all store items should be only cosmetic. no turning money to game money or buy best gear in game.
This doesnt answer my question. Pay to win...what? What are you winning by having something that is a little better than someone else? I guess if you are PvPing it might make a difference, although PvP is rarely 1 vs 1, so your entire group is going to make more of a difference than a specific piece of gear your wearing. And in PvE, everyone wins the same thing. You dont get a better loot drop because you were wearing a better helmet than another guy. So again, what are you paying to win?
This doesnt answer my question. Pay to win...what? What are you winning by having something that is a little better than someone else? I guess if you are PvPing it might make a difference, although PvP is rarely 1 vs 1, so your entire group is going to make more of a difference than a specific piece of gear your wearing. And in PvE, everyone wins the same thing. You dont get a better loot drop because you were wearing a better helmet than another guy. So again, what are you paying to win?
the difference between a group with 50% speed mount and a group with 110% speed mount in pvp is like day and night. They can defend faster, they can attack faster. It's a HUGE advantage, one that's almost impossible to overcome. It is effectively p2w
the difference between a group with 50% speed mount and a group with 110% speed mount in pvp is like day and night. They can defend faster, they can attack faster. It's a HUGE advantage, one that's almost impossible to overcome. It is effectively p2w
I gotcha. However, there is one major flaw with your logic. If I am able to get a mount from the game store without spending a dime, by trading AD for zen, then I'm not paying anything. Therefore it cant be P2W if I can get it for free. That would make it "Free 2 Win".
I gotcha. However, there is one major flaw with your logic. If I am able to get a mount from the game store without spending a dime, by trading AD for zen, then I'm not paying anything. Therefore it cant be P2W if I can get it for free. That would make it "Free 2 Win".
How much time will it take for you to get enough AD to buy that mount?
the difference between a group with 50% speed mount and a group with 110% speed mount in pvp is like day and night. They can defend faster, they can attack faster. It's a HUGE advantage, one that's almost impossible to overcome. It is effectively p2w
I gotcha. However, there is one major flaw with your logic. If I am able to get a mount from the game store without spending a dime, by trading AD for zen, then I'm not paying anything. Therefore it cant be P2W if I can get it for free. That would make it "Free 2 Win".
I think you both make good points about mount speed in relation to PVP. There is a definite disadvantage to those who haven't paid enough money or grinded enough AD to have a fast mount. Perhaps a nice compromise would be for the devs to implement a mechanic in PVP arenas that all mounts have the same speed.
How much time will it take for you to get enough AD to buy that mount?
What difference does that make? That just makes it pay for expedience. You don't want to pay? be prepared to put a lot of work in. You want it now and free? Too bad.
What difference does that make? That just makes it pay for expedience. You don't want to pay? be prepared to put a lot of work in. You want it now and free? Too bad.
How much time will it take for you to get enough AD to buy that mount?
I'm not sure. It probably depends on exactly what you are doing to earn them, since certain quests are faster to complete then others. However, every MMO I have played requires lots of time to get the top end gear. Whether its doing dozens of raids or grinding NPCs for a rare drop, it still takes lots of time. So I dont see how spending that same amount of time to get the needed amount of AD is any different. At the end of the day the point is that you can get the best gear without spending any money, so you dont have to pay anything to 'win".
Oh... you are one of those bridge dwellers who doesn't like to discus the matter in a mature and constructive manner. Forgive me for engaging you on your misrepresented view and please carry on with your normal activites.
Oh... you are one of those bridge dwellers who doesn't like to discus the matter in a mature and constructive manner. Forgive me for engaging you on your misrepresented view and please carry on with your normal activites.
Have a good day.
i asked a question, I just need the answer. I think this is easy to understand. But well, I tell you this, We can all agree that you will need a huge amount of time to get that mount through ADs. let's say 2 months. That means for 2 months you will lose a lot of game due to ppl that already bought that mount with ADs or not. Who will agree to play for 2 months with that disadvantage?
i asked a question, I just need the answer. I think this is easy to understand. But well, I tell you this, We can all agree that you will need a huge amount of time to get that mount through ADs. let's say 2 months. That means for 2 months you will lose a lot of game due to ppl that already bought that mount with ADs or not. Who will agree to play for 2 months with that disadvantage?
