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PvP - Fighting from perma stealth is not balance

errantvolleyerrantvolley Member Posts: 46 Arc User
edited July 2013 in PvE Discussion
There are many threads on game balance that touch on all the classes. I have a level 60 of each one now and PvP frequently. Most of the imbalances can be worked around with a good team. That doesn't make them any less inbalanced but it does make them less ridiculous. The Intelligence heavy perma stealth rogue builds with Cloud of Steel has no good counter.

Yes I know you can sort of see where I am by where the daggers land on your body. I use every landscape object to my advantage though and usually toss daggers from on top of something so getting to me before you die is not going to happen. Even if I just go with my Armor Piearcing heavy kit instead of seven teneb power enchants I have little problem taking down most players while they can do nothing but run away. In PvP domination running away is the same thing as winning.

If TRs were already topping the scoreboard because of our already high damage (I usually three shot most classes in a more traditional build) then I could see Cryptic leaving this total cheese build around but I think we all are aware that TRs are already the PvP masters and don't need perma stealth daggers to win. I know it frustrates those we play against and that is exactly why most of the other TRs I know that use it choose to do so. I want PvP to stay fun for everyone so this game can last.

Fighting from within stealth in general is a OP ability but I understand that PW is just following along the path WoW and Rift started. They can do better. Add stealth detection potions to the PvP vendor. Regardless of what they decide to do with stealth in general, though, allowing more than one attack out of stealth is game breaking and no fun for anyone.
Post edited by errantvolley on
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    destinyknightdestinyknight Member Posts: 962 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I see no problem with attack out of stealth what so ever. As most encounters break stealth.

    I wont tell anyone how to counter the at will attacks coming from stealth as its quite a couple.
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    klixanklixan Member Posts: 447 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Please stop it! You do realize that not everyone is interested in PvP don't you?

    The more you PvP players scream for nerfs here and nerfs there, the more we PvE players suffer. Our characters get ruined because a few players found it too over powered in PvP.

    Honestly, I wish they'd just remove PvP from the game altogether. But at the very least, have separate skills for PvP and PvE. Then I don't care what they do to the PvP skills, because my PvE experience won't be effected.
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    huckasexhuckasex Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 145 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    perma CC is imbalanced too, nerf CW, GF and GWF

    /thread
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    errantvolleyerrantvolley Member Posts: 46 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    klixan wrote: »
    Please stop it! You do realize that not everyone is interested in PvP don't you?

    Ok let me tell you how it applies to PvE then. In a CN run a few nights ago the rogue in our group (I was playing GWF at the time) soloed Draco the last 20% using perma stealth daggers. It took a long time but he lost faith in our CW to manage adds so he took it upon himself after the third wipe.

    Even in PvE perma stealth with damage is exploitive.
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    huckasexhuckasex Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 145 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    what you described there isnt exploiting -.-
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    xanos900xanos900 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 116 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    huckasex arent you getting tired of defending the class that you're obviously playing by yourself.? dont answer. i already know what you're going to type.
    however, stealth and CoS is freakin op. i hope they nerf the dmg of those daggers by at least 50% (maybe only in pvp so the pve heroes stop crying) or they change the stealth mechanic so that it instantly breaks after the first attack.

    even a lot of TR's are saying that its unbalanced and that theres not much fun in killing everything without that they have at least a chance to react.

    and dont talk bull**** with blah "you see the direction, the daggers come from" "you can get the rog out with aoe" "cw just has to control bla bla"

    just get it already that in the moment you enter stealth, and SHOULD you have at least a minimum on remaining brain to use, that nobody will find you and thats a ultimate GG at that moment. but not only that.

    cos does so much dmg that your target is at 10-30% HP after it, then you just have to oneshot him and GG.

    but its okay, TR isnt op as **** haha. please tell me more about your knowledge of balance. not.
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    zingarbagezingarbage Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    klixan wrote: »
    Please stop it! You do realize that not everyone is interested in PvP don't you?

    The more you PvP players scream for nerfs here and nerfs there, the more we PvE players suffer. Our characters get ruined because a few players found it too over powered in PvP.

    Honestly, I wish they'd just remove PvP from the game altogether. But at the very least, have separate skills for PvP and PvE. Then I don't care what they do to the PvP skills, because my PvE experience won't be effected.

