I'm honestly shocked and frustrated that PWE has yet to acknowledge what is going on here.
It's not like only a handful of players have been affected; this is very widespread.
they don't have to. it's clearly written in the EULA and TOS.
This whole thread should be locked it's full of toxic comments and people acting stupid because their accounts got banned because they used a known exploit.
If you really don't know what an "Exploit" is then maybe you need to rethink your ethics.
Seriously look at the Account Creation date next to the people posting in this thread! There are a large Majority of banned players on new alt accounts QQ about their accounts being closed.
As I stated, pwe claims ownership of everything. This EULA you agree to when you download, install, and run their game software. End of thread as it pertains to who owns what.
Am I that bad at communicating, or are you people not bothering to read what I write, just responding to what you think I probably wrote?
Yes, that is the status quo. That is what they don't want regulatory agencies to interfere with. That is also exactly what the IRS were working on figuring out how to tax (again, when I last checked about 2 years ago). Ownership is what consumers rights group would become concerned about if large amounts of money were unreasonably handled.
The concern the game companies have is what would happen if the status quo gets challenged, specifically with relation to financial regulations and taxation. (Psst, that's the industry I'm currently in, which is why I knew off the top of my head how financing contracts work.)
Right now the movement of virtual goods is unregulated and untaxed, but that only works if they have no value. The IRS study I read was talking about how to valuate these supposedly valueless virtual goods, especially in light of the fact that annual revenues involving virtual goods and property is over $5 billion worldwide.Aside from the Dutch supreme court ruling, there's been two lawsuits in the Us over these things. One lawsuit against the operator of Second Life was settled out of court, and another is seeking to define the rights of purchasers of property in Second Life.
My point is that the legal status of virtual goods and property, in spite of what EULAs state, is still being defined. It's not something that will simply default to what game companies want, because the biggest challengers to the status quo are actually governments wanting their cut of the pie.
Am I that bad at communicating, or are you people not bothering to read what I write, just responding to what you think I probably wrote?
Yes, that is the status quo. That is what they don't want regulatory agencies to interfere with. That is also exactly what the IRS were working on figuring out how to tax (again, when I last checked about 2 years ago). Ownership is what consumers rights group would become concerned about if large amounts of money were unreasonably handled.
The concern the game companies have is what would happen if the status quo gets challenged, specifically with relation to financial regulations and taxation. (Psst, that's the industry I'm currently in, which is why I knew off the top of my head how financing contracts work.)
Right now the movement of virtual goods is unregulated and untaxed, but that only works if they have no value. The IRS study I read was talking about how to valuate these supposedly valueless virtual goods, especially in light of the fact that annual revenues involving virtual goods and property is over $5 billion worldwide.Aside from the Dutch supreme court ruling, there's been two lawsuits in the Us over these things. One lawsuit against the operator of Second Life was settled out of court, and another is seeking to define the rights of purchasers of property in Second Life.
My point is that the legal status of virtual goods and property, in spite of what EULAs state, is still being defined. It's not something that will simply default to what game companies want, because the biggest challengers to the status quo are actually governments wanting their cut of the pie.
Just like the legalization of POT. So they can TAX and get their cut.
I don't suppose you've kept up to date on what the IRS is doing with respect to taxation of virtual goods? The last time I dug into it was when Blizzard announced their Real Money AH for Diablo 3 and people started grumbling about using Blizzbucks (or whatever).
Just like the legalization of POT. So they can TAX and get their cut.
Pretty much.
The more lawsuits that pop up over virtual goods and property, the more defined the rights of purchasers become, the greater the chance that happens. It's basically bad for the future bottom line (not just in terms of publicity) to screw over people too badly via virtual goods.
In summary: It's their game, their rules to enforce as they see fit, for what they believe is the best interest of the game, whether you, I, or anyone else agrees with it.
It isn't the answer anyone wants to hear but it is what it is. In any event, my statement was made in the effort to curb unnecessary name calling in this thread.
The best inerest of this game seems to be to make as much money as possible.
