There is absolutely zero justification for this and it is nothing short of amateur logic by amateur devs. I need a reply from a dev as soon as possible on this and I NEED to know the reasoning behind this ridiculous amount of damage while stealthed and whether or not they will drastically change this in the future.
Also, endless knockdowns by GF's is out of control, put a DR on that FFS.
First off you don't get to demand anything, secondly you sound like a petulant child ready to throw a temper tantrum, thirdly no Developer will respond to a question this loaded. So please calm down and learn to politely state the issue as you see it, offer a helpful solution as to how this can be addressed and ask for feedback on your post and maybe, just maybe someone with more insight will read and/or respond to your post.
I fully understand the reaction when your class is being threatened with a nerf. And I think I've basically said all the things most TR's said here. But this is not just about stealth, or CoS, or Tene's...it's about how it all combines into something that definitely is so powerful that it gets almost any TR to the top of the score board.
I can understand the nerf-cryers who with pot-luck chance pick a power to nerf, hoping that this will end their worries. Of course it won't, so the next random power is picked. See what happened with Shocking Execution and Duelist Fury, it didn't solve much.
I've seen some good suggestions on the boards on how to 'nerf' or fix the whole combination of ranged stealth, CoS and runes, which won't really gimp anything in PvE.
I haven't seen many suggestions as practical tactics against this combination, other than a) run away, or b) hope it's a bad TR.
This all boils down to TENEBROUS + non pve rogues, with high GS and pvp only spec, killed me in pvp and I can't figure out the counter, that others have figured out.
Every time they nerf Rogues, it makes them worse in PVE! Less Rogues PVE! More creative builds show up that ignore PVE. More rogues PVP only! More people complain!
I suggest you give rogues back their PVE dmg, and pay them 10k free glory per day to Never PVP? I bet a lot of them would jump at that.
By the way those complaining about running from rogues???? Seriously rogues are so simple to Dismantle with any class. If you are not killing rogues left and right you just simply lack Talent! Yes I said it... You fail at PVP, and should focus on PVE.
Lastly if you still want to cry about rogues, do the serious pvpers a favor... roll a rogue! We love free kills and that is just what you will be.
Jump and shoot is apparently a way to speed that up just a bit.
Plus if you're going Stealth Rogue you should be using at least some of the Saboteur Feats. At the very least you should probably be mixing feats. Speed Swindle is a first tier feat and well worth throwing some points in if you are planning on building around stealth.
Speed Swindle is very underrated when it comes to speccing your TR for pvp.
Speed Swindle is very underrated when it comes to speccing your TR for pvp.
And it's underestimated. A 10% slow for him and increase for you on every crit, that's huge whichever way his back is facing. It's only at the first tier of the sab path, so even a great side-feat for a crit-based build.
And it's underestimated. A 10% slow for him and increase for you on every crit, that's huge whichever way his back is facing. It's only at the first tier of the sab path, so even a great side-feat for a crit-based build.
Only way to lock down GWFs from running 60mph when they're low on health.
Only way to lock down GWFs from running 60mph when they're low on health.
I don't have that issue as I kill them in 1-2 hits. Only GWF's with soul armor enchant can run away for a few seconds while I mount up and kill them with lunge.
So, reading these posts told me:
Problem1: TR does very high damage with CoS while being stealthed.
Problem2: Before the other players can determine where the TR is, he is already dead.
Now, quite a few people have suggested methods to counter them. Has anyone else tried them other than then the person who mentioned it? It should be possible to come up with a counter that works with all these suggestions mentioned here. Infact it seems rogues themselves are commenting here how they fight while under stealth.
When comes to pvp, it is a clusterpoop. In pve, all classes works fine. For pvp there should be a huge fix to the skills we have.
take Guild Wars pvp for example, most of the skills will act differently when you are in pvp mode thus putting some fair fight among all classes. If Cryptic goes by this method, the pvp will be fair enough not just to CC to death. Otherwise QQing in here wont get you anything.
Pvp was actually very fine prior to level 60. Its just the damage in pvp is outragous at level 60. And if its like that now, it will worsen exponentially whenever the level cap is raised. So there needs to be some toning right now in damage in pvp before it gets to that point.
Lol this thread is digressing into retardation.. The plain and simple fact is that if you're arguing in defense of this currently overpowered build then you are either trolling, haven't experienced just how overpowered it actually is when done correctly with good build/gear/player, or are just plain ignorant. Either way the issue will be addressed at some point because of its effectiveness when done correctly.
If you die to a CoS from full health, you are either getting hit by someone that is Pay to win, full enchants that would roll you either way or you SUCK TERRIBLY bad, as a trickster that is squishy I have never died from full health to this tactic, I can see if they are full pay to win enchants or exploit to win enchants.
if you suck that bad, STOP PVPING, go tuck your head inyour pillow as QQ till you have no desire to pvp again.
