But it is possible to fix dungeons, if you have to kill X% of the npcs inside the dungeon to make the final boss spawn, or make Y total damage, then it's just a matter of (a lot) of coding and choosing a X or a Y for every dungeon. It is definitely possible to make terrain glitches worthless. Trying to fix every hole is indeed pointless, thus, they need something to make some clearing mandatory. It will make the game better for everyone, except the same 5 people complaining about adds on the forums. :P
Just make it so you have to kill like 70% of the mobs in the dungeon and have a counter on your quest tracker.
I am with the OP, in my opinion it takes longer to do the exploiting then just killing especially in spellplaque. My guild is based on no exploits or glitches, we run the dungeons straight up and it does not take us 3 hours to clear them. We can do spellplaque in less than an hour including the final boss. I have never been able to do it in that time with exploiters, because by the time we get to the final boss in a pug group they don't know how to play their characters to kill the final boss.
its frustrating that people think by glitching the spider queen in TOS is somehow completing the dungeon, why even do it. once they fix it very few will be able to complete that dungeon because they have no clue how the fight works. and the question is why isnt this fixed? Why are you still able to pull her through the door and have her suicide?
i was in a guild where the leaders did dungeons just by glitching and cant kill final bosses in cn, spellplaque, because they have no clue how to play their characters to counter an actual fight.
so the group of us formed our own guild and are better for it, we are having fun clearing pirates three times in the hour long dungeon delves just to see if we can do it. We can do a pirate, tos and spellplaque run (in that order to insure three chests)before the dungeon delve timer expires. And we dont skip mobs, or glitch/exploit in any way. Those who say it takes too long to get through trash are just making excuses because they exploited to get their gear, but have no clue how to play their classes.
just find like minded players to play with, if you are on the dragon server look up the future guild, we dont exploit at all, and have a blast.
it happen to me recently, for last few weeks ago, i was in que'ed for skirmish and some dungeon runs.
there are some who just leave by breaking 5 man team with less players, and some others who just ran and skipped first series of bosses, "claiming them time-sinker trash", now others who got fed-ups with waves of adds.
now it made the runs incompletable, made me very frustrated and feeling forced to leave and reset que and hope for better groups and hopefully to avoid those exploiters, or quit-griefers.
I hate speed runs. Trying to get a group together can a real pain though. With all of the "11K GS, exp only, CN ring farm, fast" posts they tend to drown out those that are looking for normal players. I want to enjoy the content, I don't care if it is my fifth time in the dungeon. The speedsters complain that we are trying to make them play our way, but they have no qualms about complaining if we don't play their way. Joining the queue is an exercise in frustration because half of the group wants to play normally, the other half speed and it turns into a failed run. A way to end the exploiters would be to have 3 keys put in random locations off of the main path that are needed to unlock the final boss room. If you feel fighting the mobs is wasting your time, remember you are playing a game, games are made to waste time, so just by logging in you are wasting time.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
pirate king with exploits: 20-30 minutes
without: 30-45
frozen heart with exploits: 20-40 minutes
without: 45-90
temple of the spider with exploits: 15-30 minutes
without: 45-90
dread vault shouldn't be much difference exploit and without, it's very very difficult either way.
CN with exploits: 45-60 minutes
CN without exploits: I tried once with a really good team experimenting with a no cw round, we did surprisingly well up to dracolich where we simply were overrun even though we focused on the red wizards. I don't think you're gonna find 1 in 100 public teams able to beat the dracolich without exploiting the red wizards with the new CN bugs in the expansion patch.
MC with exploits: 45-60 minutes
MC without exploits: You're gonna need a pretty good team to handle the buggy boss.
I can't believe what I am reading. Who are you playing with? My guild on Dragon REFUSES to cheat and we can clear everything much faster than you listed. Pirate King without cheats at 30-45? We can run it in about 23 minutes. Spider taking up to 90 minutes? I mean I can understand if you are in a terrible pug group that can't kill the final boss but we can run it in 30 mins..
