What wins PvP? Does amount of kills or personal score have any effect on the outcome? It doesn't matter if cleric gets 0 kills 0 assists, if he keeps his team healed while they kill the entire enemy team then they win b/c they can cap all points. Clerics make amazing point defenders as well. Competitive guilds play PvP to win, not to see who can get most kills.
If we hold a tournament and team A gets 200 kills to team B's measly 20 but team B wins 1000-990 Team A is eliminated and Team B moves on.
The cleric can keep his team healed during a fight, that's why he is the first target. If he could heal himself for 100% as well he simply would not go down before his teammates took all enemies down, and as long as he had some assistance could hold a point forever.
I imagine that the people arguing have clerics themselves. Try speccing specifically for PvP survivability and with decent crit chance. I believe righteousness, the bottom feat tier, is the best for survivability. Just switching around your build for PvP would make you 100% better at it.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Plz to explain why having 100% of the heal effect doesn't make everyone else invincible?
That is the key issue here. I don't care about epic clerics, or epic ANYTHING. At that level all you're doing is exposing the flaws in the core game mechanics. Which are, clearly, many.
BUT. The key point to my argument, and I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH, is that everyone who is not the cleric doing the healing benefits from 100% of the heals. If you are saying that "healing himself for 100% would be broken", then it is absolutely a corrollary that healing ANYONE for 100% should also be broken. Say I throw a divine healing word onto a TR, say he gets 3k health plus a HoT. By your logic, this should make him invincible. He should only be getting 1.8k health plus a commensurately lower HoT. Anything else would be totally broken.
Right? Right?
But since this is demonstrably not the case, in neither PvP or indeed PvE, we can safely conclude that getting 100% of the benefit of our OWN HEALS would not suddenly make all clerics immortal. Or indeed anything even close to that. It might, perchance, make us slightly less easy meat, though.
Seriously, when a HEALER has to stack defense and regeneration for PvP because they can't actually effectively heal themselves (healing being the one, unique, specific-to-them class feature they have), then something is very wrong.
Why do you focus the cleric in PvP? B/c he makes it 20 times harder to kill anyone else. Currently it's only 12 times harder to kill the cleric, but 20 times harder to kill anyone near him. If you made it just as hard to kill the cleric then any team with a brain would focus down those attacking the cleric before they could kill him and therefor hold the point forever.
You can't say exclude the high tier gear either, it's in the game and available to anyone that gets enough AD to purchase it. In a couple months there will be tons of clerics with amazing gear.
Obviously everyone is not invincible but they are so much harder to kill that the cleric MUST be targetted, and if the cleric also had 100% healing effects he could easily live long enough for his team to kill the enemies.
Have you ever played against a team with 2 clerics? Most annoying thing I've fought against when they're on the same point. Takes forever and a day to bring one down. B/c they both have 100% healing...
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Oh dear god. No, ganking the cleric because he's making it harder to kill everyone else is how it SHOULD be.
At the moment anywhere outside of premade PvP, it's "gank the cleric because it's laughably, laughably easy (and besides, the rest of his team have run off in random directions to PWN FACE)". Clerics have no CC resist and what appears to be tissue paper armour, unless we stack defense and regen (i.e. blues and greens, because a grand total of zero cleric purps have regen). Your average PvP cleric, if heal specced, might be lucky enough to get an astral shield down before being CCd to death, but that just means it takes marginally longer to be CCd to death. I'd almost be fine with this if I felt we were actually making the opponents work for it, but this is rarely the case. Plus almost everyone who knows how to play will see the blue and immediately smash you out of it. Astral shield: negated.
Two clerics holding a point SHOULD be almost impossible to shift (hah, you should've seen it before they stopped astrals stacking. Oh, those were happy days), but on the other hand, you've now got 40% of your opponents' team (and, presumably, 100% of their heals) tied to one point, so you can just ignore them and go 5v3 the others. Win by holding 2 points to 1. Magic. Plus you can just smash them out of their shields and stunlock them to death if need be.
Ditto for your uber cleric: he may be unkillable, he may make his team unkillable (again, haven't answered the CC question yet -_-), but unless he can somehow stand in three places at once, this is not a game winning state of affairs. Besides, by your logic a match between two teams that each had an uber cleric would either be unwinnable or would be won by both teams at once (possibly causing the universe to implode).
Have you ever played against a team with 2 clerics? Most annoying thing I've fought against when they're on the same point. Takes forever and a day to bring one down. B/c they both have 100% healing...
Yes, and if you have 2 CW's and two TR's or high-specced GF's you end up with a very upset enemy team.
But yeah, it's rough otherwise. Righteousness as a PvP mechanic is one thing, but it is one other case of where PvE and PvP need to have different mechanics.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Have you ever played against a team with 2 clerics? Most annoying thing I've fought against when they're on the same point. Takes forever and a day to bring one down. B/c they both have 100% healing...
So because some people find it hard be somewhat creative in PvP and want fast free killz, one class must be gimped to make it easier for them. But gimped not only in PvP, but PvP and PvE both. Makes sense.
You can't say exclude the high tier gear either, it's in the game and available to anyone that gets enough AD to purchase it. In a couple months there will be tons of clerics with amazing gear.
