I think it's a fair review and all the points about the longevity of the games are relevant. There's a reason why i spent no money on this game yet: enchants. I don't like pay to win, that's what enchants are with the current mechanics and stupid failure rates.
But the game is fun. Fun but not worth my money currently. I don't pay when it's not fair.
You are talking about a completely different issue than I am. You do not seem to enjoy the game(play) itself, and while you are certainly entitled to that opinion, it is completely irrelevant to the specific subject of "pay 2 win". The simple fact of the matter is, you have a way to get every item in the game store without spending 1 red cent of your own money. Sure, it may take a lot of time investment, but the same is true of getting the top end gear in every MMO. Whether you happen to enjoy the process in this game as much as you do in another game is irrelevant to that fact.
Someone is paying that money, though. You can only convert your astral diamonds to Zen that other players have purchased from Cryptic in exchange for real money. Cryptic is still charging you $40 for a mount, regardless who pays for it. So, while you might not personally have to open your wallet, these features are "pay to win", because someone did, in fact, have to pay real money.
There is no way for you to obtain the cash shop items without Cryptic getting the full price that is set in the cash shop. That is what makes it pay to win.
-Travail.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
Someone is paying that money, though. You can only convert your astral diamonds to Zen that other players have purchased from Cryptic in exchange for real money. Cryptic is still charging you $40 for a mount, regardless who pays for it. So, while you might not personally have to open your wallet, these features are "pay to win", because someone did, in fact, have to pay real money.
There is no way for you to obtain the cash shop items without Cryptic getting the full price that is set in the cash shop. That is what makes it pay to win.
-Travail.
So PWE making money = Pay to Win? I don't think P2W means what you think it means.....
Someone is paying that money, though. You can only convert your astral diamonds to Zen that other players have purchased from Cryptic in exchange for real money. Cryptic is still charging you $40 for a mount, regardless who pays for it. So, while you might not personally have to open your wallet, these features are "pay to win", because someone did, in fact, have to pay real money.
There is no way for you to obtain the cash shop items without Cryptic getting the full price that is set in the cash shop. That is what makes it pay to win.
-Travail.
I understand the point you are trying to make, and it is true that someone has to buy the zen that winds up on the exchange in game. However, that is not related to the "pay 2 win" discussion. Why? Because "pay 2 win" means that the person who pays gets an advantage over the person who doesnt. But that is not the case in this game. Player-A may pay for zen and then trade it to Player-B for AD, but Player-B isnt paying anything and he still gets the zen he wants. So that means Player-A isnt getting an advantage over Player-B by paying. Therefore it isnt a "pay 2 win" situation.
I do indeed. And I happily support the game with the money I have worked for. If someone uses AD to acquire the Zen I have paid for, they need to earn that AD. At 360 AD/Zen it will take about 1440000 AD to but a $40 mount. You can earn this in a month by acquiring desired items and selling them on the AH. I have already earned that much beyond what I got from my founders pack.
My only argument is that this game is not P2W because a player can acquire anything, ANYTHING, in the game without spending a dime, thanks to the monetary purchases made by other players. This very principal negates P2W. Sure I can get it now by paying, and I am happy to do so. You don't need to pay a dime to get what I have, but then you have to work rather hard for it, but free players are gated from nothing at all.
Then why are you claiming that those players don't contribute to the support of the game? that's a contradiction to what you just stated.
also, the rate of AD gain IS a time-gate, I mean, literally the only thing that separates it from other currencies in sub models is it can be earned on the AH if you gouge your way to it again, I'm not getting how you're missing these connections.
The argument of pay to win, is a very very silly one also, the definition of winning can be refuted and argued via semantics all day long and never go anywhere in a massive circlejerk.
That however doesn't mean that there wasn't potentially better ways for Neverwinter to be monetized, as we've seen F2P micro-transaction models do very well when not offering up this convoluted "gidgets to smidgets to widgets" style system.
And ultimately if the time disparity from the time gating of how fast you can earn AD's is too high, then folks are off put by the system itself and very quickly just abandon it for another game that doesn't do it, might not be an MMORPG, but there is better options in terms of monetization. The fact that it will always have a few players in it no matter how bad it gets or what it fails to address, is irrelevant also as I've seen games that are FAR worse grabs than this survive to this very day despite being horrendous in terms of monetization.