You need to start playing with better players because eventually they will fix all the exploits and cheating.... and all the weak/unskilled players that can't do the content because it is too hard will really be screwed.
I am with the OP, in my opinion it takes longer to do the exploiting then just killing especially in spellplaque. My guild is based on no exploits or glitches, we run the dungeons straight up and it does not take us 3 hours to clear them. We can do spellplaque in less than an hour including the final boss. I have never been able to do it in that time with exploiters, because by the time we get to the final boss in a pug group they don't know how to play their characters to kill the final boss.
its frustrating that people think by glitching the spider queen in TOS is somehow completing the dungeon, why even do it. once they fix it very few will be able to complete that dungeon because they have no clue how the fight works. and the question is why isnt this fixed? Why are you still able to pull her through the door and have her suicide?
i was in a guild where the leaders did dungeons just by glitching and cant kill final bosses in cn, spellplaque, because they have no clue how to play their characters to counter an actual fight.
so the group of us formed our own guild and are better for it, we are having fun clearing pirates three times in the hour long dungeon delves just to see if we can do it. We can do a pirate, tos and spellplaque run (in that order to insure three chests)before the dungeon delve timer expires. And we dont skip mobs, or glitch/exploit in any way. Those who say it takes too long to get through trash are just making excuses because they exploited to get their gear, but have no clue how to play their classes.
just find like minded players to play with, if you are on the dragon server look up the future guild, we dont exploit at all, and have a blast.
Bold part says it all. Cheaters are just not good at this game.
You guys are funny... especially the ones saying they are doing dungeons like Karr without bending the rules abit... you must think we are playing different games or something...
Personal I think it just one person or at most 3-5 people.....oh wait it is 3-5 people . The same 3-5 people who love BOP,and need only for class. I think about time they tell us how they get the DEV to listing to them(hint hint ).
Hell on one page it two guy(or girls) Just ranting on and on.
I have a race that this kind of people can relate to it the Borg.
Just look at it like it is a jumping puzzle. Once you know it, it's fine. Getting players willing to show you and getting grouped with players expecting you to know the route like the back of your hand is frustrating.
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You guys are funny... especially the ones saying they are doing dungeons like Karr without bending the rules abit... you must think we are playing different games or something...
We actually did Epic Karrundax tonight to get two people's alts T2 gloves... we cleared it in about 47 minutes. We 1 shot the final boss without a problem and didn't skip any of the trash by sneaking to campfires or any shortcuts (like jumping on sides of mountains). There is just a different level of players out there that you haven't played with before.
This is what our DD was tonight: 2x Pirate runs at 26 mins each and then a Karr Run.
I think speed runs etc. will get you banned in the future. Considered that the exact same procedure in PWE's game "Perfect World" got you banned instantly already, (skipping packs of mobs) it would only make sense if the same rule applied to NW, aswell.
If you don't have the time or skill to beat a dungeon, you do not deserve any kind of loot from it. Currently, if you do not have said requirements, you still are being rewarded, which clearly is a design flaw and fixes/consequences for abusing it should be expected.
Don't cry, in 10 weeks when you won't be able to play the game at all, anymore due to greed/impatience. Better be precautious and smart enough to stop it, now. You saw what happened to quest sharers:
"It is not my fault that I took advantage of an exploit, it clearly is cryptic's fault..."
No, because we don't want to play your way, just like you don't want to play our way. Stop forcing your style of game play on others.
Have they now when and where at ? I for one don't mind if you want take a group of people to run a dungeon that take 2-3 hours. Now if you one the few who say it can be done under a hour record it and post it. I for one bet it only feel like a hour when in fact it more like two hours.
I think speed runs etc. will get you banned in the future. Considered that the exact same procedure in PWE's game "Perfect World" got you banned instantly already, (skipping packs of mobs) it would only make sense if the same rule applied to NW, aswell.
Stop it PWI is an Asain grind nothing more(great game and all)I had played them all I want a nice fast pace MMO RPG(aka level,gear getting )
I think there's a bit of a disconnect here on what people consider exploiting.