Yes you can exclude high tier gear, because geared people usually either roll alts (since there's little left to do after you're geared) or leave the game. There is no PvP ladder for them to participate in, and no reason to grind two maps constantly, so there will be always fewer perfectly geared people and a lot of "newbs". And, besides, are you implying that only clerics will get some ridiculously OP gear, while others will run around naked or in lvl 40 greens?
Imo, all stuff that heals from dps rather then the healer, like Astral Seal, Forgmasters Flame, Feated Prophesy of Doom, crit proc feat etz shouldn't be affected by Rightousness.
What wins PvP? Does amount of kills or personal score have any effect on the outcome? It doesn't matter if cleric gets 0 kills 0 assists, if he keeps his team healed while they kill the entire enemy team then they win b/c they can cap all points. Clerics make amazing point defenders as well. Competitive guilds play PvP to win, not to see who can get most kills.
If we hold a tournament and team A gets 200 kills to team B's measly 20 but team B wins 1000-990 Team A is eliminated and Team B moves on.
The cleric can keep his team healed during a fight, that's why he is the first target. If he could heal himself for 100% as well he simply would not go down before his teammates took all enemies down, and as long as he had some assistance could hold a point forever.
I imagine that the people arguing have clerics themselves. Try speccing specifically for PvP survivability and with decent crit chance. I believe righteousness, the bottom feat tier, is the best for survivability. Just switching around your build for PvP would make you 100% better at it.
But it's is fun to play the game and get big numbers rather than appearing to do nothing (and in reality doing nothing) except making circles for the people who ARE playing.
Excuse me, deaths is usually pretty high. So they do get to top SOMETHING on he charts.
The problem with your thought process is that you are assuming only one side has a DC. Your team can have one, too. So even if they're buffed up, you'd benefit too. Right? Cause this is all about the team! What you can do 1v1 doesn't matter. If you can never kill a DC no matter what you try, but you still win the match, then it doesn't matter, right? Right? So let's buff the DC's to the max since it doesn't matter 1v1, only that the teams are balanced. Since both can have a DC, it's totally fine and balanced.
While I agree that nerfing everyone b/c of a class' potential to be great sucks, they do it all the time b/c the 1% that can afford insane gear are just too strong. I'm just saying that it is possible, and that you can't make assertions that DC's suck in PvP when you aren't in a PvP guild that has specifically specced and played PvP DC's.
Your incredibly geared friend DC is going to fold against any equally geared class. Especially CW, they can keep one away from AS half the time, FF dose not help much too. DCs simply do not have the healing/ defence to take on brust damage. Youre point is moot. Righteousness needs to go.
Here we have another OP cleric, this one is just too strong btw you should log on some time fries
Hahaha, I'm in a hotel right now. Yooooou are not online.
Crashing on game load almost every time. Maybe if I try 10 times, it'll work or something. I got a new laptop but it also can't play games, so it can't really handle the intensity of the crowd at the Auction House or Prayer Lady.
PM me and turn alerts on for PM, or something.
On topic: Clerics can still get CCed to death, but it's worthwhile to dial the righteousness thing down a bit and test to see how it goes. The performance of clerics with perfect enhancements should only be compared with other classes with perfect enhancements, but pvp is a team game where 1v1 is not as important as a lot of people seem to think it is.
What wins PvP? Does amount of kills or personal score have any effect on the outcome? It doesn't matter if cleric gets 0 kills 0 assists, if he keeps his team healed while they kill the entire enemy team then they win b/c they can cap all points. Clerics make amazing point defenders as well. Competitive guilds play PvP to win, not to see who can get most kills.
A competent team is what wins in PvP. The reason youre DC performs so well gear aside is because he has a vary good team that knows how to keep people of him and even bite the dust for him. We are looking at well coordinated team with good geared DC who knows what he is doing that backs them up. That dose not mean the DC is OP.
A competent team is what wins in PvP. The reason youre DC performs so well gear aside is because he has a vary good team that knows how to keep people of him and even bite the dust for him. We are looking at well coordinated team with good geared DC who knows what he is doing that backs them up. That dose not mean the DC is OP.
Indeed, in PvP a DC cannot save the life of someone who's in trouble by throwing him a healing spell. The difference between the damage output of the others and the healing ability of the cleric is very huge. Not even the daily spell that's meant to heal (guardian of faith) is capable of healing half as much as other classes' dailies deal damage. And that's just preposterous.
Interesting discussion. Being the only class with a malus makes the DC feel all special. And regarding the "it's because of the uber PVP cleric thing" : balancing an iceberg based on the look of its tip (not that I actually think that's why righteousness is in place) is unlikely to be effective balancing, and the arguments along these lines are not quite valid enough to be called laughable.
I like to pretend my second DC is a different type of CW. With less CC. And possibly fewer debuffs (although I'd need to look into that a bit more). And less chance to evade. But boy does she stack some regen (and eventually deflect) gear. Cause you know - alive is potentially fun. The fun potential of dead is very limited. And the regen easily beats self-healing through pve content - and I get to actually do damage to the mobs on me because I can slot - well - not 3 encounters that either only heal or do both a pitiful heal and a little tickly bit of damage - but 3 actual damage encounters like I have heard rumours that some other classes can! Awesome outcome and it only required perverting the base nature of the DC class itself!
