I dunno, I just think all of cribstaxxx's games have been premades vs pugs, or at the least, premades vs terrible premades.
I've yet to get a single answer as to why the generic, tried and tested method of "punt cleric out of circle, stunlock to death" is never, ever deployed against this mythical ubercleric. Or, if they're dodging like a pro, "force choke/freeze cleric long enough for someone to punt cleric out of circle, stunlock to death". These are pretty established tactics, given that clerics are renowned for their fabulous lack of CC resist.
K I had to make one last response... Lol you seriously get 1 shot by TR? you would have to be stacking no defense and not using feated foresight and he would have to have P. vorpal and using lurkers. Not to mention, once again, enchants make a huge difference. In the last pvp he said he was actually healed by a lashing blade, as it procced all of his tranquils and he was in astral shield.
Edit: Cleric is not equal to any other class, they are not meant to 1v1. PvP is not won by killing other players 1v1, or even killing at all.
You don't even own a 60 DC in the first place so why do you even talk ?
A 13K TR doesn't need Lurker to obliterate clerics. He simply needs lashing and impact shot.
You were talking about balanced premade PVP with equal gear, and a 13k cleric can't handle a 13k TR, because the damage output is too high and you would have no time for healing. Plus in PVP you have a great number of Controls so you may be stunlocked to death. So claiming removing Righteousness would turn the clerics into OP is kinda ridiculous.
As for the defense.. Yeah I am not stacking defense, I am not a tank, I am support/healer. I have 2300 defense.
Would you tell control wizards to go full defense in order to be able to PVP ? Yeah right, they don't need it, cause they are not overnerfed.
morsitans, when terrain allowed I would position the circle near a wall, then position myself so that if I'm punted or pushed I am still in the circle. Also, with enough defense and hp stacking, the damage from being punted out of the circle can be negligible. Then it's just a matter of waiting for the other team to be finished unleashing their skills on you while you dash back into the circle for more hp and keep up the heal trolling. My cleric also had max wisdom for reduced cc time and better heals.
I find these threads about clerics being weak in pvp funny, because my cleric was actually so broken I started only pvping with all my jewelry unequipped or while wearing t1 pvp set without enchantments.
I dunno, I just think all of cribstaxxx's games have been premades vs pugs, or at the least, premades vs terrible premades.
I've yet to get a single answer as to why the generic, tried and tested method of "punt cleric out of circle, stunlock to death" is never, ever deployed against this mythical ubercleric. Or, if they're dodging like a pro, "force choke/freeze cleric long enough for someone to punt cleric out of circle, stunlock to death". These are pretty established tactics, given that clerics are renowned for their fabulous lack of CC resist.
B/c the cleric has a CW and 2 GF's to keep the enemies off of him. 2 frontlines 2 bull charges and tons of freeze from CW is way more than enough to keep the cleric healing away.
@ rabbinicus exactly. The cleric can already live for a long time, now compound that with very high crit chance + P. vorpal and P. soulforged and you have insane heals for the entire team + super tankiness. I realize that only 3-5% of clerics realize and utilize this in PvP but we can't remove the 40% and just make those good clerics completely unstoppable...
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
You don't even own a 60 DC in the first place so why do you even talk ?
A 13K TR doesn't need Lurker to obliterate clerics. He simply needs lashing and impact shot.
You were talking about balanced premade PVP with equal gear, and a 13k cleric can't handle a 13k TR, because the damage output is too high and you would have no time for healing. Plus in PVP you have a great number of Controls so you may be stunlocked to death. So claiming removing Righteousness would turn the clerics into OP is kinda ridiculous.
As for the defense.. Yeah I am not stacking defense, I am not a tank, I am support/healer. I have 2300 defense.
Would you tell control wizards to go full defense in order to be able to PVP ? Yeah right, they don't need it, cause they are not overnerfed.
Why would you compare yourself to a TR? Of course a support/healer is going to die to the single target DPS assassin class eventually 1v1. Is PvP a series of 1v1's? If all you play is pug matches then of course you have a terrible view of pvp b/c no one is defending you like they should be.
Yes I am speaking 2nd hand but I am on vent with him at the same time, and he has said on many occasions that if righteousness were not there he would simply never die in 95% of matches. Also we have multiple BiS TR's with P. Vorpal and Gtene's and he still doesn't die very often at all. Only when fully debuffed (my CW reduces mitigation by 110% and -1350 armor) can he be brought down quickly
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
You clearly have no idea what 60 PVP with end gear looks like.