I guess we won't know how far they've pushed the internet until there's an ED article. Once it has that, get your troll proof gear on cos it will get interesting in here.
If its p2w or not: the system they use give the player who is 'willing to pay" an advantage over players that dont. As long as you not play the game to triumph over others there is no problem: except that ppl leave and rather play other games (incl me) and lose the love for the company. So at the end i think Cryptic has a nice game that doesnt appeal to the mass... good luck and have fun?
Simple things that doesnt feel good? 6$ for a respec? A Beta state that is not focused on feedback but fixing zen/diamond related iseus? high lvl enchants that take 1-2 years to obtain without zen currency. every gdmnd window you open has a zen-store button? Updates that focus on Ah and zen store? Minimal feedback on the 2 most fun classes that are broken for PVE?..and so on
I understand the point you are trying to make, and it is true that someone has to buy the zen that winds up on the exchange in game. However, that is not related to the "pay 2 win" discussion. Why? Because "pay 2 win" means that the person who pays gets an advantage over the person who doesnt. But that is not the case in this game. Player-A may pay for zen and then trade it to Player-B for AD, but Player-B isnt paying anything and he still gets the zen he wants. So that means Player-A isnt getting an advantage over Player-B by paying. Therefore it isnt a "pay 2 win" situation.
Player A is getting an advantage since he created currency for himself by using means outside of the game. He's the one that's paying to win, not player B. And while I'll give you that the zen exchange helps to alleviate the exclusively of a cash shop, the simple fact that you can purchase an advantage in a game by spending money on it constitute a p2w game.
Now, there's a few things that I wouldn't consider p2w in this game such as bags, mounts that are EQUAL in speed to your highest speed mount obtained in-game, dyes, appearance items. Everything else can be constituted as a p2w item. Of course not everything has a big impact on the game but some really DO. Good example of items that make a big difference is the ioun stone, the respecc, scroll of ressurection, stone of health, 110% speed mounts and the profession packs.
Now, I am not saying that this is a bad model, but I am saying that it's a model that I refuse to support with my money. Obviously, a lot of players are fine with paying in such model, but not me.
0
tenshazMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 10Arc User
Player A is getting an advantage since he created currency for himself by using means outside of the game. He's the one that's paying to win, not player B. And while I'll give you that the zen exchange helps to alleviate the exclusively of a cash shop, the simple fact that you can purchase an advantage in a game by spending money on it constitute a p2w game.
Now, there's a few things that I wouldn't consider p2w in this game such as bags, mounts that are EQUAL in speed to your highest speed mount obtained in-game, dyes, appearance items. Everything else can be constituted as a p2w item. Of course not everything has a big impact on the game but some really DO. Good example of items that make a big difference is the ioun stone, the respecc, scroll of ressurection, stone of health, 110% speed mounts and the profession packs.
Now, I am not saying that this is a bad model, but I am saying that it's a model that I refuse to support with my money. Obviously, a lot of players are fine with paying in such model, but not me.
I agree with all but the terribly over simplified "pay to win" term, which really needs to just be called "bad monetization paradigm"
Player A is getting an advantage since he created currency for himself by using means outside of the game. He's the one that's paying to win, not player B. And while I'll give you that the zen exchange helps to alleviate the exclusively of a cash shop, the simple fact that you can purchase an advantage in a game by spending money on it constitute a p2w game.
Now, there's a few things that I wouldn't consider p2w in this game such as bags, mounts that are EQUAL in speed to your highest speed mount obtained in-game, dyes, appearance items. Everything else can be constituted as a p2w item. Of course not everything has a big impact on the game but some really DO. Good example of items that make a big difference is the ioun stone, the respecc, scroll of ressurection, stone of health, 110% speed mounts and the profession packs.
Now, I am not saying that this is a bad model, but I am saying that it's a model that I refuse to support with my money. Obviously, a lot of players are fine with paying in such model, but not me.
You do realize all of these things are currently available on the auction house.... right?
the simple fact that you can purchase an advantage in a game by spending money on it constitute a p2w game.