My CWDC is sort of fun, but not what I expected from a DC, and not as good at her job as my actual CW. My first DC was also not what I expected from a DC: due to being close to an auto-kill and generally an unfun to play box of generic date-expired bandaids. But I never got to T2 gear or pwnchants so I obviously didn't get to fulfil the true OP potential that is the divine right of DCs with kajillions of real munay or a knack for exploits.
Interesting discussion. Being the only class with a malus makes the DC feel all special. And regarding the "it's because of the uber PVP cleric thing" : balancing an iceberg based on the look of its tip (not that I actually think that's why righteousness is in place) is unlikely to be effective balancing, and the arguments along these lines are not quite valid enough to be called laughable.
I like to pretend my second DC is a different type of CW. With less CC. And possibly fewer debuffs (although I'd need to look into that a bit more). And less chance to evade. But boy does she stack some regen (and eventually deflect) gear. Cause you know - alive is potentially fun. The fun potential of dead is very limited. And the regen easily beats self-healing through pve content - and I get to actually do damage to the mobs on me because I can slot - well - not 3 encounters that either only heal or do both a pitiful heal and a little tickly bit of damage - but 3 actual damage encounters like I have heard rumours that some other classes can! Awesome outcome and it only required perverting the base nature of the DC class itself!
My CWDC is sort of fun, but not what I expected from a DC, and not as good at her job as my actual CW. My first DC was also not what I expected from a DC: due to being close to an auto-kill and generally an unfun to play box of generic date-expired bandaids. But I never got to T2 gear or pwnchants so I obviously didn't get to fulfil the true OP potential that is the divine right of DCs with kajillions of real munay or a knack for exploits.
Actually my dps spec DC I found does better AoE damage then my CW without the CC. Instead her AoE stuff is often damage/debuff stuff. I didn't stack regen although that would be great to get, however I did take repurpose soul and have alot of crit so I am constantly healing myself as I deal damage. Still trying to get more armour pen (about 1k more) and then looking into getting some regen/deflect. I don't really need it for solo play but in groups I feel it would help me alot.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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yukuaiitaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Interesting discussion. Being the only class with a malus makes the DC feel all special. And regarding the "it's because of the uber PVP cleric thing" : balancing an iceberg based on the look of its tip (not that I actually think that's why righteousness is in place) is unlikely to be effective balancing, and the arguments along these lines are not quite valid enough to be called laughable.
I like to pretend my second DC is a different type of CW. With less CC. And possibly fewer debuffs (although I'd need to look into that a bit more). And less chance to evade. But boy does she stack some regen (and eventually deflect) gear. Cause you know - alive is potentially fun. The fun potential of dead is very limited. And the regen easily beats self-healing through pve content - and I get to actually do damage to the mobs on me because I can slot - well - not 3 encounters that either only heal or do both a pitiful heal and a little tickly bit of damage - but 3 actual damage encounters like I have heard rumours that some other classes can! Awesome outcome and it only required perverting the base nature of the DC class itself!
My CWDC is sort of fun, but not what I expected from a DC, and not as good at her job as my actual CW. My first DC was also not what I expected from a DC: due to being close to an auto-kill and generally an unfun to play box of generic date-expired bandaids. But I never got to T2 gear or pwnchants so I obviously didn't get to fulfil the true OP potential that is the divine right of DCs with kajillions of real munay or a knack for exploits.
Pretty much all classes are really good in right gear for right spec. Saying that DC becomes unkilleble and make their group unkilleble with high end gear is a lie. Saying a Sent GWF with DC are unkilleble is also a lie, it's all about focused dmg. I've seen the tankiest GWF drop in 1 seconds coz they got proned by a GF Then 2 TR's pretty much 2 shotted him. What breaks DC a little is the Soulforged enchantment, Coz it makes you immune to both dmg and CC, and a Cleric can get to full HP in that time. Again the problem isn't with the class itself, it's the stupid overpowered enchants. Same thing as stacking HP on a GWF or GF and get a massive dmg buff from it. Makes no sence at all.
I only post while at work as you can see since I just stopped responding heh.
I'm not saying clerics are OP. I'm not saying they can 1v1 anyone. I think that "regular" geared clerics are pretty weak as well. But what I can't deny is that without Righteousness a very well geared cleric could keep himself and teammates alive long enough to kill off enemy players in every teamfight, and that is certainly not nothing, that is game winning every time. I'm also not talking about pugs with 0 strategy that just run around killing players, obviously I'm talking about premade vs premade pvp. If a cleric already does amazingly well vs. characters of equally high gear imagine how strong he would be with 40% more self healing...
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
But what I can't deny is that without Righteousness a very well geared cleric could keep himself and teammates alive long enough to kill off enemy players in every teamfight, and that is certainly not nothing, that is game winning every time.
Duh dude, duh. Have you SERIOUSLY ever played group PvP ever? like guild vs. guild or faction vs. faction or something like that? In any game?
That's precisely the reason why you WANT a cleric in your party, so that he/she can keep you alive as long as possible. That's also why the opposite team wants a cleric in their group too: to keep them alive as long as possible.
That's also the reason why you must target the cleric FIRST and eliminate him before jumping on everyone else.
That means one of the most threatening members distracts at least 2 members of the other team while the rest focus on the cleric to bring him down. Then it's time to kill off the others. Of course this needs coordination but well... that's another story.
