I don't fear any other class as a DC. I won't win anything 1v1 anymore but I can at least dodge or hold them down.
Control Wizards can be nasty but if I have an ally nearby and the CW focuses on me chances are my ally is going to start messing with the CW. With a stealthed rogue the only thing that can be done is me running and leaving my ally behind which is hopefully a GF who has some chance of withstanding the barrage.
The difference comes down to how positioning can win fights. I can dodge GF's and GWF's all day in most casts. I can at least have allies help contend with CW's who decide to mess up my day...but when a rogue goes into stealth with the intention of simply throwing daggers the only positioning which will make a difference is if I leave town.
Stealth could be renamed to "Teleport One CW and One DC out of the fight for 20-30 seconds"
Is that wording a bit more clearer to the true power of the combination?
The other classes are fine. Heck the rogue is fine outside of the fact that CoS is completely uncountable short of CW's and DC's leaving the fight and often end up dead just trying to leave.
so a DC gets ripped apart by a TR, a TR gets ripped apart by CW, GWF and GF, cant comment on other classes for pvp
thats rock paper scissors, no need to nerf rock just cause you happen to be scissors <No Memes>
and its exactly the same when a CW, GWF or GF is approaching...so better nerf them too, right?
your words
You're another one of those guys that I only see really bright and intelligent posts from! Keep up the grrrrreat work at being really smart man! Cheers! :rolleyes:
in all game will be some1 who always better than u, question of time, when u meat him. But no 1 can say " i must l2p", easy way - say ' nerf". Not more time ago u cry about tr oneshoting. They nerf it, but u suck again. Now u cry about CoS - they can nerf it too, but u again will suck from other source.
never, no1 mmo can't be balanced so much as "rock-paper-scissors".Only 1 value gamer can upgrade - SKILL.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
Thing is CW don't outright beat TR's. I was actually commonly considered the direct opposite even before the CoS and stealth became fairly mainstream.
In fact the only one at this point in time with the specific build which is complained about in this thread which can possible stand up to the Stealth CoS combo is a Guardian Fighter or another rogue who can counter by going in stealth.
I haven't heard any GWF comments on the TR Stealth and CoS but I know it's completely uncountable by me and the only chance CW's have is to CC and burst them down before they ever get a chance to activate stealth.
If rogues were truly balanced correctly the Rock Paper Scissiors comments would hold up because one class would just destroy the rogue but right now the rogue can kill two obscenely quickly with no risk, kill one with at least moderate difficulty, stalemate against itself and possibly get beaten by a GF if their guard meter can stand against the barrage.
It's more like the kids who start wiggling their fingers and making blowing/growling sounds saying "Lava beats everything!"
Even if a CW gets the jump on the TR with choke, they just pops ITC and goes into stealth. TR proceds to use COS, CW is either dead or below 30% after COSx12. TR uses shadowstrike to finish off the CW. If by any miracle the CW doesnt die from shadowstrike, hes still dazed for several seconds, more than enough time to clean up the remaining hp on the CW.
even if the TR can use ItC, the CW can still port away without getting any damage
as i said numerous times now: the problem isnt that TR is overpowered, the Problem is that people dont know how to play against it
if you have noticed, in your post its not CoS that is killing your CW, its ItC that is needed to break your 100% > 0 Stunlock...and on GWF and GF ItC doesnt even work!
rock paper scissors, you know (actually lizard and spock too since its 5 classes, but meh)
you people really really need to stop pvping . Honestly and sincerely I beg of you to stop it because you have no freaking idea of how to counter a simple class ! Cos have 30m range, When a tr uses cos u can easily know 'atleast' what direction the hit is coming from a cleric just tele forward and uses sunburst, a gf with a functioning brain starts blocking or uses shield repel, a gwf spams aoe and cw pops singularity and repel and during all these if the tr does 1 thing wrong he will lose his "perma stealth" rotation. I play with people following perma stealth and i see how they get <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> with it by people that actually knows how to pvp. The only helping advice for all you intelligent pro pvpers is play mario and be happy ! other than that with ur pro skills im sure u cant beat a good pvper whether hes a cleric/gf/gwf/cw or tr ...
