And if you, as a stealth rogue who - mostly - refrains from using ItC get caught off guard by ANY class, CWs/GFs in particular, you're nothing but a dangling punching bag. And die within two hits.
As opposed to any other squishy class/builds with abilities on cooldown?
Hmmmm I'll bite! So you want to nerf all rogues because some specific builds with high level chants do to much dmg with CoS. Let me guess You play a CW and haven't figured out aoe and I out range rogue kiting for the win?
Every class in this game except cleric can be turned into a pvp killing machine with the right gear, chants, and spec(feats and powers).
The cleric while not being a smack down king is the one class all good pvp teams want at least one of. I really do not see the issue, can you show me where the evil cloaked figure touched you?
There is absolutely zero justification for this and it is nothing short of amateur logic by amateur devs. I need a reply from a dev as soon as possible on this and I NEED to know the reasoning behind this ridiculous amount of damage while stealthed and whether or not they will drastically change this in the future.
Also, endless knockdowns by GF's is out of control, put a DR on that FFS.
This guy is a _________ . If you don't know how to counter such thing then you cry for nerf? OMG how ****. TR are like a piece of ____ now. They were so easy to counter.
There's three ways to do things, the right way, the wrong way and the way that I do it.
Hmmmm I'll bite! So you want to nerf all rogues because some specific builds with high level chants do to much dmg with CoS. Let me guess You play a CW and haven't figured out aoe and I out range rogue kiting for the win?
Yes because rogues can't just dodge away from a CW's shield, oppressive force, ice storm, or singularity. Oh look a green glowy CW is putting me in range of his pbaoe. I'll just stand here and not dodge away or use bait and switch to gain AP while evading + replenishing stealth. Or is it that CW's need to spec more pbaoe abilities like steal time and icy terrain. Or maybe you mean shard of the endless avalanche because that's a really good aoe ability. :rolleyes: Once again my statement of people defending this holds true.
Jack - Just how much nerf TR before we kill the TR class? To be fair, I know it is not just you with TR concerns. I can also understand ambishisterr point on clouds of steel. A possible trade off on that one is, this skill takes you out of stealth. A good rogue can handle this. I’d rather not see it changed at all. Yes, I hated Rogues for a time years ago, and then I became one.
Now that I have that out of the way, the real reason for my posting. I hope you don’t take this the wrong way and this can apply to anyone, not just you and for a long time myself.
I was an extreme PVP player to what appears to the point your posting are showing now. I can visualize a lot of key smashing and blood pressure going through the roof while you’re writing your replies. I hope this isn't the case. I am speaking from experience. If it gets you this worked up, maybe PVE and Foundry only, is the better way to go. Why can I say this, I was where you appear to be at years ago in WOW and Aion. While my heart issues are related to other stresses, I see a lot of stress building here. Its not worth it, your health is more important than this. Over time it will take its toll on you. Again, “I know this from experience.” I have yet to PVP in any game for several years now, knowing I get just like this. I really hope this isn't the case. Please be careful.
Yes because rogues can't just dodge away from a CW's shield, oppressive force, ice storm, or singularity. Oh look a green glowy CW is putting me in range of his pbaoe. I'll just stand here and not dodge away or use bait and switch to gain AP while evading + replenishing stealth. Or is it that CW's need to spec more pbaoe abilities like steal time and icy terrain. Or maybe you mean shard of the endless avalanche because that's a really good aoe ability. :rolleyes: Once again my statement of people defending this holds true.
Jack - Just how much nerf TR before we kill the TR class? To be fair, I know it is not just you with TR concerns. I can also understand ambishisterr point on clouds of steel. A possible trade off on that one is, this skill takes you out of stealth. A good rogue can handle this. I’d rather not see it changed at all. Yes, I hated Rogues for a time years ago, and then I became one.
Now that I have that out of the way, the real reason for my posting. I hope you don’t take this the wrong way and this can apply to anyone, not just you and for a long time myself.
I was an extreme PVP player to what appears to the point your posting are showing now. I can visualize a lot of key smashing and blood pressure going through the roof while you’re writing your replies. I hope this isn't the case. I am speaking from experience. If it gets you this worked up, maybe PVE and Foundry only, is the better way to go. Why can I say this, I was where you appear to be at years ago in WOW and Aion. While my heart issues are related to other stresses, I see a lot of stress building here. Its not worth it, your health is more important than this. Over time it will take its toll on you. Again, “I know this from experience.” I have yet to PVP in any game for several years now, knowing I get just like this. I really hope this isn't the case. Please be careful.
using cloud of steel should burn through stealth at a very fast rate. Simple fix.