How is that any different than in an MMO that requires tons of grinding through raids or dungeons to get the best gear? If you dont have the best gear in PvP, you will be at the same disadvantage you have been discussing until you put in the necessary time to get the gear yourself. So I guess the real question is, if getting the top end gear takes a lot of time in every other game, why did you think it would be completely different in this one?
i asked a question, I just need the answer. I think this is easy to understand. But well, I tell you this, We can all agree that you will need a huge amount of time to get that mount through ADs. let's say 2 months. That means for 2 months you will lose a lot of game due to ppl that already bought that mount with ADs or not. Who will agree to play for 2 months with that disadvantage?
Anyone who does not want to support the game but wants to have what paying players have. Makes sense to me. Pay or work for it. That is how F2P systems work.
Oh... you are one of those bridge dwellers who doesn't like to discus the matter in a mature and constructive manner. Forgive me for engaging you on your misrepresented view and please carry on with your normal activites.
Have a good day.
No.
He's just one of those players that questions the difference between the "convenience" of buying things outright with cash and the "alternative" which is offered to him. If your arguments differ due to a subjective difference of what constitutes equality in those rights, then your discussion should have more depth than you're allowing it to have.
By ignoring his question and not paying it any mind, you're proving that you're just not willing to discuss this at the lengths it deserves.
So before you go and attack him, read the post above yours. Cos you just literally gave everyone a textbook example of the ad hominem fallacy.
Anyone who does not want to support the game but wants to have what paying players have. Makes sense to me. Pay or work for it. That is how F2P systems work.
The zen that would be used to purchase would be supplied by players who've bought zen with cash and sold it for AD, they are in fact offering a service to the paying players by gaining and selling the currency. If they're offering players a needed service and those players are buying zen, they are supporting the game. Players that don't sell AD also, are still contributing by being content for paying players.
You really have no idea how this monetization model is supposed to work do you?
Also- give up on the beta fanboi defense. Really? They'll be saying this game is in beta until 2015, just because some clowns will buy whatever a big company tells them. I've never seen such a long 'open beta', and absolutely not one so long that they still don't have a launch date for- no, this is their excuse to release the game way before it was ready, solely so they can collect money.
Game is NOT in open beta- what the game IS, is a greedy early launch, and one so incredibly bad, it's already generating numerous memes- heck, even THE DEVS have put out memes making fun of it, you know you done goofed when you're making fun of how done goofed you done.
And frankly- the bug report button has been bugged for weeks- how does that not get attention?
People need to pipe the **** down. We're not talking about WarZ here, we're talking about a decent game that isn't getting enough credit where it's due. Don't like prices? Guess what, you don't have to buy a thing. Let me repeat that. You do not have to buy a thing. One more time... It's free.
wasabiburn, I just want to say thank you, because all of your posts in this thread have been fantastic.
agreed... my guild was all over this game... then we hit 60 and nobody's been on for a week because there is no solo epic level content. There's a foundry for this, people! Give rewards for 60s that are worthwhile so we have a reason at max level to play Foundry missions!
What difference does that make? That just makes it pay for expedience. You don't want to pay? be prepared to put a lot of work in. You want it now and free? Too bad.
Exactly. Everyone seems to think because they can't have what they want right now for absolutely nothing, then mommy and daddy are bad people. Grow up, kids. Pay some cash or play the game more.
How is that any different than in an MMO that requires tons of grinding through raids or dungeons to get the best gear? If you dont have the best gear in PvP, you will be at the same disadvantage you have been discussing until you put in the necessary time to get the gear yourself. So I guess the real question is, if getting the top end gear takes a lot of time in every other game, why did you think it would be completely different in this one?
Maybe because Cryptic countless times trumpeted that it is not a P2W game when in reality it is or how incredibly grindy it is.
Other games have character progression and gear, true, but people do it do the fun of raiding and challenge both of which is absent in NW. Dailies were never a largely popular concept as it got way too repetitive way too fast. Not to mention other MMOs have raids that proved to be a challenge and fun which is something NW failed at.
