Throw in +40% heals to self and I'm sorry but it's just too strong =(
First of all, 40% sound much, but isn't. 40% more damage on a rogue or wizard or any fighter ... that would be very noticeable and quite overpowered. However, 40% more healing on a cleric? Not so much.
The reason is heals have much lower values compared to damage powers. This means 40% in absolute numbers is quite low, escpacialy because all heal spells mostly are heal over time. The only point where it would be noticeable would be maybe a nice crit of divine healing word.
If you think that a cleric with 40% more self heal is overpowered, then we have to instantly nerf GFs and GWFs - they can take alot of more punishment with hp/regen builds then a cleric and are not so much dependant on using healing powers. In addition, they can be both CC imune and - in contrast to a tank cleric - dealing quite good burst damage by tenebrous enchants.
Righteousness has to go.
Infact, from the point of lore, clerics should heal them self even for more then others. In Forgotten Realms the gods give the cleric the ability to use the god's divine energy to cast powers. Differently to wizards, the power of a cleric is not his own, it is only "borrowed" from the god to serve his goals in the existance plane of mortals. If a cleric becomes more powerfull then only because she raised in the favor of her god. Some clerics even become "choosen" of their god beeing even more powerfull and having access to very special powers.
At a certain epic level - which we have here in Neverwinter - Gods in Forgotten Realms directly watch over their champions. It is more then cumbersome for a god to loose such a valuable and faithful follower in battle, because it directly decrease the god's influence in Toril. While the god doesn't care much for the group member of the cleric for more then that they are a tool for fulfilling the mission, the god cares alot for the cleric. Therefore, self heals even should be stronger then group heals.
Therefore, in the original setting of Forgotten Realm, you think twice before attacking a high level Cleric. Clerics at high level can be more powerfull and dangerous then wizards, because if necessary and important for the god, he can channel his power through the cleric.
Gah this thread is back again =/ Yes you are correct dixie, it is more like 66% which even more so refutes xiphenon's claim that 40% 'isn't that much". Compound 66% greater heals by 125% crit severity and **** I just went from 33% to 100% in healing word + sunburst crit.
ie lets say divinity HW normally heals you for about 3k, that probably close to accurate I think, but I don't parse numbers much. So minus righteousness that's 6k (even slightly rounded down is fine) and then with P. vorpal you can crit yourself for 13,500 lol. Almost completely instant half of your health bar, no that's not OP at all, that would be totally cool...
Add in the fact that you have 50% DR (outside of AS) and 27k health and you would be pretty much unkillable with less than 3 players constantly focusing you.
Again my numbers are rounded, but I'm pretty sure divinity HW is close to 3k self heal if not more.
Edit: @ dixie: Obviously I have been making the argument that a 13k+ full epic clad DC is quite viable and actually the best possible build as you can also have quite nice offensive stats to go along with your high def/defl/HP.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
ie lets say divinity HW normally heals you for about 3k, that probably close to accurate I think, but I don't parse numbers much. So minus righteousness that's 6k (even slightly rounded down is fine) and then with P. vorpal you can crit yourself for 13,500 lol. Almost completely instant half of your health bar, no that's not OP at all, that would be totally cool...
Add in the fact that you have 50% DR (outside of AS) and 27k health and you would be pretty much unkillable with less than 3 players constantly focusing you.
Again my numbers are rounded, but I'm pretty sure divinity HW is close to 3k self heal if not more.
Edit: @ dixie: Obviously I have been making the argument that a 13k+ full epic clad DC is quite viable and actually the best possible build as you can also have quite nice offensive stats to go along with your high def/defl/HP.
First. You need to count in that every player knowing how to equip will have at least 15% armor penetretation for PvE reasons. Players with BiS will most likely have more, because in PvP armor penetration scales much better then power - and we need to view BiS player here, because you already look at BiS clerics. So your 50% damage resistance is breaking away and effectively maybe around 20-30% in total. But Then remember there are abilities that reduce your armor again, like shield slam of GF or wicked reminder of TR. Some powers bypass armor completly.
