I haven't played the Epic version of yet. Instead of 3 dungeons per day, I may do 3 dungeons per week. I still enjoy some of the creative touches that the Devs have put in some the dungeons. Such as the puzzles in LotPK. Some of the side rooms have neat encounters, that I still enjoy. The speed runnners miss out on those, of course most of them are barely aware they exist, since they have never actually done a full exploration of any dungeon.
The way I see it, for speed runners it is an endless loop. The need to run the dungeon as quickly as possible in order to get the loot, so they can run the dungeon even quicker, so they can get better loot to run the dungeon quicker.... By the time they have gotten geared up they are bored and just want to finish the dungeon as fast as possible. I just don't understand that, what is point in getting the best gear if you never actually play the dungeon. So they have a pile of AD, what good does that do them, they already have the gear. I do agree with them about the rewards though that you do get from the dungeon, whether mob loot, boss loot, or DD chest loot. That could be made better and more rewarding, give a better feeling of accomplishment.
The exploits need to be removed, the bosses need to be reworked, and the rewards need to be made worthwhile. All of these fixes would most certainly please both sides of the debate.
The reason people can't kill karrundux legitly, is because they spent all their time in the other dungeons speed running and not learning their character's roles/powers/etc...
the players in my guild spent a lot of time learning how to do each dungeon. Those trash mobs you all so like to skip actually are a preview of many of the boss fights. For example the wolves and snowmen in FH, learn to fight those as a team, and first boss is easy to kill, same with pretty much all of the dungeons. As a group we slowly worked our way through pirates, frozen heart, temple of spider, spellplaque.. as we got better and got our t2 sets and rank 6, 7 enchants, we started clearing things faster. learning the spider queen fight probably took the longest, but once we mastered it (you have to know which powers work best for each fight) we moved on to karrundux and cn.
once they fix the skipping of boss fights and the suicides, the ones skipping the content will take them months to figure out how to actually play their characters to finish the dungeons. It will be quite funny and sad that these macked out characters can't kill probably the t1 bosses let alone the t2.
and karrundux is quite easy if you had been clearing the dungeons this entire time learning to work with your group and learning your characters better. most people just want to be at the top of the dps chart, when sometimes those boss fights require say a TR to utilize some powers that dont do damage in order to help out the team and stay alive.
there is a process that should be done in order to complete dungeons, clearing the trash is an essential part of that process.. so what if you dont get loot from them, learn from those fights so you aren't behind the 8 ball when you cant suicide the spider queen anymore, or cant skip the bosses in Fh... to say the ones that can run from campfire to campfire and skip the content are probably better players then most is just laughable. that takes no skill at all to make the spider queen suicide, or run past mobs in cn etc...
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
1. My GS is now 9.6k which should be enough for me to help beat bosses (I'm CW so my main role is to control adds) besides: beating the boss has nothing to do with skipping pointless trash mobs
2. That point is questionable
3. I "cheat" to avoid wasting time on something I already done several times
I just don't see fun in killing tons of trash meat over and over again just to get to the boss to get a chance of getting an item.
9.6K GS is really low for your class. Point #3 still stands, you cheat because you can't clear the content legitimately. In our guild, we can clear content faster than most people can cheat it. Why waste time running from campfire to campfire, dying over and over, then glitching the final boss? Complete joke.
The reason people can't kill karrundux legitly, is because they spent all their time in the other dungeons speed running and not learning their character's roles/powers/etc...
the players in my guild spent a lot of time learning how to do each dungeon. Those trash mobs you all so like to skip actually are a preview of many of the boss fights. For example the wolves and snowmen in FH, learn to fight those as a team, and first boss is easy to kill, same with pretty much all of the dungeons. As a group we slowly worked our way through pirates, frozen heart, temple of spider, spellplaque.. as we got better and got our t2 sets and rank 6, 7 enchants, we started clearing things faster. learning the spider queen fight probably took the longest, but once we mastered it (you have to know which powers work best for each fight) we moved on to karrundux and cn.
once they fix the skipping of boss fights and the suicides, the ones skipping the content will take them months to figure out how to actually play their characters to finish the dungeons. It will be quite funny and sad that these macked out characters can't kill probably the t1 bosses let alone the t2.
and karrundux is quite easy if you had been clearing the dungeons this entire time learning to work with your group and learning your characters better. most people just want to be at the top of the dps chart, when sometimes those boss fights require say a TR to utilize some powers that dont do damage in order to help out the team and stay alive.
there is a process that should be done in order to complete dungeons, clearing the trash is an essential part of that process.. so what if you dont get loot from them, learn from those fights so you aren't behind the 8 ball when you cant suicide the spider queen anymore, or cant skip the bosses in Fh... to say the ones that can run from campfire to campfire and skip the content are probably better players then most is just laughable. that takes no skill at all to make the spider queen suicide, or run past mobs in cn etc...