I can't believe that I don't see more of this build -right gear and its gg
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
Thread has been cleansed again.
Keep the insults out of the discussion. Disagree with respect or don't post please.
using cloud of steel should burn through stealth at a very fast rate. Simple fix.
I can't believe that I don't see more of this build -right gear and its gg
I had the unfortunate experience of meeting a team with two rogues running this build. One was running greater vorpal. Painful experience, even though the final score(1000:750ish to opposition) wouldn't suggest it, two players on my team dropped within 3 mins.
Their main strat? Stealth when I was visible, CoS and then SE if I was still alive.
Dying 15 times in a game was...boring.
RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
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maiku217Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
People just need to adapt.. I was shocked at first when I first saw this build in action and perfected by Invisibility in Lemonade Stand. I can't even see where he is and my guard would be nommed with my hp on 1/4 left then duelist furried. I thought.. wow, awesome how he could rebuild his character after nerf.. huge props to all TRs that rebuilt their pvp while still holding on to some pve (maybe). I haven't played many other classes but luckily I have a 60 TR. Got on.. theorycrafted a bit to finally find a nice setup to combat this build.
Just to wait until I meet him again in a premade.
I completely understand where you're coming from, Jackmehandy. As a Stealth-Based TR, in PVP, I find Cloud of Steel to be one of my major sources of damage. It has 12 charges, but completely enough to shred the HP of a squishy class like TR's, CW's, and even DC's. The best part is I can get away with it as I tend to maximize the duration of my stealth. One of the things that make it powerful is its ability to further increase its damage whenever we concentrate on one target alone. Even better when it crits, and when we are using Lurker's Assault.
I find it powerful for an early level At-Will, but not entirely OP. The skill has its limitations such as range and charges, and otherwise takes a LOT of time to recharge for us to be able to fully rely on it for DPS. But I absolutely cannot deny that it's very useful in shredding the HP bars of squishy classes, the classes that I usually target for kills. But all of these are issues that only appear in PVP. In PVE, I do not know of any rogues who use Cloud of Steel. It's a horrible choice for a PVE at-will as it is highly limited and does too little damage to make any difference.
If Cloud of Steel needs to be nerfed for the sake of happier players, then I'm going to have to agree with this. But Stealth, on the other hand, should remain untouched as it is the class mechanic that defines what we do and who we are.
Some suggestions I have in mind for a Cloud of Steel "fix" that may be able to retain its usefulness/purpose while still giving it a more balanced approach are as follows.
1. Remove the damage increase per stack mechanic of the skill. Just the raw damage it does should be fine for a ranged at-will. It would, however, be great if we got a 10% damage increase for the skill in return.
2. Increase the timer for the charges by 4 seconds per charge. This way it'll take us 48 seconds to have a full stack of CoS. 12 seconds longer than usual which will make TR's choose more wisely as to how and who we use it on in PVP.
And I completely agree with theshadowlives. This is an issue that doesn't need to be stressful for anyone. It would be best if everyone just laid down their points and discussed things in a civil manner, without resorting to ad hominem remarks.
And I completely agree with theshadowlives. This is an issue that doesn't need to be stressful for anyone. It would be best if everyone just laid down their points and discussed things in a civil manner, without resorting to ad hominem remarks.
Thanks, can't see why my reply was removed. It wasn't insulting and I really have stress related heart issues (Atrial Fibrillation). Trying to be helpful from experience. Can't even get a message to the Moderator for clarification. Not accepting messages.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
Often if I see a response to something which is a violation direct violation I just chain them together. They might not all be horrible most times if you're replying to a violating post your post will become "out of place" if I just remove the quotation. I read basically everything but when somethings 'no way this will remain' I often just remove anything which quotes it as if responding to that comment.
Your post has been restored. In the future just send me a PM if I do that. I'm happy to look it over again and restore it if you want.
I found your comment very insightful todesfaelle. I still feel rogues shouldn't be able to throw knives and burst down control wizards and often times clerics while in stealth but honestly I don't feel the stealth is a major issue outside that.
Rogues have some strong powers but most can be countered with a dodge or smart gameplay. For those who play League of Legends though stealthed rogues using throwing knives reminds me of late game Ashe. You can't attack her and you can run. You have no choice but to take the damage. Ashe is balanced due to a number of factors but rogues on the other hand are just too effective in eliminating key targets with stealth + knives.
I actually found rogues fairly easy to kill 1v1 as a cleric last week. Now if I see a rogue and I try to 1v1 I am lucky if I can do anything besides run around like a chicken with my head caught off. It's quite literally stealth and a bunch of knives doing 1-3K damage to my face per hit. I die before stealth even wears off.