It's a zerg fest where 12k+ TR can OS or two shot anyone and spam impact shot.
It's a place where a single GWF is unkillable unless you gang bang him 5 vs 1 and still that way you will need much time in order to get him out of your node and he might kill 1 or 2 people before you kill him.
It's a place where good traumaturge control wizards can 100% control clerics to death.
And it's a place where the cleric is the #1 target and dies in a few seconds to a geared TR.
EDIT: Yeah it's not 1 vs 1, so getting rid of Righteousness wouldn't make cleric OP, cause it's a team game with controls and crazy TR damage. Ty.
B/c the cleric has a CW and 2 GF's to keep the enemies off of him. 2 frontlines 2 bull charges and tons of freeze from CW is way more than enough to keep the cleric healing away.
So you're using 3 dudes to protect your one 'unkillable' guy. Yup, requiring three bodyguards sounds like the textbook definition of unkillable, to me. What's your one remaining dude doing? Capping two points by himself?
And why, if having a cleric is so **** OP, is the enemy cleric not a problem?
@ rabbinicus exactly. The cleric can already live for a long time, now compound that with very high crit chance + P. vorpal and P. soulforged and you have insane heals for the entire team + super tankiness. I realize that only 3-5% of clerics realize and utilize this in PvP but we can't remove the 40% and just make those good clerics completely unstoppable...
Which is part of the problem since it means that most DC's suffer because of the most geared out players. It's a very significant balancing challenge, and I think (hope) everyone here gets that. It once again highlights the need for different PvE and PvP mechanics, a challenge that seems to be the root cause of most of the complaints on the forum. There has to be a happy medium that makes DC's a bit more player friendly and enjoyable in PvE. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy playing my DC and now have him solidly geared to the point where it is not painful to solo high level instances. But he is still penalized in a way that doesn't make a ton of sense from a gameplay perspective.
I wish I had a perfect vorpal and perfect soulforged on my DC (especially on my blue gear for PvP), but even without them it is a matter of solid teamwork and playing with at least a little bit of strategy. DC's are in my estimation the most difficult class to play in PvP UNLESS you are a)specifically geared for it, b)have a playstyle that you enjoy, c)a solid team with good communication (always the most important thing in PvP), and d) facing people who think that winning is about killing everyone and not capping points. Too many DC's just try to stand in their circles when the GF's come running and that's really not a winning strategy.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
You clearly have no idea what 60 PVP with end gear looks like.
It's a zerg fest where 12k+ TR can OS or two shot anyone and spam impact shot.
It's a place where a single GWF is unkillable unless you gang bang him 5 vs 1 and still that way you will need much time in order to get him out of your node and he might kill 1 or 2 people before you kill him.
It's a place where good traumaturge control wizards can 100% control clerics to death.
And it's a place where the cleric is the #1 target and dies in a few seconds to a geared TR.
EDIT: Yeah it's not 1 vs 1, so getting rid of Righteousness wouldn't make cleric OP, cause it's a team game with controls and crazy TR damage. Ty.
I do have an excellent idea of what level 60 PvP with end game gear looks like. The only time I am one or two shotted by a TR on any of my characters is when I am careless and they're lucky or frankly better than I am. GWF's are killable if you don't try to take them at their own game, just as GF's are. A cleric shouldn't fall in a few seconds to the geared TR unless the cleric is not well geared, careless, or the TR manages to get their whole rotation off.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
cribstaxx, my cleric could stalemate anyone 1v1 unless caught off guard and then enemy got lucky with crits. I think the majority of people complaining about cleric survivability have 20k hp and 2k defense.
I dunno, I just think all of cribstaxxx's games have been premades vs pugs, or at the least, premades vs terrible premades.
I've yet to get a single answer as to why the generic, tried and tested method of "punt cleric out of circle, stunlock to death" is never, ever deployed against this mythical ubercleric. Or, if they're dodging like a pro, "force choke/freeze cleric long enough for someone to punt cleric out of circle, stunlock to death". These are pretty established tactics, given that clerics are renowned for their fabulous lack of CC resist.