For real, that's like "Group PvP 101" I would say that's pretty much intended.
But the NW cleric cannot do that unless he speciffically gears for that using low grade stat-specific gear instead of the regular purple high-end T2 gear or... by dumping loads of zen into the market to convert that T" purple gear in the most amazing stuff ever with things such as perfects and whatevssss. Even then the survival of the whole group is not guaranteed because his heals are not strong enough to compete with the astoundingly huge numbers the other classes can pound at you without the need of such amazingly specific or expensive equipment.
Now you can't tell me that's intended, right?
But I kinda hate PvP anyway, so imma focus on PvE.
While leveling my DC I was fine... hey, it was the first class I played in NW so I pretty much though it was the same story for every other class since on me DC I got some amazing AoE powers and I (stupidly so) though: okay, we get weak and ridiculous heals but at least we can be HAMSTER with all this AoE crazyness. I struggled in some quests, breezed through others, barely used potions (but I got heals duh, what am i supposed to do with pots anyway?). Fights took a bit longer than I expected but well it was so **** fun .
How wrong I was... because after getting my DC to 60 and dying miserably at those instances being swarmed by unending armies of ADDS I grew quite tired of it and I jumped on a TR and I was like... WTF? It took me less than half the time to complete a quest than with my DC, and almost without pots!! growl! (never bought a pot, even sold stacks them when better ones started dropping from mobs). Even foundries that claimed to last 15 minutes took me no more than 16-17 minutes while on my DC it could very well take me 25 minutes or 30 depending on the ammount of mobs.
Then I was very much aware that DCs are pretty much HAMSTER in terms of damage and healing. Sure, some encounters are omgwtf "divinesearinglight" "dauntinglightftw" "divineglowlawl" but the rest?... worthless.
While on my DC I was barely forced to take "that encounter, this one and that other one" because they are the only ones worth slotting anyway... leveling my CW and TR I found myself struggling because THERE WERE TOO MANY AMAZING ENCOUNTERS and too few slots to slot them. I had trouble deciding which one was better. This, this never happened on my DC.
And that my dear friends, moderators, community managers, developers and fairy godmothers... that's sad.
But I kinda hate PvP anyway, so imma focus on PvE.
As this line says it all I'm just going to focus on this...
As I said it would be fine to remove it in PvE, no problems with that here. Obviously you don't do competitive PvP in this game or you would know that a cleric brings a team down 95% of the time, only an incredibly geared one is worthwhile enough to bring to guild vs guild PvP. That said an incredibly geared one is already extremely powerful and does his job more than efficiently. Giving him an extra 40% healing to self on top of that would make it quite overpowered.
If you have not ever done competitive PvP and just grind your daily please don't act like you know exactly how PvP works. That is not pointed directly at you, but many people who have posted here.
Also as I've said my cleric is 57 so this is coming 2nd hand as a person receiving the heals and watching the cleric tank 3 players while I kill them, so I can't really answer gear/spec related questions.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I only post while at work as you can see since I just stopped responding heh.
I'm not saying clerics are OP. I'm not saying they can 1v1 anyone. I think that "regular" geared clerics are pretty weak as well. But what I can't deny is that without Righteousness a very well geared cleric could keep himself and teammates alive long enough to kill off enemy players in every teamfight, and that is certainly not nothing, that is game winning every time. I'm also not talking about pugs with 0 strategy that just run around killing players, obviously I'm talking about premade vs premade pvp. If a cleric already does amazingly well vs. characters of equally high gear imagine how strong he would be with 40% more self healing...
Dude. Both teams can have a cleric. It would be just as balanced as it is now. Except clerics would have a bit better/easier time playing.
Furthermore, no. You completely overestimate how much the DC helps the team. The heals are pretty weak even at 100%. At 60% they're a joke. A cleric does not do "amazingly well" against anything. You're smoking some good stuff if you seriously think cleric heals at 100% are strong enough to make them or their team auto-win.
Maximum healing output for a DC is less than 25% of their damage output. And they don't even do great damage compared to other classes. Do you understand this? For every 4 hp you damage someone, I can only heal 1 back. On myself, it's even worse because of Righteousness: 10 to 1. For every 10 hp you damage me, I can only heal ONE back. That's not even getting into the major problem of being CC-locked with no counters.
Before I was defeated by the arcane reservoir, people in 5v5pvp and gauntlgrym used to tell me they were reporting my DC for cheating. The main difference between my build and others was I stacked defense up to 3k, built divinity and AP like a hamster on coffee and spammed more circles than in a kindergarten kid's drawings.
As this line says it all I'm just going to focus on this...
As I said it would be fine to remove it in PvE, no problems with that here. Obviously you don't do competitive PvP in this game or you would know that a cleric brings a team down 95% of the time, only an incredibly geared one is worthwhile enough to bring to guild vs guild PvP. That said an incredibly geared one is already extremely powerful and does his job more than efficiently. Giving him an extra 40% healing to self on top of that would make it quite overpowered.
If you have not ever done competitive PvP and just grind your daily please don't act like you know exactly how PvP works. That is not pointed directly at you, but many people who have posted here.
Also as I've said my cleric is 57 so this is coming 2nd hand as a person receiving the heals and watching the cleric tank 3 players while I kill them, so I can't really answer gear/spec related questions.