I'm fine with dieing to rogues. I'm fine with rogues hurting others a lot. I'm fine with them remaining in stealth.
I'm just not fine with being killed and having literally nothing I can do about it. I can't use chains and snare them even if I have an idea where there are. They are likely out of my sunburst range and the damage will eat right through shield.
Some of you say the true issue in enchants. Well it could be I'm not sure. All I do know is that when 2 Control Wizards and a Devoted Cleric get burst down from full HP to dead before we even see the rogue there's a bit of a problem.
So you play a cleric... I bet Laudon1 from Lemonade Stand via Dragon Shard... Ha ha! :cool: It all fits now... Deleting this will only confirm it for me and strengthen my resolve, Zach.! :rolleyes:
There is absolutely zero justification for this and it is nothing short of amateur logic by amateur devs. I need a reply from a dev as soon as possible on this and I NEED to know the reasoning behind this ridiculous amount of damage while stealthed and whether or not they will drastically change this in the future.
Also, endless knockdowns by GF's is out of control, put a DR on that FFS.
This is an ARPGMMO , learn to dodge and position yourself better . Now have a nice day .
No, it is not simply a first strike game and if that is your way of thinking, you need some serious counseling. Bonus points if you can list the defensive abilities for each class <--- consider the generally obvious before you even think of typing "whoever gets first strike, wins".
@pinkfont, no, just no. Balancing game play is key kid, I'm not even going to elaborate the importance of this to you.
To throw this back at you, figure out how the rogues doing this are doing so much damage, it's not Cloud of steel 'kid' it's greater tenebrous enchants. I use cloud of steel from stealth, I soften up a target, if I don't have those enchants equipped I can't finish the job I can run the full ranged rogue, impact shots cloud of steel and path of blades but you're not all stealth all the time doing that.
crying about something that has a 36 second cool down which is likely the longest cd for any power of any class. yeah i understand you're salty because you died while being unable to defend yourself, so what? cws 100-0 you using CC with or without tenebs at miles away and dps fighters chain CC you 100-0 with or without tenebs.
the difference is that cws and fighters do it with CC while rogues finish the job in stealth. 12 stacks of Cos has a total of 36s cd in comparison to the shorter cooldowns of the cw/fighters encounter powers, so all in all, it's pretty much fair except for the fact that GFs can run trains on squishies because of their super short cooldowns.
"OH BUT TRS ALSO HAVE 3 ENCOUNTER POWERS AVAILABLE FOR USE.. WAAA WAAA" - btw, most if not all rogues have at least 1-2 defensive encounters slotted in and do you know why? it's to defend ourselves against the massive amounts of CC that we do not have.
so i've come to the conclusion that all classes are strong (Except for clerics because of the massive nerfs to their heals but i've seen some really good post-patch clerics that hold their own and i've no experience with DCs personally so maybe i shouldn't comment on that) ALL classes are relatively strong in their own way, there was never a consensus that GF/GWFS were weak, i personally know a few Gf/Gwfs and they did super well in pvp pre-patch and they even admit it that their class was never weak to begin with it's just the carebears that don't know how to play their class and whine all day on the forums
crying about something that has a 36 second cool down which is likely the longest cd for any power of any class. yeah i understand you're salty because you died while being unable to defend yourself, so what? cws 100-0 you using CC with or without tenebs at miles away and dps fighters chain CC you 100-0 with or without tenebs.
the difference is that cws and fighters do it with CC while rogues finish the job in stealth. 12 stacks of Cos has a total of 36s cd in comparison to the shorter cooldowns of the cw/fighters encounter powers, so all in all, it's pretty much fair except for the fact that GFs can run trains on squishies because of their super short cooldowns.
"OH BUT TRS ALSO HAVE 3 ENCOUNTER POWERS AVAILABLE FOR USE.. WAAA WAAA" - btw, most if not all rogues have at least 1-2 defensive encounters slotted in and do you know why? it's to defend ourselves against the massive amounts of CC that we do not have.
so i've come to the conclusion that all classes are strong (Except for clerics because of the massive nerfs to their heals but i've seen some really good post-patch clerics that hold their own and i've no experience with DCs personally so maybe i shouldn't comment on that) ALL classes are relatively strong in their own way, there was never a consensus that GF/GWFS were weak, i personally know a few Gf/Gwfs and they did super well in pvp pre-patch and they even admit it that their class was never weak to begin with it's just the carebears that don't know how to play their class and whine all day on the forums
So another person attempting to defend the build, but only making themselves look not very intelligent. So as a rogue after you use up your 12 stacks of CoS, do you sit there and wait the full 36s before using it again? Because last time I checked they recharged 1 every 3 seconds. The problem being discussed isn't solely on CoS. It's the rogues ability to maintain stealth and damage through 2 encounters and also a daily. Sure other classes use CC and kill, but their CC has its limits and can be countered easily. Being stealthed 15-20s+ all the while being able to do ranged damage is not easily countered and for some classes their only counter is LoS or running.