Cryptic just did their mediocrity yet again which they are renowned for. Instead of focusing on certain key elements or pillars they went for the wide array of features all of which are substandard. Not to mention many aspects of D&D they failed to incorporate, they should have taken notes of how Turbine handled DDO.
The zen that would be used to purchase would be supplied by players who've bought zen with cash and sold it for AD, they are in fact offering a service to the paying players by gaining and selling the currency. If they're offering players a needed service and those players are buying zen, they are supporting the game. Players that don't sell AD also, are still contributing by being content for paying players.
You really have no idea how this monetization model is supposed to work do you?
I do indeed. And I happily support the game with the money I have worked for. If someone uses AD to acquire the Zen I have paid for, they need to earn that AD. At 360 AD/Zen it will take about 1440000 AD to but a $40 mount. You can earn this in a month by acquiring desired items and selling them on the AH. I have already earned that much beyond what I got from my founders pack.
My only argument is that this game is not P2W because a player can acquire anything, ANYTHING, in the game without spending a dime, thanks to the monetary purchases made by other players. This very principal negates P2W. Sure I can get it now by paying, and I am happy to do so. You don't need to pay a dime to get what I have, but then you have to work rather hard for it, but free players are gated from nothing at all.
Maybe because Cryptic countless times trumpeted that it is not a P2W game when in reality it is or how incredibly grindy it is.
Other games have character progression and gear, true, but people do it do the fun of raiding and challenge both of which is absent in NW. Dailies were never a largely popular concept as it got way too repetitive way too fast. Not to mention other MMOs have raids that proved to be a challenge and fun which is something NW failed at.
Cryptic just did their mediocrity yet again which they are renowned for. Instead of focusing on certain key elements or pillars they went for the wide array of features all of which are substandard. Not to mention many aspects of D&D they failed to incorporate, they should have taken notes of how Turbine handled DDO.
You are talking about a completely different issue than I am. You do not seem to enjoy the game(play) itself, and while you are certainly entitled to that opinion, it is completely irrelevant to the specific subject of "pay 2 win". The simple fact of the matter is, you have a way to get every item in the game store without spending 1 red cent of your own money. Sure, it may take a lot of time investment, but the same is true of getting the top end gear in every MMO. Whether you happen to enjoy the process in this game as much as you do in another game is irrelevant to that fact.
People need to pipe the **** down. We're not talking about WarZ here, we're talking about a decent game that isn't getting enough credit where it's due. Don't like prices? Guess what, you don't have to buy a thing. Let me repeat that. You do not have to buy a thing. One more time... It's free.
wasabiburn, I just want to say thank you, because all of your posts in this thread have been fantastic.
The game is getting the EXACT credit it is due as reviewers are demonstrating and the comment response are in general agreement with. Cryptic really ****ed the game up and just made it into another Asian F2P cash shop generic MMO, this could solely be because of PWI and what many were worried about when the news came out about the acquisition. Looks like the fears came true.
I think they gave the game as it is now a pretty fair review, though I think they could give the devs a little more credit for addressing major exploits quickly and having good communication about it.
I also think they made very good points about the longevity of the game, saying this:
I particularly agree (and I'm sure many others do as well) that the Zen prices right now are a bit crazy. I do not mind a cash shop in a game, and as you can tell by my founder status, I'm not shy about spending a bit of cash on games I enjoy, even F2P ones, but the prices are just too high for everything. If PWE were to cut their prices in half on everything it would almost guarantee more sales and increased revenue for the game. I love recommending Neverwinter to my friends to try out, but I'm a little embarrassed that I have to caution them about the cash shop while I'm doing it, so they don't get sticker shocked when they first encounter it themselves.
Anyway those are just my thoughts, take a look at the review and discuss yours too! :cool:
I agree completely.... well almost. I don't think "More tools and abilities for Foundry builders." is critical at this point, that is more a long-term sustaining issue but the other points needs to be resolve ASAP otherwise population will continue to bleed.
I personally don't think it will happen. I have a bad feeling this game will be on life support by the time Wildstar and ESO have released.