An advantage is only an advantage if other people dont have it. If other people can get it without spending any money, then it isnt an advantage. And since you can get it without PAYing for it, it isnt PAY to win.
I think they gave the game as it is now a pretty fair review, though I think they could give the devs a little more credit for addressing major exploits quickly and having good communication about it.
I also think they made very good points about the longevity of the game, saying this:
I particularly agree (and I'm sure many others do as well) that the Zen prices right now are a bit crazy. I do not mind a cash shop in a game, and as you can tell by my founder status, I'm not shy about spending a bit of cash on games I enjoy, even F2P ones, but the prices are just too high for everything. If PWE were to cut their prices in half on everything it would almost guarantee more sales and increased revenue for the game. I love recommending Neverwinter to my friends to try out, but I'm a little embarrassed that I have to caution them about the cash shop while I'm doing it, so they don't get sticker shocked when they first encounter it themselves.
Anyway those are just my thoughts, take a look at the review and discuss yours too! :cool:
Totally agree Wasabi, when I tell people about this game im hesitant to say its F2P because I know they are gonna say hmm, whats the catch?, at this point I start to cringe when i say they have a cash shop. Cash shop games have quite a stigma, but most companies are moving to this model of micro transactions, in the end they actually make more money. The players feel ripped off because they aren't getting a chunk of game content for a chunk of money, they feel like they are spending more for these little things than what they are worth. But somehow it works and F2P models are netting more gains for software companies.
The difference there is Mincraft was praised despite some major issues, it was the game that could do no wrong no matter, if the same overlooking was applied to NW..what might the review score be then?
Neverwinter gets strikes for things that have been overlooked in other games, and it get strikes against it for being a Cryptic game (because after all you have to hate cryptic for whatever imagined offense they perpetrated during CoH. CO or STO :rolleyes:) and being a PWE title simply because of the Asian connection.
Honestly the game deserves an 8, not a nine or ten but a solid 8, there is a lot of room for improvement but they got a lot of things right in the gameplay area and fun factor...especially when you consider the utter HAMSTER that has been released to the market in the past five years, HAMSTER that mmorpg.com has gushed over.
Still it doesn't mean a hill of beans, no one takes MMORPG.com seriously and it will not effect one single sale.
The user reviews in your second embedded link are pretty amusing lol
I understand the point you are trying to make, and it is true that someone has to buy the zen that winds up on the exchange in game. However, that is not related to the "pay 2 win" discussion. Why? Because "pay 2 win" means that the person who pays gets an advantage over the person who doesnt. But that is not the case in this game. Player-A may pay for zen and then trade it to Player-B for AD, but Player-B isnt paying anything and he still gets the zen he wants. So that means Player-A isnt getting an advantage over Player-B by paying. Therefore it isnt a "pay 2 win" situation.
Cryptic is charging real money for those advantages. The item, itself, is a "pay to win" item, regardless who's account the money is withdrawn from.
This is like saying that no game can ever be pay to win, so long as you use your parents' credit card to buy from the cash shop. Just because someone else is buying you your stuff, doesn't change the fact that those items are being payed for using real cash money, and that is the only way to obtain them because all Zen must be payed for using real money, at some point down the line.
-Travail.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
I honestly wonder if you are one of the developer's alt accounts or something, because the two links you posted have nothing to do with Neverwinter or MMORPG.com at all.
At the very least you've got to be a shill of some kind. No person in their right mind would spin the HAMSTER you do with a straight face.
I doubt very much that stormdrag0n is a Dev's alt or a paid shrill as he seems to somehow genuinely believe what he is saying. Not that that is any less worrying of course......
You do realize all of these things are currently available on the auction house.... right?
yes, they are available if you are willing to farm and work towards them.
Using real money is instant gratification and skip the whole farming process.
An advantage is only an advantage if other people dont have it. If other people can get it without spending any money, then it isnt an advantage. And since you can get it without PAYing for it, it isnt PAY to win.
This is true.
People are confusing instant gratification with pay to win.
Pay to win would be a cash shop that sold enhancements, gear etc. Which is more poweful than an in game item that can only be obtained by cash where a game credit to cash system doesnt exist.