I think he meant if clerics had cc immune skills like a tr they would be immortal. This is the only way I die, even with 3 people on me I can outheal them UNTIL I'm cc'd then it's lights out. Most of the problem IS people don't know how to play. If you see people ganging up on the cleric why not help the cleric? In gaunt, and I'm on cw I always try and protect the dc since every stupid rogue go after dc if it's not just me standing there so it's easy to kill them.
Queen of Dragon Server
Goddess Uniique, lvl 60 DC.
PinkSugar, lvl 60 CW.
Baby Cakes, lvl 60 GWF.
*******, lvl 60 TR.
Premium Juicebox, lvl 60 CW.
Pink Exxxtacy, Ranger There is NO pvp in Neverwinter.
Sigh... Whatever. But its not about it. Its about Righteousness and why is it total nonsense - because it IS total nonsense. There is no reasonable explanation for this kind of crippling clerics, and even if it would be true a super-hyper-ultra-top geared cleric can do quite well in arena (I still dont belive he does better than someone equaly or even a bit worse equipped but other class, actually I think the team would be better off with some decently geared and skilled tank or dps, mind you). it is simply irrelevant.
Why? because survivability in pvp depends on defence much more than on healing in this case.
Not to mention that clerics in general are free kills in pvp, you really want to argue with that? Or you want to say that most of clerics are noo... that dont know how to play (oh yes, it must be it, there is much higher percentage of n**bs among clerisc than among other classes, thats why statistics look so bad for them). And that wont change even if we could get +40% selfheal, whistlingdixie explained why.
In my opinion, righteousness hurts more in pve (especially when running solo), where fights are in general longer, there is more kiting, and healing speed is actually a factor.
You clearly have no idea what 60 PVP with end gear looks like.
It's a zerg fest where 12k+ TR can OS or two shot anyone and spam impact shot.
It's a place where a single GWF is unkillable unless you gang bang him 5 vs 1 and still that way you will need much time in order to get him out of your node and he might kill 1 or 2 people before you kill him.
It's a place where good traumaturge control wizards can 100% control clerics to death.
And it's a place where the cleric is the #1 target and dies in a few seconds to a geared TR.
EDIT: Yeah it's not 1 vs 1, so getting rid of Righteousness wouldn't make cleric OP, cause it's a team game with controls and crazy TR damage. Ty.
I have one of those thaum wizards, and a super tanky GWF heh. My CW with 0 bonus defense (ie only what high viz gives + the 4 set buff if active) Has only been 1 shot by a TR ONE time, this particular TR has P. Vorpal, 7 Gtene's and 2500+ ArP.
My GWF has 37k HP, 42% deflect (used to be 54% before the patch =/) 1800 regen ticks, 3200 defense. It does take 5 pugs to kill me, 2-3 really good players can make me retreat from my point though. That being said my friends cleric is as tanky as my GWF AND he can heal everyone else too. I'm sorry if you can't replicate those results, but the fact remains that those results are possible and the ability to tank 3-4 players AND heal all team members for huge numbers would be simply unstoppable if they buffed self heals by 40%. Again I am telling you that it is possible as I have seen it even vs. some of the best geared/played characters on the server.
Even once they focus him down the first time by the time his 6 second soulforged is up he's back at 75%+ with temp HP over 100%, it's just craziness with incredible gear.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Many cleric heal spell applies to himself as well. For example, sun burst, healing word, and soothing light. If all of these skills healed him without the 40% handicap, he would be healing himself far more than he would be healing other teammates.
I agree with your claim that clerics in general are free kills in pvp, but that's because a lot of clerics think hp and defense aren't important, or they try to use damage passives and feats. The right way to play cleric in pvp is to be an annoying heal troll. 80-90% of pvp games, assuming they don't rage quit, enemies first attack me, then realize I'm almost unkillable, then go for other players around me.
Your argument is irrelevant for a very simple reason. The tankiness you are talking about relies on Astral Shield or Forgemaster.
Righteousness doesn't lower AS/FF heals. Removing it wouldn't make AS/FF heal more.
If you have never seen any TR able to OS you it's either because you only play vs noobs, or because the said TRs rather save their daily to OS clerics. A 12k+ with g/p vorpal doesn't need daily to roflstomp clerics, though.
Astral Shield kinda sux in PVP anyway, because 3 classes out of 5 can knock you out of your circle very easilly.
When it comes to tanking 3 or 4 people, Forgemaster (pre-bugged) used to be much more effective.