Second. 13 K crit self heal with crit is not much compared to the damage e.g. a BiS rogue can dish out. So, even with RO gone, I doubt a BiS cleric will be unkillable by BiS group. Maybe he will be quite hard to kill without proper tactic, but there is always the option to perma CC him to death. With burst damage and CC lock unable to cast any spell and knocked out of their astral shield, a cleric still will go down like nothing in few secs. At the moment with BiS, you just need to spam all your damage abilities mindlessly and any cleric will go done.
This is much more than it actually heals for, even without righteousness, so the rest of your math is also way off. Go test it yourself.
Yeah I was rounding based on the % chunk of my bar it refilled lol, I will check it out today and get some real numbers. But either way it's going to be at least 10k, that's like double and then some what any class can hit you for while inside AS with 50% DR.
@xiphenon: Lol if any GF uses tide of iron or TR uses wicked reminder in PvP I would be more than happy to be on the opposing team, as we'd have already won b/c of their utterly terrible power choices. TR's lashing blade me for 10k or less 99% of the time and I have much less than 50% DR as I haven't finished my T2 set yet (almost there =D) If I'm in AS it's more like 5k.
I think another problem is where you are positioning your cleric if you get CC locked. When game starts I rush 2, but I stay at quite a distance from the point. I throw AS on my team and heal as needed while staying out of the fray. If I'm targetted by CW I can move back, and if I'm targetted by TR I can move forward into my AS. Half the battle is avoiding CC by proximity, and the other half is knowing how to dodge it.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
@xiphenon: Lol if any GF uses tide of iron or TR uses wicked reminder in PvP I would be more than happy to be on the opposing team, as we'd have already won b/c of their utterly terrible power choices. TR's lashing blade me for 10k or less 99% of the time and I have much less than 50% DR as I haven't finished my T2 set yet (almost there =D) If I'm in AS it's more like 5k.
A critical lashing blade (my rogue has 50% crit chance at 9.6 K GS) after wicked reminder from stealth can hit for more damage then a simple lashing blade from stealth, escpacially considering the fact that the rogue debuffs increase the damage of all other damage dealers.
PS:
Ok, now I bought a full set of youth, removed my gemmed miracle healer T2 set and ... was horrified. Just this still low amount of regeneration increase the lifetime in PvP by faktor 2 ... and the youth set was not even gemmed.
Now I can imagine how it must be to walk around with a optimized tank build. Does that mean that RO has to stay for me? Hell, no! Just regneration is totally out of control. Every character can get this ridiculous amount of self healing!
So, in principe how regeneration works now, for defense it tops every T2 set in PvP and maybe even PvE - and that is not balanced. You get a full set of youth quite cheap on AH ... it is so cheap it is almost that you get payed AD if you buy it. Now compare this to the effort it cost to get the full T2 miracle healer set ...
Comments
First of all, 40% sound much, but isn't. 40% more damage on a rogue or wizard or any fighter ... that would be very noticeable and quite overpowered. However, 40% more healing on a cleric? Not so much.
The reason is heals have much lower values compared to damage powers. This means 40% in absolute numbers is quite low, escpacialy because all heal spells mostly are heal over time. The only point where it would be noticeable would be maybe a nice crit of divine healing word.
If you think that a cleric with 40% more self heal is overpowered, then we have to instantly nerf GFs and GWFs - they can take alot of more punishment with hp/regen builds then a cleric and are not so much dependant on using healing powers. In addition, they can be both CC imune and - in contrast to a tank cleric - dealing quite good burst damage by tenebrous enchants.
Righteousness has to go.
Infact, from the point of lore, clerics should heal them self even for more then others. In Forgotten Realms the gods give the cleric the ability to use the god's divine energy to cast powers. Differently to wizards, the power of a cleric is not his own, it is only "borrowed" from the god to serve his goals in the existance plane of mortals. If a cleric becomes more powerfull then only because she raised in the favor of her god. Some clerics even become "choosen" of their god beeing even more powerfull and having access to very special powers.