She is right. When they fix exploits (and they will)... I expect to see a mass exodus of weak cheating players. I'd rather play on a shard with 100 people that play legit than 10,000 cheaters.
She is right. When they fix exploits (and they will)... I expect to see a mass exodus of weak cheating players. I'd rather play on a shard with 100 people that play legit than 10,000 cheaters.
It simple: they tried to artifically prolong end-game by giving mobs extreme health pool, and dont try to tell me its fun to fight a group of mobs few minutes for two copper. This display one thing: masked lack of content
want to appear have more content then actually have -> increase health pools to boring values -> players finding ways around
plus, all the bosses are exactly the same: no-AI easy boss with overwhelming endless waves of adds, they need to be a bit creative. No wonder players became fed up with this policy.
9.6K GS is really low for your class. Point #3 still stands, you cheat because you can't clear the content legitimately. In our guild, we can clear content faster than most people can cheat it. Why waste time running from campfire to campfire, dying over and over, then glitching the final boss? Complete joke.
And why waste time killing same mobs over and over to get nothing out of it? Perhaps you (somehow) can do it faster, perhaps with team that has 13k+GS it is easy but first people needs that gear and on the way to get it killing thoose same mobs gets boring so running to campfires, exiting and returning to instance is faster and less annoying.
I have no idea how it can be fun to you doing same thing few times so everyone can get something out of it, I don't see it.
I'm not denying that using shortcuts and glitches to beat the game is bad but epic dungeons mechanics are broken.
1 trash mob = 10 adds at final boss
for every 1% clear you get a better chance of getting higher loot or "more loot"
100% clear means everyone will get a personal drop
sub boss/mini boss - if left alone (skipped) they will provide a perma buff on the final boss AND help (buff don't go away even after the mini boss dies)
sub boss/mini boss left alive COULD introduce extra mechanics into the final fight - longer stun, random aoe damage, curse (take more damage) slower movement speed etc etc.
Trash mobs that are not killed CAN come and help the final boss (which can make a final fight even more difficult)
This but instead of punishing people who just want to get to the boss(es) should get a choice at the begining of dungeon (some sort of NPC offering a shortcut) which allow them to teleport to the final campfire (or any boss). Of course it would come with penalty of lower (very low) drop of epic items and lower ammount of seals.
It really is the best suggestion to prevent using shortcuts in dungeons because it mostly rewards people (every member of party) for taking their time clearing the dungeon and ability to get to the boss instantly gives you upper hand if you're not sure about your group (or want to test tactics on particular boss); you could just skip to the final boss and see if they can do it, if so then start dungeon once again and clear it 100%
PS think of that running from campfire to campfire or reentering instance (and glitching boss) as a back door that developers left for players who gets bored by clearing same dungeon over and over again
PPS wondras is right
the players in my guild spent a lot of time learning how to do each dungeon.
And then came the 22nd August massive nerf of all the classes (ok, admittedly more massive for the classes that were already sub-par)
How relevant now is this nice knowledge that your Guild patiently stacked during all these weeks? Knowing how many adds you can handle in the final boss room when inside/outside the DC circle? What to put in your rotation for the first two bosses of this or that dungeon. How long you need to kite the mobs before your Daily is back?
Dust and memories, that's all what remains of what used to be a deep knowledge of your class and of the dungeons.
I still can't get behind the argument that the dungeons are boring so exploiting is the way to go. If you get bored by doing the same fights over and over, don't do them. Do something different. Another dungeon maybe, maybe even a T1 you havn't done in months or a dungeon you don't do so often. Maybe play a nice foundry for a change. After a few weeks of break it will be fun again.