So your saying they dont ban people perm if they have zen coins for the most part? And buy Zen coins? Well they look over the account. And how are they looking over each account one by one or is it a programed database search to see who has so much coin and bought so much coin. LOL I knew there was legal mumbojumbo that would let them do this. Now isnt that just another slap in the face to people that play the game. If you pay them money and get caught exploiting or what have you, they will give you a slap on the wrist temp ban and such maybe worse. If you dont pay them moneys and get caught they will perm ban you depending on the situation. Why not just add get out of jail free coins to the zen store. IF you get caught doing something you lose the get out of jail coin or have to buy one to not get perm banned. Or they come up with an amount you have to pay to get your charcter unlocked... This would be a great way to make money.
This whole thread should be locked it's full of toxic comments and people acting stupid because their accounts got banned because they used a known exploit.
If you really don't know what an "Exploit" is then maybe you need to rethink your ethics.
Seriously look at the Account Creation date next to the people posting in this thread! There are a large Majority of banned players on new alt accounts QQ about their accounts being closed.
I'm not sure what server you're on, and what it's like there, but on Mindflayer the player base seems to have been cut in half over this issue. MMOs require a large player base in order to function as intended. If you're not sure why, think economy and queues. That's only the beginning.
My account, along with several others that I know of, will NOT be restored in 3 or 7 days. It seems that most will be, but several will not.
I'm honestly shocked and frustrated that PWE has yet to acknowledge what is going on here.
It's not like only a handful of players have been affected; this is very widespread.
I feel the same way... I can't really understand the need to keep everything so hush-hush, quite a few players have been affected by it...
I'm not sure what server you're on, and what it's like there, but on Mindflayer the player base seems to have been cut in half over this issue. MMOs require a large player base in order to function as intended. If you're not sure why, think economy and queues. That's only the beginning.
My account, along with several others that I know of, will NOT be restored in 3 or 7 days. It seems that most will be, but several will not.
How many times did you use the exploit? As I posted previously I know many players that used the exploit once or twice before they realized what was going on and they did not get banned.
Only 2 players I know of used the exploit to farm 500-700 Sparks and didn't get banned. While everyone else farm 100's of sparks got suspended or permanently banned.
Also if you got a Suspension I recommend keeping quiet and learn from the experience and move on.
The players that got permanently banned are the ones that should be upset due to unfair treatment... or it could be those players also have been suspended previously for exploiting.
I'm not sure what server you're on, and what it's like there, but on Mindflayer the player base seems to have been cut in half over this issue. MMOs require a large player base in order to function as intended. If you're not sure why, think economy and queues. That's only the beginning.
My account, along with several others that I know of, will NOT be restored in 3 or 7 days. It seems that most will be, but several will not.
They could at least be consistent on the bans. Why are some 3 days, some 7, and some permanent? I know for several people, this is the first time offense and it's permanent. Others I know have been suspended once, or in one case even TWICE back on pirate's repeated farm and caturday and they are suspended for one week, and they even exploited the nightmare lockboxes and got away with that one as well. How is that fair?
I'm honestly shocked and frustrated that PWE has yet to acknowledge what is going on here.
It's not like only a handful of players have been affected; this is very widespread.
Oh, they've acknowledged it. They're just choosing to ignore us, the players, and the problem, themselves.
They completely lock/remove all threads relating to the ban wave (frankly, I'm surprised this one is still around) and use the old tired excuse that discussion of bans is against forum policies. We're not talking about individual cases here. We're talking about a collective. And we have every right to speak against it. Oh, but we can't because we're silenced every time. Either on here or via tickets. I have sent two tickets disputing my ban, and they've just closed them, saying they were duplicates. Typical.
0
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited August 2013
One of the CMs indicated that you can appeal a ban through Customer Service. Perhaps it would be possible to explain yourself a bit and get a reduced sentence, so to speak?
(I know everyone hates on Customer Service, but I've had to deal with them several times and they've been courteous and helpful.)
How many times did you use the exploit? As I posted previously I know many players that used the exploit once or twice before they realized what was going on and they did not get banned.
Only 2 players I know of used the exploit to farm 500-700 Sparks and didn't get banned. While everyone else farm 100's of sparks got suspended or permanently banned.