You are talking about a completely different issue than I am. You do not seem to enjoy the game, and while you are certainly entitled to that opinion, it is completely irrelevant to the subject of "pay 2 win". The simple fact of the matter is, you have a way to get every item in the game store without spending 1 red cent of your own money. Sure, it may take a lot of time investment, but the same is true of getting the top end gear in every MMO. Whether you happen to enjoy the process in this game as much as you do in another game is irrelevant to that fact.
Yeah you don't have to spent one cent... but it's gonna make the game a 2nd job. Even for the most basic of commodities that all other MMOs incorperate as part of the games features (by features I mean like professions or a reward one can earn).
WoW deviated from that for a reason, people don't like it. People enjoying the process in obtaining the gear is PERCISELY the relevance of the fact. If the experiance in unenjoyable or repetitive or whatever then it's a failed mechanic. True, all raids to get repetitive over time however having a wide array of different fights which all have specific mechanics is what makes raiding fun and people continue on the gear grind.
Instead of making a fun experience Crytpic went a borish and repetive and grindy route. Players hate being nickled and dimed which is exactly what happens in NW.
Yeah you don't have to spent one cent... but it's gonna make the game a 2nd job. Even for the most basic of commodities that all other MMOs incorperate as part of the games features (by features I mean like professions or a reward one can earn).
WoW deviated from that for a reason, people don't like it. People enjoying the process in obtaining the gear is PERCISELY the relevance of the fact. If the experiance in unenjoyable or repetitive or whatever then it's a failed mechanic. True, all raids to get repetitive over time however having a wide array of different fights which all have specific mechanics is what makes raiding fun and people continue on the gear grind.
Instead of making a fun experience Crytpic went a borish and repetive and grindy route. Players hate being nickled and dimed which is exactly what happens in NW.
So all you are really saying is you don't like the game. That is perfectly fine. There is no one forcing you to play it.
Yeah you don't have to spent one cent... but it's gonna make the game a 2nd job. Even for the most basic of commodities that all other MMOs incorperate as part of the games features (by features I mean like professions or a reward one can earn).
WoW deviated from that for a reason, people don't like it. People enjoying the process in obtaining the gear is PERCISELY the relevance of the fact. If the experiance in unenjoyable or repetitive or whatever then it's a failed mechanic. True, all raids to get repetitive over time however having a wide array of different fights which all have specific mechanics is what makes raiding fun and people continue on the gear grind.
Instead of making a fun experience Crytpic went a borish and repetive and grindy route. Players hate being nickled and dimed which is exactly what happens in NW.
Let them learn the hard way. Your just beating a dead horse. The "warcraft crowd" will smoke thru this game in no time flat, most will leave for Wildstar anyways. (wish that wasn't true, since I'll be there as well) By the time they finish catering to the whiny warcraft crowd and "fixing" pvp and all the other things they are whining about, the D&D crowd, which would have stuck around here for a long time, will have all left. (I'm referring to that crowd that kept the single player nerverwinter titles alive for years after release and those weren't even fully online games and weren't even getting much in the way of content updates)
Let them learn the hard way. Let the fan boy's learn the hard way. All these failed releases will eventually mean better titles in the future. Every gaming company, well those with good games, always take note what has worked and what hasn't worked in other games.
Instead of making a fun experience Crytpic went a borish and repetive and grindy route.
You are confusing two completely separate issues:
1) what determines if something is "pay 2 win"
2) whether you personally enjoy the game
I am only discussing issue #1 in this thread, and the fact of the matter is you can get every single item in the game store without spending any of your money. Yes, it takes time. Lots of time. And that is equally true when it comes to getting the top end gear in every other MMO. But regardless of whether you personally enjoy the grind here as much as you might elsewhere, the fact of the matter is, the game isnt "pay 2 win" when you can get every single item available without paying anything.
Comments
This doesnt answer my question. Pay to win...what? What are you winning by having something that is a little better than someone else? I guess if you are PvPing it might make a difference, although PvP is rarely 1 vs 1, so your entire group is going to make more of a difference than a specific piece of gear your wearing. And in PvE, everyone wins the same thing. You dont get a better loot drop because you were wearing a better helmet than another guy. So again, what are you paying to win?
the difference between a group with 50% speed mount and a group with 110% speed mount in pvp is like day and night. They can defend faster, they can attack faster. It's a HUGE advantage, one that's almost impossible to overcome. It is effectively p2w
I gotcha. However, there is one major flaw with your logic. If I am able to get a mount from the game store without spending a dime, by trading AD for zen, then I'm not paying anything. Therefore it cant be P2W if I can get it for free. That would make it "Free 2 Win".
