I'm going to say this once. Knock off the flaming each other in this thread. If it keeps up on the path it's going, I will lock it.
I'm keeping this open at this time due to the importance of the issue. Personally speaking, I'm not easy with the fact of the "exclusivity" deal and still selling the pack, but I've saw this rodeo in RaiderZ too.
Now, as to chargebacks: Do not advocate this as an alternative to the refund process or because you simply refuse to deal with CS. Most, if not all, credit card companies have it written into their policies that you must prove you attempted to deal with the merchant in good faith and request a refund before requesting a chargeback. Spurious (please note use of the word here) chargebacks or misleading chargebacks CAN be considered fraudulent and subject you to penalties. Chargebacks are a VERY serious procedure and should be taken and used as such.
Now, understand that the above is not intended to "scare" anyone into not requesting one. Do so as you wish, but understand the consequence and weight of doing so. Also, be aware that the merchant has the right to dispute the chargeback.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Now, as to chargebacks: Do not advocate this as an alternative to the refund process or because you simply refuse to deal with CS. Most, if not all, credit card companies have it written into their policies that you must prove you attempted to deal with the merchant in good faith and request a refund before requesting a chargeback. Spurious (please note use of the word here) chargebacks or misleading chargebacks CAN be considered fraudulent and subject you to penalties. Chargebacks are a VERY serious procedure and should be taken and used as such.
Now, understand that the above is not intended to "scare" anyone into not requesting one. Do so as you wish, but understand the consequence and weight of doing so. Also, be aware that the merchant has the right to dispute the chargeback.
All the company has to do is answer all emails in the order they are received, and be honest about the length of time it will take. The customers aren't avoiding CS, its the other way around.
You have tons of people who want to deal with CS. The issue is the company shuts their emails down after 7 days of not answering them, with an automated message stating if they still have an issue they need to write another email. This new email also gets shut down after 7 days with the same automated message.
This is what brings on most of the chargebacks - the lack of ability or willingness to resolve the issue the user is having in a timely fashion, and penalizing the user for nothing more than waiting patiently by sending them to the back of the line, which turns into an endless loop of emails being closed out after being in a queue for longer than 7 days. When a customer is able to show this pattern based behavior to anyone investigating a chargeback, they will win, hands down, as it is not the users fault the company chooses to close down tickets due to its own inability to support users quickly.
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rathelasMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 46Arc User
Its a tad discouraging. Its not because I don't want everyone running around with a Spider. Its because like with every MMO in history. (To my knowledge) even PS3, Xbox360 games. They all promise you special things for the pre order. The Hero of the North was supposed be for a limited time.
If not, then why keep saying the date then moving it, to finally just taking out the founders title. But selling every item. Its not like prices in game are not enough. It pays money to respect, money for extra space. I feel this is a great game. It could do really well if they weren't so excessive to get more profits.
In my humble point of view, if you keep squeezing money out of the customers. Then it finally dawns on them how much money they actually poured into this game, and play something else. At the very least. They could start a different pack that didn't contain nearly everything Hero of North did.
I just wonder why they said "limited time" when it wasn't. Misleading your customer base right at launch doesn't express great confidence for the future. They are welcome to make a new pack. Its not as if they aren't making generous sum of money from Zen purchases.
Well said. This is very much how I feel about the issue.
Also, Customer Service, both in response to in-game tickets and emailed concerns, is abysmal. PWE has some of the worst CS I have ever dealt with which is really a shame because the community of the game is fantastic.
I expect they will still be sold even after release. It makes little sense to remove a possible source of income at the same time when most folks would be able to decide if they want to play the game or not. Even with an open beta only a faction of launch day players ever participate.
Honestly, if Cryptic views the founders pack like they see their lifetime offers. I don't see them ever removing the option for anyone to buy one.
PWE doesn't care how many people have a spider mount. If 1,000,000 players up and decide they want a spider mount then PWE will hand each and every one of them a code along with an autographed copy of Robert Hong Xiao kissing a baby. I'll tell you what will happen. The same thing that has happened in every other Cryptic/PWE product release.
- The "founders pack" will be rebranded into something else.
- The title granted will be changed to something else shortly after release.