If you die to a CoS from full health, you are either getting hit by someone that is Pay to win, full enchants that would roll you either way or you SUCK TERRIBLY bad, as a trickster that is squishy I have never died from full health to this tactic, I can see if they are full pay to win enchants or exploit to win enchants.
if you suck that bad, STOP PVPING, go tuck your head inyour pillow as QQ till you have no desire to pvp again.
Unlike you, some classes don't have stealth or ItC. Besides even getting greater enchants is easy, perfect ones will take some time but are also easily achievable. There is no such thing as "pay go win". Besides, game's PvP shouldn't be balanced around sh1tty gear anyway.
And if you think that "full enchants" will make someone get a guaranteed kill on you - you shouldn't call others bad.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
So, reading these posts told me:
Problem1: TR does very high damage with CoS while being stealthed.
Problem2: Before the other players can determine where the TR is, he is already dead.
Now, quite a few people have suggested methods to counter them. Has anyone else tried them other than then the person who mentioned it? It should be possible to come up with a counter that works with all these suggestions mentioned here. Infact it seems rogues themselves are commenting here how they fight while under stealth.
The only counter, even according to the rogues, is to run but that's not a counter. If all you can do is run than it's simply too strong of a combo. The bottom line is running just because staying is a guaranteed death will result in the loss of a team fight. While you are running the rest of your team is over-run.
Rogues are fighting other rogues using this combo by also going in stealth. Even if their stealth doesn't last as long it will at least prevent any issues for a period of time and allow them to basically use the same tactic against the other team in the mean time.
However for clerics and wizards who have no way to make themselves untargetable the only option is to run. Even if you know where the rogues are there's no spells which can stop them without being able to target them.
Clerics have Chains of Blazing Light which will help them run but honestly when I'm getting hit for 3K damage per knife the pause from casting will basically kill me. Furthermore chains doesn't stop them from attacking so it's merely an additional tool to get out of range. The knives can and do eat right through my Astral Shield and Sunburst's repulse will not knock them out of range or at least not for long most times.
Wizards have a few spells at their disposal but less HP and less defense. There are a number of lesser used spells which may help but overall anything that could truly counter would require a target and the spells which don't truly counter would only aid in escape and are less than a true counter and more about hoping you have a vague idea of where the rogue is.
All in all there's no counter because there's no way to prevent the damage. I can run around to counter stealth melee attacks. Sometimes I'll get hit, sometimes I won't. That's perfectly fair. The knives can't be dodged and the rogues can't have their stealth disabled or have their attacks interrupted by a stun of some sort without being targetable.
Honestly the solution which would effect both PvE the least is to make CoS lower the duration of stealth. That shouldn't effect rogues too much outside of PvP and would put a damper on the guarantee kill combination that is occurring against Clerics and Wizards in PvP.
The only counter, even according to the rogues, is to run but that's not a counter. If all you can do is run than it's simply too strong of a combo. The bottom line is running just because staying is a guaranteed death will result in the loss of a team fight. While you are running the rest of your team is over-run.
.
Just want to point out that stealth + CoS is not an issue before level cap. Therefore the problem is not the skills but the scaling of gear/enchants etc at level cap. BTW I do not main a rogue- and I also hate getting owned by CoS (whether from stealth or not).
Just face it pvp is broken at level cap, the only good pvp-and it is good- is at lower levels when you get a 2 full non-afk, non-bot, non-multibox teams, preferably with no GF decked out in full purples. If you play a lot of pvp you actually get to see quite a lot of exciting pvp games-before level cap. And I reiterate, I have never had an issue with CoS at lower levels.
The only counter, even according to the rogues, is to run but that's not a counter
That's incorrect. Skim through the thread again, please.
Just last night, I played vs. a premade which apparently was quite experienced and these guys really knew how to take out a perma stealth rogue, which is by draining the stealth bar via aoe/closing in as opposed to running away - as already mentioned dozen times before.
That's incorrect. Skim through the thread again, please.
Just last night, I played vs. a premade which apparently was quite experienced and these guys really knew how to take out a perma stealth rogue, which is by draining the stealth bar via aoe/closing in as opposed to running away - as already mentioned dozen times before.
I haven't seen anybody mention that in this thread. Just a bunch of people saying "just run away" or "I know the answer but I'm not going to tell you" which, let's face it, is often a bluff.
Decent plan. I'll try it but even that would rely on extreme organisation of the team to basically keep an eye on for the rogues trying to kill the CW and DC. It's not something that a DC or CW could do without the rest of the team. The damage is, quite literally, 2-3 seconds until death at most (often less). That might work with a GWF or GF with a DC and CW but even if it's just a DC and CW alone it's still bot going to stop the kills since the AoE Abilities of both are either lower range or require a target.
well, u can dodge away from the attacker right? just watch closely where the daggers is coming from..
