Lol he is laughing at HW... Then I am the one laughing.
Of course with his stats maybe his HW sucks bad. Not mine.
I can burst heal any team mate in PVP for 7500-8000 instant heal with DHW (which also direct heal myself for 4500+).
My healing word is what make the enemy team mad about me because my team simply cannot die as long as I am alive.
If they target me, then I go normal AS + divine FF, and I can tank all day long (well, not now that FF is bugged).
If my AS is not slotted then it is because I slotted SB for more aoe heals, cause my SB heals for 4500 on criticals, every 8sec, to all my nearby mates. AS or SB depends on the GS of my opponents and more specifically, it depends on whether there is high geared TR or not.
Quit trying to think your friend is the only one able to do well in PVP and that his build is the only one viable.
But with a build or another, you still can be beaten by a great DPS TR or a full control, and that would be the same without Righteousness.
Exactly which is why I'm saying those specced and geared for pvp are going to have vastly different results. Don't post how clerics are weak in PvP when you're specced and geared for PvE.
Which is again the problem. No other class truly needs different sets of gear for PvE and PvP. Sure, it can help and others classes can be absolute PvP monsters with the right gear. But I can take my GF, CW, TR, and GWF (in that order ) into PvP with the same PvE gear and still do very well. Yes, they will of course be more effective if I swap some of their gear to a more PvP centric load out that is packed a few core stats that are useful but not necessarily critical in PvE. But only on my DC do I really NEED to do that, particularly at level 60 when a DC with a 10K-13K GS can still be shredded by most other classes with much more basic gear.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
@ veramis: sorry my info comes 2nd hand but apparently the full PvP clerics in my guild find it to be terrible compared to other skills they can slot in pvp =/ I do see sunburst for shoving enemies away from points, especially when you know a TR is stealthed nearby.
@ ulviel: Um my examples come from premade vs premade, everyone has a soulforged or barkskin... If you want to stomp some pugs just buy blue/green defense/deflect/regen gear and you can do that quite easily from what I hear. If you have base PvE gear with low end enchants of course righteous sucks for you, I agree with that. But you also have to realize that there are those that would become too powerful if we removed it as they have twice the gear you do.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
cribstaxxx, HW isn't essential for pvp, but to say it's bad for pvp is just wrong. In under 15 seconds I can generate 80%+ action point, and I'm sure no one can argue against being able to spam hallowed ground daily for large area 30% damage reduction, 20% damage increase, and 25% of total hp heal over 18 seconds.
Cribstaxxx ... Clerics too powerfull... I dont know should I laugh or cry... And you are telling me they would be better than equally geared, lets say GWs. Or CWs... or... nvm. I simply dont belive you. Most of players dont have those entchants. And i would need 2 sets of gear mind you, since pvp build would make me less efficient in pve...
Lol he is laughing at HW... Then I am the one laughing.
Of course with his stats maybe his HW sucks bad. Not mine.
I can burst heal any team mate in PVP for 7500-8000 instant heal with DHW (which also direct heal myself for 4500+).
My healing word is what make the enemy team mad about me because my team simply cannot die as long as I am alive.
If they target me, then I go normal AS + divine FF, and I can tank all day long (well, not now that FF is bugged).
If my AS is not slotted then it is because I slotted SB for more aoe heals, cause my SB heals for 4500 on criticals, every 8sec, to all my nearby mates. AS or SB depends on the GS of my opponents and more specifically, it depends on whether there is high geared TR or not.
Quit trying to think your friend is the only one able to do well in PVP and that his build is the only one viable.
But with a build or another, you still can be beaten by a great DPS TR or a full control, and that would be the same without Righteousness.
Again this is coming 2nd hand. However I have never seen a cleric perform better (or even close for that matter) in PvP, and I have been playing 10-20 matches daily for quite a while now. He does not die 1v1, it just doesn't happen, especially after the xpac with those tanquils...
I don't know whether that speaks to your spec, gear, or playstyle but you can't simply say I do fine in pugs so my spec is just as good as any other. We play against full Perfect enchant rank 8-10 teams all the time, there is no comparison to pugs.