So you got temp ban? Do you have zen coin or spent money in the zen store?
They could at least be consistent on the bans. Why are some 3 days, some 7, and some permanent? I know for several people, this is the first time offense and it's permanent. Others I know have been suspended once, or in one case even TWICE back on pirate's repeated farm and caturday and they are suspended for one week, and they even exploited the nightmare lockboxes and got away with that one as well. How is that fair?
Stox - I agree with you and that's my only issue with the whole situation.
Exploiting and being caught and then surprised your account was suspended is just foolish.
I don't suppose you've kept up to date on what the IRS is doing with respect to taxation of virtual goods? The last time I dug into it was when Blizzard announced their Real Money AH for Diablo 3 and people started grumbling about using Blizzbucks (or whatever).
As of right now the only thing in concrete as far as "virtual goods" and taxes is that STATES(note not IRS) are requiring you to report on your state taxes any internet purchases you make through sites like Ebay, amazon, craigslist and other websites that dont always charge sales tax on items. What this does is calculate your particular states sales tax based on what you purchased on the internet that was not allready taxed, You in turn will pay that amount with your state return. They also offer an option for people that dont know what or how much excatly they have purchased on the internet and the amount in sales tax you pay is strictly based on your income and where you live. As far as actualy virtual goods there has been nothing stated as far as tax implications as of yet. As far as MMO RMTs go im not sure what you mean by IRS getting there cut as this money should be reported on there corporate return along with there regular income, if it is not then it could be considered tax evasion.
Also, you may be confusing corporate and individual tax laws. As it is right now individuals who sell internet goods in excess of 599$ through the same online venue(IE Ebay, amazon, craigslist etc.) will get 1099'ed for the money they receive and therefore have to pay tax on it anyways.
So you got temp ban? Do you have zen coin or spent money in the zen store?
Nope I have not been banned or suspended. Nor did anyone from my guild that I am aware of or players I regularly play with.
But you do bring up a good point and maybe that's the direction the banned players should be looking.
1. How many of the suspended/banned players are paying customers?
2. How much money did you spend on your account?
3. Is this your 1st suspension? If not how much $$ have you spent on your account?
4. How long was your suspension?
etc...
Then you can figure out maybe the logic behind the suspension times. Otherwise it could simply be different GM's applied different punishments. Account closures normally go to higher level management and is reviewed and approved.
Nope I have not been banned or suspended. Nor did anyone from my guild that I am aware of or players I regularly play with.
I guess its going to be hard to do a poll i guess for few weeks until the temp ban peoples get back online. I bet the temp bans are people that pay money into this game and the perm bans are people who dont. Just a guess but probly right.
I guess its going to be hard to do a poll i guess for few weeks until the temp ban peoples get back online. I bet the temp bans are people that pay money into this game and the perm bans are people who dont. Just a guess but probly right.
Astute observation.
In my guild, everyone that has paid over a certain amount into the game has received a suspension.
Only players that have not spent over a certain threshold are banned permanently. At least in my guild.
Am I that bad at communicating, or are you people not bothering to read what I write, just responding to what you think I probably wrote?
Yes, that is the status quo. That is what they don't want regulatory agencies to interfere with. That is also exactly what the IRS were working on figuring out how to tax (again, when I last checked about 2 years ago). Ownership is what consumers rights group would become concerned about if large amounts of money were unreasonably handled.
The concern the game companies have is what would happen if the status quo gets challenged, specifically with relation to financial regulations and taxation. (Psst, that's the industry I'm currently in, which is why I knew off the top of my head how financing contracts work.)
Right now the movement of virtual goods is unregulated and untaxed, but that only works if they have no value. The IRS study I read was talking about how to valuate these supposedly valueless virtual goods, especially in light of the fact that annual revenues involving virtual goods and property is over $5 billion worldwide.Aside from the Dutch supreme court ruling, there's been two lawsuits in the Us over these things. One lawsuit against the operator of Second Life was settled out of court, and another is seeking to define the rights of purchasers of property in Second Life.