CF skips:
Fardelver: They "fixed" it once, I think they've just given up.
FH: 1st Boss skip with TR death is definitely an exploit, that wall is closed
Full party death run between 2nd boss and final area? Basically necessary, it's not worth anyone's time to kill the 2nd boss adds, and you have to clear the stalagmites to open the final door anyway, so the only "exploit" is getting rid of HP bugged adds.
Pirate: Death run to final boss? So long as the whole party is doing it, it means that everyone is going to die (possibly multiple times since some people always seem to die ...). I don't have a problem for this, it has a real cost = time effect.
Karru: Bridge Jump ports you to a GY without ever giving a "discovered CF" message, Probably considered an Exploit by Cryptic, of course you're skipping at least 15 min of trash.
Pre-Jump going over the tunnel: The opening in the tunnel and route to the roof basically scream intended to me. You only skip 2 pulls though, so pointless.
Spider: First one is pointless really, you save 5 min at the cost of a kit.
Chasm jump is .. well, that's basically what you'd do in D&D actually, being chased by a bunch of enemies and jumping across a chasm to escape them.
Spell: Final run: I can't believe that they would put in insta-death lava and not expect us to use it to our advantage.
CN: The amount of trash reminds me of AQ40 in WoW, even with the couple skips it's still an absurdly long dungeon.
1st TR Run: Just like FH I can't see this as anything but an exploit even though you're only skipping some of the worst content in the game and not the worst boss in the game.
Bridge jump: Clearly unintended.
Shadowfell skip: It's been known for months and they haven't fixed it, the route is even a path, but that's probably just environment design, gotta be unintended. Of course, they need to fix the Shadowfell difficulty
3rd to 4th boss run: It's bad enough the adds on the 3rd boss bug out and leave you in combat, but the trash mobs afterward are just repetitions of what you've fought before, giant waste of time, but again, likely unintended.
Boss easy-kills
FH 2nd boss: I don't know if they ever fixed the hole in the wall that just let you ranged attack him to death, but that's clearly an exploit. Also an exploit to lure him out of the room and get him to charge into a pit.
Karru 1st and 3rd boss: Mages on cliffs are clearly an exploit.
Karru Final boss: despawning adds by running to the chest is probably an exploit, but who knows?
Spider 1st boss: Still possible to lure him into the acid-water, clearly an exploit since they tried to fix it.
Spider Final boss: Pulling her through the door is clearly an exploit, almost pointless half the time because she teleports back to the room constantly or can bug out
Spell 1st and 2nd boss: Pulling it through the door is clearly an exploit
CN 2nd boss: Mages on statue is clearly an exploit
MC final boss: Mages underground is clearly an exploit, but the boss needs fixed before it can be killed normally without just being lucky.
Things I don't consider an exploit: Pushing enemies off cliffs, into pits, or over gates. Now, I do consider this a game balance issue, because Arcane Singularity + Repel/Shield Burst makes CWs just as required as DCs to complete dungeons; while TR and GWF get massive damage nerfs for pvp balance there's less and less reason to bring them along for their role (ie. damage) this is a major issue in CN where a "balanced party" of 1 of each class is a terrible makeup. There's an utter failure in the design when the reason you bring a Fighter is to kite mobs and help push, and the TR is the one tanking.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2013
My experience as a rather new player:
- never played a game so exploited. The dungeon design is crazy, the campfires, gates, mobs passing through, hazards that kill them, jumping over the stuff where invisible walls should be... you know it. Imagine Nefarian falling off his terrace. Or Ragnaros getting killed by the lava pool. It's insane, I'm not sure what the hell did the devs had in their minds.
- as a new player, it's intimidating and rather hard to gear up (without money). Only "experienced", 11K+ runs in /lfg, and you won't get in 90% of the times as a newbie. Queues take ages and you will 75% fail even at the first boss sometimes. So I have to be honest - it's an MMO and a lot of it revolves around gear. MMO vets like myself would set goals and focus on them. So when an opportunity arrives to kill the last boss and get your chance at the tier, you won't play the primadonna and refuse to execute some exploit, or you might get gear in an months.
