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TR Cloud of Steel + Stealth is absurd!
jackmehandy
Member Posts: 17 Arc User
There is absolutely zero justification for this and it is nothing short of amateur logic by amateur devs. I need a reply from a dev as soon as possible on this and I NEED to know the reasoning behind this ridiculous amount of damage while stealthed and whether or not they will drastically change this in the future.
Also, endless knockdowns by GF's is out of control, put a DR on that FFS.
Also, endless knockdowns by GF's is out of control, put a DR on that FFS.
Post edited by jackmehandy on
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you just need to learn the easy ways to avoid the damage.
This is pretty much how you counter it.
Well, its what works for me on cleric(I just die moments later because you know, POS class that can't even self heal).
"Demanding" anything on the private internet forum usually ends up with warning/ban.
and CW, GFs and GWFs kill rogue 100 to 0 countless times too
Yep, but in that cases TR have chance to kill when he gets first strike.
who ever gets first strike, wins
@pinkfont, no, just no. Balancing game play is key kid, I'm not even going to elaborate the importance of this to you.
yes, it is
and since you dont see that it means you dont understand the game
props for knocking yoruself out
Lol, yes I'm sure the dev's intended running and/or LoS'n the only means of survival or "avoiding damage" for most classes versus the cheesey mindless perma stealth CoS spam build... :rolleyes:
Picture your toon as the big, bad tr is tossing daggers at you. Now focus very hard on your toon. Notice anything about the daggers? maybe something about their position on your character's model? You should be wondering, "why are they all piled up on a single side of my toon?"
Now follow this line of reasoning and you should come up with a solution. one that does not involve a needless nerf to a perfectly fine ability/build that is easily countered by every, single class in the game!
btw i do not play a cos stealth build tr (but they do seem interesting, especially the int-based build. a tr pumping int? awesome), so stop that counterargument right now. It just bothers me to no end that people yell for nerfs without even trying to adapt. A change in tactics is all that is required to defeat a cos/stealth tr.
Rogues are capable of doing 48k LB crits while LA is active, able to 100-0 people without leaving stealth or coming close.
Bad rogues are easy to beat, good ones, which are rare however, are impossible, but game shouldn't be balanced around bad players.
Solution is simple - rogue should leave stealth when dealing damage, simple as that.
Dude, if rogues are so OP, go play one.. I am going to guess you play a CW, even if you deny it... That's the class that gets hurt the worst from Cloud of Steel. Imgine that a cloth class. I am going to further guess you hate that their charged range attack is better than yours. Guess what, we can do any at will powers from stealth with no penalty.. Duh, its kind of the point of being a rogue.
Might want to try scrambling out of the way??? They have to sit still to throw those daggers, if you run and move out of range, guess what, they have to pursue or move else where. By that time their stealth will pop off.
Who would of thunk it, rogues being sneaky and stealthy?
So by your logic, you're saying run towards the damage and find him in stealth. So run or dodge towards the direction of being hit by CoS (with dmg building per consecutive attack) with speed swindle reducing run speed by 10% and increasing their run speed by 10%, while they could have sneak attack slotted for 30% movement speed while stealthed, bait and switch for new stealth bar + distraction+evade or shadow strike for new stealth bar+dmg, perhaps they have sneaky stabber for 10% stealth refill for their dodges to avoid your detection. The simplest of minds such as huckasex could maintain damage and avoid detection easily. Not to mention, running towards the damage to detect them in stealth puts you in melee range and using stamina to avoid CoS spam kind of puts you a slight disadvantage as a CW or DC versus a TR with lashing blade waiting.
Sure running towards the damage might work sometimes if the TR is horribad, otherwise no... LoS or retreating is really the only viable means of defense for most classes.. and defending this cheesey build only makes you look stupid imo.
But the only time I find it "overpowered" is when I'm getting knives I can't dodge chunking my health down while they're invisible.
There's literally no counter to it save for a few rogue abilities or maybe some of the class ults such as the GWF's jump.
If rogues go invisible the counter is to keep moving and make it hard for them to attack essencially buying time while they are untargetable but that goes away when they can simply throw knives around which do a fair chunk of damage each. Even if it was made so that throwing knives decreased the stealth bar it would be a much more balanced system.
Rogues need their stealth to survive in fights but they shouldn't be able to kill multiple squishier targets such as control wizards while in stealth purely by throwing knives which can't be dodged.
EDIT - Just to make this clear I am not a developer. And while they read the forums regularly I can tell you right now demanding or "needing" a developer reply often makes them less likely to want to reply.
As the saying goes, "Thems fightin' words."
The issue is when you factor in certain enchantments that add to overall on hit damage,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y48A7iA3q6w
As you can see from this video, and pay attention to the numbers popping up while I'm CoSing, you'll notice it isn't just CoS damaging the target (Think about those enchantments). Now if we're talking about counters, line of sight renders CoS 100% unless, in Hotenow domination, each objective allows you to do that. In Rivenscar ruins, you'll have to use dodge/block/etc essentially range CoS and wait for stealth to wear off before opening. Other stealth breaking abilities applies, you'll see again in the video (for rogues), my usage of PoB to knock other rogues out of stealth.