Judging from your post, you're probably not the most experienced with the rogue and haven't quite experienced just how overly effective an end game rogue with this spec can be. Perhaps you should leave the discussion to the folks with a bit more understanding.
Every time when u try "fix" rogue, u just let them reason for better learn class and find other way to dmg. becouse this is TRICKSTER rogue. So l2p and stop crying.
Every time when u try "fix" rogue, u just let them reason for better learn class and find other way to dmg. becouse this is TRICKSTER rogue. So l2p and stop crying.
p.s. Cloud of steel have range, use u'r head
Another genius response in its defense. This was an issue before any attempted fixes. It's only becoming more mainstreamed as more players try it out and embrace its mindless cheesiness.. Yes it does have range but TR's also have 30% movement speed in stealth with sneak attack, 10% run reduction on crit on target +10% run speed buff from speed swindle, +10% stealth bar on dodge with sneaky stabber. They can chase pretty easily, not to mention jumping and using CoS allows for a bit more movement while DPS'n. It's not a L2p issue... it's a this is currently a bit OP issue..
So another person attempting to defend the build, but only making themselves look not very intelligent. So as a rogue after you use up your 12 stacks of CoS, do you sit there and wait the full 36s before using it again? Because last time I checked they recharged 1 every 3 seconds. The problem being discussed isn't solely on CoS. It's the rogues ability to maintain stealth and damage through 2 encounters and also a daily. Sure other classes use CC and kill, but their CC has its limits and can be countered easily. Being stealthed 15-20s+ all the while being able to do ranged damage is not easily countered and for some classes their only counter is LoS or running.
Judging from your post, you're probably not the most experienced with the rogue and haven't quite experienced just how overly effective an end game rogue with this spec can be. Perhaps you should leave the discussion to the folks with a bit more understanding.
this is where your logic fails horribly, yeah CoS recharges 1 every 3 seconds so it'll take the rogue AT LEAST 5-7 charges until you start doing any noticeable damage unless you're trying to tell me 1 or 2 daggers will drain your entire hp bar. and fyi the 2 encounters you mentioned are shadow strike and bait and switch, so like i said it'll take at least 5-7 charges until you do noticeable damage which is 21 seconds. CC has its limits? please elaborate what you mean by limits, if you're talking about ItC then theoretically that rogue's encounter set up would be shadow strike + bait and switch + ItC and if your premade (assuming you don't have one since you're here crying about an at-will ability) is losing to a team with a rogue with that type of set up than you're a bunch of terrible players and were likely outplayed by the enemy team. the only thing i have to say to you is l2p your class instead of crying for nerfs on the forums because it only makes you look bad
perma stealth spec is not viable in premade v premade, what's the use of a perma stealth spec relying solely on CoS during a 5v5 team fight? here's a little tip for you and your group(if you have one)... if the perma stealth rogue's role is to simply backcap enemy base than you can counter it by simply ignoring him while he's capping your home and your team can 5 man zerg mid then cap their home point while your team spawn camps. you guys might need to have a bit of coordination and be capable of winning that 5v4 at mid, 5 being in your favor. see? if you actually used your head and learned to play you wouldn't be here crying, i assume you're mad because some rogue in a pug kept destroying you in stealth than perhaps you should find a group of people to play with, i can re-direct you to the guild recruitment section if you like, you just need to get out of that hard head and try to adapt.
edit: P.S I know my class very well more than you'd imagine
Kaenerys - Mindflayer - TR
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
Running in circles to dodge attacks I'm A-Okay with. That's part of the game anyway.
However if the only "counter" for a CW and a DC to rogues going stealth and peppering them with knives is "Run away as far as you can, as fast as you can" then there's a slight issue here even above and beong whether it's "OP" or not.
Neverwinter's PvP is all about controlling points. You don't win based on kills or how many times you steal points, you win based on how long you control points. In order to control a point you need to keep within a general vicinity. If you are running as far and as fast as you can because the only other alternative as a CW or DC is to get killed there's a major advantage gained just by forcing somebody out of a fight.
Forcing people out of a fight in a great tactic. You'll see it in games like LoL. If you at least maim somebody so they have to leave the fight it puts your team in a good position but normally you have to at least hit them a few times to send them running.
Currently it's more like this for CW's and DC, "The rogue went invisible RUN!!!!" This is because the damage output is high enough to kill 2-3 of them in a single stealth burst depending on gear scores. It's basically guaranteed to kill one unless the rogue is just god awful.