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narathkorMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Beta is just a tag they use to avoid legal complications with downtimes and errors (Such as the AH exploit) In regards to GBP/USD/EUR/Etc.. -> Zen
If they wouldn't have rolled back and the game wasn't tagged by them as 'Open-beta' then they could easily find themselves up against a stack of lawsuits. But because they have the security of the game being 'Open-beta' you can't do anything about it as it states somewhere in the eula that the game is not representative of a fully released product and therefore contains vulnerabilities and is liable for downtime, in some manner of speaking.
They would not have to call it open beta for that reason. It also states in the EULA that there is no guarantee of service, that does not apply to beta that is in all EULA's for all games, and it means in legal terms "We can pull the plug and say f you and you can not do a thing about it"
markrush1978Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
It's actually a good review and I agree with most of it.
And yes please ...
- More endgame content in the form of dungeons, quests, etc.
- More PvP content. This is critical. More types, more maps, more variety, bigger teams, etc.
- More tools and abilities for Foundry builders.
- Better Zen Market prices. Again, this is critical.
I agree that throwing a beta tag up there isn't a valid shield from criticism when you're taking money from customers. The community is right to call out PW and Cryptic for this practice, regardless of whether they feel it's justified based on what other games have done.
Regarding the website that hosted this review. That place is a den of the least mature gamers in the PC market place. I'm actually convinced that that community doesn't even enjoy video games. They just like to complain on the internet. Seriously, save yourself the headache and never visit that site. It's a waste of a .com address.
I'm not going to comment on the actual review. The game is fun and it has a cash shop that is presently mostly a waste of money. Play it for free and vote with your wallet for them to come up with a better business model.
I agree the game needs a lot more added really fast. But not stuff that is Cryptic standards. Properly done. Sorry Cryptic, you have good intentions but you always have a way of HAMSTER something up.
I really find it funny how many people can not wrap their head around the fact that they disguised a release with an open beta. On some level it makes me sad because these are people I run into as I game. Wait... this might explain more than I thought. lol
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valhalanaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 12Arc User
I think they gave the game as it is now a pretty fair review, though I think they could give the devs a little more credit for addressing major exploits quickly and having good communication about it.
Am i the only one that lol'ed at this comment? i seriously hope not.
Regardless of the fact that MMOwhat ever .com did a review on a game that everyone's been guilty of given a review on in these exact same forums is beyond the point when it comes to this comment.
FACT: PWE / Crypt all knew about these bug's in closed beta, YET they did nothing about it. "Give the devs a little more credit" for what? Doing what they should have done in Closed Beta? Now it's in so called "Open Beta" but only feel the need to call it a release when it fit's the need to ban people for calling out bug's that should've been fixed way in the past. So yeah, let's give the dev's all the credit in the world for A. Not fixing the texture bug, B. Not fixing the Protector's Enclave Load in, C. Not Fixing The insane amounts of lag inside CN and D. Not fixing the TR exploit with the Duel Dagger's that can go in both hands and also socket weapon enchants ...
So yeah, you wanna give credit go right ahead. 3+ weeks on a waiting que for the mailing system eating over 10+mil of my AD and time along with everyone elses just to recieve a big F you in my email box because they could care less. You base your opinion's off of second hand information and try to back up a game that you obviously enjoy as i do but i am not afraid of calling out the bs when i see it. and your comment is full of it just like PWE and Cryptic.
everyone round of applause for PWE and Cryptic *golf clap*
Of course its released, when a cash shop goes live, the game becomes live, if they taking your money you expect some performance on the game and fixes in good time. At the very least a functioning customer services!
Personaly, my biggest issue with this game is the bosses. A boss is not endless waves of adds and one main guy with alot of health that does 2 abilities. It's lazy design and after the 5th dungeon of the same thing it's tedious to say the least. Just feels like "here have a randomly named dude with boss status, although its his adds you need to worry about, again, forever"
praematuraMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited June 2013
I loved this game. About level 40ish I realized there was no point in leveling because there is no endgame and my GF was a useless tank with broken threat mechanics, but I kept on playing and paying thinking it would be fixed. Then the Ah exploit rollback happened and then reading the patch notes each week solidified my perception that they would not fix the game and reality set in. Now' $140 later I'm both shocked at what was basically fraudulent misrepresentation in that this is in alpha and it will never get out of "open-beta" because they would need to do a massive refund. Too bad because the potential was there, but no there is zero goodwill towards the game now. I think its dead, we all know that but are just venting.