If you are lucky you'll live. Normally you'll die before you get out of range once the rogue is within range.
Plus rogues who are building around stealth really should have invested in Speed Swindle which will reduce your speed 10% and increase theirs 10% if they crit (which tends to be basically every CoS attack anyway)
Maybe one other option is to disable target locking in CoS. Right now how CoS works is as soon as the first blade is thrown it locks itself onto the target as long as the mouse button is held which makes all the remaining blades hit the target. The TR can simply stay stationary in stealth and spam away CoS confidant that it will hit the target however much the target is jumping about. With the fast paced action in pvp, it should make CoS miss a lot and also force TRs into thinking where and when to use it.
Right now, its really easy to hit moving targets with CoS because of this auto-aim.
Maybe one other option is to disable target locking in CoS. Right now how CoS works is as soon as the first blade is thrown it locks itself onto the target as long as the mouse button is held which makes all the remaining blades hit the target. The TR can simply stay stationary in stealth and spam away CoS confidant that it will hit the target however much the target is jumping about. With the fast paced action in pvp, it should make CoS miss a lot and also force TRs into thinking where and when to use it.
Right now, its really easy to hit moving targets with CoS because of this auto-aim.
never experienced that but even if CoS wouldnt autoaim, then holding down left ctrl would do the trick as easily
and if CoS does autoaim and it is about to be removed, then the hardlock on left ctrl should also be removed
Maybe one other option is to disable target locking in CoS. Right now how CoS works is as soon as the first blade is thrown it locks itself onto the target as long as the mouse button is held which makes all the remaining blades hit the target. The TR can simply stay stationary in stealth and spam away CoS confidant that it will hit the target however much the target is jumping about. With the fast paced action in pvp, it should make CoS miss a lot and also force TRs into thinking where and when to use it.
Right now, its really easy to hit moving targets with CoS because of this auto-aim.
The problem is balance then. If you make it so you can miss then you need to give them more shots or you essentially make a zero attack while the other classes don't need to aim their attacks? The wizard gets to lock on still? I've even seen both wizard and cleric dots hit from around corners. So you want to nerf the rogue but these other classes get to keep their CoS?
Comments
go figure
First off you don't get to demand anything, secondly you sound like a petulant child ready to throw a temper tantrum, thirdly no Developer will respond to a question this loaded. So please calm down and learn to politely state the issue as you see it, offer a helpful solution as to how this can be addressed and ask for feedback on your post and maybe, just maybe someone with more insight will read and/or respond to your post.
I can understand the nerf-cryers who with pot-luck chance pick a power to nerf, hoping that this will end their worries. Of course it won't, so the next random power is picked. See what happened with Shocking Execution and Duelist Fury, it didn't solve much.
I've seen some good suggestions on the boards on how to 'nerf' or fix the whole combination of ranged stealth, CoS and runes, which won't really gimp anything in PvE.
I haven't seen many suggestions as practical tactics against this combination, other than a) run away, or b) hope it's a bad TR.
Every time they nerf Rogues, it makes them worse in PVE! Less Rogues PVE! More creative builds show up that ignore PVE. More rogues PVP only! More people complain!
I suggest you give rogues back their PVE dmg, and pay them 10k free glory per day to Never PVP? I bet a lot of them would jump at that.
By the way those complaining about running from rogues???? Seriously rogues are so simple to Dismantle with any class. If you are not killing rogues left and right you just simply lack Talent! Yes I said it... You fail at PVP, and should focus on PVE.
Lastly if you still want to cry about rogues, do the serious pvpers a favor... roll a rogue! We love free kills and that is just what you will be.
Speed Swindle is very underrated when it comes to speccing your TR for pvp.
And it's underestimated. A 10% slow for him and increase for you on every crit, that's huge whichever way his back is facing. It's only at the first tier of the sab path, so even a great side-feat for a crit-based build.
Only way to lock down GWFs from running 60mph when they're low on health.
I don't have that issue as I kill them in 1-2 hits. Only GWF's with soul armor enchant can run away for a few seconds while I mount up and kill them with lunge.
I **** other TRs who try to do this? result, they run around like a chicken while in stalth while I dodge and then combo them down in about...
2seconds.
l2p kids
usually those that tell others to learn to play are themselves playing over powered character classes and are fully dollar equipped up
Aren't you actually just proving the point that CoS+Stealth+whatever crit/enchantment-thing going is too powerful?
I agree TR's are squishy, but nothing should wipe any character in 2 seconds.
Lrn2pay noobz?
/jk
Problem1: TR does very high damage with CoS while being stealthed.
Problem2: Before the other players can determine where the TR is, he is already dead.