- Superfluous "bonuses" will be replaced with other items which will drive "founders" absolutely stark raving mad and several threads will erupt on the forums by raging "founders" because people who purchased the now rebranded "founders pack" have something they don't and "founders" will demand reparations.
I'm going to say this once. Knock off the flaming each other in this thread. If it keeps up on the path it's going, I will lock it.
I'm keeping this open at this time due to the importance of the issue. Personally speaking, I'm not easy with the fact of the "exclusivity" deal and still selling the pack, but I've saw this rodeo in RaiderZ too.
Now, as to chargebacks: Do not advocate this as an alternative to the refund process or because you simply refuse to deal with CS. Most, if not all, credit card companies have it written into their policies that you must prove you attempted to deal with the merchant in good faith and request a refund before requesting a chargeback. Spurious (please note use of the word here) chargebacks or misleading chargebacks CAN be considered fraudulent and subject you to penalties. Chargebacks are a VERY serious procedure and should be taken and used as such.
Now, understand that the above is not intended to "scare" anyone into not requesting one. Do so as you wish, but understand the consequence and weight of doing so. Also, be aware that the merchant has the right to dispute the chargeback.
I agree with you on the issue being the misleading "exclusivity" of the packs given the fact they continue to sell the packages under a different name. The only way to make this right is to immediately discontinue the practice or give something(g) of SIGNIFICANT value to those of us who bought founders packs.
Count me in as one of the disappointed purchasers of the founders pack. I will continue to play and enjoy Neverwinter but the handling of the so called "founders exclusive" stuff leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
Its not like anyone from the community tried to inform folks...
Or this one
Woah. That's insane. Unfortunately, not everyone read the forums or did at this time or saw these specific posts. I know I hurried to buy the pack at the end of May because I was told it was gonna go away forever.
Woah. That's insane. Unfortunately, not everyone read the forums or did at this time or saw these specific posts. I know I hurried to buy the pack at the end of May because I was told it was gonna go away forever.
Exactly. Those were 2 posts taken from god knows where and when, across an entire, very much alive, thread-filled forum - hardly a stickied warning or ReadMeForNewPlayers... And while I applaud the two for trying to warn people, even if someone happened to read one of those two whole posts by to them complete strangers, considering the negativity and doom crying on forums, they could easily have dismissed them as just random bashing or anything. So to in any way suggest that people "had it coming, they were warned" doesn't really work.
This is the value of this thread, and others like it; this is hard to miss, and thanks to the continued support from people of like minds, now alot of people have seen this company under new light, a harsh light, and have more information to base their own opinions on. An important thread, as even the Moderator weighed in on, so I hope we can keep it clean from now on; would be a shame if it got locked and moved to places new players can't see it.
We have done what we can now. I am still playing and enjoying Neverwinter, but I will never trust PWE again, and I will have to see a greatly improved product in Neverwinter to spend another dime on this game.
Drow race for all, Ranger class, Epic Skrimishes for level 60 endgame would be a start. I expected to see these items before the end of the summer, but I think now we are hoping for before 2014.
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furorMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 14Arc User
I'm going to say this once. Knock off the flaming each other in this thread. If it keeps up on the path it's going, I will lock it.
I'm keeping this open at this time due to the importance of the issue. Personally speaking, I'm not easy with the fact of the "exclusivity" deal and still selling the pack, but I've saw this rodeo in RaiderZ too.
Now, as to chargebacks: Do not advocate this as an alternative to the refund process or because you simply refuse to deal with CS. Most, if not all, credit card companies have it written into their policies that you must prove you attempted to deal with the merchant in good faith and request a refund before requesting a chargeback. Spurious (please note use of the word here) chargebacks or misleading chargebacks CAN be considered fraudulent and subject you to penalties. Chargebacks are a VERY serious procedure and should be taken and used as such.
Now, understand that the above is not intended to "scare" anyone into not requesting one. Do so as you wish, but understand the consequence and weight of doing so. Also, be aware that the merchant has the right to dispute the chargeback.
well you see the customer email support for in game issues and account issues takes mroe then 20 days, you see the problem?
You have to solve the customer problems within a reasonable set of time. 20+ days to answer a ticket is not a reasonable set of time. You dont know what your talking about, i have 2 friends who works for chase bank.