Or play a different class. I have 3 Chars at 60 and each plays completly different. If i get bored tanking and hitting stuff with my sword, i play my DC. And if i get bored putting blue circles on the ground i play my CW and create black holes that could suck up entire universes. The same dungeon becomes a new experience.
And when i get bored of all of them, i might start leveling up a new class or shut down my PC. All this is no excuse for exploiting content. I just don't understand it.
And i agree, it's mainly up to the devs to fix this problem. It's emberassing that so many bugs and exploitable content is out there for months. And I think the lack of information does not help. They should at least put out some information, that they are really working hard to fix this. Maybe even some specific statement, what they are intending to do, even if it takes a while. In the "News&Annoncements"-Section are all sorts of news for upcoming things. New companions, new events and all sorts, but not one item adresses exploits and bugs. Something like this would also make it clear what is and what is not intended. If they said, they are trying to fix the campfire spawn exploit, it would be clear, that is not ment to be there.
All I am trying to say, DO SOMETHING!
I still can't get behind the argument that the dungeons are boring so exploiting is the way to go. If you get bored by doing the same fights over and over, don't do them.
How about the fact that some of us have jobs and limited time to be on, and when the Q says dungeons should take 45 minutes and then by clearing the entire dungeons they're well over an hour with no wipes, I simply don't have the time or patience to run more than one. My DC needs T2, so the only time it's even worth doing is during DD, so I have 1 hour. I can either get in 1 run that takes longer than the full DD time, or I can get in 3 and instead of waiting 3 weeks for his full set I'll have it in 1.
To fix exploiting all cryptic has to do is lower the amount of trash so that the dungeons actually take 30-45 mins max, then there's no reason to exploit. 45 min. average would make dungeons a lot more fun.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Note all dungeons can be full cleared in the allotted time. The so called trash in dungeons is a lead in to the boss fights, if you don't learn to deal with the trash wiping on the boss is almost certain.
A competent group can full clear faster, than a bunch of morons can by trying to run ahead suicide and wasting kits.
The biggest problem is just Laziness, paired with incompetent players.
Never well as your mind is close to anything that not long and boring .
Maybe true, who knows.
The thing is, i don't think that the dungeons are boring. Just yesterday i did spellplague, first time since a few weeks with my Gf. We did not skip, did not bug mobs out to commit suicide, hardly ever pushed mobs of cliffs. We had a great time. Yes, it took a while. The group wasn't that good gear-and skillwise but it was fun. Nothing boring about it. I wouldn't do that every day or even less a few times a day. But i don't have to. Today i might do another dungeon with another char. Not the same so i don't get bored. The boring part would be doing a dungeon and to wait at a campfire for the TR to unlock the next spawn point. Thats boring and not really an accomplishment.
And btw i also "need" some T2 gear for a two of my chars. Why the rush to get in a few days? Do you maybe wonder that this might be reason why there seems to be a lack of endgame content? If you rush through everything, soon you won't have much to do but to quit.
Comments
- playing the game
- having the content lasting a few months - the intended duration.
Now, i'd like some exploit fans answering some basic questions, like, what's the point of getting billions of ADs and epic gear if you only skip every possible fight? That's really pointless, you could do all exploits in green lvl 50 gear, it would make zero difference, and your characters wouldn't be less powerul. Since the core of this game is PvE, i'm curious to see what's the answer.
I dunno, maybe PLAYING THE GAME THE WAY IT WAS DESIGNED?
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
If you are good enough to run by all mobs and fight them at fire, then no problem.
But really, stop blaming each other. The fault lies with the developers. There is no excuse for them to allow well known exploitable content to remain on Live server (for months in most cases)- it should be taken down immediately when discovered.
The answer is not to allow exploitable content to remain Live and put the onus on the player to "follow the rules". The answer is for the developers to take pride in their product and thoroughly test it before release - and then do the responsible thing and remove it from Live if found exploitable.
However, in the case of this game, its obvious that corporate profits supercede exploit free and quality product.
Of course it's up to the devs, but instead, the priorities aren't fixing content, it's producing new and exploitable content as fast as they can. Malabog's castle is full of exploits. Really. There are some improvements, but it's far from being clean.