And when CW's/Dc's are forced to run like that, before any fights can even begin, the rest of the team is left in a huge disadvantage and it's all because of one certain skill combination.
Rogues need to be viable! I know that full well and will defend that rogues need to remain stealthed while in combat because that is their only true defense...
But they can't send both CW's and DC's running for the hills just because they went into stealth.
**Another note: When rogues are in stealth and they get within melee range a "shadow" of their image is created so you can dodge and avoid their abilities. Stealth is not meant to be guaranteed hits like CoS is permitting. Heck I'd be happy if the shadow is created every time they throw a knife so the DC and Cw can do something while getting pelted.
Currently it's more like this for CW's and DC, "The rogue went invisible RUN!!!!"
and its exactly the same when a CW, GWF or GF is approaching...so better nerf them too, right?
your words
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
I don't fear any other class as a DC. I won't win anything 1v1 anymore but I can at least dodge or hold them down.
Control Wizards can be nasty but if I have an ally nearby and the CW focuses on me chances are my ally is going to start messing with the CW. With a stealthed rogue the only thing that can be done is me running and leaving my ally behind which is hopefully a GF who has some chance of withstanding the barrage.
The difference comes down to how positioning can win fights. I can dodge GF's and GWF's all day in most casts. I can at least have allies help contend with CW's who decide to mess up my day...but when a rogue goes into stealth with the intention of simply throwing daggers the only positioning which will make a difference is if I leave town.
Stealth could be renamed to "Teleport One CW and One DC out of the fight for 20-30 seconds"
Is that wording a bit more clearer to the true power of the combination?
The other classes are fine. Heck the rogue is fine outside of the fact that CoS is completely uncountable short of CW's and DC's leaving the fight and often end up dead just trying to leave.
My main is a lvl60 Saboteur feated TR, 9kish gearscore from PvP gear and such. I also play an oppressor based lvl60 CW and am slowly leveling up the other three classes in the meantime. I'm not a great PvP player but I think I get by.... so much for my credentials.
I Love CoS for solo PvE and it's an absolute must for PvP as it is now. But the reasoning for that is completely opposite. In PvE I use it to weaken the opponents coming AT me. In PvP I use it on stationary opponents but most specifically on those running AWAY. It only takes 5 featpoints to make it into a snare, which doesn't really do much in PvE IMO, but is incredibly efficient in PvP.
A 30s full recharge time is meaningless in PvP, when I can just stealth up and lurk someplace safe for a while. In PvE I'll still get hunted.
I really don't want to lose it for PvE, but as it is now, it's just too powerful for PvP. Either you get shredded because your gearscore is not 11k+, or because the TR spent an (exploited) fortune on runes.
IMO it's the combination of staying in stealth and using a ranged attack. When a TR engages in melee he's at least somewhat visible and targetable, not so with CoS, and I think that's the main problem.
I hate to propose a nerf to my own favorite class, but diminishing return on stealth the same way as with melee, or just flat damage and move the snare feat further along the paragon tree.... I could live with something like that, and IMO would be more sporting.
this is where your logic fails horribly, yeah CoS recharges 1 every 3 seconds so it'll take the rogue AT LEAST 5-7 charges until you start doing any noticeable damage unless you're trying to tell me 1 or 2 daggers will drain your entire hp bar. and fyi the 2 encounters you mentioned are shadow strike and bait and switch, so like i said it'll take at least 5-7 charges until you do noticeable damage which is 21 seconds. CC has its limits? please elaborate what you mean by limits, if you're talking about ItC then theoretically that rogue's encounter set up would be shadow strike + bait and switch + ItC and if your premade (assuming you don't have one since you're here crying about an at-will ability) is losing to a team with a rogue with that type of set up than you're a bunch of terrible players and were likely outplayed by the enemy team. the only thing i have to say to you is l2p your class instead of crying for nerfs on the forums because it only makes you look bad
perma stealth spec is not viable in premade v premade, what's the use of a perma stealth spec relying solely on CoS during a 5v5 team fight? here's a little tip for you and your group(if you have one)... if the perma stealth rogue's role is to simply backcap enemy base than you can counter it by simply ignoring him while he's capping your home and your team can 5 man zerg mid then cap their home point while your team spawn camps. you guys might need to have a bit of coordination and be capable of winning that 5v4 at mid, 5 being in your favor. see? if you actually used your head and learned to play you wouldn't be here crying, i assume you're mad because some rogue in a pug kept destroying you in stealth than perhaps you should find a group of people to play with, i can re-direct you to the guild recruitment section if you like, you just need to get out of that hard head and try to adapt.
edit: P.S I know my class very well more than you'd imagine
Perhaps you should read more of the thread.. there's no point in arguing with the ignorant.
