I'm full miracle healer with 2300 defense and 1600 deflect, still 3200 recovery and > 2000 crit, 25 K HP ... most of my power stat is located at my stone which is only is for PvE.
Does 2300 defense and 1600 delfect and 25 K HP helps me survive in PvP ... yes. Can I take the same punishment as GF and GWF? ... hell, no. A good GWF/GF lough just about the clerics trying to tank.
If you fully concentrate on regen, defense, deflect, HP and - in order to do so - throw away your T2 equip to slot blue gear as e.g. GCTRL has done ... something is wrong with the T2 gear. In no situation should blue gear be more effective then the most best and defensive T2 set.
I had a conqueror and turtle gf with near bis gear, and I can tell you from experience that clerics are far superior at tanking in pvp, yes even with the gf spamming fighter's recovery and iron warrior. I don't get all this talk about blue items being better than t2 set. Every cleric t2 set can be worked around to make a very balanced cleric, and a balanced cleric that can use all his tools for survival well is preferable to a lopsided cleric that tries to use blue equipment for some quirky defense build. The only class that can take more punishment than a cleric played right in 1v1 is a gwf stacking damage reduction equipment, feats and skills, and a lot of deflection, lifesteal, regen, and lifedrinker.
Btw defense is superior to deflection until you have 4k+ defense. Regen is very hard to come by in cleric character equipment, and in that case you're talking about sacrificing royal priest rings with their 600 hp and 150 defense/deflect and defense slots. You can't get 1000 regen on a cleric without gimping it, and it's weak compared to a cleric using t2 armor and minor/grand/ancient defensive rings and belts.
B/c the cleric has a CW and 2 GF's to keep the enemies off of him. 2 frontlines 2 bull charges and tons of freeze from CW is way more than enough to keep the cleric healing away.
... That is called team play. What has it to do with DC and OP? The more posts i read from you the more im convinced you are a refined troll. You do not have a 60 DC in first place. You experiance comes from one over gear guildy. What ever premades you two face are flat out terible. Any class with equal GS will annihilate the DC 1v1. Any opponent with two brain cells that connect will try and keep DC CCed/ stun locked, now whether they succeed or fail depends heavily on team. If he dose not die that dose not mean Clerics are OP it means he has a good team.
I had a conqueror and turtle gf with near bis gear, and I can tell you from experience that clerics are far superior at tanking in pvp, yes even with the gf spamming fighter's recovery and iron warrior. I don't get all this talk about blue items being better than t2 set. Every cleric t2 set can be worked around to make a very balanced cleric, and a balanced cleric that can use all his tools for survival well is preferable to a lopsided cleric that tries to use blue equipment for some quirky defense build. The only class that can take more punishment than a cleric played right in 1v1 is a gwf stacking damage reduction equipment, feats and skills, and a lot of deflection, lifesteal, regen, and lifedrinker.
Btw defense is superior to deflection until you have 4k+ defense. Regen is very hard to come by in cleric character equipment, and in that case you're talking about sacrificing royal priest rings with their 600 hp and 150 defense/deflect and defense slots. You can't get 1000 regen on a cleric without gimping it, and it's weak compared to a cleric using t2 armor and minor/grand/ancient defensive rings and belts.
The gear you're talking about costs a couple of milion AD on AH and takes months if you farm for it. You can simply get a simular ressult with Green and Blue gear for around 1500 AD but with alot less healing output.
It's very cheap to properly equip a defensive cleric because the survival of a cleric is primarily dependent on skills that have fixed benefits. You can buy t1 pvp armor set for about 15k glory, 2x minor grand priest rings for 70 drake seals, powercritrecovery necklace for 40 drake seals, defense/deflect belt for 40 drake seals. Rank 4-6 runes.
I have done plenty of pvp with t1 armor without enchantments, or with my jewelry removed, so I know from experience clerics can still work very well without BIS gear.
I have done plenty of pvp with t1 armor without enchantments, or with my jewelry removed, so I know from experience clerics can still work very well without BIS gear.
K.
Anyway, cleric may be tanky, but that is no fun to play.
A cleric has a DPS parangon, and it is not worth it. A cleric should be able to dps effectivly with adequate gear, but they are bad because they have poor CC resistance, poor controls, and only 1 real burst damage which is either delayed or require divinity. That's why they need to give a second thought on that virtuous path and the way our dps powers work.
First you complain about cleric survivability, and now you want them to do something about virtuous feats and make clerics do more dps? Before we continue with this new line of QQ-fest, let's be clear, a dps cleric must sacrifice heals, replacing 2-3 heal powers with damage powers, so please don't reply that a cleric should be able to do both at maximum potential simultaneously. A good way to kill in pvp as cleric at the expense of survivability is high prophet armor, daunting light, divine glow, and astral shield. On rare occasions I have seen clerics top the kill chart, and almost all kills were from daunting light.
First you complain about cleric survivability, and now you want them to do something about virtuous feats and make clerics do more dps? Before we continue with this new line of QQ-fest, let's be clear, a dps cleric must sacrifice heals, replacing 2-3 heal powers with damage powers, so please don't reply that a cleric should be able to do both at maximum potential simultaneously. A good way to kill in pvp as cleric at the expense of survivability is high prophet armor, daunting light, divine glow, and astral shield. On rare occasions I have seen clerics top the kill chart, and almost all kills were from daunting light.
sacrifice active heals maybe except for soothing light, but usually these clerics have repurpose soul (unless their spec is bad) and are constantly passively healing as they deal their damage. Their end feat give them bonus damage for ever critical heal. So to say that they must sacrifice heals is totally not true.