@ rabbinicus: I have seperate PvP gear for my CW and GF, seperate spec and gear for my GWF (I never play him PvE anymore) TR is the only class I would run in the same gear and spec for PvE and PvP, and honestly I never do PvE on my TR either heh. I guess seperate spec for GF also, no reason to take all the prone duration increases if you aren't focusing on PvP.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Cribstaxxx ... Clerics too powerfull... I dont know should I laugh or cry... And you are telling me they would be better than equally geared, lets say GWs. Or CWs... or... nvm. I simply dont belive you. Most of players dont have those entchants. And i would need 2 sets of gear mind you, since pvp build would make me less efficient in pve...
No I'm not saying they're too powerful. I'm saying to remove the 40% debuff that they already having (Ie buffing their heals to themselves by 40%) would make the well geared ones too powerful. They are currently fine.
I know clerics got an AP generation debuff after the patch, maybe that would make HW worth it. Again I'm going to test everything myself as I don't like to just believe all info 2nd hand, but there is no denying the results with the given spec/build and gear.
Lol it will still be a couple days till he hits 60 b/c he's currently 57 and I don't want to do quests as righteous makes my heals garbage =P So I'll just pray my way to 60, or maybe pvp.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Oh and by the way... I'd like to recomend an experiment, where you remove a certain op cleric from his party and put there some equaly geared... someone. GW or GWF, whatever. And see how would that influence teams performance. If they would do worse, I'll dye my armor pink.
"They are currently fine"... you mean the top geared ones? Better than top geared TRs for example, who suffer greatly and cannot compete with op clerics?
Oh and by the way... I'd like to recomend an experiment, where you remove a certain op cleric from his party and put there some equaly geared... someone. GW or GWF, whatever. And see how would that influence teams performance. If they would do worse, I'll dye my armor pink.
A super tank GWF is a viable replacement as he is just as tanky, and it has the same effect, he can contest a point forever. But the GWF can't heal the rest of the team too, his regen ticks only effect himself heh. To be honest in most cases I'd rather have any other class than cleric, only the incredibly geared and skilled ones are even viable for premade pvp.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
cribstaxxx, can you ask your friend to run a combat parser on the tranquil enchantments? There's not much information on the forum regarding the proc rate and internal cooldown timer. If we can get that information you would be doing us a great service .
"They are currently fine"... you mean the top geared ones? Better than top geared TRs for example, who suffer greatly and cannot compete with op clerics?
Yes they are fine, just as TR's are fine. TR's job is single target assassin good at killing squishies or finishing off stronger targets, and they do it well. DC's job is to survive and hold a point while keeping teammates alive, and when played right they also do it well.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
cribstaxxx, can you ask your friend to run a combat parser on the tranquil enchantments? There's not much information on the forum regarding the proc rate and internal cooldown timer. If we can get that information you would be doing us a great service .
When he only had 4 they were proccing for 2700, so ~700 a piece, he has at least 5 now. Oh and ~15 second CD I believe. Those are Greater's btw
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I lost my interest in this thread when I read "Clerics are OP in PvP"
Roflcopter. Why do I even bother reading the forums?
A rogue on blue regen+defense+deflect gear could also tank 3 people, but how many could he actually kill?
Yeah, exactly.
My GWF can't kill anyone either, but somehow me sitting on a point unkillable makes us win the game... it's like kills make no difference in pvp or something.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
It's a little counterintuitive. In real life, pvp is about killing, not retaining towers. If they made a pvp map about killing instead of just capturing towers, I might agree clerics may be underpowered, but since a healbot cleric should be able to make anyone walk away from the tower in 1v1 I think they are OP.
It's a little counterintuitive. In real life, pvp is about killing, not retaining towers. If they made a pvp map about killing instead of just capturing towers, I might agree clerics may be underpowered, but since a healbot cleric should be able to make anyone walk away from the tower in 1v1 I think they are OP.
Oh most definitely, if PvP were deathmatch clerics would be garbage and need a buff lol. But since every game mode is domination they are pretty good at that with all the aoe ground target abilities
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
My GWF can't kill anyone either, but somehow me sitting on a point unkillable makes us win the game... it's like kills make no difference in pvp or something.
Yeah, my point exactly. So clerics are forced to gear like that because it's the only way to do something in PvP. It basically allows you to regen HP. Period. Healing others? Not so much, or at least in a way that makes it gamebreaking. Clerics lack burst healing. A cleric can heal for 6k at best with a "burst" (lol burst) but a DD can deal 25k damage (and even more) with a single shot. You cannot possibly heal a TR or a CW who's being chain CCed and burst damaged to death. you don't need to heal a GWF, you don't really need to assist a GF... what's left? Stand there throwing fancy healing spells to you glowing like a christmas tree. Nice performance.