Comments
As opposed to any other squishy class/builds with abilities on cooldown?
Every class in this game except cleric can be turned into a pvp killing machine with the right gear, chants, and spec(feats and powers).
The cleric while not being a smack down king is the one class all good pvp teams want at least one of. I really do not see the issue, can you show me where the evil cloaked figure touched you?
yep we kill craps rogues but my well geared CW is starting to see some rogues with cloud and impact shot throw in CC immunity and its lots of fun
Those nerfs have hit hard especially when you get a rogue out dpsing you at range.
This guy is a _________ . If you don't know how to counter such thing then you cry for nerf? OMG how ****. TR are like a piece of ____ now. They were so easy to counter.
Yes because rogues can't just dodge away from a CW's shield, oppressive force, ice storm, or singularity. Oh look a green glowy CW is putting me in range of his pbaoe. I'll just stand here and not dodge away or use bait and switch to gain AP while evading + replenishing stealth. Or is it that CW's need to spec more pbaoe abilities like steal time and icy terrain. Or maybe you mean shard of the endless avalanche because that's a really good aoe ability. :rolleyes: Once again my statement of people defending this holds true.
Now that I have that out of the way, the real reason for my posting. I hope you don’t take this the wrong way and this can apply to anyone, not just you and for a long time myself.
I was an extreme PVP player to what appears to the point your posting are showing now. I can visualize a lot of key smashing and blood pressure going through the roof while you’re writing your replies. I hope this isn't the case. I am speaking from experience. If it gets you this worked up, maybe PVE and Foundry only, is the better way to go. Why can I say this, I was where you appear to be at years ago in WOW and Aion. While my heart issues are related to other stresses, I see a lot of stress building here. Its not worth it, your health is more important than this. Over time it will take its toll on you. Again, “I know this from experience.” I have yet to PVP in any game for several years now, knowing I get just like this. I really hope this isn't the case. Please be careful.
shard in pvp I don't even know.
using cloud of steel should burn through stealth at a very fast rate. Simple fix.
I can't believe that I don't see more of this build -right gear and its gg
Keep the insults out of the discussion. Disagree with respect or don't post please.
lol, shard anywhere... I don't even know :rolleyes:
I had the unfortunate experience of meeting a team with two rogues running this build. One was running greater vorpal. Painful experience, even though the final score(1000:750ish to opposition) wouldn't suggest it, two players on my team dropped within 3 mins.
Their main strat? Stealth when I was visible, CoS and then SE if I was still alive.
Dying 15 times in a game was...boring.
Just to wait until I meet him again in a premade.
I find it powerful for an early level At-Will, but not entirely OP. The skill has its limitations such as range and charges, and otherwise takes a LOT of time to recharge for us to be able to fully rely on it for DPS. But I absolutely cannot deny that it's very useful in shredding the HP bars of squishy classes, the classes that I usually target for kills. But all of these are issues that only appear in PVP. In PVE, I do not know of any rogues who use Cloud of Steel. It's a horrible choice for a PVE at-will as it is highly limited and does too little damage to make any difference.
If Cloud of Steel needs to be nerfed for the sake of happier players, then I'm going to have to agree with this. But Stealth, on the other hand, should remain untouched as it is the class mechanic that defines what we do and who we are.
Some suggestions I have in mind for a Cloud of Steel "fix" that may be able to retain its usefulness/purpose while still giving it a more balanced approach are as follows.
1. Remove the damage increase per stack mechanic of the skill. Just the raw damage it does should be fine for a ranged at-will. It would, however, be great if we got a 10% damage increase for the skill in return.
2. Increase the timer for the charges by 4 seconds per charge. This way it'll take us 48 seconds to have a full stack of CoS. 12 seconds longer than usual which will make TR's choose more wisely as to how and who we use it on in PVP.
And I completely agree with theshadowlives. This is an issue that doesn't need to be stressful for anyone. It would be best if everyone just laid down their points and discussed things in a civil manner, without resorting to ad hominem remarks.
Thanks, can't see why my reply was removed. It wasn't insulting and I really have stress related heart issues (Atrial Fibrillation). Trying to be helpful from experience. Can't even get a message to the Moderator for clarification. Not accepting messages.
Your post has been restored. In the future just send me a PM if I do that. I'm happy to look it over again and restore it if you want.
I found your comment very insightful todesfaelle. I still feel rogues shouldn't be able to throw knives and burst down control wizards and often times clerics while in stealth but honestly I don't feel the stealth is a major issue outside that.