Oh and most dps spec clerics don't even bother with astral shield (and certainly not in PvP as it is a big kill me sign). Daunting light, Divine glow and then usually some sort of snare, slow, stun debuff etc..
Maybe go learn what the virtuous paragon is about before you spread mis-information.
I had a conqueror and turtle gf with near bis gear, and I can tell you from experience that clerics are far superior at tanking in pvp, yes even with the gf spamming fighter's recovery and iron warrior.
Then you must be only playing against bad opponents. In contrast to GWF/GF, cleric has no ability that grant CC imunity. And that is what makes tanking possible in the first place. If you are controlled by a wizard, then dazed by a rogue and knocked around by GWF/GF you simply can not take advantage of any of the fancy damage migration cleric skills.
Since every PvP and even PvE player should have around 15% armor penetration mimimum, your 4000+ defense helps only little, espacially since there a skills that reduce your resistance again (e.g. wicked reminder, shild bash).
If you saying that a DC can tank better then a GWF/GF you already assuming that he stands in his circles and is able to use his abilities - which is not the case against any skilled opponent.
The very problem with the cleric class is that to use many of his most effectives healing spells he needs to be in the middle of action - but that is expected from a leader class. But for a front line fighting the cleric needs CC like a wizard, kiting and CC imunity like a GWF or simply defense and CC imunity like a GF.
Some changes that I would like to see is rightousness gone. Instead add a trait that provide improve CC imunity against one spell every 60 seconds.
Sunburst need to be a AoE daze instead knockback. Chains needs to be unbreakable root and able to trigger from mutiple targets. Damage has to be increase by at least 50% of at-wills and encounter.
Then you must be only playing against bad opponents. In contrast to GWF/GF, cleric has no ability that grant CC imunity. And that is what makes tanking possible in the first place. If you are controlled by a wizard, then dazed by a rogue and knocked around by GWF/GF you simply can not take advantage of any of the fancy damage migration cleric skills.
Since every PvP and even PvE player should have around 15% armor penetration mimimum, your 4000+ defense helps only little, espacially since there a skills that reduce your resistance again (e.g. wicked reminder, shild bash).
If you saying that a DC can tank better then a GWF/GF you already assuming that he stands in his circles and is able to use his abilities - which is not the case against any skilled opponent.
The very problem with the cleric class is that to use many of his most effectives healing spells he needs to be in the middle of action - but that is expected from a leader class. But for a front line fighting the cleric needs CC like a wizard, kiting and CC imunity like a GWF or simply defense and CC imunity like a GF.
Some changes that I would like to see is rightousness gone. Instead add a trait that provide improve CC imunity against one spell every 60 seconds.
Sunburst need to be a AoE daze instead knockback. Chains needs to be unbreakable root and able to trigger from mutiple targets. Damage has to be increase by at least 50% of at-wills and encounter.
I actually like that sunburst has knockback with divinity, however I feel that it should leave the targets prone afterwards (and the daze idea is rally nice too). The problem with chains is it only roots the enemies and they can break free, it does not prevent them from attacking!! If it dazed and rooted them maybe then it would be useful. Also that damage increase needs to apply to same dailies as well (guardian of faith..... oh and un-nerf HoF)
Perhaps keep the name righteousness but make it give CC resist all the time and immunity to CC every 60 seconds.
Daunting light in non divine mode is too slow, sure maybe make it slightly delayed but with the delay it has now it's terrible without divinity. DoT spells are cool, but we have 3 encounters that are DoT. Forgemaster's flame, Break the spirit, and to a lesser extent prophecies of doom. I say turn break the spirit into an AoE that works similar to the CW conduit of ice spell. So cast on a target but giving an AOE around it. Also it's stun (XD) and slowing from divinity are barely noticeable. Forgemaster's flame is fine how it is, and prophecies of doom is for non-divine mode. In divine mode I how about making it disperse that damage when the effect ends to not only the target but nearby enemies. Brand of the sun is a DoT and is fin just the way it is.
veramis1 you do realise that 95% of this game is not PvP right?
You and your bandwagon of QQers (we are not the ones saying clerics are OP, you are... so that makes you the QQer) are the ones responsible for the incredibly stupid ammount of nerfs the cleric has been receiving since day one.
The complete lack of skills of you and your bandwagon cannot comprehend that if you let the cleric stand on his feet he will not stop healing. derp derp. Cleric is the least CC resistant class (for some weird reason WIS doesen't work for that). A less than decent CW can keep him CCed till the ends of days while a TR unleashes a stupid ammount of damage THAT CANNOT BE OUTHEALED, or a GF constinuously proning him while a CW attacks from range: the cleric is dead. It only takes 2 people to kill a class that cannot possibly kill anyone, ANYONE.
If you want to get rid of a cleric in PvP you need at least a functioning brain. Yeah, mindlessly unleashing stuff at the cleric while he casts stuff is not gonna kill him, you know? I guess that's big news for you.
Now lets look at PvE. Riiiiiiiiiight, keep claiming that clerics are OP. I'd like to see how the cleric class ends up. sometimes you need a FULL bar of healing spells to get a group through a dungeon and not without a couple of deads. We have amazingly good debuffing and damaging skills we cannot use because our healing spells are just not on par with them ad if that wasn't enough, we stilll get our DD output nerfed.
In his promotional video, the NW staff claimed DC to be a class not centered on healing, but an active character both in the damage dealing and supportive departments. At first that was true... but then people like you came and the cleric class has been systematically destroyed since then.
