Listen, I'm trying to help you guys. I'm offering solutions to the problem that don't involve changing a system that isn't going to change. You need to let go of the idea of Report Spam going away, because it isn't. And instead of picking my ideas apart, you should look how they could work instead of finding ways why they wont work.
This is one of those sad situations where I don't want to have to agree with someone, but reluctantly think they have a point since Cryptic isn't going to change the chat ban system,
Listen, I'm trying to help you guys. I'm offering solutions to the problem that don't involve changing a system that isn't going to change. You need to let go of the idea of Report Spam going away, because it isn't. And instead of picking my ideas apart, you should look how they could work instead of finding ways why they wont work.
I'm not trying to pick apart anything, prior to these recent posts you were trolling (or at least seemed to be). I listed several possible solutions in my first post.
Calm down boys. Facts are this. The report spam feature is a failure Zone in the enclave is still unreadable.
I'm totally calm. The real fact is this: that you can't possibly know how much worse Zone chat would be without the chat-ban feature, and thus have no standing to call it a failure.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
I'm totally calm. The real fact is this: that you can't possibly know how much worse Zone chat would be without the chat-ban feature, and thus have no standing to call it a failure.
It doesn't seem to be asking a lot of Cryptic just to create Trade and LFG channels with strict content and spamming rules. Leave Zone Chat to be the easily ignored Verbal Incontinence Look At Me, Look At Me Channel.
I'm totally calm. The real fact is this: that you can't possibly know how much worse Zone chat would be without the chat-ban feature, and thus have no standing to call it a failure.
Actually, if they left in the ignore feature and left out the chat ban.....it'd be great. One player SHOULD NOT have the power to silence another player. That authority is best left in the hands of game moderators, who can judge impartially.
Actually, if they left in the ignore feature and left out the chat ban.....it'd be great. One player SHOULD NOT have the power to silence another player. That authority is best left in the hands of game moderators, who can judge impartially.
One player doesn't so your point is moot. And Game moderators in PWE games either don't exist or don't do that sort of stuff. Just ignoring a spammer does not visit deterring consequences on them. The PWE system in their games is that this feature is there for the 'community' to police itself. That it is open to unjust silencings through alleged shadowy vendettas isn't going to change that. They certainly don't care enough to hire a few people to listen to players whine and moan all day.
If 20 or whatever people decide that posting 2 trades a minute is spam then it's spam. 10 people posting 2 trades a minute fill the zone chat and I have no trouble if people collectively defined that as spamming.
I KNOW in my bones it is the same group of players banning these people, I know it.
I see. And how long have you had these feelings that there was a cabal of people working behind the scenes against you?
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
You are slick, but not that slick. I never said they were working against me, I never said they were working against anyone. It is how they are made, they are the people that call the police when the neighbor down the road lights off fireworks, the kind of person that runs barbed wire across a river to keep fly-fishermen from enjoying their sport. Typically they are the people that are so miserable with the hand that life has dealt them, that they do whatever they can to make others as miserable. All the while hiding it behind "doing what is right", that way they don't feel even more miserable for being petty.
Sound familiar?
Sounds like you have a lot more familiarity than I do.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Use the custom "trade" channel, and add it to your chat.
Most people do not read forums and don't know that the Custom Trade channel exists.Not to mention that on Dragon there are atleast 5 custom trade channels people have advertised.There are barely more than 20 people there in total.
If I want to sell something I go where most customers are,where most sellers are,where Tier 2 premade groups happen.That place is called Zone Chat.
It is people like you who ban/report people like me if we advertise politely[like most of the channel] long enough /10+ minutes or less depending how many haters are online/.
Your argument is flawed and here is why :
Its the same like me saying that the Zone Chat is intended for selling and that if you want to talk about newbie questions/politics/whatever and so on should go ahead and create a custom ChitChat channel and leave my Zone alone.
I am sure that there are people that sell/buy/LFG who report people that like to chitchat in the Zone too.I dislike that and it is the same as them reporting people that use the zone for another purpose.
So you see we would all benefit if PWE creates official channels and revises the BAN method/duration.
This is not something the community can fix,because people abuse power and only care for themselves and their own interest as demonstrated by your post.
Thanks for the entertainment. I read most of this thread (cut out at around pg. 25, that oughta be enough, eh?) I laughed, I cried. At first I was totally anti-OP, sorta jumped on the self-righteous bandwagon of his responders. Then I really started to 'get' how this system works, and it's true - one night 20 zone chat HAMSTER could be on who don't like trading in chat. ban ban ban. another night, it might be the anti-newbie-question folks. ban ban ban. another night, anti-RP folks. ban ban... wait. nobody RPs in chat. skip that one. in any case, although i don't use chat for anything, i don't much like the idea of 20 folks like some of the ones on this forum having that kind of power. so hopefully they change the system. meanwhile i have no idea what the OP was up to, if anything. maybe he spammed a lot in the past and one of those watchdog HAMSTER groups was out lookin for names they remember. maybe s/he's deliberately misleading us and had done all the spamming 5 minutes before. who knows. i think it has indeed shed light on a chat ban system that is controversial at best, and could certainly be abused. anyway, no dog in this fight, just thought i'd comment from a totally neutral position.