    PvE players screamed nerf to clerics and ruined our PvP, so pound sand bro.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    abombination247abombination247 Member Posts: 1,279 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    klixan wrote: »
    Please stop it! You do realize that not everyone is interested in PvP don't you?

    The more you PvP players scream for nerfs here and nerfs there, the more we PvE players suffer. Our characters get ruined because a few players found it too over powered in PvP.

    Honestly, I wish they'd just remove PvP from the game altogether. But at the very least, have separate skills for PvP and PvE. Then I don't care what they do to the PvP skills, because my PvE experience won't be effected.

    I wouldn't play if no PvP.


    Next Rogues need more nerfs. Why do they have ranged attacks anyway. Throwing daggers should be a encounter not a at will. Couple more nerfs and we are balanced.
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    huckasexhuckasex Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 145 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    I wouldn't play if no PvP.


    Next Rogues need more nerfs. Why do they have ranged attacks anyway. Throwing daggers should be a encounter not a at will. Couple more nerfs and we are balanced.
    and then we also nerf CWs, GWFs and GFs, otherwise it wouldnt be balanced anymore if we weaken the TR even more
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    pinkfontpinkfont Member Posts: 563 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    xanos900 wrote: »
    huckasex arent you getting tired of defending the class that you're obviously playing by yourself.?

    This criticism makes no sense. Of course rogues would be the ones defending the rogue class against demands for further nerfs. Who else would?
    however, stealth and CoS is freakin op. i hope they nerf the dmg of those daggers by at least 50%

    50%? So, you want it to be useless? It has 12 charges. It does the damage it does because it has limited use. How about this...I'll take an incredibly damaging 50% reduction to CoS damage if...charges are removed and you can use the attack an unlimited amount of time. Otherwise, you just need to learn to adapt like every other decent player. I get hit by stealthed knives all the time, and they never kill me. I anticipate it happening, so I know what to do in the situation.
    or they change the stealth mechanic so that it instantly breaks after the first attack.

    This is just dumb. The rogue class is built around doing damage in stealth. Most of our feat points require us to be in stealth to receive benefits. If at-wills dropped stealth the second you used it, then we would be useless. You don't understand the class enough to be criticizing it.
    even a lot of TR's are saying that its unbalanced and that theres not much fun in killing everything without that they have at least a chance to react.

    Or they are simply people lying about playing rogues, because they continually get killed in PvP. Anecdotal evidence is pointless. The truth is, CoS is needed because rogues are squishy and the damage/stun about of Control Wizards make it absolutely necessary that the attack have good damage behind it. Otherwise we wouldn't ever win a fight with Wizards, nor would we be able to cap any points since we wouldn't be able to fight at range. The attack of has 12 charges, and if you're too dumb too roll out of the way, turn on invulnerability/shield, or teleport; then you deserve to die.
    A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
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    pinkfontpinkfont Member Posts: 563 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    I wouldn't play if no PvP.


    Next Rogues need more nerfs. Why do they have ranged attacks anyway. Throwing daggers should be a encounter not a at will. Couple more nerfs and we are balanced.

    Rogues have a ranged attack because it is essential in PvE. It is used so much in PvP because it's great at finishing off fleeing enemies and because it's necessary for squishy melee classes to have a way of neutralizing threats at range. If rogues didn't have a ranged attack, then they wouldn't be able to capture points. All their other attacks involve leaving the cap point to go chase the wizard, and they don't have enough armor or defense to survive long enough to cap before the ranged wizard kills them.

    Throwing daggers should be an encounter? That's ridiculous. They already have limited charges. If they were an encounter ability, then they would need to have more of an effect that simply dealing damage. They would at least need to slow down the target whenever they get hit.
    A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
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    therealgravecardtherealgravecard Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 49
    edited June 2013
    Throwing knifes should break stealth and it's damage should be nerfed. It's not really fun/fair to die without even seeing your opponent or have a chance to fight back (sometimes i get 3k, 4k and even 5k damage per knife). And let's be honest, who knows how to play with this (and sometimes who doesn't) is rather difficult to find before dying first.
    Gauntlgrym Best Score - 21/2/48
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    todesfaelletodesfaelle Member Posts: 1,370 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I'm down for a Cloud of Steel nerf, so long as our Stealth remains untouched. It's the mechanic that gives Trickster Rogues the ability to be tricky, and basically defines the overall class. CoS only has 12 charges and is mainly unreliable other than in 1 vs. 1 scenarios. In PVE it is also not the best choice for an at-will.