Again i stress 20+ days to answer a ticket regarding in game and account issue is not a reasonable set of time. Especially when your customers paid money for foudners pack they never received in game bonsus, and is forced to wait 20+ days to resolve account issues regarding founders pack.
Customers needs to give merchant a reasonable set of time to resolve their account issues, and again 20+ days to resolve account issues is not a reasonable set of time between customers and merchants. Im not the only one experiencing 20+ days trying to get my ticket resolved.
well you see the customer email support for in game issues and account issues takes mroe then 20 days, you see the problem?
You have to solve the customer problems within a reasonable set of time. 20+ days to answer a ticket is not a reasonable set of time. You dont know what your talking about, i have 2 friends who works for chase bank.
Again i stress 20+ days to answer a ticket regarding in game and account issue is not a reasonable set of time. Especially when your customers paid money for foudners pack they never received in game bonsus, and is forced to wait 20+ days to resolve account issues regarding founders pack.
Customers needs to give merchant a reasonable set of time to resolve their account issues, and again 20+ days to resolve account issues is not a reasonable set of time between customers and merchants. Im not the only one experiencing 20+ days trying to get my ticket resolved.
With all due respect, it still does not justify blindly advocating chargebacks. Again, such a procedure is drastic and should be handled as such and neither taken lightly nor frivolously. It's NOT meant to be a substitute for requesting a refund solely on the grounds that the player does not wish to deal with CS.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
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skarsysMember, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
With all due respect, it still does not justify blindly advocating chargebacks. Again, such a procedure is drastic and should be handled as such and neither taken lightly nor frivolously. It's NOT meant to be a substitute for requesting a refund solely on the grounds that the player does not wish to deal with CS.
Maybe you should actually read that post you quoted. 20 days is ridiculous, hell anything beyond 72 hours is ridiculous. CS are intentionally ignoring tickets for chargeback requests. Hell coincidentally when I informed then I will be pursuing my bank for chargeback they responded within a day. Not to mention they are using loopholes to deny requests even though the **** game was in "open-beta" which should have been a preorder status and refunds should not have been an issue.
Back to the OP, well this was expected and STO veterans have long said that this is what will happen as the exact same thing happened in STO.
Shady practice, never again will I ever purchase a Craptic product, and kick me in the nuts for being a D&D fan and being impulsive for Neverwinter.
Maybe you should actually read that post you quoted. 20 days is ridiculous, hell anything beyond 72 hours is ridiculous. CS are intentionally ignoring tickets for chargeback requests. Hell coincidentally when I informed then I will be pursuing my bank for chargeback they responded within a day. Not to mention they are using loopholes to deny requests even though the **** game was in "open-beta" which should have been a preorder status and refunds should not have been an issue.
Back to the OP, well this was expected and STO veterans have long said that this is what will happen as the exact same thing happened in STO.
Shady practice, never again will I ever purchase a Craptic product, and kick me in the nuts for being a D&D fan and being impulsive for Neverwinter.
Let me say this again: I'm not disagreeing with anyone's right to pursue a chargeback. That's your choice, but so are the consequences of that choice.
I'm saying to understand that it's a serious thing and not to be used frivolously. It's meant to be a measure of last resort. It's not meant to be "hey, I read that responses are taking 20 days, screw CS, I'm gonna file a chargeback because I don't want to wait!!"
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
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dlcarterMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
If they no longer offered them people would be upset. They change the name and still offer them and folks are upset. The haters will hate no matter what. I did buy both the guardian and hero and 100% happy with it. My cost $260 all the hate people bring for no reason priceless. I figure if I play just 26 hours I got my money's worth. I have played well over that 26 hours. My last job was driving a cab if they wanted to rent my cab for an hour it was $50. My daily lease was $75 and I always made a profit
I am not lost, I am exploring. All who wander are not lost.
Not all who seem to be lost want to be found.
If they no longer offered them people would be upset. They change the name and still offer them and folks are upset. The haters will hate no matter what.
"If they no longer offered them people would be upset."
Ehm, I sincerely doubt that, as people rarely get upset when deals are handled as promised (and founder/vip/limited edition is common in gaming, even expected), people do however get upset when deals are broken and they are tricked, duped or scammed.