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cr0pMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Not really possible without extensive rewrite. Right now it's an all or nothing thing.
Personally since the op has been pretty much showing that he's the type of person that needs to be silenced once and a while, I'm happy with it the way it is.
So you're the kind of person that just makes things up in order to defend your side of the argument?
Nice to know there's no point in wasting time explaining things to you.
So you're the kind of person that just makes things up in order to defend your side of the argument?
Nice to know there's no point in wasting time explaining things to you.
Actually, Cryptic is on record from back in the CO days saying that very thing.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
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melanko0Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 20Arc User
edited May 2013
While I hate the zone spam, being banned from whisper, group, guild chat and other PW games is a little much.
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gyurdiousMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
In a typical city, do you give all of the civilians guns to exact their own justice on those you 'deem' criminals based on accusation that they did something. He didn't spam, he didn't break the rules. The issue here is giving other players too much power. Any troll or greifer guild can right click. Banning someone who is completely innocent.
Here are a few points:
- AH cannot be used with gold.
- There is no trade chat, no LFG chat.
- A lot of people who are chat banned are indeed guilty, but they're are a lot innocent.
- What is Zone chat for, please tell? If it isn't for LFG, Trade, questions(with answers), or discussion...
- If the player is so annoyed by such things above, they have an option of turning off zone chat.
- Being banned and virtually incapable of playing the game socially is much too powerful a punishment in the hands of other players. Especially where in most instances said players are wrong.
- People with the power to report are immature.
You are stuck on a small point that it will "make them learn". But what you fail to see is it is the wrong people "learning" and the wrong people exacting the punishment. On top of the point that we are not given any means of Trade or LFG besides zone. And no AH does not count as they're are many currencies in game. And the queue does not count as it matches you quite poorly with any sort of capable team. Even if it did, sometimes...you need a better tank or healer. Are you really expecting players to sit around and wait for a queue and requeue over and over, trial and error ... until they get an group worth continuing with?
Not to be biased btw. People who indeed spam, do need to be punished. But a lot of people who are being banned are on the other end of an idiot's sick game, or a person with some sort of bloated sense of authority. Simply because theyre young, or just cant stand to see someone trying to do what is normal in a zone chat. If said person was spamming over n over n over. Report that right away. But one trade post? Amongst many others spamming? Not fair, and quite a mockery of justice.
In a typical city, do you give all of the civilians guns to exact their own justice on those you 'deem' criminals based on accusation that they did something. He didn't spam, he didn't break the rules.
Absurd analogy.
A 24 hour chat-ban is nothing like being shot dead. Furthermore, the people complaining *did* spam, and *did* break the rules. What rules, you ask? The rules of the community.
- A lot of people who are chat banned are indeed guilty, but they're are a lot innocent.
Total conjecture. Even based just on the people coming to the forums to complain, more are guilty than not.
- What is Zone chat for, please tell? If it isn't for LFG, Trade, questions(with answers), or discussion...
It's for whatever the community decides it is for. That's the power delegated to us by Cryptic.
- If the player is so annoyed by such things above, they have an option of turning off zone chat.
So? This is an irrelevant point. How about I turn it around "If the player is so annoyed at being chat banned, they have the option of not logging in."
- Being banned and virtually incapable of playing the game socially is much too powerful a punishment in the hands of other players. Especially where in most instances said players are wrong.
Again, making stuff up doesn't help your position. You have zero evidence that "most instances said players are wrong."
- People with the power to report are immature
The player-base is immature? So far, the most immaturity has been displayed by the people being silenced. The system is working great.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
A 24 hour chat-ban is nothing like being shot dead. Furthermore, the people complaining *did* spam, and *did* break the rules. What rules, you ask? The rules of the community.
Total conjecture. Even based just on the people coming to the forums to complain, more are guilty than not.
It's for whatever the community decides it is for. That's the power delegated to us by Cryptic.
So? This is an irrelevant point. How about I turn it around "If the player is so annoyed at being chat banned, they have the option of not logging in."
Again, making stuff up doesn't help your position. You have zero evidence that "most instances said players are wrong."
The player-base is immature? So far, the most immaturity has been displayed by the people being silenced. The system is working great.
Total fail post. Put down that giant mug of Cryptic coolaid.
There's an easy solution to some of these problems. Instead of making special channels, why not put in another feature like a LFG list? Make the search engine a LOT LOT LOT LOT LOT better than the AH search filters PLEASE! They could easily make the window look something like the AH list as well. That way you can filter out your search for say... A wizard that's between the levels of 20-29 that's open to anything like skirmishes, dungeon crawls, or just questing.