What they have to do to fix exploits is:
- changing the quest design inside dungeons, maybe porting back the malabog tech to make extra npc packs you didn't clear spawning inside the boss room
- fixing some specific exploit mechanics on a case by case basis, like boss suicide spots, some invisible walls to prevent killing bosses too easily, etc.
- fixing the AI to prevent NPC suicides and NPC losing aggro on players exploiting these very friendly mechanics.
I think the first element should be quite trivial, the last d one, though, would require a lot more work, but at some point, it has to be done if they want the game to last and to be enjoyable for the vast majority of the (new) players.
To get to T2 I had to do T1 dungeons first, imagine my frustration doing it countless of times and not getting anything (sometimes because of roll, sometimes because CW items didn't drop) and when doing T1 I was clearing 100% of dungeon with team.
When I finally got GS of 8.3k I started doing T2 and guess what? I was underpowered to do most of them (except PK which must be easiest).
Now that I have enough GS to do CN I'm still underpowered, so I need AD to buy enchants and wards and I would like to get it fast so I can do (and finish) CN (and MC) without failure.
Some may exploit to get thoose "billions" AD you mentioned but I, personally, am trying not to waste time on something I already done several times.
If it would be more enjoyable than skipping few pointless battles then it would be tempting, right now doing same dungeon several times (100% clear) is annoying, especially when at the very end team realises that we can't kill final boss (imagine spending 1.5h on dungeon and not getting "anything" from it, sounds like fun?).
Im not really a skipper. Sometimes when I pug if group lead wants to Ill follow. I prefer to do full clears for fun. If I really cared about skipping Id just leave group immediately once its established that's what theyre doing.
They are hoarding AD, because they understand how F2P MMOs work. They revolve around the cash shop. They understand as the game progresses PWE will continuously update their Cash Shops more rapidly then they do fixes to other things (this is partially due to different teams working on diff things, and bugs/exploits/glitches require more work/time to review the code and then implement it properly). These ingame currency to CS currency converters (AD/ZEN Exchange) work as a double edged sword. It allows F2P players to play game free. But then farmers/exploiters/bots also have an easy way to convert to currency that would otherwise cost real money. It all revolves around the cash shop.
F2P games however many times they tell you the opposite; will give you slight advantage in-game with different things, some is convience others are straight power. Also just for prestige of having a lot of CS items. I posted this in a previous long ago topic. They are hoarding AD, waiting till more powerful things come along in boxes or in CS. (Tenebrous/will see what bronzewood can do/and that other life gaining one/more powerful mounts - faster/combat mounts maybe/more powerful companions/augments).
Once you have a good amount/I mean a good amount. You can contiously play the auction house or AD/Zen exchange.
They are doing it because F2P games revolve around the Cash Shops, they are prepping themselves for future sales; and more powerful items to be released in CS. Or to set themselves to play the AH or Zen/AD exchange game. It has very little to do gear.
Some people may be going along for the ride for gear for alts or mains also. Not all these people are intentionally doing it, some are. You cant lump everyone together. But these people understand F2P games revolve around the cash shops.
But again you cant lump them all together. Some are doing it just to gear more quickly. But the really heavy runners are doing it in preparation for the cash shop.
TL;DR - AD for Continuous cash shop updates, don't lump all together. Heavy runners doing it to prepare for CS. Some just for gear.
Premise of the topic title is misleading. Exploiting/skipping does not equal failure of dungeon.
PS in no way bashing PWE on CS. It is how they make a living.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
So you have summed up several issues:
1. Your GS is very low -- this can be fixed with unicorn seals to get into T2 which then you can acquire drake items and eventually beat these "hard T2 final bosses"
2. You aren't playing with very good players
3. You cheat because you can't beat the content legitimately
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
Dodging trash because you don't have to pull it (ex the trash is far enough away you can walk past it without aggro'ing it) vs cheating to avoid the trash.
Again the problem is summed up by several posters - the game is too hard so therefore you have to cheat. I understand.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
Void Reaper - 60 CW
Eliza Trickfoot - 60 TR
Scarlet Maiden - 60 DC
Timmy Orc-Bane - 60 GWF
Ranger Jo - 20 HR
you ask whats the point of getting millions?to show of that gear enchants like a peacock, kill in pvp, parade on a stag,be better than everybody else, all online games are abouth ego.you named your toon god dude.
and there was only one exploit in dungeon so far pirate king in the beggining of the game....so no exploits there,and one in quest.so only 2 exploits for banning and only one of those was for perma bann so not sure what are you talking abouth.what exploits?
you seem to know to much abouth exploits...never heard of dungeon "exploit" that can be done in green.this is very real exploit then and they should check you out.how you know about this stuff.
i will report you what is to much is to much,exploits in green.