Rogues have some strong powers but most can be countered with a dodge or smart gameplay. For those who play League of Legends though stealthed rogues using throwing knives reminds me of late game Ashe. You can't attack her and you can run. You have no choice but to take the damage. Ashe is balanced due to a number of factors but rogues on the other hand are just too effective in eliminating key targets with stealth + knives.
I actually found rogues fairly easy to kill 1v1 as a cleric last week. Now if I see a rogue and I try to 1v1 I am lucky if I can do anything besides run around like a chicken with my head caught off. It's quite literally stealth and a bunch of knives doing 1-3K damage to my face per hit. I die before stealth even wears off.
I'm fine with dieing to rogues. I'm fine with rogues hurting others a lot. I'm fine with them remaining in stealth.
I'm just not fine with being killed and having literally nothing I can do about it. I can't use chains and snare them even if I have an idea where there are. They are likely out of my sunburst range and the damage will eat right through shield.
Some of you say the true issue in enchants. Well it could be I'm not sure. All I do know is that when 2 Control Wizards and a Devoted Cleric get burst down from full HP to dead before we even see the rogue there's a bit of a problem.
This is an ARPGMMO , learn to dodge and position yourself better . Now have a nice day .
More genius contribution.. I will, ty..
To throw this back at you, figure out how the rogues doing this are doing so much damage, it's not Cloud of steel 'kid' it's greater tenebrous enchants. I use cloud of steel from stealth, I soften up a target, if I don't have those enchants equipped I can't finish the job I can run the full ranged rogue, impact shots cloud of steel and path of blades but you're not all stealth all the time doing that.
1) PVP Potion of see-invisibility/stealth (Duration=2s, Reuse=12s)
2) PVP Potion of Invulnerability (Duration=2s, Reuse=12s)
Will this make PVP more fun?
the difference is that cws and fighters do it with CC while rogues finish the job in stealth. 12 stacks of Cos has a total of 36s cd in comparison to the shorter cooldowns of the cw/fighters encounter powers, so all in all, it's pretty much fair except for the fact that GFs can run trains on squishies because of their super short cooldowns.
"OH BUT TRS ALSO HAVE 3 ENCOUNTER POWERS AVAILABLE FOR USE.. WAAA WAAA" - btw, most if not all rogues have at least 1-2 defensive encounters slotted in and do you know why? it's to defend ourselves against the massive amounts of CC that we do not have.
so i've come to the conclusion that all classes are strong (Except for clerics because of the massive nerfs to their heals but i've seen some really good post-patch clerics that hold their own and i've no experience with DCs personally so maybe i shouldn't comment on that) ALL classes are relatively strong in their own way, there was never a consensus that GF/GWFS were weak, i personally know a few Gf/Gwfs and they did super well in pvp pre-patch and they even admit it that their class was never weak to begin with it's just the carebears that don't know how to play their class and whine all day on the forums
So another person attempting to defend the build, but only making themselves look not very intelligent. So as a rogue after you use up your 12 stacks of CoS, do you sit there and wait the full 36s before using it again? Because last time I checked they recharged 1 every 3 seconds. The problem being discussed isn't solely on CoS. It's the rogues ability to maintain stealth and damage through 2 encounters and also a daily. Sure other classes use CC and kill, but their CC has its limits and can be countered easily. Being stealthed 15-20s+ all the while being able to do ranged damage is not easily countered and for some classes their only counter is LoS or running.
Judging from your post, you're probably not the most experienced with the rogue and haven't quite experienced just how overly effective an end game rogue with this spec can be. Perhaps you should leave the discussion to the folks with a bit more understanding.
p.s. Cloud of steel have range, use u'r head
Another genius response in its defense. This was an issue before any attempted fixes. It's only becoming more mainstreamed as more players try it out and embrace its mindless cheesiness.. Yes it does have range but TR's also have 30% movement speed in stealth with sneak attack, 10% run reduction on crit on target +10% run speed buff from speed swindle, +10% stealth bar on dodge with sneaky stabber. They can chase pretty easily, not to mention jumping and using CoS allows for a bit more movement while DPS'n. It's not a L2p issue... it's a this is currently a bit OP issue..