And seriously, veramis1, imma stop reading all your craptalk. There's no PvP in real life. In real life that's called either War, Murder, Homicide, Genocide, or simply "crime in general". If you're really comparing the act of killing some pixels in game to killing someone in real life i'd suggest you to seek professional help.
Yeah, my point exactly. So clerics are forced to gear like that because it's the only way to do something in PvP. It basically allows you to regen HP. Period. Healing others? Not so much, or at least in a way that makes it gamebreaking. Clerics lack burst healing. A cleric can heal for 6k at best with a "burst" (lol burst) but a DD can deal 25k damage (and even more) with a single shot. You cannot possibly heal a TR or a CW who's being chain CCed and burst damaged to death. you don't need to heal a GWF, you don't really need to assist a GF... what's left? Stand there throwing fancy healing spells to you glowing like a christmas tree. Nice performance.
And seriously, veramis1, imma stop reading all your craptalk. There's no PvP in real life. In real life that's called either War, Murder, Homicide, Genocide, or simply "crime in general". If you're really comparing the act of killing some pixels in game to killing someone in real life i'd suggest you to seek professional help.
No pun intended. In case you decide to PvP me.
I just told you their most powerful build. You can build whatever you want, you just won't be optimal. Just like every other class. CW's that take no debuffs, sure they have a little extra CC but they lose huge damage overall b/c they don't buff everyone else damage. GWF's that try to go dps and then get 2 shot... sadly they are probably the most forced into their spec. Sure your dps may be awesome but you are as squishy as a TR now. GF's just spec for prone juggle.
Everyone has an optimum spec, TR is about the only class that can do pretty equally well with different specs, I personally prefer executioner but I've seen some good saboteurs.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
To be honest in most cases I'd rather have any other class than cleric, only the incredibly geared and skilled ones are even viable for premade pvp.
See, I don't understand how you can say things like this, yet also maintain clerics would be OP if righteousness was removed. It's full-on cognitive dissonance.
"Unless clerics absolutely balls-to-the-wall gear themselves up to counter their massive, glaring inherent flaws, they're totally non-viable in PvP. Therefore they're absolutely fine."
Point is they shouldn't need to. A class shouldn't need to spec themselves to incredibly epic levels, or spec themselves entirely counterintuitively (regen really helps: this is a silly state of affairs) just to make themselves viable. Nobody else does.
Saying that buffing DCs would make your one, sole, incredibly well geared dude even better is totally irrelevant. If he's as amazing as you say, then he basically never dies anyway (so since you can't die less frequently than 'never', I doubt a buff would increase his survivability by any measurable yardstick), and if he dies often enough for a buff to make him noticably tankier, then clearly it's a sad, sad state of affairs that even someone THAT geared could benefit from a buff.
Taking a single example and extrapolating them to an entire character class is inherently silly, but if it shows anything it's simply that the power curve is entirely broken. No progression should go "worm food >>worm food>>worm food>>worm food>>GOD".
See, I don't understand how you can say things like this, yet also maintain clerics would be OP if righteousness was removed. It's full-on cognitive dissonance.
"Unless clerics absolutely balls-to-the-wall gear themselves up to counter their massive, glaring inherent flaws, they're totally non-viable in PvP. Therefore they're absolutely fine."
Point is they shouldn't need to. A class shouldn't need to spec themselves to incredibly epic levels, or spec themselves entirely counterintuitively (regen really helps: this is a silly state of affairs) just to make themselves viable. Nobody else does.
Saying that buffing DCs would make your one, sole, incredibly well geared dude even better is totally irrelevant. If he's as amazing as you say, then he basically never dies anyway (so since you can't die less frequently than 'never', I doubt a buff would increase his survivability by any measurable yardstick), and if he dies often enough for a buff to make him noticably tankier, then clearly it's a sad, sad state of affairs that even someone THAT geared could benefit from a buff.
Taking a single example and extrapolating them to an entire character class is inherently silly, but if it shows anything it's simply that the power curve is entirely broken. No progression should go "worm food >>worm food>>worm food>>worm food>>GOD".
That's it.
But hey, clerics are OP you know.... :rolleyes:
I just told you their most powerful build. You can build whatever you want, you just won't be optimal. Just like every other class. CW's that take no debuffs, sure they have a little extra CC but they lose huge damage overall b/c they don't buff everyone else damage. GWF's that try to go dps and then get 2 shot... sadly they are probably the most forced into their spec. Sure your dps may be awesome but you are as squishy as a TR now. GF's just spec for prone juggle.