Geez, does it raelly make such difference if you are 1 shoted or 2 shoted (unless it requires daily, but as far as I know, encouner can do that)
Why yes it does, b/c if you're 2 shotted that means that after he uses lashing blade you might have temp hp and free healing from multiple feats, your soulforged will go off giving you even more time, you have time to place an AS and cast a couple heals. Pretty much you could be back to 50%+ pretty easily as long as TR didn't kill you in 1 shot, which that should never happen.
Again I fully agree with removing righteous outside of PvP
As I said my CW with like 750 defense (26k HP though) Has only been one shot one time and it was by a TR with absolute BiS gear and using Lurkers, so it should never happen to a cleric with 2k defense and using foresight.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
AS cannot crit and heals for around 450 per tick.
My FF used to crit 42% of the time for 3500-3900hp per second. It makes you far more tanky than AS.
Both AS and FF in pvp is not of great use, better to pick only one of those (or only use AS in non-divine), and I find FF to be much much more effective (well before it got bugged). Even with the nerf, I am still hard to kill, but the lower GS cleric must badly suffer from it.
Veramis: the 40% debuff for heals that also give healback would actually be fine with me. It's kinda the point: you're healing someone else but wooo bonus heals for joo!
The problem is that it's ACTUALLY giving both peeps the same heals, then debuffing those you receive. Which means that if you cast a healing word on yourself, you being the ONLY recipient, you get only 60% of the benefit. Healing word is over two and a half times more efficient if you DON'T cast it on yourself. If you're being focus-fired and you need to save yourself with a HW, you should cast it on literally ANYONE else, because it's only going to give you gimpy heals anyway, and at least the latter approach also heals someone else. Same for soothing light (except..well, lol soothing light).
I wouldn't mind if soothing light and HW only gave you a 60% healback if used on someone else, but if cast on myself, to save my own <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> from the fire, I would very much like them to work at full strength. It'd be very nice to get sunburst and seal heals at full whack too, ofc. But as uri92 points out, two of our major heals (D-AS and D-FF) are not affected by righteousness, which is one of the reasons they're so incredibly useful.
AS cannot crit and heals for around 450 per tick.
My FF used to crit 42% of the time for 3500-3900hp per second. It makes you far more tanky than AS.
Both AS and FF in pvp is not of great use, better to pick only one of those, and I find FF to be much much more effective (well before it got bugged). Even with the nerf, I am still hard to kill, but the lower GS cleric must badly suffer from it.
My only conclusion as to why you are not getting good pvp results is that you must be both specced and geared for PvE. It doesn't matter how good your heals are if your defenses are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in PvP. The righteousness paragon path + feated foresight does wonders for survivability, as well as stacking some def/defl/hp. Any class specced and geared for pvp is going to multiple times better at it even with lower GS.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Veramis, first, ofc cleric apply heal to himself, however its healing word only. And AS, but thats when he heals his team. Sunburst heal? Dont make me laugh (not to mention that who uses sunburst in pvp? Unless if lower lvls. We have only 3 encounter slots, cant be wasted for something that does nothing) . Soothing light? Stupid waste of divine power that could be better used for, lets say AS. Or even FF - if they fix it, better heal than soothing light.
But ok, he can heal himself more than other teammates, but a)thats because he NEEDS more healing. If his teammates would need more, he would proly heal them and b)can he really outheal damage?
And, you really want to say that most of clerics doesnt know how to play? Because in other cases than pvp, defence is not really most important. You cant have everything, higher defence means lower something else (like, power?)
Veramis: the 40% debuff for heals that also give healback would actually be fine with me. It's kinda the point: you're healing someone else but wooo bonus heals for joo!
The problem is that it's ACTUALLY giving both peeps the same heals, then debuffing those you receive. Which means that if you cast a healing word on yourself, you being the ONLY recipient, you get only 60% of the benefit. Healing word is over two and a half times more efficient if you DON'T cast it on yourself. If you're being focus-fired and you need to save yourself with a HW, you should cast it on literally ANYONE else, because it's only going to give you gimpy heals anyway, and at least the latter approach also heals someone else. Same for soothing light (except..well, lol soothing light).
I wouldn't mind if soothing light and HW only gave you a 60% healback if used on someone else, but if cast on myself, to save my own <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> from the fire, I would very much like them to work at full strength. It'd be very nice to get sunburst and seal heals at full whack too, ofc. But as uri92 points out, two of our major heals (D-AS and D-FF) are not affected by righteousness, which is one of the reasons they're so incredibly useful.