Good job. Making an enjoyable class into a crippled ******* son is just what you've accomplished.
sacrifice active heals maybe except for soothing light, but usually these clerics have repurpose soul (unless their spec is bad) and are constantly passively healing as they deal their damage. Their end feat give them bonus damage for ever critical heal. So to say that they must sacrifice heals is totally not true.
Oh and most dps spec clerics don't even bother with astral shield (and certainly not in PvP as it is a big kill me sign). Daunting light, Divine glow and then usually some sort of snare, slow, stun debuff etc..
Maybe go learn what the virtuous paragon is about before you spread mis-information.
First of all, a cleric with 3 heal spells is going to heal better than one with 2 or 1 heal spells. The heal from repurposed soul is small, why don't you just read the description on it, it actually uses the word small. As for some end feat giving bonus damage for every critical heal, I don't know what planet you're on, but it's not planet earth where the virtuous end feat doesn't change the fact that whenever someone swaps out a healing power for a damage power he is sacrificing heals by definition.
As for not using astral shield for psychological purposes, ha ha. Good luck with your mind games pvp strategy.
I don't have to learn what virtuous paragon is about, I already know how it works and I didn't even touch upon it. Fight straw men a lot?
Then you must be only playing against bad opponents. In contrast to GWF/GF, cleric has no ability that grant CC imunity. And that is what makes tanking possible in the first place. If you are controlled by a wizard, then dazed by a rogue and knocked around by GWF/GF you simply can not take advantage of any of the fancy damage migration cleric skills.
A cleric who gets himself into a situation where he is 3v1 deserves to lose that fight. Using your same argument, cw, tr, gf, or gwf "can not take advantage of any of the fancy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> skills" when being gangbanged by 3 other players. Yawn.
Since every PvP and even PvE player should have around 15% armor penetration mimimum, your 4000+ defense helps only little, espacially since there a skills that reduce your resistance again (e.g. wicked reminder, shild bash).
This is ridiculous, and shows how little you understand about the mechanics of damage reduction. A cleric that stacks his defense up to 94% by using astral shield, foresight, and hallowed ground, above the 80% cap. He still will have armor penetration applied to the 94%, let's say for example enemies debuff your damage reduction by 50%. Then it becomes 44% damage reduction. Compare that to someone who only stacks his defense up to 84%, or after armor penetration and debuffs of the enemy, 34%. That would be receiving 56% of incoming damage in the first case, or 66% in the second, a relative difference of 15% less damage. As I have said many times before in this tragic thread, each point further into defense is more valuable, especially since it synergizes with cleric damage mitigation.
If you saying that a DC can tank better then a GWF/GF you already assuming that he stands in his circles and is able to use his abilities - which is not the case against any skilled opponent.
Learn to dash? Learn to position the circle so you're in it even after a punt? Learn to walk back into the circle?
The very problem with the cleric class is that to use many of his most effectives healing spells he needs to be in the middle of action - but that is expected from a leader class. But for a front line fighting the cleric needs CC like a wizard, kiting and CC imunity like a GWF or simply defense and CC imunity like a GF.
Oh right. Let's just give clerics CC of a CW, CC immunity of a GWF, and the armor defense of a GF. We'll take away his heals and call him a CW, GWF, or GF, depending on what feature you prefer while at the character creation screen.
Some changes that I would like to see is rightousness gone. Instead add a trait that provide improve CC imunity against one spell every 60 seconds.
Sunburst need to be a AoE daze instead knockback. Chains needs to be unbreakable root and able to trigger from mutiple targets. Damage has to be increase by at least 50% of at-wills and encounter.
I want to see people here actually read what I'm writing and realize clerics are very good in pvp if played right. Instead all I'm getting is all this ridiculous demands for changes by people who don't understand the class.
And at Oroness QQ, if I have done anything to get clerics nerfed, it was from all the times people reported me for "cheating" in pvp because I understood clerics enough to make them a broken class. QQ some more and ignore all the advice I've given in this thread, seems to me you enjoy crying more than learning how to play.
I have done plenty of pvp with t1 armor without enchantments, or with my jewelry removed, so I know from experience clerics can still work very well without BIS gear.
Any more QQQQQQQQQQQQ?
What are you smoking? Share it. I start to belive its rouges trolling here, to draw away attention from them selfs....With that set up youre going to be one shotted. I was there once and it was very painfull. Not to mention a well geared defence DC hits like a wet noodle.
trolj, you get one shotted because you are stupid and don't know how to play your class. And who cares if a defensive cleric hits like a wet noodle? Last I checked there wasn't a 1v1 pvp mode. It's capture the tower, stay on the tower, troll the enemies to death or until they walk away.
trolj, you get one shotted because you are stupid and don't know how to play your class. And who cares if a defensive cleric hits like a wet noodle? Last I checked there wasn't a 1v1 pvp mode. It's capture the tower, stay on the tower, troll the enemies to death or until they walk away.
lol...Do you even play a DC? No forget that i am positive this threat was flooded with trolls. Lets say in 1v1 if once in blue moon a TR will not be able to brust DPS the healing (lols...). We are talking about holding points for now. In comes a CW, AS and FF will not help much and only Healing Word remains. Now lets come back to that hitting like wet noodle part. How do you want to kill CW to defend or capture a point? Exactly you cant. Team mates arriving is a two fold situation that CW can get reinforcement too. And DC is flat out the only class that depends so heavily on them to do anything. A GF/GWF vs DC show down at a point is just pure luls... Well geared, skilled GF/GWF will not let you stall time for long. That means DC( any DC, defence build one, DPS one) depends on team to do anything in first place, while other classes are more or less self suficient. If the team is good they dont realy need a DC if the team is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, well the firs one to suffer is DC.