How much time will it take for you to get enough AD to buy that mount?
http://www.shouldyouplayit.org/neverwinter
I think you both make good points about mount speed in relation to PVP. There is a definite disadvantage to those who haven't paid enough money or grinded enough AD to have a fast mount. Perhaps a nice compromise would be for the devs to implement a mechanic in PVP arenas that all mounts have the same speed.
Burninator of Wasabiburn, Maker of Dreamz, Breaker of Heartz
What difference does that make? That just makes it pay for expedience. You don't want to pay? be prepared to put a lot of work in. You want it now and free? Too bad.
answer the question plz
No idea, I paid for mine. It would depend on how active you are in farming desired items to sell on the AH.
Then spare me your blabbling.
I'm not sure. It probably depends on exactly what you are doing to earn them, since certain quests are faster to complete then others. However, every MMO I have played requires lots of time to get the top end gear. Whether its doing dozens of raids or grinding NPCs for a rare drop, it still takes lots of time. So I dont see how spending that same amount of time to get the needed amount of AD is any different. At the end of the day the point is that you can get the best gear without spending any money, so you dont have to pay anything to 'win".
Oh... you are one of those bridge dwellers who doesn't like to discus the matter in a mature and constructive manner. Forgive me for engaging you on your misrepresented view and please carry on with your normal activites.
Have a good day.
i asked a question, I just need the answer. I think this is easy to understand. But well, I tell you this, We can all agree that you will need a huge amount of time to get that mount through ADs. let's say 2 months. That means for 2 months you will lose a lot of game due to ppl that already bought that mount with ADs or not. Who will agree to play for 2 months with that disadvantage?
How is that any different than in an MMO that requires tons of grinding through raids or dungeons to get the best gear? If you dont have the best gear in PvP, you will be at the same disadvantage you have been discussing until you put in the necessary time to get the gear yourself. So I guess the real question is, if getting the top end gear takes a lot of time in every other game, why did you think it would be completely different in this one?
Anyone who does not want to support the game but wants to have what paying players have. Makes sense to me. Pay or work for it. That is how F2P systems work.
No.
He's just one of those players that questions the difference between the "convenience" of buying things outright with cash and the "alternative" which is offered to him. If your arguments differ due to a subjective difference of what constitutes equality in those rights, then your discussion should have more depth than you're allowing it to have.
By ignoring his question and not paying it any mind, you're proving that you're just not willing to discuss this at the lengths it deserves.
So before you go and attack him, read the post above yours. Cos you just literally gave everyone a textbook example of the ad hominem fallacy.
The zen that would be used to purchase would be supplied by players who've bought zen with cash and sold it for AD, they are in fact offering a service to the paying players by gaining and selling the currency. If they're offering players a needed service and those players are buying zen, they are supporting the game. Players that don't sell AD also, are still contributing by being content for paying players.
You really have no idea how this monetization model is supposed to work do you?
People need to pipe the **** down. We're not talking about WarZ here, we're talking about a decent game that isn't getting enough credit where it's due. Don't like prices? Guess what, you don't have to buy a thing. Let me repeat that. You do not have to buy a thing. One more time... It's free.
wasabiburn, I just want to say thank you, because all of your posts in this thread have been fantastic.
agreed... my guild was all over this game... then we hit 60 and nobody's been on for a week because there is no solo epic level content. There's a foundry for this, people! Give rewards for 60s that are worthwhile so we have a reason at max level to play Foundry missions!
Exactly. Everyone seems to think because they can't have what they want right now for absolutely nothing, then mommy and daddy are bad people. Grow up, kids. Pay some cash or play the game more.
Maybe because Cryptic countless times trumpeted that it is not a P2W game when in reality it is or how incredibly grindy it is.