    Most rogue builds already received a severe nerf after Shocking Execution's base damage was reduced by 60% and Bleeds began ticking a lot slower than usual. Some of us have been trying to find ways to recover the playability of our class, and we found it in stealth. Trickster Rogues were meant to be tricky just as all the other classes were meant to perform their given roles. If having Cloud of Steel nerfed makes PVPers happier, then I would gladly support it.
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    pinkfontpinkfont Member Posts: 563 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Throwing knifes should break stealth and it's damage should be nerfed. It's not really fun/fair to die without even seeing your opponent or have a chance to fight back (sometimes i get 3k, 4k and even 5k damage per knife). And let's be honest, who knows how to play with this (and sometimes who doesn't) is rather difficult to find before dying first.

    No, it shouldn't. It's an at-will, and the entire class is built around being able to use at-wills while in stealth. In order to chance that, they'd have to rework the entire feat tree. And an attack with limited charges should definitely to tons of damage. Otherwise the charge limit should be removed.

    As long as we're talking about what's not fun or fair; is it fun to be choked in the air and killed before you hit the ground? Is it fair to be stunned indefinitely, while either slowed or completely immobilized? I can't count how many times I haven't been able to get a single attack off before dying. It happens, especially when the opponent gets the drop on you and plays intelligently. Rogues are not the only class that can do it. It's simply a part of the way this PvP works.
    A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
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    pinkfontpinkfont Member Posts: 563 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    I'm down for a Cloud of Steel nerf, so long as our Stealth remains untouched. It's the mechanic that gives Trickster Rogues the ability to be tricky, and basically defines the overall class. CoS only has 12 charges and is mainly unreliable other than in 1 vs. 1 scenarios. In PVE it is also not the best choice for an at-will.

    Most rogue builds already received a severe nerf after Shocking Execution's base damage was reduced by 60% and Bleeds began ticking a lot slower than usual. Some of us have been trying to find ways to recover the playability of our class, and we found it in stealth. Trickster Rogues were meant to be tricky just as all the other classes were meant to perform their given roles. If having Cloud of Steel nerfed makes PVPers happier, then I would gladly support it.

    But it sounds like you don't really PvP often. I would be fine if DF was nerfed even more, but I don't pretend as though this is okay just because I don't typically run dungeons. Cloud of Steel needs to be high-damaging, or it will be useless at keeping Control Wizards back. They have high-damaging at-wills at range that they can just spam while holding you in the air. We need a way to keep them at bay for as long as it takes to cap a point, and that's why the charges are limited. That's the balance. It's high damage, like all rogue attacks should be, but has limited use for key situations.
    A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
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    dkcandydkcandy Member Posts: 1,555 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    huckasex wrote: »
    perma CC is imbalanced too, nerf CW, GF and GWF

    /thread

    I'm not aware of any class that can Perma CC? If you mean 100% to 0 while CC'ed that just stupid because decent geared players/classes can 1-3 shot every class in any gear. RNG is RNG and the game allows massive CRTs.

    So please think before you post.
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    huckasexhuckasex Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 145 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    dkcandy wrote: »
    I'm not aware of any class that can Perma CC? If you mean 100% to 0 while CC'ed that just stupid because decent geared players/classes can 1-3 shot every class in any gear. RNG is RNG and the game allows massive CRTs.

    So please think before you post.
    so why should only 1 out of 4 classes be nerfed then?

    please think befor you post
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    wholyhandgrenadewholyhandgrenade Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I find it ridiculous that my cleric can lay down chains of light that is supposed to stun anyone moving into or touching it, but it won't work against rogues in stealth mode or rogues that use any of their talents when attacking. I see a rogue, know its around, I cast chains of light on divinity mode, stand in the middle of it and the rogue still backstabs me and has complete unaltered movement after. Also, the duration on chains of light is way too short considering that it is to mark a location and should be up for at least a decent duration.
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    soiledostrichsoiledostrich Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    klixan wrote: »
    Please stop it! You do realize that not everyone is interested in PvP don't you?

    The more you PvP players scream for nerfs here and nerfs there, the more we PvE players suffer. Our characters get ruined because a few players found it too over powered in PvP.

    Honestly, I wish they'd just remove PvP from the game altogether. But at the very least, have separate skills for PvP and PvE. Then I don't care what they do to the PvP skills, because my PvE experience won't be effected.