*Edit* I still want what you are smoking. Maybe i should go and troll in TR topics, how underpowered they are and desperately in need of a buff. That should be fun.
trolj, before I was defeated by the arcane reservoir, my cleric could tank anyone 1v1 indefinitely. Then you talk about the cleric being teamed up against in 2v1 or 3v1. Tell me how many classes are able to survive when outnumbered 2:1 or 3:1? Don't know if I should laugh or cry at your inanity.
Someone who makes an argument that boohoo clerics depend on others, clearly doesn't understand that the purpose of 5v5 is to overwhelm the enemy with greater numbers, not just to kill them, but because which team captures the tower is the team with the most feet on the base. I also see that you're someone who doesn't understand just how much a cleric can screw up pvp by keeping his teammates topped off at 100% hp from your comment that a good team doesn't benefit from heals. I have done plenty of choo-choo train games where my team would just run as a group of 4-5 and bulldoze entire enemy teams from one tower to the next, never needing to split to go for potions or try to avoid being hit/kite, just focus on killing them like trash mobs in a t2 dungeon. The only thing that makes this possible is a cleric that knows how to heal and not get killed in pvp.
trolj, before I was defeated by the arcane reservoir, my cleric could tank anyone 1v1 indefinitely. Then you talk about the cleric being teamed up against in 2v1 or 3v1. Tell me how many classes are able to survive when outnumbered 2:1 or 3:1? Don't know if I should laugh or cry at your inanity.
Where did i post anything about 3v1? It was all about 1v1 with me pointing out luck is fickle thing and team mates can arrive on any side. Learn to read. It may be a revelation for you but properly build GF/GWF can tank up to three people no problem. I dont know who you were facing but clearly they had no idea what they were doing. You do realise once someone is down there is a respawn timer and team is left esentialy with 4v5. If killing was as useless as you pretent then everyone would be riding on mounts and rotate points to infinity and beyond. And no DC CANT heal the amount of damage people output with end gear. The numbers are insane.
Anyway you are clearly not sharing what you are smoking so i lost my interest. Il go in TR topic and QQ how underpowered they are, that should be more fun then discussing with a theory crafter.
trolj, gwf is the only class that can fight off 3 poeple for a long time, then he's specced as sentinel, stacking defense/deflect/regen/lifesteal and using lifedrinker and doing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> damage. When you talk about a cw entering into a tr and cleric dueling, you are by definition suggesting 2v1. A good defensive cleric can outheal any damage by any BiS equipped character in 1v1. A CW might be able to debuff your defense significantly, but his only real damaging skill is a daily ice pick that shouldn't take more than 30% of your hit points when you have high defense/hp and are in astral shield and have foresight. A TR can do more damage and daze you, but his damage is greatly reduced by spamming damage reduction skills. A GF can knock you around in circles, and if you are in a 1v1 situation with him chances are he will eventually capture the tower, but his prone skills are all long delay or daily and shouldn't be able to kill you. A GWF can go spamtastic with slashing at you, but with astral seal and briartwine, every single time he hits you, you gain 150 hp, and will often just gain hp from being hit by him.
Also, learn to play plz it's people like you that make people think clerics are bad in pvp.
trolj, gwf is the only class that can fight off 3 poeple for a long time, then he's specced as sentinel, stacking defense/deflect/regen/lifesteal and using lifedrinker and doing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> damage. When you talk about a cw entering into a tr and cleric dueling, you are by definition suggesting 2v1. A good defensive cleric can outheal any damage by any BiS equipped character in 1v1. A CW might be able to debuff your defense significantly, but his only real damaging skill is a daily ice pick that shouldn't take more than 30% of your hit points when you have high defense/hp and are in astral shield and have foresight. A TR can do more damage and daze you, but his damage is greatly reduced by spamming damage reduction skills. A GF can knock you around in circles, and if you are in a 1v1 situation with him chances are he will eventually capture the tower, but his prone skills are all long delay or daily and shouldn't be able to kill you. A GWF can go spamtastic with slashing at you, but with astral seal and briartwine, every single time he hits you, you gain 150 hp, and will often just gain hp from being hit by him.
Also, learn to play plz it's people like you that make people think clerics are bad in pvp.
That was my mistake should have clarified that i meant stictly 1v1. No they CANT outheal end gear damage. Did you see the numbers? And that with 40% righteousness. Stop basing youre coments on PUGs and you having BiS gear. A CW can and will CC you... Rendering all youre move useless. Keeping you away from AS half the time. Forcing you to abort casts. Rendering FF useless and DC hiting like wet noodle is not a threat to geared/ skilled CW, besides who stops CW from stacking Armor pen./crit. And yes GFs can tank up to three people sucessfully, saw happen more then once. I serously cant belive there are people arguing DC can outheal anything in PvP and that means by default they are good in PvP. LOL i dont know in what Lalala land you live but we must be clearly playing difernt games.
No its people like who warrant and approve of unnecessary and down right <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> nerfs to the class, making it harder and harder to enjoy.
*Edit* DC performs only so well as their team dose. A good team dose not need or benefit (not realy) from DC, they are like icing on the cake right now. Good to have but nothing more. Ok now im out no use trying to argue anymore.