this is where your logic fails horribly, yeah CoS recharges 1 every 3 seconds so it'll take the rogue AT LEAST 5-7 charges until you start doing any noticeable damage unless you're trying to tell me 1 or 2 daggers will drain your entire hp bar. and fyi the 2 encounters you mentioned are shadow strike and bait and switch, so like i said it'll take at least 5-7 charges until you do noticeable damage which is 21 seconds. CC has its limits? please elaborate what you mean by limits, if you're talking about ItC then theoretically that rogue's encounter set up would be shadow strike + bait and switch + ItC and if your premade (assuming you don't have one since you're here crying about an at-will ability) is losing to a team with a rogue with that type of set up than you're a bunch of terrible players and were likely outplayed by the enemy team. the only thing i have to say to you is l2p your class instead of crying for nerfs on the forums because it only makes you look bad
perma stealth spec is not viable in premade v premade, what's the use of a perma stealth spec relying solely on CoS during a 5v5 team fight? here's a little tip for you and your group(if you have one)... if the perma stealth rogue's role is to simply backcap enemy base than you can counter it by simply ignoring him while he's capping your home and your team can 5 man zerg mid then cap their home point while your team spawn camps. you guys might need to have a bit of coordination and be capable of winning that 5v4 at mid, 5 being in your favor. see? if you actually used your head and learned to play you wouldn't be here crying, i assume you're mad because some rogue in a pug kept destroying you in stealth than perhaps you should find a group of people to play with, i can re-direct you to the guild recruitment section if you like, you just need to get out of that hard head and try to adapt.
edit: P.S I know my class very well more than you'd imagine
However if the only "counter" for a CW and a DC to rogues going stealth and peppering them with knives is "Run away as far as you can, as fast as you can" then there's a slight issue here even above and beong whether it's "OP" or not.
Neverwinter's PvP is all about controlling points. You don't win based on kills or how many times you steal points, you win based on how long you control points. In order to control a point you need to keep within a general vicinity. If you are running as far and as fast as you can because the only other alternative as a CW or DC is to get killed there's a major advantage gained just by forcing somebody out of a fight.
Forcing people out of a fight in a great tactic. You'll see it in games like LoL. If you at least maim somebody so they have to leave the fight it puts your team in a good position but normally you have to at least hit them a few times to send them running.
Currently it's more like this for CW's and DC, "The rogue went invisible RUN!!!!" This is because the damage output is high enough to kill 2-3 of them in a single stealth burst depending on gear scores. It's basically guaranteed to kill one unless the rogue is just god awful.
And when CW's/Dc's are forced to run like that, before any fights can even begin, the rest of the team is left in a huge disadvantage and it's all because of one certain skill combination.
Rogues need to be viable! I know that full well and will defend that rogues need to remain stealthed while in combat because that is their only true defense...
But they can't send both CW's and DC's running for the hills just because they went into stealth.
**Another note: When rogues are in stealth and they get within melee range a "shadow" of their image is created so you can dodge and avoid their abilities. Stealth is not meant to be guaranteed hits like CoS is permitting. Heck I'd be happy if the shadow is created every time they throw a knife so the DC and Cw can do something while getting pelted.
your words
Control Wizards can be nasty but if I have an ally nearby and the CW focuses on me chances are my ally is going to start messing with the CW. With a stealthed rogue the only thing that can be done is me running and leaving my ally behind which is hopefully a GF who has some chance of withstanding the barrage.
The difference comes down to how positioning can win fights. I can dodge GF's and GWF's all day in most casts. I can at least have allies help contend with CW's who decide to mess up my day...but when a rogue goes into stealth with the intention of simply throwing daggers the only positioning which will make a difference is if I leave town.
Stealth could be renamed to "Teleport One CW and One DC out of the fight for 20-30 seconds"
Is that wording a bit more clearer to the true power of the combination?
The other classes are fine. Heck the rogue is fine outside of the fact that CoS is completely uncountable short of CW's and DC's leaving the fight and often end up dead just trying to leave.
I Love CoS for solo PvE and it's an absolute must for PvP as it is now. But the reasoning for that is completely opposite. In PvE I use it to weaken the opponents coming AT me. In PvP I use it on stationary opponents but most specifically on those running AWAY. It only takes 5 featpoints to make it into a snare, which doesn't really do much in PvE IMO, but is incredibly efficient in PvP.
A 30s full recharge time is meaningless in PvP, when I can just stealth up and lurk someplace safe for a while. In PvE I'll still get hunted.
I really don't want to lose it for PvE, but as it is now, it's just too powerful for PvP. Either you get shredded because your gearscore is not 11k+, or because the TR spent an (exploited) fortune on runes.
IMO it's the combination of staying in stealth and using a ranged attack. When a TR engages in melee he's at least somewhat visible and targetable, not so with CoS, and I think that's the main problem.
I hate to propose a nerf to my own favorite class, but diminishing return on stealth the same way as with melee, or just flat damage and move the snare feat further along the paragon tree.... I could live with something like that, and IMO would be more sporting.
Perhaps you should read more of the thread.. there's no point in arguing with the ignorant.