"Haters gonna hate, son" is something Bieber fans use. It does not apply here. It has no place here. This is a simple matter of a promised foundation for a deal being revoked; the buyers' tricked after having purchased something under false advertising.
Your job as a cab driver or how you value money really has no relevance to this issue. But I'm glad you're content with your purchase from PWE, and that you appearently have held a job.
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dlcarterMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
The Devil is in the details. Take them to court and you will loose. The new packs while a bit shady do not have the Founder title so there is your exclusive. As for music I much prefer Jimi Hendrix. It is all a matter of perspective. As I near the big 50 $300 is not a lot in my view. And yes the hater's will hate go visit the DDO forums or other MMO's and you will find plenty of it there also.
I am not lost, I am exploring. All who wander are not lost.
Not all who seem to be lost want to be found.
The Devil is in the details. Take them to court and you will loose. The new packs while a bit shady do not have the Founder title so there is your exclusive. As for music I much prefer Jimi Hendrix. It is all a matter of perspective. As I near the big 50 $300 is not a lot in my view. And yes the hater's will hate go visit the DDO forums or other MMO's and you will find plenty of it there also.
I don't think this would be a losing bet in court. Simply changing the name does not change the contents. If they had promised only an exclusive title you might have a point. A good argument can be made that all contents of the founders pack should be exclusive. This was what was promised.
And yes that might be taking it to extremes, and the players are not looking to do this. But ont he other hand this is exactly the stance PWE has taken only on the opposite end of the spectrum. I think they would have a good chance at losing in court, and really the courts need to step up for consumer rights in the digital entertainment world. If this had happened in the traditional market they would have been slapped down already.
With all due respect, it still does not justify blindly advocating chargebacks. Again, such a procedure is drastic and should be handled as such and neither taken lightly nor frivolously. It's NOT meant to be a substitute for requesting a refund solely on the grounds that the player does not wish to deal with CS.
You purchase a product, you don't get said product. You contact customer service. They ignore you. You charge back. You get your money back. There's nothing drastic nor frivolous about this. It's how people handle being screwed by greedy and terrible companies these days.
Let me say this again: I'm not disagreeing with anyone's right to pursue a chargeback. That's your choice, but so are the consequences of that choice.
I'm saying to understand that it's a serious thing and not to be used frivolously. It's meant to be a measure of last resort. It's not meant to be "hey, I read that responses are taking 20 days, screw CS, I'm gonna file a chargeback because I don't want to wait!!"
There are no consequences to charging back other than you get your money back after buying a product but never receiving it. You trying to cover for PWE and Cryptic is laughable in this situation. 20 days? LOL 20 hours is too long. People have been getting screwed by PWE and Cryptic, being completely ignored when they try to get what they paid for, but can't because of there's no customer service in this game at all.
You purchase a product, you don't get said product. You contact customer service. They ignore you. You charge back. You get your money back. There's nothing drastic nor frivolous about this. It's how people handle being screwed by greedy and terrible companies these days.
There are no consequences to charging back other than you get your money back after buying a product but never receiving it. You trying to cover for PWE and Cryptic is laughable in this situation. 20 days? LOL 20 hours is too long. People have been getting screwed by PWE and Cryptic, being completely ignored when they try to get what they paid for, but can't because of there's no customer service in this game at all.
Um...saying that 20 hours is too long to wait is a wee bit unrealistic. The pre-authorization for your transaction alone takes 24-72 hours to release. Also, with the metric crapton of tickets that CS has, doubful that your ticket will even make it to the head of the queue in that short amount of time. Just my opinion, YMMV.
Also, I haven't covered for anything:
I have simply stated that chargebacks are not intended to be used as a method to circumvent the refund process simply because the customer is unwilling to deal with CS.
If they've tried, and still wish to pursue a chargeback, great. As has been said twice: That's your choice but so, too, are the consequences of that choice, of which one of those is an account ban.
If they haven't, then they shouldn't be seeking a chargeback unless they have attempted to resolve the matter in good faith with the merchant. Anecdotal evidence ("I've seen people post that it's more than 20 days for a refund, so I'm not even going to bother, I'm just gonna file a chargeback!!") doesn't meet that criteria. You have to, on a case-by-case basis, first make the effort.