Those who dont folow stealth build and goes 1 on 1 with gwf/gf/cw gets <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> right and left what bout that ? U know
u ppl cry about balance and im sure none of u whiners have fought a single gwf with 7 sloted greater tenebrous that ****s on faster then u can breath but u dont see us qqing about that ... It all realy comes down to this , 1st learn to play , if its too **** difficult just do urself and all other a favor and stop doing it...
I think things will go so chaotic once gaunt is implemented, what u guys gona do if u run on 20 gfs ? think u can handle the 20 shild bashes ? or 20 stealth tr ? or 10 clerics ? Seriously guys learn to use other classes weakness to ur strength or no nerf can help u win.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Let the darkness prevail ,,For I rise from there ..
Even if a CW gets the jump on the TR with choke, they just pops ITC and goes into stealth. TR proceds to use COS, CW is either dead or below 30% after COSx12. TR uses shadowstrike to finish off the CW. If by any miracle the CW doesnt die from shadowstrike, hes still dazed for several seconds, more than enough time to clean up the remaining hp on the CW.
Only if the rogue HAS itc, which would take the place of better silencing/damaging skills. If he doesn't have ITC, then he's dead, because CW damage is insane for a "control" class, and there is still not enough meaningful diminishing returns on their abilities. If CoS are nerfed again, then Control Wizards dam well better be next in the line. Any CW who dies to a ranged attack with limited charges is bad. Especially when they have more escapability than the frickin' "rogue" class for some reason.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
Cloud of Steel has a 60' Range.
You're thinking of Shocking Execution which has a 30' range. Trickster Rogue Powers.
While shorter than CW or DC 80' Range attacks those attacks don't do much good when a TR can simply stealth into range and chunk them down.
Key thing to remember is that the ability either forces a death or forces a complete retreat because staying will always result in death. There's no dodging or countering once the rogue is in stealth. No chance to survive save for running away.
And running = loss of point = loss of game.
I'm not the best PvPer but I'm certainly not the worst. All of you have said "play better" but have yet to supply any means to counter the attacks once it starts. Rogues can certainly two hit me with the right combination and a bit of luck on their encounter powers but nothing is intended to grant rogues one hit kills and in essence that's what some of you are saying. The counter is to kill them before they ever even begin to attack otherwise you're dead and then it's your fault.
That's fine and dandy. I do it all the time when possible.
But that is not a valid argument or tactic. That's just common sense. Guaranteed kills with no counters save kill them before they come within range are not intended.
PinkFont - The issue is that the escapability is all but gone once the rogue is in stealth and within 60'. If you can get away it's purely because the rogue is bad.
Being forced to run before the fight even begins is the problem. Binds will kill them but stealth can all but guarantee a kill, two or three. The knives alone can kill 1-2 CW easily. If they can also get in range of encounters they can easily kill another of the squishier classes. I've seen it happen both against enemy teams and against myself.
The only helping advice for all you intelligent pro pvpers is play mario and be happy ! other than that with ur pro skills im sure u cant beat a good pvper whether hes a cleric/gf/gwf/cw or tr ...
Those who dont folow stealth build and goes 1 on 1 with gwf/gf/cw gets <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> right and left what bout that ? U know
and afterwards this. You're saying no other TR build can beat GWF, GF or CW in 1v1 - With all the rather powerful dazes and high burst damage you say it is impossible to win them with other builds, is that correct ?
u ppl cry about balance and im sure none of u whiners have fought a single gwf with 7 sloted greater tenebrous that ****s on faster then u can breath but u dont see us qqing about that ... It all realy comes down to this , 1st learn to play , if its too **** difficult just do urself and all other a favor and stop doing it...