Everyone has an optimum spec, TR is about the only class that can do pretty equally well with different specs, I personally prefer executioner but I've seen some good saboteurs.
And there's a big difference between being optimal and unviable and the cleric specs go from optimal (if a cleric can ever be optimal) to unviable without an kind of mid term.
A DD specced cleric cannot take anyone with half a wit down. (DL, DG, SL/CoBL) The damage is just not enough and the CC is nowhere near effective.
You can have a bar full of debuffs (DG, BTS, POD) but then what, do you poke your enemy with a spoon till' it's dead? Because HoF is out of the map already.
A mix of it? Well, debuff and hit... try your luck but it won't work. Besides you'd be dead before launching your 2nd attack anyway.
Not to mention that you need to invest in Arp, crit & moar power leaving your defensive attributes to ground level = free kill! let's eat the cleric.
If you go heal/dd spec well.. you're just a free kill again. A bit of this, a bit of that but really no use whatsoever.
So you're telling me that the ONLY way for a cleric to be aoptimal i to become a self-healing punching bag with blue gear and nothing more than healing spells. Sounds balanced. Sounds fun. Sounds really OVERPOWERED. Clerics are clearly gamebreaking.
morsitans, some key cleric skills have fixed effects that don't depend much on the quality of your gear. For example, astral shield is 20%, foresight is 11%, and hallowed ground is 30% damage reduction. I have pvp'ed a lot in t1 pvp armor set with no enchantments and still been quite difficult to take down. But even with the handicap I still had more hp and defense than most clerics, because most clerics just stack recovery, crit and power up to the stratosphere while totally neglecting their own survival.
....that post isn't entirely self-consistent. Or at least, the first statement doesn't relate to the latter in any way.
"There are three skills that provide DR completely independent of gear"
"I have survived better in PvP because I had gear that did X"
The former is unarguably true and those skills rarely leave my bar. Mitigation is awesomesauce. The latter is where the problem lies.
Simply put, other classes do damage, and in PvP ...do damage. If they want to focus on PvP, they can spec into burst damage, because burst damage is great. Generally though, if you can put out the deeps in PvE, it'll work entirely happily in PvP, too.
When DCs do PvP, they should be healing, but 90% of the time they're just punchbags. And to spec into PvP, their best approach is not to focus on healing, but to stack stats that make them....tougher punchbags. Stacking to increase your healing output comes entirely secondary to just making sure you can be punched around for longer, because then your crappy heals might have enough time to save you, or someone else on your team might come save you (it can happen). What's even worse is that this actually works quite well in PvE, too: neglecting healing output to just become stupidly tanky is not a bad strategy. It's just that it's not obligatory in PvE. Also, much less necessary since the aggro fix (unless your CW and GF suck).
This is silly.
ANYWAY, as far as anyone knows, from dev commentary etc, the early testing stages noted that DCs tended to have more gold than the other classes by the time they hit 60. Because they weren't spending much on potions (quite why ANY class needed to spend money on pots before 60 seems bizarre, but hey). They crunched the numbers (or, being cryptic, made numbers up) and reduced cleric self-heals by 40% to 'balance' this out.
That's it, that's the justification.
Everything we've done since has been in an effort to circumvent this pointless debuff. Focussing on the powers that aren't affected by it, stacking defense/regen over other stats, taking the cleric companion (srsly wtf), forming double cleric parties, etc.
Stacking defense and hp is a good idea for a cleric in pvp and pve. I completely disagree with people saying you need a pvp specific set as cleric. If you want to do dps in pvp or pve, high prophet is the answer. If you want to survive in pvp or pve, high hp and defense is the answer. Even in the worst case scenario, a cleric built for survival should still heal at 85-90% of what a cleric with stratospheric power/crit/recovery, and in my opinion, he should heal more because his feet will be planted on the ground and he will be spamming at-wills like astral seal and sacred flame, and building more action point and divinity to cast more stuff than a 1600 defense cleric trying to run away.
Stacking defense and hp is a good idea for a cleric in pvp and pve. I completely disagree with people saying you need a pvp specific set as cleric. If you want to do dps in pvp or pve, high prophet is the answer. If you want to survive in pvp or pve, high hp and defense is the answer. Even in the worst case scenario, a cleric built for survival should still heal at 85-90% of what a cleric with stratospheric power/crit/recovery, and in my opinion, he should heal more because his feet will be planted on the ground and he will be spamming at-wills like astral seal and sacred flame, and building more action point and divinity to cast more stuff than a 1600 defense cleric trying to run away.