Honestly, in terms of knocking rogues out of stealth, CWs have it the easiest (I'll let you figure out which one specific skill does this all the time), rogues next, followed by GFs/GWFs and lastly and probably the hardest DCs.
I'm sorry but a counter that doesn't involve the usage of a single encounter/power/feat is the best balance design possible. Not to mention perma stealth builds are, as you put it cheesey builds, in that after he empties his 12 daggers, and the target does not dies, what encounters does he have left to use? shadow strike/bait and switch are possibly the 2 worst PvP encounters you could bring to a fight. At that point he either left clicks you to death (of which if you can't totally destroy him with all your encounters then whelp...) or runs off and waits for his daggers to recharge, taking him out of any/all fights in that time, a tactical advantage to the other team.
The same can be said, a competent CW can't be killed by anyone, ever, or for that matter any class, because ... you know running away is extremely easy in this game? (Ok fine, GFs can't run but you get the bloody idea)
LB is easily dodged out of stealth, a little bit harder from stealth (although those expecting it usually manage to avoid a LB from stealth by pre-empting a dodge when you spot a TR in stealth next to you) . With LA, it means using a daily, granted it still possibly one shots, but its a daily... rogues build AP the slowest. That said, that's an issue with the multiplier on LA and how it affects other skills, not the base skill or LB.
I'll sum up your response: You can Line of sight, therefore there is nothing wrong with me being immune to crowd control, being able to attack while in stealth and being able to do incredible amounts of damage with cloud of steal... if you don't like it, hide.
I need a more professional response than this please
I can smell the desperation for them not to nerf your imbalanced class in your response by the way. ITC, Stealth + CoS. Nerf it, there is no need for them to work together like that and yes, having any ranged damage to follow up after CoS will be enough to finish off the target. Stop being pathetic.
You clearly did not read my response, nor took the time to actually look at the numbers of the video. So I'll reiterate it for you once more.
The issue is not being able to attack from stealth, nor the base damage of said ability. (You have to actually spec for CoS for it to deal sufficient damage)
The issue is when you factor in certain enchantments that add to overall on hit damage
ItC has already been nerfed... Stealth (damage) was nerfed coming out of Closed beta... Shocking execution was nerfed recently, they have been fixing/balancing Rogues since closed beta and it has gotten a lot more balanced, your continued insistence that Rogues are still unbalanced on those points (ItC/Stealth/CoS) is unfounded. I've said this time and time again, the base abilities/encounters/feats/powers of rogues for the most apart have been or are currently balanced, however it's when you add in the effects of certain enchantments then couple together how those enchantments work with a select few of rogues abilities, then it is here that a balancing issue occurs as this is where rogues benefit the greatest from. That's not to say other classes cannot benefit from said enchantments either. Now I refuse to flat out name those enchantments for one simple reason, go test and figure out what I'm talking about, I'm not here to spoon feed you every bit of god **** information (I've already given you flat out how it's done in my video, that's as much spoon feeding I'm going to do). The usage/unbalancing nature of said enchantments have already been debated multiple times over and it's safe to say the dev's are aware of it, when and how they change it though remains to be seen.
So quit whining about rogues as a whole, and start whining about the enchantments (which every class has access to and can use).
Lol its hilarious, you're response is either a bit about enchantments that anybody can get or a run away and los bit... again, I need a SERIOUS response. This is not cutting it and its pathetic.
sigh. Class encounter line up on its own for the most part is balanced using said tactics, while enchantments make said class encounter line up unbalanced. So where is the root cause of the issue? Clearly not the class encounters, but the enchantments. What more do I need to say to get you to understand.
I'm done with you, I've said what needs to be said.
you just refuse to read the advice given to you and continue to whine about something that can be easily solved by understanding how the game works
He lists some quite useful counters, which, when playing vs a decent team render a stealth based rogue at the edge of useless. That's at least the experience I've made in my matches.
And if you, as a stealth rogue who - mostly - refrains from using ItC get caught off guard by ANY class, CWs/GFs in particular, you're nothing but a dangling punching bag. And die within two hits. W/o soulforged at least. (For more on the actually imbalance issue-> certain enchants <- go read strawbyx's well founded reply again. And again. And maybe take a step back and look at the entire topic a bit more rationally than emotionally
By the way, did you know that you can actually see and target 'invisible' rogues? And if you stun them while they have lurker's up, you even cancel that daily? This is where I go hyper rage every time
Besides the fact that 12 daggers is more then enough for squishies or other non squishies (given the right enchantments).... Bait and switch + shadow strike to remain in stealth and avoid detection while dealing damage with CoS recharges, or perhaps throw a impact shot rotation in before your shadow strike.. Or jump CoS moving towards the target as they waste their stamina and drop a lashing blade or impossible to catch.. I stand by my statement before about people that are defending this.... It's just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in its current state and to say otherwise is asinine.