There are multiple threads about that, and don't try to say skill in this game is too essential, the "skill cap" is clearly low due to so few abilities and can be easily overwhelmed by gear on most occasions.
@strawbyx Impossible to catch, stealth and cloud of steal. This needs to be nerfed as soon as possible. No need for the pointless video to stroke your own ego by the way.
I'll sum up your response: You can Line of sight, therefore there is nothing wrong with me being immune to crowd control, being able to attack while in stealth and being able to do incredible amounts of damage with cloud of steal... if you don't like it, hide.
I need a more professional response than this please
I can smell the desperation for them not to nerf your imbalanced class in your response by the way. ITC, Stealth + CoS. Nerf it, there is no need for them to work together like that and yes, having any ranged damage to follow up after CoS will be enough to finish off the target. Stop being pathetic.
FFS why do you noobs keep whining about this kind of thing, thief stealth is the least of the problems pvp has at level cap; all your crying is actually due to the insanely high damage everyone does at level cap, the stupidly OP enchants, and the super fast TTK. Any class that is well geared is going to three shot you if they get the drop on you.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
...
If you stay you die. If you run you are "staying away."
It's a no contest surrender forced by the mere fact there is an invisible rogue on the point.
If you stay you die. If you run you are "staying away."
It's a no contest surrender forced by the mere fact there is an invisible rogue on the point.
...
try to think abit further then just to the next window and learn to play...or cry for nerfs, seems easier
i mean really, you are just posting unrealistic scenarios to proove something while there is so much you can do to avoid those situations you blatantly ignore
another protip: CoS does more damage when you get hit over and over in the same channel...avoid that and you will survive...but i know, using tactics is hard these days
All those other games that insisted that attacking in any form broke stealth; I suppose I see why now. Perhaps that wheel needs to be reinvented here as well. Neverwinter has certainly become a case study of which other companies should take note.
Logged on my TR to test CoS. 24k - 35k on dummy in 5 seconds in stealth with 12 daggers & Executioner build. 8.9k gs. I know the dummies are on zero defense but with my current gear I got 21% arp which negates other players damage mitigation by quite a bit. That damage output is just insane - if I start the knife spam near the target, he has to either spend all his energy to flee or just stay and eat all or most of the damage while trying to desperately find me, if he gets close I just daze him, LB & finish him.
TRs do already huge damage at melee range, why are they so hard hitting with ranged attacks too ?
TRs do already huge damage at melee range, why are they so hard hitting with ranged attacks too ?
cause they are glasscannons
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
Every scenario has happened and quite often.
Any rogue that builds in the style that is complained about within this thread will kill 1-2 CW/DC just by using daggers unless they are CC'ed before they reach dagger range. It happens all the time and the only counter once stealth is initiated is to run.
Instead of ignorantly telling me to learn to play inform me of what can be done to counter the attack besides running or stopping them from getting within range. Frankly at this point my patience is just about gone and I'm assuming you just don't want it changed because you are a rogue who enjoys the unfair advantage.
Whether I die or am chased out of the area that is a guaranteed win for the enemy team. Period. End of story.
If you really want to prove how bad I am then please by all means supply me with the counter which will not result in my death or surrender because either outcomes are overpowered. Nothing any other class brings and nothing the rogue ever had before couldn't be countered except by running which isn't a counter. Anything short of that is just an excuse and a misdirection to avoid that this is an issue.
Edit - Stealth is meant as a defense mechanism which is why it doesn't get removed on hit. It's supposed to give you an edge to improve the glass cannon being shattered instantly. If they wanted players attacking nonstop while stealthed melee attacks wouldn't result in a shadow. It's not meant to be a guaranteed kill from CoS on a key target or two.
We need at least 22 more Rogue nerfs. I think GF's should have a movement speed buff naturally. They should be able to run faster in general. We are guardians should be running around guarding. Also more Guard meter by like 50% thx.