Now, quite a few people have suggested methods to counter them. Has anyone else tried them other than then the person who mentioned it? It should be possible to come up with a counter that works with all these suggestions mentioned here. Infact it seems rogues themselves are commenting here how they fight while under stealth.
No, because I dont abuse it and I smash all TRs who go that route.
I play with a regular PvE/PVP build I just have nice gear and know how to combo.
take Guild Wars pvp for example, most of the skills will act differently when you are in pvp mode thus putting some fair fight among all classes. If Cryptic goes by this method, the pvp will be fair enough not just to CC to death. Otherwise QQing in here wont get you anything.
As for me, this game has no pvp.
if you suck that bad, STOP PVPING, go tuck your head inyour pillow as QQ till you have no desire to pvp again.
Unlike you, some classes don't have stealth or ItC. Besides even getting greater enchants is easy, perfect ones will take some time but are also easily achievable. There is no such thing as "pay go win". Besides, game's PvP shouldn't be balanced around sh1tty gear anyway.
And if you think that "full enchants" will make someone get a guaranteed kill on you - you shouldn't call others bad.
The only counter, even according to the rogues, is to run but that's not a counter. If all you can do is run than it's simply too strong of a combo. The bottom line is running just because staying is a guaranteed death will result in the loss of a team fight. While you are running the rest of your team is over-run.
Rogues are fighting other rogues using this combo by also going in stealth. Even if their stealth doesn't last as long it will at least prevent any issues for a period of time and allow them to basically use the same tactic against the other team in the mean time.
However for clerics and wizards who have no way to make themselves untargetable the only option is to run. Even if you know where the rogues are there's no spells which can stop them without being able to target them.
Clerics have Chains of Blazing Light which will help them run but honestly when I'm getting hit for 3K damage per knife the pause from casting will basically kill me. Furthermore chains doesn't stop them from attacking so it's merely an additional tool to get out of range. The knives can and do eat right through my Astral Shield and Sunburst's repulse will not knock them out of range or at least not for long most times.
Wizards have a few spells at their disposal but less HP and less defense. There are a number of lesser used spells which may help but overall anything that could truly counter would require a target and the spells which don't truly counter would only aid in escape and are less than a true counter and more about hoping you have a vague idea of where the rogue is.
All in all there's no counter because there's no way to prevent the damage. I can run around to counter stealth melee attacks. Sometimes I'll get hit, sometimes I won't. That's perfectly fair. The knives can't be dodged and the rogues can't have their stealth disabled or have their attacks interrupted by a stun of some sort without being targetable.
Honestly the solution which would effect both PvE the least is to make CoS lower the duration of stealth. That shouldn't effect rogues too much outside of PvP and would put a damper on the guarantee kill combination that is occurring against Clerics and Wizards in PvP.
Just want to point out that stealth + CoS is not an issue before level cap. Therefore the problem is not the skills but the scaling of gear/enchants etc at level cap. BTW I do not main a rogue- and I also hate getting owned by CoS (whether from stealth or not).
Just face it pvp is broken at level cap, the only good pvp-and it is good- is at lower levels when you get a 2 full non-afk, non-bot, non-multibox teams, preferably with no GF decked out in full purples. If you play a lot of pvp you actually get to see quite a lot of exciting pvp games-before level cap. And I reiterate, I have never had an issue with CoS at lower levels.
That's incorrect. Skim through the thread again, please.
Just last night, I played vs. a premade which apparently was quite experienced and these guys really knew how to take out a perma stealth rogue, which is by draining the stealth bar via aoe/closing in as opposed to running away - as already mentioned dozen times before.
I haven't seen anybody mention that in this thread. Just a bunch of people saying "just run away" or "I know the answer but I'm not going to tell you" which, let's face it, is often a bluff.
Decent plan. I'll try it but even that would rely on extreme organisation of the team to basically keep an eye on for the rogues trying to kill the CW and DC. It's not something that a DC or CW could do without the rest of the team. The damage is, quite literally, 2-3 seconds until death at most (often less). That might work with a GWF or GF with a DC and CW but even if it's just a DC and CW alone it's still bot going to stop the kills since the AoE Abilities of both are either lower range or require a target.
If you are lucky you'll live. Normally you'll die before you get out of range once the rogue is within range.
Plus rogues who are building around stealth really should have invested in Speed Swindle which will reduce your speed 10% and increase theirs 10% if they crit (which tends to be basically every CoS attack anyway)
Right now, its really easy to hit moving targets with CoS because of this auto-aim.
and if CoS does autoaim and it is about to be removed, then the hardlock on left ctrl should also be removed
The problem is balance then. If you make it so you can miss then you need to give them more shots or you essentially make a zero attack while the other classes don't need to aim their attacks? The wizard gets to lock on still? I've even seen both wizard and cleric dots hit from around corners. So you want to nerf the rogue but these other classes get to keep their CoS?