1. My GS is now 9.6k which should be enough for me to help beat bosses (I'm CW so my main role is to control adds) besides: beating the boss has nothing to do with skipping pointless trash mobs
2. That point is questionable
3. I "cheat" to avoid wasting time on something I already done several times
I just don't see fun in killing tons of trash meat over and over again just to get to the boss to get a chance of getting an item.
EDIT:
as a reminder
You know why? Cause people can't accept listening to differing opinions.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
The way I see it, for speed runners it is an endless loop. The need to run the dungeon as quickly as possible in order to get the loot, so they can run the dungeon even quicker, so they can get better loot to run the dungeon quicker.... By the time they have gotten geared up they are bored and just want to finish the dungeon as fast as possible. I just don't understand that, what is point in getting the best gear if you never actually play the dungeon. So they have a pile of AD, what good does that do them, they already have the gear. I do agree with them about the rewards though that you do get from the dungeon, whether mob loot, boss loot, or DD chest loot. That could be made better and more rewarding, give a better feeling of accomplishment.
The exploits need to be removed, the bosses need to be reworked, and the rewards need to be made worthwhile. All of these fixes would most certainly please both sides of the debate.
Think endgame. It started from the top and trickled down. Ones that fail are the bottom rung. The ones you should be concerned about are at the top.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
the players in my guild spent a lot of time learning how to do each dungeon. Those trash mobs you all so like to skip actually are a preview of many of the boss fights. For example the wolves and snowmen in FH, learn to fight those as a team, and first boss is easy to kill, same with pretty much all of the dungeons. As a group we slowly worked our way through pirates, frozen heart, temple of spider, spellplaque.. as we got better and got our t2 sets and rank 6, 7 enchants, we started clearing things faster. learning the spider queen fight probably took the longest, but once we mastered it (you have to know which powers work best for each fight) we moved on to karrundux and cn.
once they fix the skipping of boss fights and the suicides, the ones skipping the content will take them months to figure out how to actually play their characters to finish the dungeons. It will be quite funny and sad that these macked out characters can't kill probably the t1 bosses let alone the t2.
and karrundux is quite easy if you had been clearing the dungeons this entire time learning to work with your group and learning your characters better. most people just want to be at the top of the dps chart, when sometimes those boss fights require say a TR to utilize some powers that dont do damage in order to help out the team and stay alive.
there is a process that should be done in order to complete dungeons, clearing the trash is an essential part of that process.. so what if you dont get loot from them, learn from those fights so you aren't behind the 8 ball when you cant suicide the spider queen anymore, or cant skip the bosses in Fh... to say the ones that can run from campfire to campfire and skip the content are probably better players then most is just laughable. that takes no skill at all to make the spider queen suicide, or run past mobs in cn etc...
9.6K GS is really low for your class. Point #3 still stands, you cheat because you can't clear the content legitimately. In our guild, we can clear content faster than most people can cheat it. Why waste time running from campfire to campfire, dying over and over, then glitching the final boss? Complete joke.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
She is right. When they fix exploits (and they will)... I expect to see a mass exodus of weak cheating players. I'd rather play on a shard with 100 people that play legit than 10,000 cheaters.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
I can still move.
I can still fight.
I will never give up!
This display one thing: masked lack of content
want to appear have more content then actually have -> increase health pools to boring values -> players finding ways around
plus, all the bosses are exactly the same: no-AI easy boss with overwhelming endless waves of adds, they need to be a bit creative. No wonder players became fed up with this policy.
And why waste time killing same mobs over and over to get nothing out of it? Perhaps you (somehow) can do it faster, perhaps with team that has 13k+GS it is easy but first people needs that gear and on the way to get it killing thoose same mobs gets boring so running to campfires, exiting and returning to instance is faster and less annoying.
I have no idea how it can be fun to you doing same thing few times so everyone can get something out of it, I don't see it.