Most clerics with decent gear (not even BiS) have more than 2k defense already without having to invest heavily on it having already reached the crit and recovery softcaps, wtf are you talking about 1600 def? O.o
What makes clerics punchbags is not the ammount of Def they can stack you know? after 2.3k there isn't much you can add there. They give up crit in to invest in deflect, they give up power and recovery to invest in regen.
Just try and clarify me something: Why do the cleric PVP sets have LIFESTEAL on them? I want some rational explanation. Justify to me how a "punchbag optimal rollsteamer" cleric can benefit from lifesteal.
oroness, I have seen clerics running around with 1600 defense, and crazy amounts of power/crit/recovery. There is plenty of difference between 2k defense and 3k defense or almost 5% DR, and between 22k and 24k hp. A 33% DR cleric can stack his DR up to 44% from foresight passive, then throw on AS it becomes 64%. Every point in DR brings you closer to the cap, and each further point becomes more valuable. And HP becomes more valuable the higher your DR is as well.
the 10% lifesteal from the pvp set is actually decent. It gives similar damage returned as health as astral seal, and stacks with it. Throw a bunch of astral seals on your enemies, sunburst and reap the life steal. It also works well with brand of the sun and astral seal.
I'm full miracle healer with 2300 defense and 1600 deflect, still 3200 recovery and > 2000 crit, 25 K HP ... most of my power stat is located at my stone which is only is for PvE.
Does 2300 defense and 1600 delfect and 25 K HP helps me survive in PvP ... yes. Can I take the same punishment as GF and GWF? ... hell, no. A good GWF/GF lough just about the clerics trying to tank.
If you fully concentrate on regen, defense, deflect, HP and - in order to do so - throw away your T2 equip to slot blue gear as e.g. GCTRL has done ... something is wrong with the T2 gear. In no situation should blue gear be more effective then the most best and defensive T2 set.
Oh, and going back to that 3k def thingy... You're surprised to see clerics with 1600 defense and i'm surprised to see them with 3k. 2000-2300 defense and 1000 regen or deflect has the same and i venture say higher effect than 1k more defense in terms of survivability.
Comments
Of course with his stats maybe his HW sucks bad. Not mine.
I can burst heal any team mate in PVP for 7500-8000 instant heal with DHW (which also direct heal myself for 4500+).
My healing word is what make the enemy team mad about me because my team simply cannot die as long as I am alive.
If they target me, then I go normal AS + divine FF, and I can tank all day long (well, not now that FF is bugged).
If my AS is not slotted then it is because I slotted SB for more aoe heals, cause my SB heals for 4500 on criticals, every 8sec, to all my nearby mates. AS or SB depends on the GS of my opponents and more specifically, it depends on whether there is high geared TR or not.
Quit trying to think your friend is the only one able to do well in PVP and that his build is the only one viable.
But with a build or another, you still can be beaten by a great DPS TR or a full control, and that would be the same without Righteousness.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
Which is again the problem. No other class truly needs different sets of gear for PvE and PvP. Sure, it can help and others classes can be absolute PvP monsters with the right gear. But I can take my GF, CW, TR, and GWF (in that order
@ ulviel: Um my examples come from premade vs premade, everyone has a soulforged or barkskin... If you want to stomp some pugs just buy blue/green defense/deflect/regen gear and you can do that quite easily from what I hear. If you have base PvE gear with low end enchants of course righteous sucks for you, I agree with that. But you also have to realize that there are those that would become too powerful if we removed it as they have twice the gear you do.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Again this is coming 2nd hand. However I have never seen a cleric perform better (or even close for that matter) in PvP, and I have been playing 10-20 matches daily for quite a while now. He does not die 1v1, it just doesn't happen, especially after the xpac with those tanquils...
I don't know whether that speaks to your spec, gear, or playstyle but you can't simply say I do fine in pugs so my spec is just as good as any other. We play against full Perfect enchant rank 8-10 teams all the time, there is no comparison to pugs.