I feel like these threads are all about rogues with insane enchantments or something, because I'm certainly not killing 2 control wizards with an at-will limited by 12 charges. But I'm going to be the one with even less survivability against wizards once all this whining reaches the developers' ears. First the complaints were about the dailies being too strong, then it was about the encounters being too strong, then it was about rogue at-wills being too strong outside of stealth, now it's about rogue at-wills being too strong within stealth. It never ends!
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
6 daggers is enough to kill a squishier(possibly freshl L60) CW or DC. That's around 2 to 3 secs for them to get out of your 60' range. Not gonna happen. GWF might be able to with sprint and higher defense, GF can't really move so they have to block the whole barrage, which will break guard and leave them open for a three shot finisher.
Having CoS break stealth after 3 knives would possibly help, while leaving it as a strong ability, provided you exploit the terrain to get the rest of the knives off.
RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
Walk out of range. Oh great idea because he's not also dashing to be as close to me as possible as I run. They have speed boosts from stealth and the daggers will likely effect my movement speed based on their feats.
Just a great idea. Why didn't I think of it? Oh that's right because that's exactly what I said is the only option and that it often results in death despite running and at the very least will get you out of the fight which again results in a huge advantage for the other team.
Come on, stop going in circles. Either way that is a severely overpowered ability to force two of the key team fight classes to run instantly.
Yeah if you manage to survive passed the stealth chances are that TR will die fast...common sense. The thing is if he's a halfway decent rogue you won't get away or he won't be stupid enough to chase you further than he needs to.
Perma stealth rogue builds in PvP are worthless! You hurt your team more than you are helping because your dmg is **** and you can't cap a point. You can't afford to take damage and any good player when facing a perma stealth TR will just add an AoE ability to pull you out of stealth and then you are dead.
On my GF, I just add Enforced Threat and poof I see you and you die!
So do your team a favor and stop running the pug stomp build and run something that actually helps your team burst players down and cap.
Walk out of range. Oh great idea because he's not also dashing to be as close to me as possible as I run. They have speed boosts from stealth and the daggers will likely effect my movement speed based on their feats.
Executioner rogues don't have that feat, and they are by far the most popular type of rogue there is. Also you can't run while throwing knives. A rogue has to stop using the at-will in order to chase after you.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
6 daggers is enough to kill a squishier(possibly freshl L60) CW or DC. That's around 2 to 3 secs for them to get out of your 60' range. Not gonna happen. GWF might be able to with sprint and higher defense, GF can't really move so they have to block the whole barrage, which will break guard and leave them open for a three shot finisher.
Having CoS break stealth after 3 knives would possibly help, while leaving it as a strong ability, provided you exploit the terrain to get the rest of the knives off.
Exploit the terrain? What the hell are you talking about? 3 knives is not enough to do anything, and stealth should not be broken from at-wills under any circumstances. It completely breaks the class.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Exploit the terrain? What the hell are you talking about? 3 knives is not enough to do anything, and stealth should not be broken from at-wills under any circumstances. It completely breaks the class.
Bridge and bridge platforms are a nice example. Throw knives from there. Utterly wreaked my team a few times.
Bridge and bridge platforms are a nice example. Throw knives from there. Utterly wreaked my team a few times.
So, you should have to be on a bridge for your at-will ability to be able to kill someone? Do you realize how backwards that idea is?
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
Jump and shoot is apparently a way to speed that up just a bit.
Plus if you're going Stealth Rogue you should be using at least some of the Saboteur Feats. At the very least you should probably be mixing feats. Speed Swindle is a first tier feat and well worth throwing some points in if you are planning on building around stealth.
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thats rock paper scissors, no need to nerf rock just cause you happen to be scissors
<No Memes>
You're another one of those guys that I only see really bright and intelligent posts from! Keep up the grrrrreat work at being really smart man! Cheers! :rolleyes:
never, no1 mmo can't be balanced so much as "rock-paper-scissors".Only 1 value gamer can upgrade - SKILL.
In fact the only one at this point in time with the specific build which is complained about in this thread which can possible stand up to the Stealth CoS combo is a Guardian Fighter or another rogue who can counter by going in stealth.