I do not like PvP, which doesen't precisely means I do not PvP.
When you get your DC to 60 all geared up and you get steamrolled like a cheap foxie come back and try and refute all I've said.
You cannot gear up a DC with a T2 set and permorm as amazingly well as a GWF/GF/CW/TR does. That's not happening. You need specific gear with specific DEFENSIVE stats (not precisely T2) to whistand as much as you describe your friend does. Your offensive stats are barely existant with that setup... but anyway ^^.
Dude. Both teams can have a cleric. It would be just as balanced as it is now. Except clerics would have a bit better/easier time playing.
Furthermore, no. You completely overestimate how much the DC helps the team. The heals are pretty weak even at 100%. At 60% they're a joke. A cleric does not do "amazingly well" against anything. You're smoking some good stuff if you seriously think cleric heals at 100% are strong enough to make them or their team auto-win.
Maximum healing output for a DC is less than 25% of their damage output. And they don't even do great damage compared to other classes. Do you understand this? For every 4 hp you damage someone, I can only heal 1 back. On myself, it's even worse because of Righteousness: 10 to 1. For every 10 hp you damage me, I can only heal ONE back. That's not even getting into the major problem of being CC-locked with no counters.
do you have 13k GS, huge crit chance and P. vorpal? That's 50% greater healing potential, not to mention the crit's give another 15% heal to everyone around the person healed from that feat right? again I'm not adept at cleric skills/feats heh.
I'm going to stop arguing with everyone now, but for the record if both teams of 5 meet at point 2 it generally ends with 1 or no deaths on the clerics team and 5 deaths on the other team, and that's with the 40% reduction. With that you have to keep in mind that it doesn't matter how much the cleric aids in killing, as only point capping and holding matter in PvP.
Edit: Maybe he isn't over 13k anymore since he traded radiants for tranquils, but either way he has every single BiS item and weapon/armor enchant, and rank 9 other enchants so thats a HUGE difference from the average cleric saying "well I can't do it so it's not true"
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
oroness, if you don't mind being a heal bot in pvp, this build using t2 set works well in pvp. The people I convinced to try it all said it has great survivability.
Also I should add what really makes a cleric survive in pvp is astral shield, foresight, and hallowed ground spamming, these powers have fixed bonuses to damage reduction. I have used my build with t1 pvp armor with no runes and still be a difficult to kill thorn in the side of enemies, while keeping teammates around me almost unkillable.
do you have 13k GS, huge crit chance and P. vorpal? That's 50% greater healing potential, not to mention the crit's give another 15% heal to everyone around the person healed from that feat right? again I'm not adept at cleric skills/feats heh.
I do have 13k GS on my cleric with 38% crit chance and please just shut the f*ck up. Equally geared a 13k TR will simply OS you with lashing blade or will obliterate you with lashing + impact. The same goes if Rigtheousness was removed because you wouldn't even have time for healing yourself.
Quit trying to pretend cleric is equal to any other class and would be OP without Righteousness in 60 premade PVP.
Cleric without Righteousness would only be OP in low level PVP, that's why that Righteousness thing maybe should disappear only once you reached 60.
I do have 13k GS on my cleric with 38% crit chance and please just shut the f*ck up. Equally geared a 13k TR will simply OS you with lashing blade or will obliterate you with lashing + impact. The same goes if Reigtheousness was removed because you wouldn't even have time for healing yourself.
Quit trying to pretend cleric is equal to any other class and would be OP without Righteousness in 60 premade PVP.
Cleric without Righteousness would only be OP in low level PVP, that's why that Righteousness thing maybe should disappear only once you reached 60.
K I had to make one last response... Lol you seriously get 1 shot by TR? you would have to be stacking no defense and not using feated foresight and he would have to have P. vorpal and using lurkers. Not to mention, once again, enchants make a huge difference. In the last pvp he said he was actually healed by a lashing blade, as it procced all of his tranquils and he was in astral shield.
Edit: Cleric is not equal to any other class, they are not meant to 1v1. PvP is not won by killing other players 1v1, or even killing at all.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
As I said it would be fine to remove it in PvE, no problems with that here. Obviously you don't do competitive PvP in this game or you would know that a cleric brings a team down 95% of the time, only an incredibly geared one is worthwhile enough to bring to guild vs guild PvP. That said an incredibly geared one is already extremely powerful and does his job more than efficiently. Giving him an extra 40% healing to self on top of that would make it quite overpowered.
If you have not ever done competitive PvP and just grind your daily please don't act like you know exactly how PvP works. That is not pointed directly at you, but many people who have posted here.
Also as I've said my cleric is 57 so this is coming 2nd hand as a person receiving the heals and watching the cleric tank 3 players while I kill them, so I can't really answer gear/spec related questions.
That's kind of the issue. Having done competitive PvP a cleric needs some very specific gear more than any other class. Sure, I can throw all of my blue regen gear on my TR or GWF to make them bloody near unkillable but when I blue gear out my cleric he IS unkillable and ties up the other team even more than my GF - who usually can take on up to four at once unless they're amazing.