@ rabbinicus: I have seperate PvP gear for my CW and GF, seperate spec and gear for my GWF (I never play him PvE anymore) TR is the only class I would run in the same gear and spec for PvE and PvP, and honestly I never do PvE on my TR either heh. I guess seperate spec for GF also, no reason to take all the prone duration increases if you aren't focusing on PvP.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
No I'm not saying they're too powerful. I'm saying to remove the 40% debuff that they already having (Ie buffing their heals to themselves by 40%) would make the well geared ones too powerful. They are currently fine.
I know clerics got an AP generation debuff after the patch, maybe that would make HW worth it. Again I'm going to test everything myself as I don't like to just believe all info 2nd hand, but there is no denying the results with the given spec/build and gear.
Lol it will still be a couple days till he hits 60 b/c he's currently 57 and I don't want to do quests as righteous makes my heals garbage =P So I'll just pray my way to 60, or maybe pvp.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
A super tank GWF is a viable replacement as he is just as tanky, and it has the same effect, he can contest a point forever. But the GWF can't heal the rest of the team too, his regen ticks only effect himself heh. To be honest in most cases I'd rather have any other class than cleric, only the incredibly geared and skilled ones are even viable for premade pvp.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Yes they are fine, just as TR's are fine. TR's job is single target assassin good at killing squishies or finishing off stronger targets, and they do it well. DC's job is to survive and hold a point while keeping teammates alive, and when played right they also do it well.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
When he only had 4 they were proccing for 2700, so ~700 a piece, he has at least 5 now. Oh and ~15 second CD I believe. Those are Greater's btw
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Roflcopter. Why do I even bother reading the forums?
A rogue on blue regen+defense+deflect gear could also tank 3 people, but how many could he actually kill?
Yeah, exactly.
I want this class in NW.
My GWF can't kill anyone either, but somehow me sitting on a point unkillable makes us win the game... it's like kills make no difference in pvp or something.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Oh most definitely, if PvP were deathmatch clerics would be garbage and need a buff lol. But since every game mode is domination they are pretty good at that with all the aoe ground target abilities
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Yeah, my point exactly. So clerics are forced to gear like that because it's the only way to do something in PvP. It basically allows you to regen HP. Period. Healing others? Not so much, or at least in a way that makes it gamebreaking. Clerics lack burst healing. A cleric can heal for 6k at best with a "burst" (lol burst) but a DD can deal 25k damage (and even more) with a single shot. You cannot possibly heal a TR or a CW who's being chain CCed and burst damaged to death. you don't need to heal a GWF, you don't really need to assist a GF... what's left? Stand there throwing fancy healing spells to you glowing like a christmas tree. Nice performance.
And seriously, veramis1, imma stop reading all your craptalk. There's no PvP in real life. In real life that's called either War, Murder, Homicide, Genocide, or simply "crime in general". If you're really comparing the act of killing some pixels in game to killing someone in real life i'd suggest you to seek professional help.
No pun intended. In case you decide to PvP me.
I want this class in NW.
I just told you their most powerful build. You can build whatever you want, you just won't be optimal. Just like every other class. CW's that take no debuffs, sure they have a little extra CC but they lose huge damage overall b/c they don't buff everyone else damage. GWF's that try to go dps and then get 2 shot... sadly they are probably the most forced into their spec. Sure your dps may be awesome but you are as squishy as a TR now. GF's just spec for prone juggle.
Everyone has an optimum spec, TR is about the only class that can do pretty equally well with different specs, I personally prefer executioner but I've seen some good saboteurs.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
See, I don't understand how you can say things like this, yet also maintain clerics would be OP if righteousness was removed. It's full-on cognitive dissonance.
"Unless clerics absolutely balls-to-the-wall gear themselves up to counter their massive, glaring inherent flaws, they're totally non-viable in PvP. Therefore they're absolutely fine."
Point is they shouldn't need to. A class shouldn't need to spec themselves to incredibly epic levels, or spec themselves entirely counterintuitively (regen really helps: this is a silly state of affairs) just to make themselves viable. Nobody else does.
Saying that buffing DCs would make your one, sole, incredibly well geared dude even better is totally irrelevant. If he's as amazing as you say, then he basically never dies anyway (so since you can't die less frequently than 'never', I doubt a buff would increase his survivability by any measurable yardstick), and if he dies often enough for a buff to make him noticably tankier, then clearly it's a sad, sad state of affairs that even someone THAT geared could benefit from a buff.
Taking a single example and extrapolating them to an entire character class is inherently silly, but if it shows anything it's simply that the power curve is entirely broken. No progression should go "worm food >>worm food>>worm food>>worm food>>GOD".
