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Righteousness
yukuaiita
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
THIS IS NOT A FLAME TREAD.
And I invite all the crying cyptic-hater to go **** some deer somewhere else
Let's go to the question:
I love this game and I think that the DC it's a good class (I'm talking about PVE) but I don't understand the Righteousness malus: why cleric have this bad malus?
Balance?
In PvP, maybe, but in PvE I think that we've not so overpowered
During leveling up here's not so much problems about healing, but in dungeons I see that we take aggro from everywhere (even with a guardian in party) so the malus become huge ...
Someone can explain me why we're the only class with a malus since the beginning? :P
And I invite all the crying cyptic-hater to go **** some deer somewhere else
Let's go to the question:
I love this game and I think that the DC it's a good class (I'm talking about PVE) but I don't understand the Righteousness malus: why cleric have this bad malus?
Balance?
In PvP, maybe, but in PvE I think that we've not so overpowered
During leveling up here's not so much problems about healing, but in dungeons I see that we take aggro from everywhere (even with a guardian in party) so the malus become huge ...
Someone can explain me why we're the only class with a malus since the beginning? :P
Post edited by yukuaiita on
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Comments
The fact that as a consequence, DCs usually chug far more pots than everyone else is....apparently irrelevant.
Clerics that use potions don't seems a good point to take off 40% of healing
But ok, let's go play!
You called this awesome class feature "malus", so you sound almost like a hater. Anyway, yep, it's a pot issue, and no, our healing is not balance breaking in PvP since we don't have burst heals comparable to damage being dealt. I'll go grab me some deer now, I think. Or maybe a moose.
That doesnt make sense. Ift hey wanted people use more potions, why did they make lillend? That must be some cryptic kind of logic.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
It encourages the other team to actually THINK, too. "We cannot kill this person, but they are also not really a direct threat. Perhaps we could...control them? Or use one dude to occupy them constantly so we can attack the rest of their team" and so on.
Rule of thumb should be "try to gank the healer, if impossible, try to make the healer's job difficult".
In neverwinter, unless you're up against a well-geared, well-played cleric in a premade, it's usually "LOL DC! Race to see who can claim teh free kill!"
He can also easily survive vs 2 members, and can simply get away and keep healing vs 3. This is also true of a sent GWF, however the GWF can't also heal everyone around him heh.
VS pugs I have no doubt that he could tank 4
Edit: @ ulviel lol but they have multiple instant heal/temp HP. Astral + Bastion + sunburst + temp HP daily takes everyone around the cleric including himself from 25% to 80% + huge temp HP. I agree that there are not that many amazing clerics, but if you face a really good one, you will see how incredibly strong they can be.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Congrats? But I might point out that this person is not (very, very much not) your average, or even substantially above average, DC. The fact he had to get to THAT level of gear just to tank 2 players without effort...should tell you a lot. I bet he still gets one-shot and/or stunlocked to death on occasion, too.
And this is a cleric who's just blown a daily and all three encounters. This is not something they can do on rotation (gots to build teh divinity and AP somehow). They're not going to be any real use for the next 10 seconds or so, and of only limited use for a good 20 secs until things are off cooldown and they've got some D back.
If anyone needs any heals in that time period, it's basically TIEM FOR EPIC SOOTHING LIGHT with what remaining divinity they have, unless they can proc repurpose souls like craaaazy.
Who is this person? I want to meet him so that he can teach me! Tell him to message Innocence@SeamusDS for a dedicated protegee.
God **** forum TR(oll)s will lie about anything to get another class nerfed.
I agree that you have to have great gear for this to be the case, but great gear is available, and they can't have a class thats unkillable and heals all teammates. By the time his 6 seconds soulforged is done he's generally back to 75%+ and has another astral shield up...
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Plus what's to stop the other team just punting him out of the circle over and over again? If they're competent and focussed this should be easy, since DCs have no real CC resist whatsoever (and if we're taking your example, he's already blown his daily so isn't going to be using HoF for the CC resist -the only thing HoF is good for, now).
I think it's simply that because almost all DCs are easy, easy kills, nobody's ever had to really come up with strategies for handling the epic-geared, epic-skilled ones, so when they encounter a DC that ISN'T a free kill, they get confused and angry.
In premades maybe, but outside of that the class malus (called a feature XD) hurts clerics immensely. I causes them to use far more potions then anyone else in PvE and in PvP if they get hit it is usually over for them.