Lol if you're using healing word in PvP I think that's your first problem.
again I'm not a skill expert on cleric but from what I've heard (Constant out loud laughter on vent) clerics that use HW in PvP are not the greatest =P
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Astral shield ticks a lot more than FF, and with 33% defense DR+11% foresight+20% astral shield, I had DR of over 64% when AS was up. Throw in HG and I had 94%, which actually caps at 80% but not before reducing a lot of the enemies' armor piercing. Choosing FF without AS is just laughable and tells me all I need to know about where you're coming from.
Well thank you I have no problem with my PVP results, they are fine. Once again you're talking though you have no clue, like when you're talking about DC so you don't have a 60 DC yourself.
What I am pointing is that clerics with average gear can't do anything in PVP because of that Righteousness cutting they alreayd poor heals in 40%. Those clerics are the majority, you know ?
Of course with my 13k GS etc I am hard to kill though not impossible, but not all the clerics have such survivability that they can survive even with that Righteousness.
Since you play CW, how about adding a new class mechanic passive to the CW ?
Like a passive which lower the duration of all the CC on the enemies by 40%. Would be fun.
Veramis, first, ofc cleric apply heal to himself, however its healing word only. And AS, but thats when he heals his team. Sunburst heal? Dont make me laugh (not to mention that who uses sunburst in pvp? Unless if lower lvls. We have only 3 encounter slots, cant be wasted for something that does nothing) . Soothing light? Stupid waste of divine power that could be better used for, lets say AS. Or even FF - if they fix it, better heal than soothing light.
But ok, he can heal himself more than other teammates, but a)thats because he NEEDS more healing. If his teammates would need more, he would proly heal them and b)can he really outheal damage?
And, you really want to say that most of clerics doesnt know how to play? Because in other cases than pvp, defence is not really most important. You cant have everything, higher defence means lower something else (like, power?)
Exactly which is why I'm saying those specced and geared for pvp are going to have vastly different results. Don't post how clerics are weak in PvP when you're specced and geared for PvE.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
cribstaxxx, healing word is the most reliable way of generating both AP and divinity after sunburst nerf. I always use it in pvp, if I need divinity, I just throw one or two and two seconds later whala I have more than one extra pip of divinity. If I need action point desperately, I sacrifice all my healing word charges and divine healing words, the instant heals from divine healing word often being enough to keep me alive until I have enough AP for hallowed ground.
Why yes it does, b/c if you're 2 shotted that means that after he uses lashing blade you might have temp hp and free healing from multiple feats, your soulforged will go off giving you even more time, you have time to place an AS and cast a couple heals. Pretty much you could be back to 50%+ pretty easily as long as TR didn't kill you in 1 shot, which that should never happen.
Again I fully agree with removing righteous outside of PvP
As I said my CW with like 750 defense (26k HP though) Has only been one shot one time and it was by a TR with absolute BiS gear and using Lurkers, so it should never happen to a cleric with 2k defense and using foresight.
You cant be serious. Primo, why you think I have soulforget in first place? Does everyone has that?
Secundo, so you think between one of encounter and another I have time to place AS and a couple of other heals? Oh yes, TR will be standing there and thinking: "oh what should I use next? Lashing blade or dazing strike?" Not to mention that if he would use dazing strike as first, I could do nothing at all.
Tertio: AS and HW could not heal even half of damage he did with the first srtike (they heal over time, mind you)
ulviel, sunburst is fantastic for moving enemies away from you and building divinity (but not action point anymore). Soothing light is what you use when after throwing all your heals at a teammate getting ganged on, and you have nothing else to heal him with. Soothing light was also buffed this patch.
Sorry guys I have to say you guys all have things confused. Cleric is actually overpowered in pvp, and I've been telling cryptic they have to nerf them especially AS. I don't know what planet you guys live on but it sounds very interesting.
Well thank you I have no problem with my PVP results, they are fine. Once again you're talking though you have no clue, like when you're talking about DC so you don't have a 60 DC yourself.
What I am pointing is that clerics with average gear can't do anything in PVP because of that Righteousness cutting they alreayd poor heals in 40%. Those clerics are the majority, you know ?
Of course with my 13k GS etc I am hard to kill though not impossible, but not all the clerics have such survivability that they can survive even with that Righteousness.