That's it.
But hey, clerics are OP you know.... :rolleyes:
And there's a big difference between being optimal and unviable and the cleric specs go from optimal (if a cleric can ever be optimal) to unviable without an kind of mid term.
A DD specced cleric cannot take anyone with half a wit down. (DL, DG, SL/CoBL) The damage is just not enough and the CC is nowhere near effective.
You can have a bar full of debuffs (DG, BTS, POD) but then what, do you poke your enemy with a spoon till' it's dead? Because HoF is out of the map already.
A mix of it? Well, debuff and hit... try your luck but it won't work. Besides you'd be dead before launching your 2nd attack anyway.
Not to mention that you need to invest in Arp, crit & moar power leaving your defensive attributes to ground level = free kill! let's eat the cleric.
If you go heal/dd spec well.. you're just a free kill again. A bit of this, a bit of that but really no use whatsoever.
So you're telling me that the ONLY way for a cleric to be aoptimal i to become a self-healing punching bag with blue gear and nothing more than healing spells. Sounds balanced. Sounds fun. Sounds really OVERPOWERED. Clerics are clearly gamebreaking.
I want this class in NW.
"There are three skills that provide DR completely independent of gear"
"I have survived better in PvP because I had gear that did X"
The former is unarguably true and those skills rarely leave my bar. Mitigation is awesomesauce. The latter is where the problem lies.
Simply put, other classes do damage, and in PvP ...do damage. If they want to focus on PvP, they can spec into burst damage, because burst damage is great. Generally though, if you can put out the deeps in PvE, it'll work entirely happily in PvP, too.
When DCs do PvP, they should be healing, but 90% of the time they're just punchbags. And to spec into PvP, their best approach is not to focus on healing, but to stack stats that make them....tougher punchbags.
Stacking to increase your healing output comes entirely secondary to just making sure you can be punched around for longer, because then your crappy heals might have enough time to save you, or someone else on your team might come save you (it can happen). What's even worse is that this actually works quite well in PvE, too: neglecting healing output to just become stupidly tanky is not a bad strategy. It's just that it's not obligatory in PvE. Also, much less necessary since the aggro fix (unless your CW and GF suck).
This is silly.
ANYWAY, as far as anyone knows, from dev commentary etc, the early testing stages noted that DCs tended to have more gold than the other classes by the time they hit 60. Because they weren't spending much on potions (quite why ANY class needed to spend money on pots before 60 seems bizarre, but hey). They crunched the numbers (or, being cryptic, made numbers up) and reduced cleric self-heals by 40% to 'balance' this out.
That's it, that's the justification.
Everything we've done since has been in an effort to circumvent this pointless debuff. Focussing on the powers that aren't affected by it, stacking defense/regen over other stats, taking the cleric companion (srsly wtf), forming double cleric parties, etc.
Most clerics with decent gear (not even BiS) have more than 2k defense already without having to invest heavily on it having already reached the crit and recovery softcaps, wtf are you talking about 1600 def? O.o
What makes clerics punchbags is not the ammount of Def they can stack you know? after 2.3k there isn't much you can add there. They give up crit in to invest in deflect, they give up power and recovery to invest in regen.
Just try and clarify me something: Why do the cleric PVP sets have LIFESTEAL on them? I want some rational explanation. Justify to me how a "punchbag optimal rollsteamer" cleric can benefit from lifesteal.
I want this class in NW.
the 10% lifesteal from the pvp set is actually decent. It gives similar damage returned as health as astral seal, and stacks with it. Throw a bunch of astral seals on your enemies, sunburst and reap the life steal. It also works well with brand of the sun and astral seal.
Does 2300 defense and 1600 delfect and 25 K HP helps me survive in PvP ... yes. Can I take the same punishment as GF and GWF? ... hell, no. A good GWF/GF lough just about the clerics trying to tank.
If you fully concentrate on regen, defense, deflect, HP and - in order to do so - throw away your T2 equip to slot blue gear as e.g. GCTRL has done ... something is wrong with the T2 gear. In no situation should blue gear be more effective then the most best and defensive T2 set.
Oh, and going back to that 3k def thingy... You're surprised to see clerics with 1600 defense and i'm surprised to see them with 3k. 2000-2300 defense and 1000 regen or deflect has the same and i venture say higher effect than 1k more defense in terms of survivability.
I want this class in NW.