But without that gear, a level 60 cleric is just a great target - which can be a winning strategy for capping points since the other team will usually have at least two players going for the cleric. Meaning your team can a) cap points and b) double team their other players. If they're careless with who their cleric hunters are it is even easier. Removing the Righteousness debuff would make clerics more competitive without having to be massively geared in certain directions.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Comments
If we hold a tournament and team A gets 200 kills to team B's measly 20 but team B wins 1000-990 Team A is eliminated and Team B moves on.
The cleric can keep his team healed during a fight, that's why he is the first target. If he could heal himself for 100% as well he simply would not go down before his teammates took all enemies down, and as long as he had some assistance could hold a point forever.
I imagine that the people arguing have clerics themselves. Try speccing specifically for PvP survivability and with decent crit chance. I believe righteousness, the bottom feat tier, is the best for survivability. Just switching around your build for PvP would make you 100% better at it.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Plz to explain why having 100% of the heal effect doesn't make everyone else invincible?
That is the key issue here. I don't care about epic clerics, or epic ANYTHING. At that level all you're doing is exposing the flaws in the core game mechanics. Which are, clearly, many.
BUT. The key point to my argument, and I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH, is that everyone who is not the cleric doing the healing benefits from 100% of the heals. If you are saying that "healing himself for 100% would be broken", then it is absolutely a corrollary that healing ANYONE for 100% should also be broken. Say I throw a divine healing word onto a TR, say he gets 3k health plus a HoT. By your logic, this should make him invincible. He should only be getting 1.8k health plus a commensurately lower HoT. Anything else would be totally broken.
Right? Right?
But since this is demonstrably not the case, in neither PvP or indeed PvE, we can safely conclude that getting 100% of the benefit of our OWN HEALS would not suddenly make all clerics immortal. Or indeed anything even close to that. It might, perchance, make us slightly less easy meat, though.
Seriously, when a HEALER has to stack defense and regeneration for PvP because they can't actually effectively heal themselves (healing being the one, unique, specific-to-them class feature they have), then something is very wrong.
You can't say exclude the high tier gear either, it's in the game and available to anyone that gets enough AD to purchase it. In a couple months there will be tons of clerics with amazing gear.
Obviously everyone is not invincible but they are so much harder to kill that the cleric MUST be targetted, and if the cleric also had 100% healing effects he could easily live long enough for his team to kill the enemies.
Have you ever played against a team with 2 clerics? Most annoying thing I've fought against when they're on the same point. Takes forever and a day to bring one down. B/c they both have 100% healing...
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
At the moment anywhere outside of premade PvP, it's "gank the cleric because it's laughably, laughably easy (and besides, the rest of his team have run off in random directions to PWN FACE)". Clerics have no CC resist and what appears to be tissue paper armour, unless we stack defense and regen (i.e. blues and greens, because a grand total of zero cleric purps have regen). Your average PvP cleric, if heal specced, might be lucky enough to get an astral shield down before being CCd to death, but that just means it takes marginally longer to be CCd to death. I'd almost be fine with this if I felt we were actually making the opponents work for it, but this is rarely the case. Plus almost everyone who knows how to play will see the blue and immediately smash you out of it. Astral shield: negated.
Two clerics holding a point SHOULD be almost impossible to shift (hah, you should've seen it before they stopped astrals stacking. Oh, those were happy days), but on the other hand, you've now got 40% of your opponents' team (and, presumably, 100% of their heals) tied to one point, so you can just ignore them and go 5v3 the others. Win by holding 2 points to 1. Magic. Plus you can just smash them out of their shields and stunlock them to death if need be.
Ditto for your uber cleric: he may be unkillable, he may make his team unkillable (again, haven't answered the CC question yet -_-), but unless he can somehow stand in three places at once, this is not a game winning state of affairs. Besides, by your logic a match between two teams that each had an uber cleric would either be unwinnable or would be won by both teams at once (possibly causing the universe to implode).
Yes, and if you have 2 CW's and two TR's or high-specced GF's you end up with a very upset enemy team.
But yeah, it's rough otherwise. Righteousness as a PvP mechanic is one thing, but it is one other case of where PvE and PvP need to have different mechanics.
So because some people find it hard be somewhat creative in PvP and want fast free killz, one class must be gimped to make it easier for them. But gimped not only in PvP, but PvP and PvE both. Makes sense.
Yes you can exclude high tier gear, because geared people usually either roll alts (since there's little left to do after you're geared) or leave the game. There is no PvP ladder for them to participate in, and no reason to grind two maps constantly, so there will be always fewer perfectly geared people and a lot of "newbs". And, besides, are you implying that only clerics will get some ridiculously OP gear, while others will run around naked or in lvl 40 greens?
Here we have another OP cleric, this one is just too strong
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
But it's is fun to play the game and get big numbers rather than appearing to do nothing (and in reality doing nothing) except making circles for the people who ARE playing.
Excuse me, deaths is usually pretty high. So they do get to top SOMETHING on he charts.
The problem with your thought process is that you are assuming only one side has a DC. Your team can have one, too. So even if they're buffed up, you'd benefit too. Right? Cause this is all about the team! What you can do 1v1 doesn't matter. If you can never kill a DC no matter what you try, but you still win the match, then it doesn't matter, right? Right? So let's buff the DC's to the max since it doesn't matter 1v1, only that the teams are balanced. Since both can have a DC, it's totally fine and balanced.