I'm not denying that using shortcuts and glitches to beat the game is bad but epic dungeons mechanics are broken.
And now a little suggestion
This but instead of punishing people who just want to get to the boss(es) should get a choice at the begining of dungeon (some sort of NPC offering a shortcut) which allow them to teleport to the final campfire (or any boss). Of course it would come with penalty of lower (very low) drop of epic items and lower ammount of seals.
It really is the best suggestion to prevent using shortcuts in dungeons because it mostly rewards people (every member of party) for taking their time clearing the dungeon and ability to get to the boss instantly gives you upper hand if you're not sure about your group (or want to test tactics on particular boss); you could just skip to the final boss and see if they can do it, if so then start dungeon once again and clear it 100%
PS think of that running from campfire to campfire or reentering instance (and glitching boss) as a back door that developers left for players who gets bored by clearing same dungeon over and over again
PPS wondras is right
And then came the 22nd August massive nerf of all the classes (ok, admittedly more massive for the classes that were already sub-par)
How relevant now is this nice knowledge that your Guild patiently stacked during all these weeks? Knowing how many adds you can handle in the final boss room when inside/outside the DC circle? What to put in your rotation for the first two bosses of this or that dungeon. How long you need to kite the mobs before your Daily is back?
Dust and memories, that's all what remains of what used to be a deep knowledge of your class and of the dungeons.
Or play a different class. I have 3 Chars at 60 and each plays completly different. If i get bored tanking and hitting stuff with my sword, i play my DC. And if i get bored putting blue circles on the ground i play my CW and create black holes that could suck up entire universes. The same dungeon becomes a new experience.
And when i get bored of all of them, i might start leveling up a new class or shut down my PC. All this is no excuse for exploiting content. I just don't understand it.
And i agree, it's mainly up to the devs to fix this problem. It's emberassing that so many bugs and exploitable content is out there for months. And I think the lack of information does not help. They should at least put out some information, that they are really working hard to fix this. Maybe even some specific statement, what they are intending to do, even if it takes a while. In the "News&Annoncements"-Section are all sorts of news for upcoming things. New companions, new events and all sorts, but not one item adresses exploits and bugs. Something like this would also make it clear what is and what is not intended. If they said, they are trying to fix the campfire spawn exploit, it would be clear, that is not ment to be there.
All I am trying to say, DO SOMETHING!
Never well as your mind is close to anything that not long and boring .
OH for love of that holy please stop with the idea that force people to clean a dungeon not everyone want to do that.
I can still move.
I can still fight.
I will never give up!
How about the fact that some of us have jobs and limited time to be on, and when the Q says dungeons should take 45 minutes and then by clearing the entire dungeons they're well over an hour with no wipes, I simply don't have the time or patience to run more than one. My DC needs T2, so the only time it's even worth doing is during DD, so I have 1 hour. I can either get in 1 run that takes longer than the full DD time, or I can get in 3 and instead of waiting 3 weeks for his full set I'll have it in 1.
To fix exploiting all cryptic has to do is lower the amount of trash so that the dungeons actually take 30-45 mins max, then there's no reason to exploit. 45 min. average would make dungeons a lot more fun.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Note all dungeons can be full cleared in the allotted time. The so called trash in dungeons is a lead in to the boss fights, if you don't learn to deal with the trash wiping on the boss is almost certain.
A competent group can full clear faster, than a bunch of morons can by trying to run ahead suicide and wasting kits.
The biggest problem is just Laziness, paired with incompetent players.
The thing is, i don't think that the dungeons are boring. Just yesterday i did spellplague, first time since a few weeks with my Gf. We did not skip, did not bug mobs out to commit suicide, hardly ever pushed mobs of cliffs. We had a great time. Yes, it took a while. The group wasn't that good gear-and skillwise but it was fun. Nothing boring about it. I wouldn't do that every day or even less a few times a day. But i don't have to. Today i might do another dungeon with another char. Not the same so i don't get bored. The boring part would be doing a dungeon and to wait at a campfire for the TR to unlock the next spawn point. Thats boring and not really an accomplishment.
And btw i also "need" some T2 gear for a two of my chars. Why the rush to get in a few days? Do you maybe wonder that this might be reason why there seems to be a lack of endgame content? If you rush through everything, soon you won't have much to do but to quit.