I think they should make the -40% in pvp only, who cares if you have to buy a couple extra potions while leveling or not, dumb reason to nerf a class.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I'm pretty sure PvP still results in quite a few kills of non-clerics, even when clerics are present, so clearly being healed at full-strength isn't actual invincibility.
Lol if you want to bash your keyboard come play against a premade with our guild, he usually only bring out the cleric in GvG as its just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> vs pugs and even other guilds.
GF's and GWF's next to the cleric are also unkillable as they have similar defenses. Obviously a CW or TR can be focused if not directly in the astral shield or if attacked by 3 players simultaneously.
BTW a super tank GWF + cleric = absolute invincibility for GWF until you kill the cleric. I know that from experience =P
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Well, duh. If he can survive with a -40% debuff, then clearly anyone near him is going to be ok, since they're getting 66% moar heals.
HOWEVER. In almost all other scenarios, where DCs are not wearing stuff that is uber (and are in fact frequently easy meat), can you explain why their NON self-heals don't make everyone else immortal? Because if losing righteousness makes DCs unkillable, it stands to reason that they should currently make everyone "not them" unkillable.
Not everyone around him has the same AC, as high defensive stats, greater tranquils, perfect soulforged, feated foresight for 11% more DR etc... I didn't think anyone could not easily come to that conclusion. Not to mention his job is healing while everyone else is worried about point capping, so they aren't just standing right beside him waiting for heals.
While I agree that nerfing everyone b/c of a class' potential to be great sucks, they do it all the time b/c the 1% that can afford insane gear are just too strong. I'm just saying that it is possible, and that you can't make assertions that DC's suck in PvP when you aren't in a PvP guild that has specifically specced and played PvP DC's.
Given that all classes have BiS everything DC is still an incredible PvP class b/c PvP is about point capping and holding not kills. Obviously if there was a deathmatch system DC would be way less effective, which is one reason they probably don't have one and give more points for point capping than kills.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Ok, let's take it as read that your UBER DC friend is unkillable, or near enough to it. AND THEN WE SHALL REMOVE HIM FROM THE EXAMPLE.
Now, we have a baseline, freshly dinged level 60 DC. You're arguing that removing the -40% to self heals would make this person waaaay too hard to kill, and I'm pointing out that this person is already providing EVERYONE ELSE WHO ISN'T THEMSELVES with healing that DOESN'T have a 40% debuff. So if healing without that debuff makes people waaaay too hard to kill, why isn't it making EVERYONE ELSE impossible to kill? If your argument has any merit, then every PvP match that features a cleric should pretty much just be "that cleric dying over and over, everyone else is immortal because woo 166% heals!"
Plus, foresight extends to your teammates, that's kinda the point.
So. Are you arguing that removing righteousness would make clerics unkillable?
IF YES, why do cleric heals as they currently stand not make everyone else unkillable?
The way you worded the question we are in agreement. I agree that the -40% makes little difference for the average cleric. But for the guild premade cleric it makes them incredible and almost too much to handle if they have DPS that stay with them.
Also if I miss-state powers or feats it's b/c my cleric is 56 and has leveled from 30 by prayer/leadership lol. All I know is that he is tankier than a GF and his heals are insanely high with P. Vorpal, so if he got the full 100% even with 4 players focusing him his teammates would be able to kill us by the time we kill him, therefore 1 kill for 4 deaths and his team wins the game every time.
righteousness brings down the lower geared clerics, I agree. But it keeps the heavily geared ones in check, which is why they probably won't remove it, that's all I'm saying.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
You know, just ideas. Or pointing out that 'balancing' based on the top 0.1% of your playerbase is stupid.
And as for my question, you are in fact saying that no, removing the heal debuff would not make clerics unkillable? If so, then yes, we are in agreement. Clerics have less armour than GFs and GWFs, do less damage than everybody unless they go full on LOL DEEPS (which we're not really considering since this is about healing), and also inexplicably can't even heal themselves properly.
There is literally zero purpose in righteousness staying. It is absolutely, and in every respect, a totally pointless victimisation of DCs.
Even if the debuff wasn't active in PvP the utterly weak heals of a cleric cannot outheal the damage of... let's say another cleric with a bar full of DD encounters UNLESS the cleric receiving the damage gears up on full deflect/regen/def... and even wih that setup a really competent CW/GF/TR can shred a cleric by continuosly CCing him (which by the way, even being full wis ( more wis = higher cc resist) he won't resist any kind of CC).