At a certain epic level - which we have here in Neverwinter - Gods in Forgotten Realms directly watch over their champions. It is more then cumbersome for a god to loose such a valuable and faithful follower in battle, because it directly decrease the god's influence in Toril. While the god doesn't care much for the group member of the cleric for more then that they are a tool for fulfilling the mission, the god cares alot for the cleric. Therefore, self heals even should be stronger then group heals.
Therefore, in the original setting of Forgotten Realm, you think twice before attacking a high level Cleric. Clerics at high level can be more powerfull and dangerous then wizards, because if necessary and important for the god, he can channel his power through the cleric.
ie lets say divinity HW normally heals you for about 3k, that probably close to accurate I think, but I don't parse numbers much. So minus righteousness that's 6k (even slightly rounded down is fine) and then with P. vorpal you can crit yourself for 13,500 lol. Almost completely instant half of your health bar, no that's not OP at all, that would be totally cool...
Add in the fact that you have 50% DR (outside of AS) and 27k health and you would be pretty much unkillable with less than 3 players constantly focusing you.
Again my numbers are rounded, but I'm pretty sure divinity HW is close to 3k self heal if not more.
Edit: @ dixie: Obviously I have been making the argument that a 13k+ full epic clad DC is quite viable and actually the best possible build as you can also have quite nice offensive stats to go along with your high def/defl/HP.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
First. You need to count in that every player knowing how to equip will have at least 15% armor penetretation for PvE reasons. Players with BiS will most likely have more, because in PvP armor penetration scales much better then power - and we need to view BiS player here, because you already look at BiS clerics. So your 50% damage resistance is breaking away and effectively maybe around 20-30% in total. But Then remember there are abilities that reduce your armor again, like shield slam of GF or wicked reminder of TR. Some powers bypass armor completly.
Second. 13 K crit self heal with crit is not much compared to the damage e.g. a BiS rogue can dish out. So, even with RO gone, I doubt a BiS cleric will be unkillable by BiS group. Maybe he will be quite hard to kill without proper tactic, but there is always the option to perma CC him to death. With burst damage and CC lock unable to cast any spell and knocked out of their astral shield, a cleric still will go down like nothing in few secs. At the moment with BiS, you just need to spam all your damage abilities mindlessly and any cleric will go done.
This is much more than it actually heals for, even without righteousness, so the rest of your math is also way off. Go test it yourself.
Yeah I was rounding based on the % chunk of my bar it refilled lol, I will check it out today and get some real numbers. But either way it's going to be at least 10k, that's like double and then some what any class can hit you for while inside AS with 50% DR.
@xiphenon: Lol if any GF uses tide of iron or TR uses wicked reminder in PvP I would be more than happy to be on the opposing team, as we'd have already won b/c of their utterly terrible power choices. TR's lashing blade me for 10k or less 99% of the time and I have much less than 50% DR as I haven't finished my T2 set yet (almost there =D) If I'm in AS it's more like 5k.
I think another problem is where you are positioning your cleric if you get CC locked. When game starts I rush 2, but I stay at quite a distance from the point. I throw AS on my team and heal as needed while staying out of the fray. If I'm targetted by CW I can move back, and if I'm targetted by TR I can move forward into my AS. Half the battle is avoiding CC by proximity, and the other half is knowing how to dodge it.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
A critical lashing blade (my rogue has 50% crit chance at 9.6 K GS) after wicked reminder from stealth can hit for more damage then a simple lashing blade from stealth, escpacially considering the fact that the rogue debuffs increase the damage of all other damage dealers.
PS:
Ok, now I bought a full set of youth, removed my gemmed miracle healer T2 set and ... was horrified. Just this still low amount of regeneration increase the lifetime in PvP by faktor 2 ... and the youth set was not even gemmed.
Now I can imagine how it must be to walk around with a optimized tank build. Does that mean that RO has to stay for me? Hell, no! Just regneration is totally out of control. Every character can get this ridiculous amount of self healing!
So, in principe how regeneration works now, for defense it tops every T2 set in PvP and maybe even PvE - and that is not balanced. You get a full set of youth quite cheap on AH ... it is so cheap it is almost that you get payed AD if you buy it. Now compare this to the effort it cost to get the full T2 miracle healer set ...