Comments
But the game is fun. Fun but not worth my money currently. I don't pay when it's not fair.
Someone is paying that money, though. You can only convert your astral diamonds to Zen that other players have purchased from Cryptic in exchange for real money. Cryptic is still charging you $40 for a mount, regardless who pays for it. So, while you might not personally have to open your wallet, these features are "pay to win", because someone did, in fact, have to pay real money.
There is no way for you to obtain the cash shop items without Cryptic getting the full price that is set in the cash shop. That is what makes it pay to win.
-Travail.
So PWE making money = Pay to Win? I don't think P2W means what you think it means.....
I understand the point you are trying to make, and it is true that someone has to buy the zen that winds up on the exchange in game. However, that is not related to the "pay 2 win" discussion. Why? Because "pay 2 win" means that the person who pays gets an advantage over the person who doesnt. But that is not the case in this game. Player-A may pay for zen and then trade it to Player-B for AD, but Player-B isnt paying anything and he still gets the zen he wants. So that means Player-A isnt getting an advantage over Player-B by paying. Therefore it isnt a "pay 2 win" situation.
Then why are you claiming that those players don't contribute to the support of the game?
also, the rate of AD gain IS a time-gate, I mean, literally the only thing that separates it from other currencies in sub models is it can be earned on the AH if you gouge your way to it
The argument of pay to win, is a very very silly one also, the definition of winning can be refuted and argued via semantics all day long and never go anywhere in a massive circlejerk.
That however doesn't mean that there wasn't potentially better ways for Neverwinter to be monetized, as we've seen F2P micro-transaction models do very well when not offering up this convoluted "gidgets to smidgets to widgets" style system.
And ultimately if the time disparity from the time gating of how fast you can earn AD's is too high, then folks are off put by the system itself and very quickly just abandon it for another game that doesn't do it, might not be an MMORPG, but there is better options in terms of monetization. The fact that it will always have a few players in it no matter how bad it gets or what it fails to address, is irrelevant also as I've seen games that are FAR worse grabs than this survive to this very day despite being horrendous in terms of monetization.
I guess we won't know how far they've pushed the internet until there's an ED article. Once it has that, get your troll proof gear on cos it will get interesting in here.
Simple things that doesnt feel good? 6$ for a respec? A Beta state that is not focused on feedback but fixing zen/diamond related iseus? high lvl enchants that take 1-2 years to obtain without zen currency. every gdmnd window you open has a zen-store button? Updates that focus on Ah and zen store? Minimal feedback on the 2 most fun classes that are broken for PVE?..and so on
Player A is getting an advantage since he created currency for himself by using means outside of the game. He's the one that's paying to win, not player B. And while I'll give you that the zen exchange helps to alleviate the exclusively of a cash shop, the simple fact that you can purchase an advantage in a game by spending money on it constitute a p2w game.
Now, there's a few things that I wouldn't consider p2w in this game such as bags, mounts that are EQUAL in speed to your highest speed mount obtained in-game, dyes, appearance items. Everything else can be constituted as a p2w item. Of course not everything has a big impact on the game but some really DO. Good example of items that make a big difference is the ioun stone, the respecc, scroll of ressurection, stone of health, 110% speed mounts and the profession packs.
Now, I am not saying that this is a bad model, but I am saying that it's a model that I refuse to support with my money. Obviously, a lot of players are fine with paying in such model, but not me.
All dungeon are exploitable. GG is open beta jk.
I agree with all but the terribly over simplified "pay to win" term, which really needs to just be called "bad monetization paradigm"
You do realize all of these things are currently available on the auction house.... right?
Don't be a fool, Open Beta with working cash shop=Live Release
An advantage is only an advantage if other people dont have it. If other people can get it without spending any money, then it isnt an advantage. And since you can get it without PAYing for it, it isnt PAY to win.