My point is that the legal status of virtual goods and property, in spite of what EULAs state, is still being defined. It's not something that will simply default to what game companies want, because the biggest challengers to the status quo are actually governments wanting their cut of the pie.
That is wonderfully informative, though the source is a blog. It is from an analytics company specifically targeting MMOs and other virtual proprietors, so it has relevance. Anyone who is in the process of engaging pwe/cryptic over virtual assets should find this useful.
However, if all we are going to do is gesticulate at our screens at one another and postulate on cryptic's/pwe's lack of response or over-response then the only hard piece of definition we have is the EULA. A state of being defined does not mean that is now the definition of how it now is. They will stand by their EULA, so that makes all this speculation about the state of virtual goods less relevant because the terms will not change until the appropriate legislation is in place.
directors usually have secretaries and rarely handle individual issues and even though multiple people got busted for the same exploit, each case is handled individually. and that explains why some people were temp banned, some were perma banned. no where in the TOS or EULA does it state that anyone gets a first time offender break. it simply states that they handle every situation on a case by case basis and at their own discretion. and those cases are between pwe and the individual. how they make those decisions are probably based on internal guidelines that they aren't required to make public.
also, i would imagine that this extension will likely be changed or deleted soon.
said it before will say it again 3 day 7 day perma ban depend on how much you exploited and if u had ban before if u exploited a lot or got temp ban before good chance u get perma ban.
Also would like to say thanks to devs mods for not closing this topic nice to let ppl air the views and this is doing no one any harm so thanks a lot for not locking it
33 pages about people getting banned? So many people got busted, I guess you thought it was okay since nobody got punished for nightmare thursday. So happy I DON'T exploit and even though that new summer event is easily exploitable, It's not worth it.
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directors usually have secretaries and rarely handle individual issues and even though multiple people got busted for the same exploit, each case is handled individually. and that explains why some people were temp banned, some were perma banned. no where in the TOS or EULA does it state that anyone gets a first time offender break. it simply states that they handle every situation on a case by case basis and at their own discretion. and those cases are between pwe and the individual. how they make those decisions are probably based on internal guidelines that they aren't required to make public.
good luck.
In my guild:
People that did the quest more than me have not (yet) been "forcibly disconnected" and banned.
People that did the quest more than me have received a 7 day suspension.
People that did the quest more than me have received a permanent ban.
People that did the quest LESS than me have received a permanent ban.
Accounts that still have the quest on level 15 characters have received no action.
You are correct. This is being handled on a case by case basis.
We are just not sure what the criteria is for each level of action.
In my guild:
People that did the quest more than me have not (yet) been "forcibly disconnected" and banned.
People that did the quest more than me have received a 7 day suspension.
People that did the quest more than me have received a permanent ban.
People that did the quest LESS than me have received a permanent ban.
Accounts that still have the quest on level 15 characters have received no action.
You are correct. This is being handled on a case by case basis.
We are just not sure what the criteria is for each level of action.
This! Plus in some cases repeat offenders, people who have been suspended already have managed to get away with yet another suspension.
As far as MMO RMTs go im not sure what you mean by IRS getting there cut as this money should be reported on there corporate return along with there regular income, if it is not then it could be considered tax evasion.
Also, you may be confusing corporate and individual tax laws. As it is right now individuals who sell internet goods in excess of 599$ through the same online venue(IE Ebay, amazon, craigslist etc.) will get 1099'ed for the money they receive and therefore have to pay tax on it anyways.
No no, I'm not talking about sales of goods over the internet, but sales of virtual goods.
For example, selling a Vorpal Hammer o' Woundin' an' Returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-Out-Yer-Bum for $50 USD on an in-game auction house. So the seller earned $50 USD, but there's (as far as I know) no sales tax when that transaction occurs.
Not to mention what happens if the buyer is in California paying $50 USD, and the seller is earning that amount in Euros over in...uh, Italy or something.
Comments
they don't have to. it's clearly written in the EULA and TOS.
If you really don't know what an "Exploit" is then maybe you need to rethink your ethics.