Other games have character progression and gear, true, but people do it do the fun of raiding and challenge both of which is absent in NW. Dailies were never a largely popular concept as it got way too repetitive way too fast. Not to mention other MMOs have raids that proved to be a challenge and fun which is something NW failed at.
Cryptic just did their mediocrity yet again which they are renowned for. Instead of focusing on certain key elements or pillars they went for the wide array of features all of which are substandard. Not to mention many aspects of D&D they failed to incorporate, they should have taken notes of how Turbine handled DDO.
I do indeed. And I happily support the game with the money I have worked for. If someone uses AD to acquire the Zen I have paid for, they need to earn that AD. At 360 AD/Zen it will take about 1440000 AD to but a $40 mount. You can earn this in a month by acquiring desired items and selling them on the AH. I have already earned that much beyond what I got from my founders pack.
My only argument is that this game is not P2W because a player can acquire anything, ANYTHING, in the game without spending a dime, thanks to the monetary purchases made by other players. This very principal negates P2W. Sure I can get it now by paying, and I am happy to do so. You don't need to pay a dime to get what I have, but then you have to work rather hard for it, but free players are gated from nothing at all.
You are talking about a completely different issue than I am. You do not seem to enjoy the game(play) itself, and while you are certainly entitled to that opinion, it is completely irrelevant to the specific subject of "pay 2 win". The simple fact of the matter is, you have a way to get every item in the game store without spending 1 red cent of your own money. Sure, it may take a lot of time investment, but the same is true of getting the top end gear in every MMO. Whether you happen to enjoy the process in this game as much as you do in another game is irrelevant to that fact.
The game is getting the EXACT credit it is due as reviewers are demonstrating and the comment response are in general agreement with. Cryptic really ****ed the game up and just made it into another Asian F2P cash shop generic MMO, this could solely be because of PWI and what many were worried about when the news came out about the acquisition. Looks like the fears came true.
I agree completely.... well almost. I don't think "More tools and abilities for Foundry builders." is critical at this point, that is more a long-term sustaining issue but the other points needs to be resolve ASAP otherwise population will continue to bleed.
I personally don't think it will happen. I have a bad feeling this game will be on life support by the time Wildstar and ESO have released.
Yeah you don't have to spent one cent... but it's gonna make the game a 2nd job. Even for the most basic of commodities that all other MMOs incorperate as part of the games features (by features I mean like professions or a reward one can earn).
WoW deviated from that for a reason, people don't like it. People enjoying the process in obtaining the gear is PERCISELY the relevance of the fact. If the experiance in unenjoyable or repetitive or whatever then it's a failed mechanic. True, all raids to get repetitive over time however having a wide array of different fights which all have specific mechanics is what makes raiding fun and people continue on the gear grind.
Instead of making a fun experience Crytpic went a borish and repetive and grindy route. Players hate being nickled and dimed which is exactly what happens in NW.
So all you are really saying is you don't like the game. That is perfectly fine. There is no one forcing you to play it.
Let them learn the hard way. Your just beating a dead horse. The "warcraft crowd" will smoke thru this game in no time flat, most will leave for Wildstar anyways. (wish that wasn't true, since I'll be there as well) By the time they finish catering to the whiny warcraft crowd and "fixing" pvp and all the other things they are whining about, the D&D crowd, which would have stuck around here for a long time, will have all left. (I'm referring to that crowd that kept the single player nerverwinter titles alive for years after release and those weren't even fully online games and weren't even getting much in the way of content updates)
Let them learn the hard way. Let the fan boy's learn the hard way. All these failed releases will eventually mean better titles in the future. Every gaming company, well those with good games, always take note what has worked and what hasn't worked in other games.
You are confusing two completely separate issues:
1) what determines if something is "pay 2 win"
2) whether you personally enjoy the game
I am only discussing issue #1 in this thread, and the fact of the matter is you can get every single item in the game store without spending any of your money. Yes, it takes time. Lots of time. And that is equally true when it comes to getting the top end gear in every other MMO. But regardless of whether you personally enjoy the grind here as much as you might elsewhere, the fact of the matter is, the game isnt "pay 2 win" when you can get every single item available without paying anything.