I'm just telling people to understand it for what it is: a method of absolute last resort, that should only be used as such if all else has failed and you believe you should get your money back, and not as way to get around legitimately asking for a refund from the merchant.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
No offense but you should have left that out. When dealing with real money I don't know anyone that considers 20 days an acceptable amount of time to wait for a Customer Service response. Doesn't matter if you're buying something for $10 or $1000. People expect a timely response. And 20 days is not timely to anyone. To write that like you actually believe it... Is going to make a lot of people ignore the rest of your post. The part that does make sense.
I'll agree that 20 days is a bit much. By way of example, I had an issue with a company that charged my card for something I did not purchase, but gave me my refund--after telling me it would take 7-10 business days to process. Wound up taking two weeks.
That was intended more to make the point that 20 hours is a bit subjective and, IMO, unrealistic. Post edited to reflect that.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
If you have already purchased the Founder's Packs and you are logged in to the website the Neverwinter Packs will be greyed out for you, because the items in the Packs are exactly the same.
PWE will not let an account purchase the exact same items twice. You cannot buy two Spider Mounts on the same account.
Using this method, PWE proves that the Neverwinter Packs and Founder's Packs contain the same items.
Hence, PWE lied about the Founders Packs containing exclusive, limited edition items, because you can still buy the exact same items from the Founders Packs in the Neverwinter Packs.
The only thing missing is the title, 'Founder'. PWE never stated or implied that the only exclusive item in these packs was the title, 'Founder'. Deceptive marketing.
This makes a pretty strong argument on its own.
It's really weak that this issue is going to be ignored. We all understand money needs to be made but this kind of stuff burns through goodwill. Keeping my wallet shut PWE if you are going to be deceptive and let down your most loyal customers "founders".
PWE may charge fees to access and acquire certain game items or participate in game activities on the Website and may allow the purchase of in game "points" that may be applied to the purchase of in game items or activities ("Zen") ANY APPLICABLE ZEN, FEES AND OTHER CHARGES ARE PAYABLE IN ADVANCE AND ARE NON REFUNDABLE AND NONTRANSFERABLE, IN WHOLE OR IN PART, FOR ANY REASON. ZEN HAVE NO MONETARY VALUE AND CANNOT BE REDEEMED FOR CASH. PWE may, from time to time, modify, amend, or supplement its fees, billing methods and termsapplicable to Zen or to any purchases on the Website, and post those changes in these Terms, in separate Terms of Sale or in other terms or agreements posted on the Website or otherwise provided to you by PWE. Such modifications, amendments, supplements or Terms of Sale shall be effective immediately upon posting on the Website and shall be incorporated by reference into these Terms. If any change is unacceptable to you, you may cancel your account at any time.
Highlighted in red/blue the important parts.
PWE can offer Founder Packs/website items then at any time change them/relabel them (which in the ToS language is the ... change the terms applicable to Zen or to any purchases on the Website. The "terms" applicable to any website purchase doesn't mean the price, doesn't mean how to purchase item as both of those terms are explicitly stated. Terms of the website purchase ... the terms of getting those items means buying the Founder's Packs. Change the terms to mean ... to get those items you need to buy the Neverwinter Pack. If you do not like it then do what the ToS says and cancel your account.
If you don't like it cancel your account.
By the way, PWE can you implement more of these Packs?
Consider including one to have the ioun stone and heavy winter wolf for $59 and make it 800k ad instead.
PWE may charge fees to access and acquire certain game items or participate in game activities on the Website and may allow the purchase of in game "points" that may be applied to the purchase of in game items or activities ("Zen") ANY APPLICABLE ZEN, FEES AND OTHER CHARGES ARE PAYABLE IN ADVANCE AND ARE NON REFUNDABLE AND NONTRANSFERABLE, IN WHOLE OR IN PART, FOR ANY REASON. ZEN HAVE NO MONETARY VALUE AND CANNOT BE REDEEMED FOR CASH. PWE may, from time to time, modify, amend, or supplement its fees, billing methods and termsapplicable to Zen or to any purchases on the Website, and post those changes in these Terms, in separate Terms of Sale or in other terms or agreements posted on the Website or otherwise provided to you by PWE. Such modifications, amendments, supplements or Terms of Sale shall be effective immediately upon posting on the Website and shall be incorporated by reference into these Terms. If any change is unacceptable to you, you may cancel your account at any time.