I haven't heard any GWF comments on the TR Stealth and CoS but I know it's completely uncountable by me and the only chance CW's have is to CC and burst them down before they ever get a chance to activate stealth.
If rogues were truly balanced correctly the Rock Paper Scissiors comments would hold up because one class would just destroy the rogue but right now the rogue can kill two obscenely quickly with no risk, kill one with at least moderate difficulty, stalemate against itself and possibly get beaten by a GF if their guard meter can stand against the barrage.
It's more like the kids who start wiggling their fingers and making blowing/growling sounds saying "Lava beats everything!"
and the only chance TRs have is to stealth and burst the CW, GWF, GF down befor they ever get the chance to get any CC on you
thats the definition of balanced (kinda)
whats up with the forums? my post always gets eaten
- Don't use special characters. Basic ASCII Only. Posts Merged.
as i said numerous times now: the problem isnt that TR is overpowered, the Problem is that people dont know how to play against it
if you have noticed, in your post its not CoS that is killing your CW, its ItC that is needed to break your 100% > 0 Stunlock...and on GWF and GF ItC doesnt even work!
rock paper scissors, you know (actually lizard and spock too since its 5 classes, but meh)
Those who dont folow stealth build and goes 1 on 1 with gwf/gf/cw gets <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> right and left what bout that ? U know
u ppl cry about balance and im sure none of u whiners have fought a single gwf with 7 sloted greater tenebrous that ****s on faster then u can breath but u dont see us qqing about that ... It all realy comes down to this , 1st learn to play , if its too **** difficult just do urself and all other a favor and stop doing it...
I think things will go so chaotic once gaunt is implemented, what u guys gona do if u run on 20 gfs ? think u can handle the 20 shild bashes ? or 20 stealth tr ? or 10 clerics ? Seriously guys learn to use other classes weakness to ur strength or no nerf can help u win.
Let the darkness prevail ,,For I rise from there ..
Only if the rogue HAS itc, which would take the place of better silencing/damaging skills. If he doesn't have ITC, then he's dead, because CW damage is insane for a "control" class, and there is still not enough meaningful diminishing returns on their abilities. If CoS are nerfed again, then Control Wizards dam well better be next in the line. Any CW who dies to a ranged attack with limited charges is bad. Especially when they have more escapability than the frickin' "rogue" class for some reason.
You're thinking of Shocking Execution which has a 30' range.
Trickster Rogue Powers.
While shorter than CW or DC 80' Range attacks those attacks don't do much good when a TR can simply stealth into range and chunk them down.
Key thing to remember is that the ability either forces a death or forces a complete retreat because staying will always result in death. There's no dodging or countering once the rogue is in stealth. No chance to survive save for running away.
And running = loss of point = loss of game.
I'm not the best PvPer but I'm certainly not the worst. All of you have said "play better" but have yet to supply any means to counter the attacks once it starts. Rogues can certainly two hit me with the right combination and a bit of luck on their encounter powers but nothing is intended to grant rogues one hit kills and in essence that's what some of you are saying. The counter is to kill them before they ever even begin to attack otherwise you're dead and then it's your fault.
That's fine and dandy. I do it all the time when possible.
But that is not a valid argument or tactic. That's just common sense. Guaranteed kills with no counters save kill them before they come within range are not intended.
PinkFont - The issue is that the escapability is all but gone once the rogue is in stealth and within 60'. If you can get away it's purely because the rogue is bad.
Being forced to run before the fight even begins is the problem. Binds will kill them but stealth can all but guarantee a kill, two or three. The knives alone can kill 1-2 CW easily. If they can also get in range of encounters they can easily kill another of the squishier classes. I've seen it happen both against enemy teams and against myself.
It's so hilarious to see you say this...
and afterwards this. You're saying no other TR build can beat GWF, GF or CW in 1v1 - With all the rather powerful dazes and high burst damage you say it is impossible to win them with other builds, is that correct ?