- the adds. Holy eternity, the **** adds. Many. Lots of HP. Teleporting on you. Immune to CC. Bad drops. Same type that you already encountered during questing alone, but inflated stats. So why bother? Skip if you can. We skipped in WoW a lot too - when possible (it wasn't possible many times). Running dungeons for gear is mostly about efficiency, the lore you know already, you've seen the design...
- something rather controversial... the "exploiter" groups I played with - they were way, way more skilled than the usual pug I met in queue. Even those that barely had 8300 GS or whatever the entry score, probably alts gearing up. And obviously, some were also rather geared. So when we had to kill unskippable stuff, it went smooth.
- at 9000 GS or so, in a pug, some dungeons are a nightmare. The big adds take ages to dps. Bosses have the opportunity to spawn huge number of adds because of low dps and so on. Maybe 3 hrs for SP is a bit exaggerated, but if you kill everything, you might end up with 2 hrs. Oh and the 2nd/last SP boss, no exploits, pug group? Expect to wipe for an hour on each and people ragequitting.
My personal opinion? Exploting is HAMSTER, but it's the consequence of horrific instance/boss encounter design. I've tried both ways, and I'm surely not willing to lose the DD chest because people will ragequit (and they will, trust me) after a few wipes. There are bosses (PK/SP/DV last boss for example) where I can play my CW without no exploits and perform very well, get gear and be happy - if in a team that knows what to do. But this is not something one can expect in a pug, with people that might not even know English and won't communicate and so on.
How to fix this?
All depends on PW/Cryptic. It will take a huge redesign, with proper walling, no more jumps, no more boss suicidal tendencies and so on. And there needs to be a proper design philosophy instead of "Throw in more adds, NOW!". No more endless waves on each and every encounter. No more "we need 3 CWs" HAMSTER. Make these dungeons rewarding and fun enough instead of long trudges through endless mob waves, and the exploiters might stop looking for little things to skip content. For example... in all the (many, many) pugs/LFDs I ran in WoW in years, I've never met a group of exploiters, not once.
(Oh and if the dungeon is 8300 GS/45 min., then it should be doable by a queue group in that exact period, with that GS. You know, there's a reason people ask for 11K GS for T2s. Since very geared people still need incentive, make achievements for different difficult executions, with nice rewards, like cool mount and so on, just like WoW has "Glory of the..." achis.)
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2013
A group running to a campfire and purposely dying to bypass a pack of mobs is cheating. If the game was "designed" so you didn't have to fight the mobs, they wouldn't be there in the first place.
I have a feeling most if not all of your post well get edit. This kind post are great now a video or two would be batter but the mods won't let it happen.
durandurahanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2013
I have been playing this game for about 3months now, I knew all bug and exploit in this game, and I have made 2 Threads in Bug Reports section about these exploit things, but none of them are replied by Devs. What does this mean? CRYPTIC IGNORED and CAN NOT FIX any EXPLOIT because the BUG is in the DUNGEON's DESIGN & SYSTEM ITSELF. The only way to erase and fix all these bugs are revamp all Dungeon's and Boss's system and design.
And DON'T FORGET, Exploiting a BUG is not against the RULES, we're simply A LUCKY PLAYER!
At this point we don't know what is exploit and what is Shortcut, remember the Map Header says otherwise most epic dungeons can be finish in Min. 8300+gs and 45mins.
So i would request the GAME DEVELOPER of this game to show us their toons on 8300k gs and finish the map on 45mins. range and put in on YOUTUBE or whatever for everyone to see. Unless they says it can be done i dont think anything will change atm.
/edit,
Of course this should be one class each so everyone should be able to shut up regarding one being nerf.
1 each class on TR,DC,GF,GWF,CW on 8300kgs finishing all T2 on 45mins. DEV show us the VID.
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arcademasterMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
At this point we don't know what is exploit and what is Shortcut, remember the Map Header says otherwise most epic dungeons can be finish in Min. 8300+gs and 45mins.