Totally agree Wasabi, when I tell people about this game im hesitant to say its F2P because I know they are gonna say hmm, whats the catch?, at this point I start to cringe when i say they have a cash shop. Cash shop games have quite a stigma, but most companies are moving to this model of micro transactions, in the end they actually make more money. The players feel ripped off because they aren't getting a chunk of game content for a chunk of money, they feel like they are spending more for these little things than what they are worth. But somehow it works and F2P models are netting more gains for software companies.
The user reviews in your second embedded link are pretty amusing lol
Cryptic is charging real money for those advantages. The item, itself, is a "pay to win" item, regardless who's account the money is withdrawn from.
This is like saying that no game can ever be pay to win, so long as you use your parents' credit card to buy from the cash shop. Just because someone else is buying you your stuff, doesn't change the fact that those items are being payed for using real cash money, and that is the only way to obtain them because all Zen must be payed for using real money, at some point down the line.
-Travail.
I doubt very much that stormdrag0n is a Dev's alt or a paid shrill as he seems to somehow genuinely believe what he is saying. Not that that is any less worrying of course......
yes, they are available if you are willing to farm and work towards them.
Using real money is instant gratification and skip the whole farming process.
There was no mention of pay to win in that article, no where. They only pointed out that cash shop prices are overly inflated.
This is true.
People are confusing instant gratification with pay to win.
Pay to win would be a cash shop that sold enhancements, gear etc. Which is more poweful than an in game item that can only be obtained by cash where a game credit to cash system doesnt exist.
They would not have to call it open beta for that reason. It also states in the EULA that there is no guarantee of service, that does not apply to beta that is in all EULA's for all games, and it means in legal terms "We can pull the plug and say f you and you can not do a thing about it"
The Sins of the Father NW-DLN6BC8NX
A Name For Yourself NW-DRBWMCFL4
Click Here To Visit The Official Thread
And yes please ...
- More endgame content in the form of dungeons, quests, etc.
- More PvP content. This is critical. More types, more maps, more variety, bigger teams, etc.
- More tools and abilities for Foundry builders.
- Better Zen Market prices. Again, this is critical.
Regarding the website that hosted this review. That place is a den of the least mature gamers in the PC market place. I'm actually convinced that that community doesn't even enjoy video games. They just like to complain on the internet. Seriously, save yourself the headache and never visit that site. It's a waste of a .com address.
I'm not going to comment on the actual review. The game is fun and it has a cash shop that is presently mostly a waste of money. Play it for free and vote with your wallet for them to come up with a better business model.
I really find it funny how many people can not wrap their head around the fact that they disguised a release with an open beta. On some level it makes me sad because these are people I run into as I game. Wait... this might explain more than I thought. lol
Am i the only one that lol'ed at this comment? i seriously hope not.
Regardless of the fact that MMOwhat ever .com did a review on a game that everyone's been guilty of given a review on in these exact same forums is beyond the point when it comes to this comment.
FACT: PWE / Crypt all knew about these bug's in closed beta, YET they did nothing about it. "Give the devs a little more credit" for what? Doing what they should have done in Closed Beta? Now it's in so called "Open Beta" but only feel the need to call it a release when it fit's the need to ban people for calling out bug's that should've been fixed way in the past. So yeah, let's give the dev's all the credit in the world for A. Not fixing the texture bug, B. Not fixing the Protector's Enclave Load in, C. Not Fixing The insane amounts of lag inside CN and D. Not fixing the TR exploit with the Duel Dagger's that can go in both hands and also socket weapon enchants ...
So yeah, you wanna give credit go right ahead. 3+ weeks on a waiting que for the mailing system eating over 10+mil of my AD and time along with everyone elses just to recieve a big F you in my email box because they could care less. You base your opinion's off of second hand information and try to back up a game that you obviously enjoy as i do but i am not afraid of calling out the bs when i see it. and your comment is full of it just like PWE and Cryptic.
everyone round of applause for PWE and Cryptic *golf clap*
Of course its released, when a cash shop goes live, the game becomes live, if they taking your money you expect some performance on the game and fixes in good time. At the very least a functioning customer services!
Rather the honesty than the companies that do the same thing but call it a true release. At least the players have the proper expectations going in.
Not managing expectation in the ramp up to the release of an MMO has been the root cause of a lot of big game failures imo (or near failures)