Since you play CW, how about adding a new class mechanic passive to the CW ?
Like a passive with lower the duration of all the CC on the enemies by 40%. Would be fun.
actually it would be CC is 40% more effective on CW, but that would be a little dumb as GF's can already prone juggle us to death without getting extra CC.
So you already have good pvp results without BiS enchants? Imagine if you had absolute BiS enchants, and then add in +40% healing to yourself... Then you would be truly unkillable, which is why they aren't going to remove it.
I agree that undergeared DC's are hurt too much by it. I agree that it has no place in PvE. But I'm just letting you know (since this post was originally about them changing/removing righteous) that they are not going to remove it b/c it would make the well geared clerics able to hold points indefinitely while also healing their team.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Comments
I've yet to get a single answer as to why the generic, tried and tested method of "punt cleric out of circle, stunlock to death" is never, ever deployed against this mythical ubercleric. Or, if they're dodging like a pro, "force choke/freeze cleric long enough for someone to punt cleric out of circle, stunlock to death". These are pretty established tactics, given that clerics are renowned for their fabulous lack of CC resist.
You don't even own a 60 DC in the first place so why do you even talk ?
A 13K TR doesn't need Lurker to obliterate clerics. He simply needs lashing and impact shot.
You were talking about balanced premade PVP with equal gear, and a 13k cleric can't handle a 13k TR, because the damage output is too high and you would have no time for healing. Plus in PVP you have a great number of Controls so you may be stunlocked to death. So claiming removing Righteousness would turn the clerics into OP is kinda ridiculous.
As for the defense.. Yeah I am not stacking defense, I am not a tank, I am support/healer. I have 2300 defense.
Would you tell control wizards to go full defense in order to be able to PVP ? Yeah right, they don't need it, cause they are not overnerfed.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
I find these threads about clerics being weak in pvp funny, because my cleric was actually so broken I started only pvping with all my jewelry unequipped or while wearing t1 pvp set without enchantments.
B/c the cleric has a CW and 2 GF's to keep the enemies off of him. 2 frontlines 2 bull charges and tons of freeze from CW is way more than enough to keep the cleric healing away.
@ rabbinicus exactly. The cleric can already live for a long time, now compound that with very high crit chance + P. vorpal and P. soulforged and you have insane heals for the entire team + super tankiness. I realize that only 3-5% of clerics realize and utilize this in PvP but we can't remove the 40% and just make those good clerics completely unstoppable...
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Why would you compare yourself to a TR? Of course a support/healer is going to die to the single target DPS assassin class eventually 1v1. Is PvP a series of 1v1's? If all you play is pug matches then of course you have a terrible view of pvp b/c no one is defending you like they should be.
Yes I am speaking 2nd hand but I am on vent with him at the same time, and he has said on many occasions that if righteousness were not there he would simply never die in 95% of matches. Also we have multiple BiS TR's with P. Vorpal and Gtene's and he still doesn't die very often at all. Only when fully debuffed (my CW reduces mitigation by 110% and -1350 armor) can he be brought down quickly
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
It's a zerg fest where 12k+ TR can OS or two shot anyone and spam impact shot.
It's a place where a single GWF is unkillable unless you gang bang him 5 vs 1 and still that way you will need much time in order to get him out of your node and he might kill 1 or 2 people before you kill him.
It's a place where good traumaturge control wizards can 100% control clerics to death.
And it's a place where the cleric is the #1 target and dies in a few seconds to a geared TR.
EDIT: Yeah it's not 1 vs 1, so getting rid of Righteousness wouldn't make cleric OP, cause it's a team game with controls and crazy TR damage. Ty.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
So you're using 3 dudes to protect your one 'unkillable' guy. Yup, requiring three bodyguards sounds like the textbook definition of unkillable, to me. What's your one remaining dude doing? Capping two points by himself?
And why, if having a cleric is so **** OP, is the enemy cleric not a problem?
Which is part of the problem since it means that most DC's suffer because of the most geared out players. It's a very significant balancing challenge, and I think (hope) everyone here gets that. It once again highlights the need for different PvE and PvP mechanics, a challenge that seems to be the root cause of most of the complaints on the forum. There has to be a happy medium that makes DC's a bit more player friendly and enjoyable in PvE. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy playing my DC and now have him solidly geared to the point where it is not painful to solo high level instances. But he is still penalized in a way that doesn't make a ton of sense from a gameplay perspective.