8300GS is the minimum to be allowed to enter, that is not an "average".
However, I do agree in principle. Some of the T2 dungeons simply take too long. And not because of difficulty, but because of senseless filler content.
No matter how much you enjoy killing stuff, this game is only about the gear. Post-60 that's the only thing you can advance, and let's face it, advancing is the core of any rpg. If getting that stuff is just mindless, boring reruns of the same run each and every time, there will be less incentive for the boring part and more to skip ahead to the good part; the loot.
Trying to stop people taking the easy way will have as much effect as herding cats. It's Murphy's Law, if it's exploitable it will be exploited. They ONLY way to stop that is to make it not-exploitable anymore, not by blaming the cats.
Just putting my 2 cents here. I agree with OP. this is A GAME. meant to be played not shortcutted or bug exploited. if you feel the need to shortcut or exploit anything then either you aint such a good player or you simply aint having fun and should find something else to do. that being said my tag is oferlightborn@sirschori, i ALWAYS clear maps and my friends do so as well. if you want you can add me.
Unfortunately: There will always be those that take shortcuts and do that which they know they should not do.
"Keep off the grass" You will find footprints all over it.
"Wet Paint Please Don't Touch" You will find fringerprints all over it.
Power Levelers have always been a pain in the butt, Their focus is new gear & new weapons.
They head for the area boss leaving there spawns for others to clean up or get killed by, they love to find shortcuts to there goal not matter its legality, they run everywhere and help no-one other than themselves apart from when they steal that kill from you! "Hey I just helped ya you were almost dead" they yell back at you.
All the way to the top of the mountain (level cap)they run, then once there upon their mountain they scream this game is S*** because there's nothing at the end?
How do you explain the simple truth to such as these, that its the journey not the destination that makes the game?
The most annoying behavior which some speed runners do is not help teammates.
I can do a speed run (sometimes) and even join in exploiting (sometimes) ...
But if you run past me, while I fight a mob, be prepared for me to quit.
If my life means nothing to you, then why do I want to play with you?
It does not matter what is the plan. Do not ignore and ran past teammates in combat or who need help.
If you do not help or care about teammates, then please go play single players games. Multiplayer games are not for you.
Sometimes, when a speed runner is bossy and wants to skip too many mobs, I test him by running ahead and attacking a mob.
If the speed runner runs past me and lets me die, then I start yelling or quit.
The selfishness of some players is beyond my comprehension.
Still not one of the carebears here answer the question?
Spellauge Dungeon in 45mins.
have anyone of you wondered why Cryptic put the map to be finish in 45min No i dont think you have an answer for that... LOL.
Hello,
Well with all the comments of " What is an Exploit ????" Maybe one should wonder if the timer wasn't forgotten about as well, maybe???????? that 45 min. is the old timer for when the game testers were playing and it never got changed, Maybe...... that should really read....1 Hour 45 minutes.
or maybe you want them to put on the window 2 choices,
1) Would you like to enter this dungeon with you current team?
2) And would you like the exploit map or the Normal map?
If you hired me to paint your house and I told you the paint was going to cost you 400 dollars but it's the best paint you can buy, then I proceed to put white wash on your walls instead, you may not know a thing about paint but you know when something is wrong and act accordingly.
Cheers!
P.S. Stuff moves so fast here you may have missed it but I also put a post here 1 or 2 pages back I believe it is #37.
Comments
Just make it so you have to kill like 70% of the mobs in the dungeon and have a counter on your quest tracker.
its frustrating that people think by glitching the spider queen in TOS is somehow completing the dungeon, why even do it. once they fix it very few will be able to complete that dungeon because they have no clue how the fight works. and the question is why isnt this fixed? Why are you still able to pull her through the door and have her suicide?
i was in a guild where the leaders did dungeons just by glitching and cant kill final bosses in cn, spellplaque, because they have no clue how to play their characters to counter an actual fight.