Your incredibly geared friend DC is going to fold against any equally geared class. Especially CW, they can keep one away from AS half the time, FF dose not help much too. DCs simply do not have the healing/ defence to take on brust damage. Youre point is moot. Righteousness needs to go.
Crashing on game load almost every time. Maybe if I try 10 times, it'll work or something. I got a new laptop but it also can't play games, so it can't really handle the intensity of the crowd at the Auction House or Prayer Lady.
PM me and turn alerts on for PM, or something.
On topic: Clerics can still get CCed to death, but it's worthwhile to dial the righteousness thing down a bit and test to see how it goes. The performance of clerics with perfect enhancements should only be compared with other classes with perfect enhancements, but pvp is a team game where 1v1 is not as important as a lot of people seem to think it is.
A competent team is what wins in PvP. The reason youre DC performs so well gear aside is because he has a vary good team that knows how to keep people of him and even bite the dust for him. We are looking at well coordinated team with good geared DC who knows what he is doing that backs them up. That dose not mean the DC is OP.
Indeed, in PvP a DC cannot save the life of someone who's in trouble by throwing him a healing spell. The difference between the damage output of the others and the healing ability of the cleric is very huge. Not even the daily spell that's meant to heal (guardian of faith) is capable of healing half as much as other classes' dailies deal damage. And that's just preposterous.
I want this class in NW.
I like to pretend my second DC is a different type of CW. With less CC. And possibly fewer debuffs (although I'd need to look into that a bit more). And less chance to evade. But boy does she stack some regen (and eventually deflect) gear. Cause you know - alive is potentially fun. The fun potential of dead is very limited. And the regen easily beats self-healing through pve content - and I get to actually do damage to the mobs on me because I can slot - well - not 3 encounters that either only heal or do both a pitiful heal and a little tickly bit of damage - but 3 actual damage encounters like I have heard rumours that some other classes can! Awesome outcome and it only required perverting the base nature of the DC class itself!
My CWDC is sort of fun, but not what I expected from a DC, and not as good at her job as my actual CW. My first DC was also not what I expected from a DC: due to being close to an auto-kill and generally an unfun to play box of generic date-expired bandaids. But I never got to T2 gear or pwnchants so I obviously didn't get to fulfil the true OP potential that is the divine right of DCs with kajillions of real munay or a knack for exploits.
Actually my dps spec DC I found does better AoE damage then my CW without the CC. Instead her AoE stuff is often damage/debuff stuff. I didn't stack regen although that would be great to get, however I did take repurpose soul and have alot of crit so I am constantly healing myself as I deal damage. Still trying to get more armour pen (about 1k more) and then looking into getting some regen/deflect. I don't really need it for solo play but in groups I feel it would help me alot.
this
nice answer
I'm not saying clerics are OP. I'm not saying they can 1v1 anyone. I think that "regular" geared clerics are pretty weak as well. But what I can't deny is that without Righteousness a very well geared cleric could keep himself and teammates alive long enough to kill off enemy players in every teamfight, and that is certainly not nothing, that is game winning every time. I'm also not talking about pugs with 0 strategy that just run around killing players, obviously I'm talking about premade vs premade pvp. If a cleric already does amazingly well vs. characters of equally high gear imagine how strong he would be with 40% more self healing...
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Duh dude, duh. Have you SERIOUSLY ever played group PvP ever? like guild vs. guild or faction vs. faction or something like that? In any game?
That's precisely the reason why you WANT a cleric in your party, so that he/she can keep you alive as long as possible. That's also why the opposite team wants a cleric in their group too: to keep them alive as long as possible.
That's also the reason why you must target the cleric FIRST and eliminate him before jumping on everyone else.
That means one of the most threatening members distracts at least 2 members of the other team while the rest focus on the cleric to bring him down. Then it's time to kill off the others. Of course this needs coordination but well... that's another story.
For real, that's like "Group PvP 101" I would say that's pretty much intended.
But the NW cleric cannot do that unless he speciffically gears for that using low grade stat-specific gear instead of the regular purple high-end T2 gear or... by dumping loads of zen into the market to convert that T" purple gear in the most amazing stuff ever with things such as perfects and whatevssss. Even then the survival of the whole group is not guaranteed because his heals are not strong enough to compete with the astoundingly huge numbers the other classes can pound at you without the need of such amazingly specific or expensive equipment.
Now you can't tell me that's intended, right?
But I kinda hate PvP anyway, so imma focus on PvE.
While leveling my DC I was fine... hey, it was the first class I played in NW so I pretty much though it was the same story for every other class since on me DC I got some amazing AoE powers and I (stupidly so) though: okay, we get weak and ridiculous heals but at least we can be HAMSTER with all this AoE crazyness. I struggled in some quests, breezed through others, barely used potions (but I got heals duh, what am i supposed to do with pots anyway?). Fights took a bit longer than I expected but well it was so **** fun
How wrong I was... because after getting my DC to 60 and dying miserably at those instances being swarmed by unending armies of ADDS I grew quite tired of it and I jumped on a TR and I was like... WTF? It took me less than half the time to complete a quest than with my DC, and almost without pots!! growl! (never bought a pot, even sold stacks them when better ones started dropping from mobs). Even foundries that claimed to last 15 minutes took me no more than 16-17 minutes while on my DC it could very well take me 25 minutes or 30 depending on the ammount of mobs.