Highlighted in red/blue the important parts.
PWE can offer Founder Packs/website items then at any time change them/relabel them (which in the ToS language is the ... change the terms applicable to Zen or to any purchases on the Website. The "terms" applicable to any website purchase doesn't mean the price, doesn't mean how to purchase item as both of those terms are explicitly stated. Terms of the website purchase ... the terms of getting those items means buying the Founder's Packs. Change the terms to mean ... to get those items you need to buy the Neverwinter Pack. If you do not like it then do what the ToS says and cancel your account.
If you don't like it cancel your account.
By the way, PWE can you implement more of these Packs?
Consider including one to have the ioun stone and heavy winter wolf for $59 and make it 800k ad instead.
Thankfully ToS mean next to nothing legally(at least in my country). They certainly don't supersede laws around false advertising and consumer protection. A lot of basically irrelevant hot air.
Edit: Also what you posted is just a standard we can change anything we want effective immediately clause. Doesn't state they can market something as exclusive and time limited then go back on the deal. Even if it did it wouldn't hold any water otherwise all ToS would read "We can do anything we want you have no rights the end."
In the end to me this is not about legality anyway it's about respecting the people who in good faith spent money on your product.
The Fair Credit Billing Act, the federal law that dictates how credit card fraud and billing disputes are handled, defines a number of situations as billing errors, including "goods or services not accepted by the obligor or his designee or not delivered to the obligor or his designee in accordance with the agreement made at the time of a transaction." In other words, if you order a product and it never arrives – or if you refuse delivery because it's not the product you expected or because it's damaged – you're entitled to your money back.
Comments
I'm keeping this open at this time due to the importance of the issue. Personally speaking, I'm not easy with the fact of the "exclusivity" deal and still selling the pack, but I've saw this rodeo in RaiderZ too.
Now, as to chargebacks: Do not advocate this as an alternative to the refund process or because you simply refuse to deal with CS. Most, if not all, credit card companies have it written into their policies that you must prove you attempted to deal with the merchant in good faith and request a refund before requesting a chargeback. Spurious (please note use of the word here) chargebacks or misleading chargebacks CAN be considered fraudulent and subject you to penalties. Chargebacks are a VERY serious procedure and should be taken and used as such.
Now, understand that the above is not intended to "scare" anyone into not requesting one. Do so as you wish, but understand the consequence and weight of doing so. Also, be aware that the merchant has the right to dispute the chargeback.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
If you feel cheated, you sincerely did not understand a warning, when it comes from an experienced community offers it to you.
All the company has to do is answer all emails in the order they are received, and be honest about the length of time it will take. The customers aren't avoiding CS, its the other way around.
You have tons of people who want to deal with CS. The issue is the company shuts their emails down after 7 days of not answering them, with an automated message stating if they still have an issue they need to write another email. This new email also gets shut down after 7 days with the same automated message.
This is what brings on most of the chargebacks - the lack of ability or willingness to resolve the issue the user is having in a timely fashion, and penalizing the user for nothing more than waiting patiently by sending them to the back of the line, which turns into an endless loop of emails being closed out after being in a queue for longer than 7 days. When a customer is able to show this pattern based behavior to anyone investigating a chargeback, they will win, hands down, as it is not the users fault the company chooses to close down tickets due to its own inability to support users quickly.
Same, I still don't have my title.
@Topic: I feel cheated and ripped off. What's the point of rushing to become a founder if everyone can still get it after launch
Well said. This is very much how I feel about the issue.
Also, Customer Service, both in response to in-game tickets and emailed concerns, is abysmal. PWE has some of the worst CS I have ever dealt with which is really a shame because the community of the game is fantastic.
Its not like anyone from the community tried to inform folks...
Or this one
I agree with you on the issue being the misleading "exclusivity" of the packs given the fact they continue to sell the packages under a different name. The only way to make this right is to immediately discontinue the practice or give something(g) of SIGNIFICANT value to those of us who bought founders packs.