so the group of us formed our own guild and are better for it, we are having fun clearing pirates three times in the hour long dungeon delves just to see if we can do it. We can do a pirate, tos and spellplaque run (in that order to insure three chests)before the dungeon delve timer expires. And we dont skip mobs, or glitch/exploit in any way. Those who say it takes too long to get through trash are just making excuses because they exploited to get their gear, but have no clue how to play their classes.
just find like minded players to play with, if you are on the dragon server look up the future guild, we dont exploit at all, and have a blast.
there are some who just leave by breaking 5 man team with less players, and some others who just ran and skipped first series of bosses, "claiming them time-sinker trash", now others who got fed-ups with waves of adds.
now it made the runs incompletable, made me very frustrated and feeling forced to leave and reset que and hope for better groups and hopefully to avoid those exploiters, or quit-griefers.
I can't believe what I am reading. Who are you playing with? My guild on Dragon REFUSES to cheat and we can clear everything much faster than you listed. Pirate King without cheats at 30-45? We can run it in about 23 minutes. Spider taking up to 90 minutes? I mean I can understand if you are in a terrible pug group that can't kill the final boss but we can run it in 30 mins..
You need to start playing with better players because eventually they will fix all the exploits and cheating.... and all the weak/unskilled players that can't do the content because it is too hard will really be screwed.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
Bold part says it all. Cheaters are just not good at this game.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
Hell on one page it two guy(or girls) Just ranting on and on.
I have a race that this kind of people can relate to it the Borg.
I can still move.
I can still fight.
I will never give up!
We actually did Epic Karrundax tonight to get two people's alts T2 gloves... we cleared it in about 47 minutes. We 1 shot the final boss without a problem and didn't skip any of the trash by sneaking to campfires or any shortcuts (like jumping on sides of mountains). There is just a different level of players out there that you haven't played with before.
This is what our DD was tonight: 2x Pirate runs at 26 mins each and then a Karr Run.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
I can still move.
I can still fight.
I will never give up!
If you don't have the time or skill to beat a dungeon, you do not deserve any kind of loot from it. Currently, if you do not have said requirements, you still are being rewarded, which clearly is a design flaw and fixes/consequences for abusing it should be expected.
Don't cry, in 10 weeks when you won't be able to play the game at all, anymore due to greed/impatience. Better be precautious and smart enough to stop it, now. You saw what happened to quest sharers:
"It is not my fault that I took advantage of an exploit, it clearly is cryptic's fault..."
Enjoy.
I can still move.
I can still fight.
I will never give up!
I can still move.
I can still fight.
I will never give up!
CF skips:
Fardelver: They "fixed" it once, I think they've just given up.
FH: 1st Boss skip with TR death is definitely an exploit, that wall is closed
Full party death run between 2nd boss and final area? Basically necessary, it's not worth anyone's time to kill the 2nd boss adds, and you have to clear the stalagmites to open the final door anyway, so the only "exploit" is getting rid of HP bugged adds.
Pirate: Death run to final boss? So long as the whole party is doing it, it means that everyone is going to die (possibly multiple times since some people always seem to die ...). I don't have a problem for this, it has a real cost = time effect.
Karru: Bridge Jump ports you to a GY without ever giving a "discovered CF" message, Probably considered an Exploit by Cryptic, of course you're skipping at least 15 min of trash.
Pre-Jump going over the tunnel: The opening in the tunnel and route to the roof basically scream intended to me. You only skip 2 pulls though, so pointless.
Spider: First one is pointless really, you save 5 min at the cost of a kit.
Chasm jump is .. well, that's basically what you'd do in D&D actually, being chased by a bunch of enemies and jumping across a chasm to escape them.
Spell: Final run: I can't believe that they would put in insta-death lava and not expect us to use it to our advantage.
CN: The amount of trash reminds me of AQ40 in WoW, even with the couple skips it's still an absurdly long dungeon.
1st TR Run: Just like FH I can't see this as anything but an exploit even though you're only skipping some of the worst content in the game and not the worst boss in the game.
Bridge jump: Clearly unintended.