I wish I had a perfect vorpal and perfect soulforged on my DC (especially on my blue gear for PvP), but even without them it is a matter of solid teamwork and playing with at least a little bit of strategy. DC's are in my estimation the most difficult class to play in PvP UNLESS you are a)specifically geared for it, b)have a playstyle that you enjoy, c)a solid team with good communication (always the most important thing in PvP), and d) facing people who think that winning is about killing everyone and not capping points. Too many DC's just try to stand in their circles when the GF's come running and that's really not a winning strategy.
I do have an excellent idea of what level 60 PvP with end game gear looks like. The only time I am one or two shotted by a TR on any of my characters is when I am careless and they're lucky or frankly better than I am. GWF's are killable if you don't try to take them at their own game, just as GF's are. A cleric shouldn't fall in a few seconds to the geared TR unless the cleric is not well geared, careless, or the TR manages to get their whole rotation off.
I think he meant if clerics had cc immune skills like a tr they would be immortal. This is the only way I die, even with 3 people on me I can outheal them UNTIL I'm cc'd then it's lights out. Most of the problem IS people don't know how to play. If you see people ganging up on the cleric why not help the cleric? In gaunt, and I'm on cw I always try and protect the dc since every stupid rogue go after dc if it's not just me standing there so it's easy to kill them.
PinkSugar, lvl 60 CW.
Baby Cakes, lvl 60 GWF.
*******, lvl 60 TR.
Premium Juicebox, lvl 60 CW.
Pink Exxxtacy, Ranger
There is NO pvp in Neverwinter.
Why? because survivability in pvp depends on defence much more than on healing in this case.
Not to mention that clerics in general are free kills in pvp, you really want to argue with that? Or you want to say that most of clerics are noo... that dont know how to play (oh yes, it must be it, there is much higher percentage of n**bs among clerisc than among other classes, thats why statistics look so bad for them). And that wont change even if we could get +40% selfheal, whistlingdixie explained why.
In my opinion, righteousness hurts more in pve (especially when running solo), where fights are in general longer, there is more kiting, and healing speed is actually a factor.
I have one of those thaum wizards, and a super tanky GWF heh. My CW with 0 bonus defense (ie only what high viz gives + the 4 set buff if active) Has only been 1 shot by a TR ONE time, this particular TR has P. Vorpal, 7 Gtene's and 2500+ ArP.
My GWF has 37k HP, 42% deflect (used to be 54% before the patch =/) 1800 regen ticks, 3200 defense. It does take 5 pugs to kill me, 2-3 really good players can make me retreat from my point though. That being said my friends cleric is as tanky as my GWF AND he can heal everyone else too. I'm sorry if you can't replicate those results, but the fact remains that those results are possible and the ability to tank 3-4 players AND heal all team members for huge numbers would be simply unstoppable if they buffed self heals by 40%. Again I am telling you that it is possible as I have seen it even vs. some of the best geared/played characters on the server.
Even once they focus him down the first time by the time his 6 second soulforged is up he's back at 75%+ with temp HP over 100%, it's just craziness with incredible gear.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I agree with your claim that clerics in general are free kills in pvp, but that's because a lot of clerics think hp and defense aren't important, or they try to use damage passives and feats. The right way to play cleric in pvp is to be an annoying heal troll. 80-90% of pvp games, assuming they don't rage quit, enemies first attack me, then realize I'm almost unkillable, then go for other players around me.
Righteousness doesn't lower AS/FF heals. Removing it wouldn't make AS/FF heal more.
If you have never seen any TR able to OS you it's either because you only play vs noobs, or because the said TRs rather save their daily to OS clerics. A 12k+ with g/p vorpal doesn't need daily to roflstomp clerics, though.
Astral Shield kinda sux in PVP anyway, because 3 classes out of 5 can knock you out of your circle very easilly.
When it comes to tanking 3 or 4 people, Forgemaster (pre-bugged) used to be much more effective.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
Ok now I know not to take your posts seriously.
Why yes it does, b/c if you're 2 shotted that means that after he uses lashing blade you might have temp hp and free healing from multiple feats, your soulforged will go off giving you even more time, you have time to place an AS and cast a couple heals. Pretty much you could be back to 50%+ pretty easily as long as TR didn't kill you in 1 shot, which that should never happen.