Seriously look at the Account Creation date next to the people posting in this thread! There are a large Majority of banned players on new alt accounts QQ about their accounts being closed.
Yes, that is the status quo. That is what they don't want regulatory agencies to interfere with. That is also exactly what the IRS were working on figuring out how to tax (again, when I last checked about 2 years ago). Ownership is what consumers rights group would become concerned about if large amounts of money were unreasonably handled.
The concern the game companies have is what would happen if the status quo gets challenged, specifically with relation to financial regulations and taxation. (Psst, that's the industry I'm currently in, which is why I knew off the top of my head how financing contracts work.)
Right now the movement of virtual goods is unregulated and untaxed, but that only works if they have no value. The IRS study I read was talking about how to valuate these supposedly valueless virtual goods, especially in light of the fact that annual revenues involving virtual goods and property is over $5 billion worldwide.Aside from the Dutch supreme court ruling, there's been two lawsuits in the Us over these things. One lawsuit against the operator of Second Life was settled out of court, and another is seeking to define the rights of purchasers of property in Second Life.
My point is that the legal status of virtual goods and property, in spite of what EULAs state, is still being defined. It's not something that will simply default to what game companies want, because the biggest challengers to the status quo are actually governments wanting their cut of the pie.
Just like the legalization of POT. So they can TAX and get their cut.
Pretty much.
The more lawsuits that pop up over virtual goods and property, the more defined the rights of purchasers become, the greater the chance that happens. It's basically bad for the future bottom line (not just in terms of publicity) to screw over people too badly via virtual goods.
The best inerest of this game seems to be to make as much money as possible.
So your saying they dont ban people perm if they have zen coins for the most part? And buy Zen coins? Well they look over the account. And how are they looking over each account one by one or is it a programed database search to see who has so much coin and bought so much coin. LOL I knew there was legal mumbojumbo that would let them do this. Now isnt that just another slap in the face to people that play the game. If you pay them money and get caught exploiting or what have you, they will give you a slap on the wrist temp ban and such maybe worse. If you dont pay them moneys and get caught they will perm ban you depending on the situation. Why not just add get out of jail free coins to the zen store. IF you get caught doing something you lose the get out of jail coin or have to buy one to not get perm banned. Or they come up with an amount you have to pay to get your charcter unlocked... This would be a great way to make money.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?472981-What-can-cryptic-sell-without-destroying-their-game-further
I'm not sure what server you're on, and what it's like there, but on Mindflayer the player base seems to have been cut in half over this issue. MMOs require a large player base in order to function as intended. If you're not sure why, think economy and queues. That's only the beginning.
My account, along with several others that I know of, will NOT be restored in 3 or 7 days. It seems that most will be, but several will not.
I feel the same way... I can't really understand the need to keep everything so hush-hush, quite a few players have been affected by it...
How many times did you use the exploit? As I posted previously I know many players that used the exploit once or twice before they realized what was going on and they did not get banned.
Only 2 players I know of used the exploit to farm 500-700 Sparks and didn't get banned. While everyone else farm 100's of sparks got suspended or permanently banned.
The players that got permanently banned are the ones that should be upset due to unfair treatment... or it could be those players also have been suspended previously for exploiting.
They could at least be consistent on the bans. Why are some 3 days, some 7, and some permanent? I know for several people, this is the first time offense and it's permanent. Others I know have been suspended once, or in one case even TWICE back on pirate's repeated farm and caturday and they are suspended for one week, and they even exploited the nightmare lockboxes and got away with that one as well. How is that fair?
They completely lock/remove all threads relating to the ban wave (frankly, I'm surprised this one is still around) and use the old tired excuse that discussion of bans is against forum policies. We're not talking about individual cases here. We're talking about a collective. And we have every right to speak against it. Oh, but we can't because we're silenced every time. Either on here or via tickets. I have sent two tickets disputing my ban, and they've just closed them, saying they were duplicates. Typical.
(I know everyone hates on Customer Service, but I've had to deal with them several times and they've been courteous and helpful.)
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
So you got temp ban? Do you have zen coin or spent money in the zen store?
Stox - I agree with you and that's my only issue with the whole situation.