A cleric can outheal anyone in 1v1 pvp. I know because I have stalemated BiS tr's and gf's in ridiculously long fights, and I know they were using BiS gear because out of curiosity I'd contact after fights to see their build and equipment. A CW can't permanently CC you, there will always be windows where you can drop spells that last a very long time, such as brand of the sun, astral shield, healing word, or hallowed ground. Even if he can push you about every 4 seconds, you can easily dash right back into your circle assuming you didn't already position the circle and yourself so that you would still be in it from a repel. I don't use FF because it is too situational, but I won't say that it's not viable in pvp, it can be very useful in pvp but just can't be relied upon for consistent heals. A DC that hits like weight noodles will still wear down a CW eventually unless the CW has stacked enough lifesteal, in which case it would be a stalemate with most likely the cleric keeping the tower.
If a cleric can outheal anything in pvp 1v1, that means they can outheal anything in pvp 1v1, I didn't say what you claim I said, dum dum. What makes cleric great in pvp is they can keep their teammates at very high health, cast a wide area 20% damage boost to teammates with a daily, and with all his circles down, foresight, some astral seals+brand of the suns on enemies, he can far outtank any gf or gwf.
I can vouch that Veramis does main a cleric, he's on very frequently (until a few days ago), and he pvps often. He's on my friends list since about two months ago, but because I rarely pvp, we haven't talked since we first met.
Hope that clears up any concerns about whether he pvps as a cleric.
Heya Thanks for vouching for me. I became a lot better at pvp when I went defensive about a month ago but sadly I can't show you because I was defeated by the arcane reservoir. I am planning on making a gwf soon though we should keep in touch my char will be cloud@chocobofarm .
A skilled cleric will do his job and handle any fight while healing, buffing, and even dealing some damage or debuffing (FF).
A skilled cleric will heal his team so good that the team will farm the opponent team in team fights. It then becomes easy to get the nodes.
No need for full defensive, only low skilled player require that to be good in PVP as a cleric, when highly geared.
I can vouch that Veramis does main a cleric, he's on very frequently (until a few days ago), and he pvps often. He's on my friends list since about two months ago, but because I rarely pvp, we haven't talked since we first met.
Hope that clears up any concerns about whether he pvps as a cleric.
I can confirm this,I played a lot of PvP with him (and he was one of the best DC in the shard imo in both PvP and PvE) and he used to own everything,surviving in towers even when severely outnumbered,I remember once in GG he survived for like 2\3 mins with 5 guys attacking him,we even played a naked PvP because of How easy con it be with a competent and geared DC (against PuG's ofc),then AR defeated him....
Come back Vera!
I don't have any prob with my own survivability, BUT I have end gear.
On the other hand, it is VERY frustrating to PVP as a low geared Cleric, because of that Righteousness.
I am not claiming that Clerics are weak because I am weak, but because low geared ones are utter <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Any other class can do better with the same gear level, especially rogues.
That's very funny how you claim yourself to be the best and all, and call your guildies to tell us that you pwnZ, but anyway, we don't give a f*ck. Do you know any of us ? No.
Pretending you rox and we sux is kinda what you have been doing on 3 or 4 pages now, claiming that you are the boss who know how to play cleric, and we all sux because we don't use "your OP build".
I spend most of my in-game time in PVP and I have no lesson to take from a moron claiming that only his build and gear is the one to go as a cleric and all others are nubs who don't know how to exploit the gear and the stats.
Oh and btw, next time try to not exploit the quests also, that way you won't get hit by the banhammer.
uri, I have repeated myself many times, that many of the skills that help clerics survive in pvp have fixed benefits, ie foresight astral shield and hallowed ground damage reduction. I have used t1 gear and still done very well as cleric. I don't claim to be the best, I have seen some clerics I consider better at pvp than me. And they're not my guildies. You can go on beholder and see they aren't even in the same guild as each other.
I am not pretending that I rock and you suck, the last several pages prove that many of you on the forum have no idea how to play clerics and have outrageous ideas. And I never said people suck because they don't use my build, there are many viable ways to play cleric in pvp, but if you are complaining about survival, well then stacking defense and hp, and using your healing powers and feats properly is the way to do it.
I can clearly see that you have nothing to learn from me, because you're so foolish you can't even take my advice even though I've proven you wrong countless times.
First of all, a cleric with 3 heal spells is going to heal better than one with 2 or 1 heal spells. The heal from repurposed soul is small, why don't you just read the description on it, it actually uses the word small. As for some end feat giving bonus damage for every critical heal, I don't know what planet you're on, but it's not planet earth where the virtuous end feat doesn't change the fact that whenever someone swaps out a healing power for a damage power he is sacrificing heals by definition.
As for not using astral shield for psychological purposes, ha ha. Good luck with your mind games pvp strategy.
I don't have to learn what virtuous paragon is about, I already know how it works and I didn't even touch upon it. Fight straw men a lot?
You have 3 encounters that heal ok, On my virtuous cleric I have one that also deals damage but I crit often and even then heal others through crits with my at-will skills. Repurpose soul makes punishing light a nice AoE heal.
Sure they don't heal in big chunks, but I a party with 2 clerics where The other cleric was "healing" I beat them for healing and topped the dps. Higher crit damage, bigger repurpose soul heals and a high crit chance with constantly passively healing really does work.
Instead of being bursty with heals that just heal I get burst heals from critical hits. The amount of healing repurpose soul gives is rather substantial. If my virtuous cleric who is not actively, but passively healing can out heal a cleric who is actively healing then how can you call repurpose soul heals insignificant? Repurpose soul gives some of the biggest burst heals.
From your remarks you clearly don't understand how the virtuous path works. A virtuous cleric still does heal but isn't specced into is so much, instead they spend more time debuffing the enemies and dealing damage so that less healing is required.
But have fun believing this isn't true if it makes you feel better.