    /disagreewithyou
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    xippinxippin Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    huckasex wrote: »
    perma CC is imbalanced too, nerf CW, GF and GWF

    /thread

    you might as well put TR's in this one too since a 5 second silence which prevents at wills as well (how does a silence prevent me from swinging my sword or hitting you with my shield or swinging my 2h sword?). Or how about the Smoke Screen? TR's have just as much CC as any other class, albeit a different form of CC.
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    huckasexhuckasex Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 145 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    xippin wrote: »
    you might as well put TR's in this one too since a 5 second silence which prevents at wills as well (how does a silence prevent me from swinging my sword or hitting you with my shield or swinging my 2h sword?). Or how about the Smoke Screen? TR's have just as much CC as any other class, albeit a different form of CC.

    you can walk out of the smoke, etc, nothing needed but simple movement

    but hey, nerfing is easier then learning to play, right?
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    dgfdsdgsgh3dgfdsdgsgh3 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 127 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    huckasex wrote: »
    you can walk out of the smoke, etc, nothing needed but simple movement

    but hey, nerfing is easier then learning to play, right?

    Like you can "walk" (just wait a sec) yourself free from ANY CC in this game, being able to move is just insult to injury while still rendering you completely helpless.
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    adrukenadruken Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I find it ridiculous that my cleric can lay down chains of light that is supposed to stun anyone moving into or touching it,...

    ?!...no? chain of light just root the enemy for a very short time duration, is nowhere written (and never happened to me) that it stuns.
    And by the way, I used to play rogue, then now switched to cleric as main for guild request, and really permastealth rogue can be cauntered without problems, AOE, 360 degree pushes works just fine, trowing knives have also half of the range of normal ranged attack, most of the time is just enough dash /rush a bit further to make attack cease.

    Perhaps more people should roll a rogue just to understand how stealth and trowing knives works, is not easy, perhaps after rolling one TR people would understand that it needs some brains use one properly.
    Also, about the damage, perhaps would be way better nerf some enchantment than nerf some basic attack, just a personal opinion.
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    huckasexhuckasex Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 145 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Like you can "walk" (just wait a sec) yourself free from ANY CC in this game, being able to move is just insult to injury while still rendering you completely helpless.

    nope, when a CW is holding you in the air, when a GF is knocking you around, when a GWF is knocking you around you cant move....not even ItC can be used in the case of GF and GWF

    so please, dont talk about stuff you dont know
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    abombination247abombination247 Member Posts: 1,279 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    pinkfont wrote: »
    Rogues have a ranged attack because it is essential in PvE. It is used so much in PvP because it's great at finishing off fleeing enemies and because it's necessary for squishy melee classes to have a way of neutralizing threats at range. If rogues didn't have a ranged attack, then they wouldn't be able to capture points. All their other attacks involve leaving the cap point to go chase the wizard, and they don't have enough armor or defense to survive long enough to cap before the ranged wizard kills them.

    Throwing daggers should be an encounter? That's ridiculous. They already have limited charges. If they were an encounter ability, then they would need to have more of an effect that simply dealing damage. They would at least need to slow down the target whenever they get hit.

    OK fine can't throw daggers in stealth. /fixed


    PS. Buff GF's health we should have 50k at least.
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    dgfdsdgsgh3dgfdsdgsgh3 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 127 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    huckasex wrote: »
    nope, when a CW is holding you in the air, when a GF is knocking you around, when a GWF is knocking you around you cant move....not even ItC can be used in the case of GF and GWF

    so please, dont talk about stuff you dont know

    What good does the ability to move do when you cannot do anything else, I just cannot grasp what you are trying to prove here.
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    huckasexhuckasex Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 145 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    you can run away to not die with moving...i know, strange concept, but it works
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    dgfdsdgsgh3dgfdsdgsgh3 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 127 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    huckasex wrote: »
    you can run away to not die with moving...i know, strange concept, but it works

    You can slowly walk and no, it does NOT work, you are already dead while slowly walking to your grave.
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    huckasexhuckasex Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 145 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    strange then, i dont die from it and im prolly more squishy then cause im a rogue myself...now, when i can do it, why cant you?
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    dgfdsdgsgh3dgfdsdgsgh3 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 127 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    huckasex wrote: »
    strange then, i dont die from it and im prolly more squishy then cause im a rogue myself...now, when i can do it, why cant you?

    Because I am not rogue, end of discussion.
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