Exactly. Those were 2 posts taken from god knows where and when, across an entire, very much alive, thread-filled forum - hardly a stickied warning or ReadMeForNewPlayers... And while I applaud the two for trying to warn people, even if someone happened to read one of those two whole posts by to them complete strangers, considering the negativity and doom crying on forums, they could easily have dismissed them as just random bashing or anything. So to in any way suggest that people "had it coming, they were warned" doesn't really work.
This is the value of this thread, and others like it; this is hard to miss, and thanks to the continued support from people of like minds, now alot of people have seen this company under new light, a harsh light, and have more information to base their own opinions on. An important thread, as even the Moderator weighed in on, so I hope we can keep it clean from now on; would be a shame if it got locked and moved to places new players can't see it.
Drow race for all, Ranger class, Epic Skrimishes for level 60 endgame would be a start. I expected to see these items before the end of the summer, but I think now we are hoping for before 2014.
well you see the customer email support for in game issues and account issues takes mroe then 20 days, you see the problem?
You have to solve the customer problems within a reasonable set of time. 20+ days to answer a ticket is not a reasonable set of time. You dont know what your talking about, i have 2 friends who works for chase bank.
Again i stress 20+ days to answer a ticket regarding in game and account issue is not a reasonable set of time. Especially when your customers paid money for foudners pack they never received in game bonsus, and is forced to wait 20+ days to resolve account issues regarding founders pack.
Customers needs to give merchant a reasonable set of time to resolve their account issues, and again 20+ days to resolve account issues is not a reasonable set of time between customers and merchants. Im not the only one experiencing 20+ days trying to get my ticket resolved.
With all due respect, it still does not justify blindly advocating chargebacks. Again, such a procedure is drastic and should be handled as such and neither taken lightly nor frivolously. It's NOT meant to be a substitute for requesting a refund solely on the grounds that the player does not wish to deal with CS.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Maybe you should actually read that post you quoted. 20 days is ridiculous, hell anything beyond 72 hours is ridiculous. CS are intentionally ignoring tickets for chargeback requests. Hell coincidentally when I informed then I will be pursuing my bank for chargeback they responded within a day. Not to mention they are using loopholes to deny requests even though the **** game was in "open-beta" which should have been a preorder status and refunds should not have been an issue.
Back to the OP, well this was expected and STO veterans have long said that this is what will happen as the exact same thing happened in STO.
Shady practice, never again will I ever purchase a Craptic product, and kick me in the nuts for being a D&D fan and being impulsive for Neverwinter.
Let me say this again: I'm not disagreeing with anyone's right to pursue a chargeback. That's your choice, but so are the consequences of that choice.
I'm saying to understand that it's a serious thing and not to be used frivolously. It's meant to be a measure of last resort. It's not meant to be "hey, I read that responses are taking 20 days, screw CS, I'm gonna file a chargeback because I don't want to wait!!"
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Not all who seem to be lost want to be found.
"If they no longer offered them people would be upset."
Ehm, I sincerely doubt that, as people rarely get upset when deals are handled as promised (and founder/vip/limited edition is common in gaming, even expected), people do however get upset when deals are broken and they are tricked, duped or scammed.
"Haters gonna hate, son" is something Bieber fans use. It does not apply here. It has no place here. This is a simple matter of a promised foundation for a deal being revoked; the buyers' tricked after having purchased something under false advertising.
Your job as a cab driver or how you value money really has no relevance to this issue. But I'm glad you're content with your purchase from PWE, and that you appearently have held a job.
Not all who seem to be lost want to be found.
I don't think this would be a losing bet in court. Simply changing the name does not change the contents. If they had promised only an exclusive title you might have a point. A good argument can be made that all contents of the founders pack should be exclusive. This was what was promised.
And yes that might be taking it to extremes, and the players are not looking to do this. But ont he other hand this is exactly the stance PWE has taken only on the opposite end of the spectrum. I think they would have a good chance at losing in court, and really the courts need to step up for consumer rights in the digital entertainment world. If this had happened in the traditional market they would have been slapped down already.
You purchase a product, you don't get said product. You contact customer service. They ignore you. You charge back. You get your money back. There's nothing drastic nor frivolous about this. It's how people handle being screwed by greedy and terrible companies these days.