The fact of the matter is, a cleric is going to heal more with 3 heal spells than 1 or 2. If you beat someone in healing when you had damage skills and he had all 3 heal skills, all that says is the other person didn't heal as well as you. But if you were to compare your heals when you have 3 heal spells versus 1 or 2 heal spells, obviously you will heal more with 3 heal spells. And you will heal more than if you were to rely on repurpose soul to make your damage skills heal. If you can't heal more by using 1-2 damage skills versus using 3 healing skills, then by definition I am right and you Don Quixote.
As for the comment that I don't understand how virtuous path works, when did I ever say anything against virtuous path? Stop attacking strawmen. Yeah so a virtuous path cleric can do more damage, did I ever say otherwise dum dum? Go find strawmen elsewhere.
Comments
I had a conqueror and turtle gf with near bis gear, and I can tell you from experience that clerics are far superior at tanking in pvp, yes even with the gf spamming fighter's recovery and iron warrior. I don't get all this talk about blue items being better than t2 set. Every cleric t2 set can be worked around to make a very balanced cleric, and a balanced cleric that can use all his tools for survival well is preferable to a lopsided cleric that tries to use blue equipment for some quirky defense build. The only class that can take more punishment than a cleric played right in 1v1 is a gwf stacking damage reduction equipment, feats and skills, and a lot of deflection, lifesteal, regen, and lifedrinker.
Btw defense is superior to deflection until you have 4k+ defense. Regen is very hard to come by in cleric character equipment, and in that case you're talking about sacrificing royal priest rings with their 600 hp and 150 defense/deflect and defense slots. You can't get 1000 regen on a cleric without gimping it, and it's weak compared to a cleric using t2 armor and minor/grand/ancient defensive rings and belts.
... That is called team play. What has it to do with DC and OP? The more posts i read from you the more im convinced you are a refined troll. You do not have a 60 DC in first place. You experiance comes from one over gear guildy. What ever premades you two face are flat out terible. Any class with equal GS will annihilate the DC 1v1. Any opponent with two brain cells that connect will try and keep DC CCed/ stun locked, now whether they succeed or fail depends heavily on team. If he dose not die that dose not mean Clerics are OP it means he has a good team.
The gear you're talking about costs a couple of milion AD on AH and takes months if you farm for it. You can simply get a simular ressult with Green and Blue gear for around 1500 AD but with alot less healing output.
I have done plenty of pvp with t1 armor without enchantments, or with my jewelry removed, so I know from experience clerics can still work very well without BIS gear.
Any more QQQQQQQQQQQQ?
K.
Anyway, cleric may be tanky, but that is no fun to play.
A cleric has a DPS parangon, and it is not worth it. A cleric should be able to dps effectivly with adequate gear, but they are bad because they have poor CC resistance, poor controls, and only 1 real burst damage which is either delayed or require divinity. That's why they need to give a second thought on that virtuous path and the way our dps powers work.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
sacrifice active heals maybe except for soothing light, but usually these clerics have repurpose soul (unless their spec is bad) and are constantly passively healing as they deal their damage. Their end feat give them bonus damage for ever critical heal. So to say that they must sacrifice heals is totally not true.
Oh and most dps spec clerics don't even bother with astral shield (and certainly not in PvP as it is a big kill me sign). Daunting light, Divine glow and then usually some sort of snare, slow, stun debuff etc..
Maybe go learn what the virtuous paragon is about before you spread mis-information.
Then you must be only playing against bad opponents. In contrast to GWF/GF, cleric has no ability that grant CC imunity. And that is what makes tanking possible in the first place. If you are controlled by a wizard, then dazed by a rogue and knocked around by GWF/GF you simply can not take advantage of any of the fancy damage migration cleric skills.
Since every PvP and even PvE player should have around 15% armor penetration mimimum, your 4000+ defense helps only little, espacially since there a skills that reduce your resistance again (e.g. wicked reminder, shild bash).
If you saying that a DC can tank better then a GWF/GF you already assuming that he stands in his circles and is able to use his abilities - which is not the case against any skilled opponent.
The very problem with the cleric class is that to use many of his most effectives healing spells he needs to be in the middle of action - but that is expected from a leader class. But for a front line fighting the cleric needs CC like a wizard, kiting and CC imunity like a GWF or simply defense and CC imunity like a GF.
Some changes that I would like to see is rightousness gone. Instead add a trait that provide improve CC imunity against one spell every 60 seconds.
Sunburst need to be a AoE daze instead knockback. Chains needs to be unbreakable root and able to trigger from mutiple targets. Damage has to be increase by at least 50% of at-wills and encounter.
I actually like that sunburst has knockback with divinity, however I feel that it should leave the targets prone afterwards (and the daze idea is rally nice too). The problem with chains is it only roots the enemies and they can break free, it does not prevent them from attacking!! If it dazed and rooted them maybe then it would be useful. Also that damage increase needs to apply to same dailies as well (guardian of faith..... oh and un-nerf HoF)
Perhaps keep the name righteousness but make it give CC resist all the time and immunity to CC every 60 seconds.
Daunting light in non divine mode is too slow, sure maybe make it slightly delayed but with the delay it has now it's terrible without divinity. DoT spells are cool, but we have 3 encounters that are DoT. Forgemaster's flame, Break the spirit, and to a lesser extent prophecies of doom. I say turn break the spirit into an AoE that works similar to the CW conduit of ice spell. So cast on a target but giving an AOE around it. Also it's stun (XD) and slowing from divinity are barely noticeable. Forgemaster's flame is fine how it is, and prophecies of doom is for non-divine mode. In divine mode I how about making it disperse that damage when the effect ends to not only the target but nearby enemies. Brand of the sun is a DoT and is fin just the way it is.