Shadowfell skip: It's been known for months and they haven't fixed it, the route is even a path, but that's probably just environment design, gotta be unintended. Of course, they need to fix the Shadowfell difficulty
3rd to 4th boss run: It's bad enough the adds on the 3rd boss bug out and leave you in combat, but the trash mobs afterward are just repetitions of what you've fought before, giant waste of time, but again, likely unintended.
Boss easy-kills
FH 2nd boss: I don't know if they ever fixed the hole in the wall that just let you ranged attack him to death, but that's clearly an exploit. Also an exploit to lure him out of the room and get him to charge into a pit.
Karru 1st and 3rd boss: Mages on cliffs are clearly an exploit.
Karru Final boss: despawning adds by running to the chest is probably an exploit, but who knows?
Spider 1st boss: Still possible to lure him into the acid-water, clearly an exploit since they tried to fix it.
Spider Final boss: Pulling her through the door is clearly an exploit, almost pointless half the time because she teleports back to the room constantly or can bug out
Spell 1st and 2nd boss: Pulling it through the door is clearly an exploit
CN 2nd boss: Mages on statue is clearly an exploit
MC final boss: Mages underground is clearly an exploit, but the boss needs fixed before it can be killed normally without just being lucky.
Things I don't consider an exploit: Pushing enemies off cliffs, into pits, or over gates. Now, I do consider this a game balance issue, because Arcane Singularity + Repel/Shield Burst makes CWs just as required as DCs to complete dungeons; while TR and GWF get massive damage nerfs for pvp balance there's less and less reason to bring them along for their role (ie. damage) this is a major issue in CN where a "balanced party" of 1 of each class is a terrible makeup. There's an utter failure in the design when the reason you bring a Fighter is to kite mobs and help push, and the TR is the one tanking.
- never played a game so exploited. The dungeon design is crazy, the campfires, gates, mobs passing through, hazards that kill them, jumping over the stuff where invisible walls should be... you know it. Imagine Nefarian falling off his terrace. Or Ragnaros getting killed by the lava pool. It's insane, I'm not sure what the hell did the devs had in their minds.
- as a new player, it's intimidating and rather hard to gear up (without money). Only "experienced", 11K+ runs in /lfg, and you won't get in 90% of the times as a newbie. Queues take ages and you will 75% fail even at the first boss sometimes. So I have to be honest - it's an MMO and a lot of it revolves around gear. MMO vets like myself would set goals and focus on them. So when an opportunity arrives to kill the last boss and get your chance at the tier, you won't play the primadonna and refuse to execute some exploit, or you might get gear in an months.
- the adds. Holy eternity, the **** adds. Many. Lots of HP. Teleporting on you. Immune to CC. Bad drops. Same type that you already encountered during questing alone, but inflated stats. So why bother? Skip if you can. We skipped in WoW a lot too - when possible (it wasn't possible many times). Running dungeons for gear is mostly about efficiency, the lore you know already, you've seen the design...
- something rather controversial... the "exploiter" groups I played with - they were way, way more skilled than the usual pug I met in queue. Even those that barely had 8300 GS or whatever the entry score, probably alts gearing up. And obviously, some were also rather geared. So when we had to kill unskippable stuff, it went smooth.
- at 9000 GS or so, in a pug, some dungeons are a nightmare. The big adds take ages to dps. Bosses have the opportunity to spawn huge number of adds because of low dps and so on. Maybe 3 hrs for SP is a bit exaggerated, but if you kill everything, you might end up with 2 hrs. Oh and the 2nd/last SP boss, no exploits, pug group? Expect to wipe for an hour on each and people ragequitting.
My personal opinion? Exploting is HAMSTER, but it's the consequence of horrific instance/boss encounter design. I've tried both ways, and I'm surely not willing to lose the DD chest because people will ragequit (and they will, trust me) after a few wipes. There are bosses (PK/SP/DV last boss for example) where I can play my CW without no exploits and perform very well, get gear and be happy - if in a team that knows what to do. But this is not something one can expect in a pug, with people that might not even know English and won't communicate and so on.
How to fix this?