Then I was very much aware that DCs are pretty much HAMSTER in terms of damage and healing. Sure, some encounters are omgwtf "divinesearinglight" "dauntinglightftw" "divineglowlawl" but the rest?... worthless.
While on my DC I was barely forced to take "that encounter, this one and that other one" because they are the only ones worth slotting anyway... leveling my CW and TR I found myself struggling because THERE WERE TOO MANY AMAZING ENCOUNTERS and too few slots to slot them. I had trouble deciding which one was better. This, this never happened on my DC.
And that my dear friends, moderators, community managers, developers and fairy godmothers... that's sad.
I want this class in NW.
As this line says it all I'm just going to focus on this...
As I said it would be fine to remove it in PvE, no problems with that here. Obviously you don't do competitive PvP in this game or you would know that a cleric brings a team down 95% of the time, only an incredibly geared one is worthwhile enough to bring to guild vs guild PvP. That said an incredibly geared one is already extremely powerful and does his job more than efficiently. Giving him an extra 40% healing to self on top of that would make it quite overpowered.
If you have not ever done competitive PvP and just grind your daily please don't act like you know exactly how PvP works. That is not pointed directly at you, but many people who have posted here.
Also as I've said my cleric is 57 so this is coming 2nd hand as a person receiving the heals and watching the cleric tank 3 players while I kill them, so I can't really answer gear/spec related questions.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Dude. Both teams can have a cleric. It would be just as balanced as it is now. Except clerics would have a bit better/easier time playing.
Furthermore, no. You completely overestimate how much the DC helps the team. The heals are pretty weak even at 100%. At 60% they're a joke. A cleric does not do "amazingly well" against anything. You're smoking some good stuff if you seriously think cleric heals at 100% are strong enough to make them or their team auto-win.
Maximum healing output for a DC is less than 25% of their damage output. And they don't even do great damage compared to other classes. Do you understand this? For every 4 hp you damage someone, I can only heal 1 back. On myself, it's even worse because of Righteousness: 10 to 1. For every 10 hp you damage me, I can only heal ONE back. That's not even getting into the major problem of being CC-locked with no counters.
I do not like PvP, which doesen't precisely means I do not PvP.
When you get your DC to 60 all geared up and you get steamrolled like a cheap foxie come back and try and refute all I've said.
You cannot gear up a DC with a T2 set and permorm as amazingly well as a GWF/GF/CW/TR does. That's not happening. You need specific gear with specific DEFENSIVE stats (not precisely T2) to whistand as much as you describe your friend does. Your offensive stats are barely existant with that setup... but anyway ^^.
I want this class in NW.
do you have 13k GS, huge crit chance and P. vorpal? That's 50% greater healing potential, not to mention the crit's give another 15% heal to everyone around the person healed from that feat right? again I'm not adept at cleric skills/feats heh.
I'm going to stop arguing with everyone now, but for the record if both teams of 5 meet at point 2 it generally ends with 1 or no deaths on the clerics team and 5 deaths on the other team, and that's with the 40% reduction. With that you have to keep in mind that it doesn't matter how much the cleric aids in killing, as only point capping and holding matter in PvP.
Edit: Maybe he isn't over 13k anymore since he traded radiants for tranquils, but either way he has every single BiS item and weapon/armor enchant, and rank 9 other enchants so thats a HUGE difference from the average cleric saying "well I can't do it so it's not true"
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?434791-Pincushion-Cleric-PVP-PVE-Build
Also I should add what really makes a cleric survive in pvp is astral shield, foresight, and hallowed ground spamming, these powers have fixed bonuses to damage reduction. I have used my build with t1 pvp armor with no runes and still be a difficult to kill thorn in the side of enemies, while keeping teammates around me almost unkillable.
I do have 13k GS on my cleric with 38% crit chance and please just shut the f*ck up. Equally geared a 13k TR will simply OS you with lashing blade or will obliterate you with lashing + impact. The same goes if Rigtheousness was removed because you wouldn't even have time for healing yourself.
Quit trying to pretend cleric is equal to any other class and would be OP without Righteousness in 60 premade PVP.
Cleric without Righteousness would only be OP in low level PVP, that's why that Righteousness thing maybe should disappear only once you reached 60.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
K I had to make one last response... Lol you seriously get 1 shot by TR? you would have to be stacking no defense and not using feated foresight and he would have to have P. vorpal and using lurkers. Not to mention, once again, enchants make a huge difference. In the last pvp he said he was actually healed by a lashing blade, as it procced all of his tranquils and he was in astral shield.
Edit: Cleric is not equal to any other class, they are not meant to 1v1. PvP is not won by killing other players 1v1, or even killing at all.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
That's kind of the issue. Having done competitive PvP a cleric needs some very specific gear more than any other class. Sure, I can throw all of my blue regen gear on my TR or GWF to make them bloody near unkillable but when I blue gear out my cleric he IS unkillable and ties up the other team even more than my GF - who usually can take on up to four at once unless they're amazing.
But without that gear, a level 60 cleric is just a great target - which can be a winning strategy for capping points since the other team will usually have at least two players going for the cleric. Meaning your team can a) cap points and b) double team their other players. If they're careless with who their cleric hunters are it is even easier. Removing the Righteousness debuff would make clerics more competitive without having to be massively geared in certain directions.