Again I fully agree with removing righteous outside of PvP
As I said my CW with like 750 defense (26k HP though) Has only been one shot one time and it was by a TR with absolute BiS gear and using Lurkers, so it should never happen to a cleric with 2k defense and using foresight.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
AS cannot crit and heals for around 450 per tick.
My FF used to crit 42% of the time for 3500-3900hp per second. It makes you far more tanky than AS.
Both AS and FF in pvp is not of great use, better to pick only one of those (or only use AS in non-divine), and I find FF to be much much more effective (well before it got bugged). Even with the nerf, I am still hard to kill, but the lower GS cleric must badly suffer from it.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
Veramis: the 40% debuff for heals that also give healback would actually be fine with me. It's kinda the point: you're healing someone else but wooo bonus heals for joo!
The problem is that it's ACTUALLY giving both peeps the same heals, then debuffing those you receive. Which means that if you cast a healing word on yourself, you being the ONLY recipient, you get only 60% of the benefit. Healing word is over two and a half times more efficient if you DON'T cast it on yourself. If you're being focus-fired and you need to save yourself with a HW, you should cast it on literally ANYONE else, because it's only going to give you gimpy heals anyway, and at least the latter approach also heals someone else. Same for soothing light (except..well, lol soothing light).
I wouldn't mind if soothing light and HW only gave you a 60% healback if used on someone else, but if cast on myself, to save my own <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> from the fire, I would very much like them to work at full strength. It'd be very nice to get sunburst and seal heals at full whack too, ofc. But as uri92 points out, two of our major heals (D-AS and D-FF) are not affected by righteousness, which is one of the reasons they're so incredibly useful.
My only conclusion as to why you are not getting good pvp results is that you must be both specced and geared for PvE. It doesn't matter how good your heals are if your defenses are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in PvP. The righteousness paragon path + feated foresight does wonders for survivability, as well as stacking some def/defl/hp. Any class specced and geared for pvp is going to multiple times better at it even with lower GS.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
But ok, he can heal himself more than other teammates, but a)thats because he NEEDS more healing. If his teammates would need more, he would proly heal them and b)can he really outheal damage?
And, you really want to say that most of clerics doesnt know how to play? Because in other cases than pvp, defence is not really most important. You cant have everything, higher defence means lower something else (like, power?)
Lol if you're using healing word in PvP I think that's your first problem.
again I'm not a skill expert on cleric but from what I've heard (Constant out loud laughter on vent) clerics that use HW in PvP are not the greatest =P
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
What I am pointing is that clerics with average gear can't do anything in PVP because of that Righteousness cutting they alreayd poor heals in 40%. Those clerics are the majority, you know ?
Of course with my 13k GS etc I am hard to kill though not impossible, but not all the clerics have such survivability that they can survive even with that Righteousness.
Since you play CW, how about adding a new class mechanic passive to the CW ?
Like a passive which lower the duration of all the CC on the enemies by 40%. Would be fun.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
Exactly which is why I'm saying those specced and geared for pvp are going to have vastly different results. Don't post how clerics are weak in PvP when you're specced and geared for PvE.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
You cant be serious. Primo, why you think I have soulforget in first place? Does everyone has that?
Secundo, so you think between one of encounter and another I have time to place AS and a couple of other heals? Oh yes, TR will be standing there and thinking: "oh what should I use next? Lashing blade or dazing strike?" Not to mention that if he would use dazing strike as first, I could do nothing at all.
Tertio: AS and HW could not heal even half of damage he did with the first srtike (they heal over time, mind you)
Sorry guys I have to say you guys all have things confused. Cleric is actually overpowered in pvp, and I've been telling cryptic they have to nerf them especially AS. I don't know what planet you guys live on but it sounds very interesting.
actually it would be CC is 40% more effective on CW, but that would be a little dumb as GF's can already prone juggle us to death without getting extra CC.
So you already have good pvp results without BiS enchants? Imagine if you had absolute BiS enchants, and then add in +40% healing to yourself... Then you would be truly unkillable, which is why they aren't going to remove it.
I agree that undergeared DC's are hurt too much by it. I agree that it has no place in PvE. But I'm just letting you know (since this post was originally about them changing/removing righteous) that they are not going to remove it b/c it would make the well geared clerics able to hold points indefinitely while also healing their team.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.