All depends on PW/Cryptic. It will take a huge redesign, with proper walling, no more jumps, no more boss suicidal tendencies and so on. And there needs to be a proper design philosophy instead of "Throw in more adds, NOW!". No more endless waves on each and every encounter. No more "we need 3 CWs" HAMSTER. Make these dungeons rewarding and fun enough instead of long trudges through endless mob waves, and the exploiters might stop looking for little things to skip content. For example... in all the (many, many) pugs/LFDs I ran in WoW in years, I've never met a group of exploiters, not once.
(Oh and if the dungeon is 8300 GS/45 min., then it should be doable by a queue group in that exact period, with that GS. You know, there's a reason people ask for 11K GS for T2s. Since very geared people still need incentive, make achievements for different difficult executions, with nice rewards, like cool mount and so on, just like WoW has "Glory of the..." achis.)
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
I can still move.
I can still fight.
I will never give up!
And DON'T FORGET, Exploiting a BUG is not against the RULES, we're simply A LUCKY PLAYER!
/2 cents
So i would request the GAME DEVELOPER of this game to show us their toons on 8300k gs and finish the map on 45mins. range and put in on YOUTUBE or whatever for everyone to see. Unless they says it can be done i dont think anything will change atm.
/edit,
Of course this should be one class each so everyone should be able to shut up regarding one being nerf.
1 each class on TR,DC,GF,GWF,CW on 8300kgs finishing all T2 on 45mins. DEV show us the VID.
8300GS is the minimum to be allowed to enter, that is not an "average".
However, I do agree in principle. Some of the T2 dungeons simply take too long. And not because of difficulty, but because of senseless filler content.
Trying to stop people taking the easy way will have as much effect as herding cats. It's Murphy's Law, if it's exploitable it will be exploited. They ONLY way to stop that is to make it not-exploitable anymore, not by blaming the cats.
"Keep off the grass" You will find footprints all over it.
"Wet Paint Please Don't Touch" You will find fringerprints all over it.
Power Levelers have always been a pain in the butt, Their focus is new gear & new weapons.
They head for the area boss leaving there spawns for others to clean up or get killed by, they love to find shortcuts to there goal not matter its legality, they run everywhere and help no-one other than themselves apart from when they steal that kill from you! "Hey I just helped ya you were almost dead" they yell back at you.
All the way to the top of the mountain (level cap)they run, then once there upon their mountain they scream this game is S*** because there's nothing at the end?
How do you explain the simple truth to such as these, that its the journey not the destination that makes the game?
Spellauge Dungeon in 45mins.
have anyone of you wondered why Cryptic put the map to be finish in 45mins.
No i dont think you have an answer for that... LOL.
I can do a speed run (sometimes) and even join in exploiting (sometimes) ...
But if you run past me, while I fight a mob, be prepared for me to quit.
If my life means nothing to you, then why do I want to play with you?
It does not matter what is the plan. Do not ignore and ran past teammates in combat or who need help.
If you do not help or care about teammates, then please go play single players games. Multiplayer games are not for you.
Sometimes, when a speed runner is bossy and wants to skip too many mobs, I test him by running ahead and attacking a mob.
If the speed runner runs past me and lets me die, then I start yelling or quit.
The selfishness of some players is beyond my comprehension.
Hello,
Well with all the comments of " What is an Exploit ????" Maybe one should wonder if the timer wasn't forgotten about as well, maybe???????? that 45 min. is the old timer for when the game testers were playing and it never got changed, Maybe...... that should really read....1 Hour 45 minutes.
or maybe you want them to put on the window 2 choices,
1) Would you like to enter this dungeon with you current team?
2) And would you like the exploit map or the Normal map?
If you hired me to paint your house and I told you the paint was going to cost you 400 dollars but it's the best paint you can buy, then I proceed to put white wash on your walls instead, you may not know a thing about paint but you know when something is wrong and act accordingly.
Cheers!
P.S. Stuff moves so fast here you may have missed it but I also put a post here 1 or 2 pages back I believe it is #37.
" May The Wind be Always At Your Back "