There are no consequences to charging back other than you get your money back after buying a product but never receiving it. You trying to cover for PWE and Cryptic is laughable in this situation. 20 days? LOL 20 hours is too long. People have been getting screwed by PWE and Cryptic, being completely ignored when they try to get what they paid for, but can't because of there's no customer service in this game at all.
Um...saying that 20 hours is too long to wait is a wee bit unrealistic. The pre-authorization for your transaction alone takes 24-72 hours to release. Also, with the metric crapton of tickets that CS has, doubful that your ticket will even make it to the head of the queue in that short amount of time. Just my opinion, YMMV.
Also, I haven't covered for anything:
I have simply stated that chargebacks are not intended to be used as a method to circumvent the refund process simply because the customer is unwilling to deal with CS.
If they've tried, and still wish to pursue a chargeback, great. As has been said twice: That's your choice but so, too, are the consequences of that choice, of which one of those is an account ban.
If they haven't, then they shouldn't be seeking a chargeback unless they have attempted to resolve the matter in good faith with the merchant. Anecdotal evidence ("I've seen people post that it's more than 20 days for a refund, so I'm not even going to bother, I'm just gonna file a chargeback!!") doesn't meet that criteria. You have to, on a case-by-case basis, first make the effort.
I'm just telling people to understand it for what it is: a method of absolute last resort, that should only be used as such if all else has failed and you believe you should get your money back, and not as way to get around legitimately asking for a refund from the merchant.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
I'll agree that 20 days is a bit much. By way of example, I had an issue with a company that charged my card for something I did not purchase, but gave me my refund--after telling me it would take 7-10 business days to process. Wound up taking two weeks.
That was intended more to make the point that 20 hours is a bit subjective and, IMO, unrealistic. Post edited to reflect that.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
This makes a pretty strong argument on its own.
It's really weak that this issue is going to be ignored. We all understand money needs to be made but this kind of stuff burns through goodwill. Keeping my wallet shut PWE if you are going to be deceptive and let down your most loyal customers "founders".
Hoping this goes away if you ignore it?
17. Fees
PWE may charge fees to access and acquire certain game items or participate in game activities on the Website and may allow the purchase of in game "points" that may be applied to the purchase of in game items or activities ("Zen") ANY APPLICABLE ZEN, FEES AND OTHER CHARGES ARE PAYABLE IN ADVANCE AND ARE NON REFUNDABLE AND NONTRANSFERABLE, IN WHOLE OR IN PART, FOR ANY REASON. ZEN HAVE NO MONETARY VALUE AND CANNOT BE REDEEMED FOR CASH. PWE may, from time to time, modify, amend, or supplement its fees, billing methods and terms applicable to Zen or to any purchases on the Website, and post those changes in these Terms, in separate Terms of Sale or in other terms or agreements posted on the Website or otherwise provided to you by PWE. Such modifications, amendments, supplements or Terms of Sale shall be effective immediately upon posting on the Website and shall be incorporated by reference into these Terms. If any change is unacceptable to you, you may cancel your account at any time.
Highlighted in red/blue the important parts.
PWE can offer Founder Packs/website items then at any time change them/relabel them (which in the ToS language is the ... change the terms applicable to Zen or to any purchases on the Website. The "terms" applicable to any website purchase doesn't mean the price, doesn't mean how to purchase item as both of those terms are explicitly stated. Terms of the website purchase ... the terms of getting those items means buying the Founder's Packs. Change the terms to mean ... to get those items you need to buy the Neverwinter Pack. If you do not like it then do what the ToS says and cancel your account.
If you don't like it cancel your account.
By the way, PWE can you implement more of these Packs?
Consider including one to have the ioun stone and heavy winter wolf for $59 and make it 800k ad instead.
Thankfully ToS mean next to nothing legally(at least in my country). They certainly don't supersede laws around false advertising and consumer protection. A lot of basically irrelevant hot air.
Edit: Also what you posted is just a standard we can change anything we want effective immediately clause. Doesn't state they can market something as exclusive and time limited then go back on the deal. Even if it did it wouldn't hold any water otherwise all ToS would read "We can do anything we want you have no rights the end."
In the end to me this is not about legality anyway it's about respecting the people who in good faith spent money on your product.