Exploiting and being caught and then surprised your account was suspended is just foolish.
As of right now the only thing in concrete as far as "virtual goods" and taxes is that STATES(note not IRS) are requiring you to report on your state taxes any internet purchases you make through sites like Ebay, amazon, craigslist and other websites that dont always charge sales tax on items. What this does is calculate your particular states sales tax based on what you purchased on the internet that was not allready taxed, You in turn will pay that amount with your state return. They also offer an option for people that dont know what or how much excatly they have purchased on the internet and the amount in sales tax you pay is strictly based on your income and where you live. As far as actualy virtual goods there has been nothing stated as far as tax implications as of yet. As far as MMO RMTs go im not sure what you mean by IRS getting there cut as this money should be reported on there corporate return along with there regular income, if it is not then it could be considered tax evasion.
Also, you may be confusing corporate and individual tax laws. As it is right now individuals who sell internet goods in excess of 599$ through the same online venue(IE Ebay, amazon, craigslist etc.) will get 1099'ed for the money they receive and therefore have to pay tax on it anyways.
Nope I have not been banned or suspended. Nor did anyone from my guild that I am aware of or players I regularly play with.
But you do bring up a good point and maybe that's the direction the banned players should be looking.
1. How many of the suspended/banned players are paying customers?
2. How much money did you spend on your account?
3. Is this your 1st suspension? If not how much $$ have you spent on your account?
4. How long was your suspension?
etc...
Then you can figure out maybe the logic behind the suspension times. Otherwise it could simply be different GM's applied different punishments. Account closures normally go to higher level management and is reviewed and approved.
Try logging in to gateway. If it says that you are banned, you are banned forever.
You can also try sending a support ticket. That's how I found out.
I guess its going to be hard to do a poll i guess for few weeks until the temp ban peoples get back online. I bet the temp bans are people that pay money into this game and the perm bans are people who dont. Just a guess but probly right.
Astute observation.
In my guild, everyone that has paid over a certain amount into the game has received a suspension.
Only players that have not spent over a certain threshold are banned permanently. At least in my guild.
That is wonderfully informative, though the source is a blog. It is from an analytics company specifically targeting MMOs and other virtual proprietors, so it has relevance. Anyone who is in the process of engaging pwe/cryptic over virtual assets should find this useful.
However, if all we are going to do is gesticulate at our screens at one another and postulate on cryptic's/pwe's lack of response or over-response then the only hard piece of definition we have is the EULA. A state of being defined does not mean that is now the definition of how it now is. They will stand by their EULA, so that makes all this speculation about the state of virtual goods less relevant because the terms will not change until the appropriate legislation is in place.
glassdoor.com - Cryptic Studios Review
also, i would imagine that this extension will likely be changed or deleted soon.
good luck.
Also would like to say thanks to devs mods for not closing this topic nice to let ppl air the views and this is doing no one any harm so thanks a lot for not locking it
PinkSugar, lvl 60 CW.
Baby Cakes, lvl 60 GWF.
*******, lvl 60 TR.
Premium Juicebox, lvl 60 CW.
Pink Exxxtacy, Ranger
There is NO pvp in Neverwinter.
In my guild:
People that did the quest more than me have not (yet) been "forcibly disconnected" and banned.
People that did the quest more than me have received a 7 day suspension.
People that did the quest more than me have received a permanent ban.
People that did the quest LESS than me have received a permanent ban.
Accounts that still have the quest on level 15 characters have received no action.
You are correct. This is being handled on a case by case basis.
We are just not sure what the criteria is for each level of action.
This! Plus in some cases repeat offenders, people who have been suspended already have managed to get away with yet another suspension.
No no, I'm not talking about sales of goods over the internet, but sales of virtual goods.
For example, selling a Vorpal Hammer o' Woundin' an' Returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-Out-Yer-Bum for $50 USD on an in-game auction house. So the seller earned $50 USD, but there's (as far as I know) no sales tax when that transaction occurs.
Not to mention what happens if the buyer is in California paying $50 USD, and the seller is earning that amount in Euros over in...uh, Italy or something.