You and your bandwagon of QQers (we are not the ones saying clerics are OP, you are... so that makes you the QQer) are the ones responsible for the incredibly stupid ammount of nerfs the cleric has been receiving since day one.
The complete lack of skills of you and your bandwagon cannot comprehend that if you let the cleric stand on his feet he will not stop healing. derp derp. Cleric is the least CC resistant class (for some weird reason WIS doesen't work for that). A less than decent CW can keep him CCed till the ends of days while a TR unleashes a stupid ammount of damage THAT CANNOT BE OUTHEALED, or a GF constinuously proning him while a CW attacks from range: the cleric is dead. It only takes 2 people to kill a class that cannot possibly kill anyone, ANYONE.
If you want to get rid of a cleric in PvP you need at least a functioning brain. Yeah, mindlessly unleashing stuff at the cleric while he casts stuff is not gonna kill him, you know? I guess that's big news for you.
Now lets look at PvE. Riiiiiiiiiight, keep claiming that clerics are OP. I'd like to see how the cleric class ends up. sometimes you need a FULL bar of healing spells to get a group through a dungeon and not without a couple of deads. We have amazingly good debuffing and damaging skills we cannot use because our healing spells are just not on par with them ad if that wasn't enough, we stilll get our DD output nerfed.
In his promotional video, the NW staff claimed DC to be a class not centered on healing, but an active character both in the damage dealing and supportive departments. At first that was true... but then people like you came and the cleric class has been systematically destroyed since then.
Good job. Making an enjoyable class into a crippled ******* son is just what you've accomplished.
I want this class in NW.
First of all, a cleric with 3 heal spells is going to heal better than one with 2 or 1 heal spells. The heal from repurposed soul is small, why don't you just read the description on it, it actually uses the word small. As for some end feat giving bonus damage for every critical heal, I don't know what planet you're on, but it's not planet earth where the virtuous end feat doesn't change the fact that whenever someone swaps out a healing power for a damage power he is sacrificing heals by definition.
As for not using astral shield for psychological purposes, ha ha. Good luck with your mind games pvp strategy.
I don't have to learn what virtuous paragon is about, I already know how it works and I didn't even touch upon it. Fight straw men a lot?
A cleric who gets himself into a situation where he is 3v1 deserves to lose that fight. Using your same argument, cw, tr, gf, or gwf "can not take advantage of any of the fancy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> skills" when being gangbanged by 3 other players. Yawn.
This is ridiculous, and shows how little you understand about the mechanics of damage reduction. A cleric that stacks his defense up to 94% by using astral shield, foresight, and hallowed ground, above the 80% cap. He still will have armor penetration applied to the 94%, let's say for example enemies debuff your damage reduction by 50%. Then it becomes 44% damage reduction. Compare that to someone who only stacks his defense up to 84%, or after armor penetration and debuffs of the enemy, 34%. That would be receiving 56% of incoming damage in the first case, or 66% in the second, a relative difference of 15% less damage. As I have said many times before in this tragic thread, each point further into defense is more valuable, especially since it synergizes with cleric damage mitigation.
Learn to dash? Learn to position the circle so you're in it even after a punt? Learn to walk back into the circle?
Oh right. Let's just give clerics CC of a CW, CC immunity of a GWF, and the armor defense of a GF. We'll take away his heals and call him a CW, GWF, or GF, depending on what feature you prefer while at the character creation screen.
I want to see people here actually read what I'm writing and realize clerics are very good in pvp if played right. Instead all I'm getting is all this ridiculous demands for changes by people who don't understand the class.
And at Oroness QQ, if I have done anything to get clerics nerfed, it was from all the times people reported me for "cheating" in pvp because I understood clerics enough to make them a broken class. QQ some more and ignore all the advice I've given in this thread, seems to me you enjoy crying more than learning how to play.
What are you smoking? Share it. I start to belive its rouges trolling here, to draw away attention from them selfs....With that set up youre going to be one shotted. I was there once and it was very painfull. Not to mention a well geared defence DC hits like a wet noodle.
lol...Do you even play a DC? No forget that i am positive this threat was flooded with trolls. Lets say in 1v1 if once in blue moon a TR will not be able to brust DPS the healing (lols...). We are talking about holding points for now. In comes a CW, AS and FF will not help much and only Healing Word remains. Now lets come back to that hitting like wet noodle part. How do you want to kill CW to defend or capture a point? Exactly you cant. Team mates arriving is a two fold situation that CW can get reinforcement too. And DC is flat out the only class that depends so heavily on them to do anything. A GF/GWF vs DC show down at a point is just pure luls... Well geared, skilled GF/GWF will not let you stall time for long. That means DC( any DC, defence build one, DPS one) depends on team to do anything in first place, while other classes are more or less self suficient. If the team is good they dont realy need a DC if the team is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, well the firs one to suffer is DC.
*Edit* I still want what you are smoking. Maybe i should go and troll in TR topics, how underpowered they are and desperately in need of a buff. That should be fun.
Someone who makes an argument that boohoo clerics depend on others, clearly doesn't understand that the purpose of 5v5 is to overwhelm the enemy with greater numbers, not just to kill them, but because which team captures the tower is the team with the most feet on the base. I also see that you're someone who doesn't understand just how much a cleric can screw up pvp by keeping his teammates topped off at 100% hp from your comment that a good team doesn't benefit from heals. I have done plenty of choo-choo train games where my team would just run as a group of 4-5 and bulldoze entire enemy teams from one tower to the next, never needing to split to go for potions or try to avoid being hit/kite, just focus on killing them like trash mobs in a t2 dungeon. The only thing that makes this possible is a cleric that knows how to heal and not get killed in pvp.