So yeah, whatevsssss.
but, to be fair... while leveling on my DC i used close to zero pots until lv 58-60ish when you get down in the caverns with the drows and those nasty spiders who dispell every frigging heal you cast on yourself. In there I felt so **** useless and unable to kill stuff before they killed me... Unless i potted like mad.
But anyway, pots shouldn't really be reason enough to nerf a class.
It's like: Oh lookie lookie, CWs can control mobs almost.... foreves and avoid taking any damage, so let's reduce their CC duration by 40% and call it "game mechanic".
WTF?
I want this class in NW.
Point is a cleric in absolute BiS is still better than a TR/GWF and sometimes CW in full BiS and that's with the current -40%. If you take away the -40% all premade's will have a fully geared DC.
Obviously more than 1 is redundant but even with the -40% with a team comp of 2 GF, TR, CW the last spot given the choice of any class BiS everything is DC for his point holding capabilities. The case could be made for Sent GWF but even though he is slightly tankier than DC he can't also heal others for huge amounts.
Edit: Please don't say "Nuh-uh, clerics are super weak" if all the pvp you do is grinding the daily. Just like you can't comment on how it feels to drive a Lamborghini when you're driving a toyota prius, an absolute "top of the line" cleric cannot be compared to the average cleric in T2.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Pretty much this, you nailed it.
Some seem to believe that punishing players for a class-defining ability is o-kay. Funny people.
Exactly. So they should never be used as a baseline for determining game balance.
That's like saying "the minimum speed on this road is 150 mph. What's wrong with that? It's not hard: a lambo can do that, easy." when everyone else is driving in priuses. All you're left with is one or two solitary lambo drivers whooshing along wondering why everyone else finds it hard.
After all, how many threads can you think of that've been along the lines of "OMG NERF DCS PLZ THEY TOO OP"? Now how many have been about TRs? Or CWs? Or GWF? Or GFs? Basically everyone agrees that clerics get a crappy deal in PvP, yet you're arguing that they're A-ok based on one top-flight dude?
Plus the 40% debuff isn't even PvP related, it literally was the ridiculous potion-usage thing.
Ok I hear you but that's also like saying ok there is no speed limit. The prius will be doing 90-100 and staying up with all the other cars, but the lambo will be doing 200+ and putting every other car to shame.
You can't let a specific build be stronger than every other class/build no matter how hard that build is to complete. If John Doe has 500 bucks and wants to be unstoppable in pvp he could be without the -40% self healing. With vorpal the heals are simply too much. They can heal enough to sustain a tanky character vs 2 other characters, which is why focusing the cleric is the only way to beat them, b/c they can't heal themselves for those huge amounts.
I agree that it sucks for lowered geared people. But they are not just going to turn a blind eye to how powerful the class can be with good gear. In PvE it's stupid though...
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Ok so make vorpal not apply to heals and just to damage? Maybe then it is the enchants that are OP and need adjustment. You shouldn't need top gear to just get by. A cleric that isn't in good gear is far weaker then any other class not in good gear.
Simply put, if your argument that "epic DCs are invincible" has any validity, all it does is highlight that the game mechanics are stupid, not that ALL CLERICS MUST SUFFER CONSTANT NERFAGE. I mean, epic GWFs with full tenes and stupidly high con are ridiculously OP, so why not reduce the constitution of all GWFs by 40%?
Plus, ulitmately, even if you could convince me that an epic DC is genuinely unkillable (am still wondering why nobody is CCing him), there are going to be three or four such people per server. Even if every match they're in results in a win, they are still only 3 or 4 people. Plus to get that geared and to contribute that much to a match, they're running in a premade, and so almost every match they're in will be a win ANYWAY.
Now think how many clerics there are per server who DON'T have that gear? ALL OF THESE guys are just getting killed on respawn because (according to you) it would otherwise make those three or four dudes even better. Yep, better the thousands suffer constantly than the four have a....marginally easier time.
If you want to keep using the speed example, it's not like removing a speed limit at all. It's setting the minimum at a speed that others can actually achieve. Yes, fast cars will be able to do that effortlessly, and much more besides, but that's still better than those few being the ONLY cars that can do anything. PvP as a DC is unarguably vastly harder than it is for any other class. You can roll up in blues and pwn face if you're basically anything else, but to just "not die, constantly" you need to be in epic stuff as a DC. This is not balance.