There are multiple threads about that, and don't try to say skill in this game is too essential, the "skill cap" is clearly low due to so few abilities and can be easily overwhelmed by gear on most occasions.
and this is an example why there are so many learn to play answers
protip: you dont lose the point by going away, you lose it by staying away
FFS why do you noobs keep whining about this kind of thing, thief stealth is the least of the problems pvp has at level cap; all your crying is actually due to the insanely high damage everyone does at level cap, the stupidly OP enchants, and the super fast TTK. Any class that is well geared is going to three shot you if they get the drop on you.
If you stay you die. If you run you are "staying away."
It's a no contest surrender forced by the mere fact there is an invisible rogue on the point.
...
i mean really, you are just posting unrealistic scenarios to proove something while there is so much you can do to avoid those situations you blatantly ignore
another protip: CoS does more damage when you get hit over and over in the same channel...avoid that and you will survive...but i know, using tactics is hard these days
jep, cause the devs always cater to the crybabies
Go fig.
TRs do already huge damage at melee range, why are they so hard hitting with ranged attacks too ?
Any rogue that builds in the style that is complained about within this thread will kill 1-2 CW/DC just by using daggers unless they are CC'ed before they reach dagger range. It happens all the time and the only counter once stealth is initiated is to run.
Instead of ignorantly telling me to learn to play inform me of what can be done to counter the attack besides running or stopping them from getting within range. Frankly at this point my patience is just about gone and I'm assuming you just don't want it changed because you are a rogue who enjoys the unfair advantage.
Whether I die or am chased out of the area that is a guaranteed win for the enemy team. Period. End of story.
If you really want to prove how bad I am then please by all means supply me with the counter which will not result in my death or surrender because either outcomes are overpowered. Nothing any other class brings and nothing the rogue ever had before couldn't be countered except by running which isn't a counter. Anything short of that is just an excuse and a misdirection to avoid that this is an issue.
Edit - Stealth is meant as a defense mechanism which is why it doesn't get removed on hit. It's supposed to give you an edge to improve the glass cannon being shattered instantly. If they wanted players attacking nonstop while stealthed melee attacks wouldn't result in a shadow. It's not meant to be a guaranteed kill from CoS on a key target or two.
see, thats how easy it is
but again, asking for nerfs is always more easy then learning the game yourself, i know that
Having CoS break stealth after 3 knives would possibly help, while leaving it as a strong ability, provided you exploit the terrain to get the rest of the knives off.
Just a great idea. Why didn't I think of it? Oh that's right because that's exactly what I said is the only option and that it often results in death despite running and at the very least will get you out of the fight which again results in a huge advantage for the other team.
Come on, stop going in circles. Either way that is a severely overpowered ability to force two of the key team fight classes to run instantly.
Yeah if you manage to survive passed the stealth chances are that TR will die fast...common sense. The thing is if he's a halfway decent rogue you won't get away or he won't be stupid enough to chase you further than he needs to.
On my GF, I just add Enforced Threat and poof I see you and you die!
So do your team a favor and stop running the pug stomp build and run something that actually helps your team burst players down and cap.
--FOTM--Perma Stealth is bad!
Executioner rogues don't have that feat, and they are by far the most popular type of rogue there is. Also you can't run while throwing knives. A rogue has to stop using the at-will in order to chase after you.
Exploit the terrain? What the hell are you talking about? 3 knives is not enough to do anything, and stealth should not be broken from at-wills under any circumstances. It completely breaks the class.
Bridge and bridge platforms are a nice example. Throw knives from there. Utterly wreaked my team a few times.
So, you should have to be on a bridge for your at-will ability to be able to kill someone? Do you realize how backwards that idea is?
Plus if you're going Stealth Rogue you should be using at least some of the Saboteur Feats. At the very least you should probably be mixing feats. Speed Swindle is a first tier feat and well worth throwing some points in if you are planning on building around stealth.