Where did i post anything about 3v1? It was all about 1v1 with me pointing out luck is fickle thing and team mates can arrive on any side. Learn to read. It may be a revelation for you but properly build GF/GWF can tank up to three people no problem. I dont know who you were facing but clearly they had no idea what they were doing. You do realise once someone is down there is a respawn timer and team is left esentialy with 4v5. If killing was as useless as you pretent then everyone would be riding on mounts and rotate points to infinity and beyond. And no DC CANT heal the amount of damage people output with end gear. The numbers are insane.
Anyway you are clearly not sharing what you are smoking so i lost my interest. Il go in TR topic and QQ how underpowered they are, that should be more fun then discussing with a theory crafter.
Also, learn to play plz it's people like you that make people think clerics are bad in pvp.
That was my mistake should have clarified that i meant stictly 1v1. No they CANT outheal end gear damage. Did you see the numbers? And that with 40% righteousness. Stop basing youre coments on PUGs and you having BiS gear. A CW can and will CC you... Rendering all youre move useless. Keeping you away from AS half the time. Forcing you to abort casts. Rendering FF useless and DC hiting like wet noodle is not a threat to geared/ skilled CW, besides who stops CW from stacking Armor pen./crit. And yes GFs can tank up to three people sucessfully, saw happen more then once. I serously cant belive there are people arguing DC can outheal anything in PvP and that means by default they are good in PvP. LOL i dont know in what Lalala land you live but we must be clearly playing difernt games.
No its people like who warrant and approve of unnecessary and down right <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> nerfs to the class, making it harder and harder to enjoy.
*Edit* DC performs only so well as their team dose. A good team dose not need or benefit (not realy) from DC, they are like icing on the cake right now. Good to have but nothing more. Ok now im out no use trying to argue anymore.
If a cleric can outheal anything in pvp 1v1, that means they can outheal anything in pvp 1v1, I didn't say what you claim I said, dum dum. What makes cleric great in pvp is they can keep their teammates at very high health, cast a wide area 20% damage boost to teammates with a daily, and with all his circles down, foresight, some astral seals+brand of the suns on enemies, he can far outtank any gf or gwf.
Hope that clears up any concerns about whether he pvps as a cleric.
A skilled cleric will do his job and handle any fight while healing, buffing, and even dealing some damage or debuffing (FF).
A skilled cleric will heal his team so good that the team will farm the opponent team in team fights. It then becomes easy to get the nodes.
No need for full defensive, only low skilled player require that to be good in PVP as a cleric, when highly geared.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
Yet Clerics do not do the DPS other classes do so should all other classes get a DPS nerf?
I can confirm this,I played a lot of PvP with him (and he was one of the best DC in the shard imo in both PvP and PvE) and he used to own everything,surviving in towers even when severely outnumbered,I remember once in GG he survived for like 2\3 mins with 5 guys attacking him,we even played a naked PvP because of How easy con it be with a competent and geared DC (against PuG's ofc),then AR defeated him....
Come back Vera!
On the other hand, it is VERY frustrating to PVP as a low geared Cleric, because of that Righteousness.
I am not claiming that Clerics are weak because I am weak, but because low geared ones are utter <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Any other class can do better with the same gear level, especially rogues.
That's very funny how you claim yourself to be the best and all, and call your guildies to tell us that you pwnZ, but anyway, we don't give a f*ck. Do you know any of us ? No.
Pretending you rox and we sux is kinda what you have been doing on 3 or 4 pages now, claiming that you are the boss who know how to play cleric, and we all sux because we don't use "your OP build".
I spend most of my in-game time in PVP and I have no lesson to take from a moron claiming that only his build and gear is the one to go as a cleric and all others are nubs who don't know how to exploit the gear and the stats.
Oh and btw, next time try to not exploit the quests also, that way you won't get hit by the banhammer.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
I am not pretending that I rock and you suck, the last several pages prove that many of you on the forum have no idea how to play clerics and have outrageous ideas. And I never said people suck because they don't use my build, there are many viable ways to play cleric in pvp, but if you are complaining about survival, well then stacking defense and hp, and using your healing powers and feats properly is the way to do it.
I can clearly see that you have nothing to learn from me, because you're so foolish you can't even take my advice even though I've proven you wrong countless times.
Thanks for the advice captain obvious.
You have 3 encounters that heal ok, On my virtuous cleric I have one that also deals damage but I crit often and even then heal others through crits with my at-will skills. Repurpose soul makes punishing light a nice AoE heal.
Sure they don't heal in big chunks, but I a party with 2 clerics where The other cleric was "healing" I beat them for healing and topped the dps. Higher crit damage, bigger repurpose soul heals and a high crit chance with constantly passively healing really does work.
Instead of being bursty with heals that just heal I get burst heals from critical hits. The amount of healing repurpose soul gives is rather substantial. If my virtuous cleric who is not actively, but passively healing can out heal a cleric who is actively healing then how can you call repurpose soul heals insignificant? Repurpose soul gives some of the biggest burst heals.
From your remarks you clearly don't understand how the virtuous path works. A virtuous cleric still does heal but isn't specced into is so much, instead they spend more time debuffing the enemies and dealing damage so that less healing is required.
But have fun believing this isn't true if it makes you feel better.
As for the comment that I don't understand how virtuous path works, when did I ever say anything against virtuous path? Stop attacking strawmen. Yeah so a virtuous path cleric can do more damage, did I ever say otherwise dum dum? Go find strawmen elsewhere.