The banning from just zone chat would work wonderfully and is a great idea. Instead of making it ban you from EVERYthing.
They could also use a special ticket system as well? Say, investigate any claims of /ignore or /spamreport abuse. With the people filing their grievances being warned beforehand that if their claims are found to be false, they'll get slapped with a week LONG ban rather than just a 24 hour ban. If their claims are found to be valid, the people that did the /ignore or /spamreport would get hit with the 24 hour ban instead. That should correct the situation of people, guilds, and/or groups of people that are doing stuff like that from doing it. It would help to keep them honest.
Sadly... With my experiences with Cryptic coming from CO, I know they'll never change this system at all. The LFG list I'd absolutely looooooooove and I'm sure everyone else would as well. You could easily make it show character name and user handle with GS ratings and how many times they've successfully completed certain dungeons. The GS rating is kind of important, but the success rate is also important as well I think. This would be a strong indicator of experience with whatever dungeon the leader is looking for. The flip side to that would be that the ones with less successes under their belts would get asked less. I think that it IS important though because GS, while useful, is NOT a good indicator of experience. You can EASILY bump up your GS with just a short, and fairly inexpensive trip to the AH.
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair" Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time. "Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
Total fail post. Put down that giant mug of Cryptic coolaid.
Actually, his post was well reasoned and thought out. Your lack of a counterpoint seems aimed from under a bridge.
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gyurdiousMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
A response pointing out that i have no evidence of the maturity of any player in the game...is quite a broadspectrum way to view things. The analogy was not meant to point out the crime, or the punishment's severity, but the people who are given such power.
They gave you power to choose what the zone chat is for, that is ridiculous. A complete god-minded sense is one where everyone is going to agree with your logic on what the rules are. No way in hell is everyone going to agree what the rules are in zone chat, so you have absolute chaos in the form of law makers. A bunch of children in the sandbox saying, "You're not allowed to do that!!". Because they don't like it.
The only solution to this is have a trade chat, and LFG chat. Which effectively and officially designates those functions in specific areas. Zone is then reserved for asking questions, or simple discussion.
Much more appropriate than giving every single player the option to prevent any other player from communicating completely.
I have no idea how any of you Pro-community law lovers can fail to see that this is complete chaos in the making.
Comments
This is one of those sad situations where I don't want to have to agree with someone, but reluctantly think they have a point since Cryptic isn't going to change the chat ban system,
I'm not trying to pick apart anything, prior to these recent posts you were trolling (or at least seemed to be). I listed several possible solutions in my first post.
I'm totally calm. The real fact is this: that you can't possibly know how much worse Zone chat would be without the chat-ban feature, and thus have no standing to call it a failure.
I can't read a **** thing in those pictures. And they don't magnify. Way to prove your point, I guess?
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
It doesn't seem to be asking a lot of Cryptic just to create Trade and LFG channels with strict content and spamming rules. Leave Zone Chat to be the easily ignored Verbal Incontinence Look At Me, Look At Me Channel.
Actually, if they left in the ignore feature and left out the chat ban.....it'd be great. One player SHOULD NOT have the power to silence another player. That authority is best left in the hands of game moderators, who can judge impartially.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
One player doesn't so your point is moot. And Game moderators in PWE games either don't exist or don't do that sort of stuff. Just ignoring a spammer does not visit deterring consequences on them. The PWE system in their games is that this feature is there for the 'community' to police itself. That it is open to unjust silencings through alleged shadowy vendettas isn't going to change that. They certainly don't care enough to hire a few people to listen to players whine and moan all day.
If 20 or whatever people decide that posting 2 trades a minute is spam then it's spam. 10 people posting 2 trades a minute fill the zone chat and I have no trouble if people collectively defined that as spamming.
You know nothing of the sort.
I see. And how long have you had these feelings that there was a cabal of people working behind the scenes against you?
Use the custom "trade" channel, and add it to your chat.
People are not working against you, you are working against the people, who actually want to read, and not to guess in the zonechat.
You will be banned from chat again and again, untill YOU learn.
Sounds like you have a lot more familiarity than I do.
If I want to sell something I go where most customers are,where most sellers are,where Tier 2 premade groups happen.That place is called Zone Chat.
It is people like you who ban/report people like me if we advertise politely[like most of the channel] long enough /10+ minutes or less depending how many haters are online/.
Your argument is flawed and here is why :
Its the same like me saying that the Zone Chat is intended for selling and that if you want to talk about newbie questions/politics/whatever and so on should go ahead and create a custom ChitChat channel and leave my Zone alone.
I am sure that there are people that sell/buy/LFG who report people that like to chitchat in the Zone too.I dislike that and it is the same as them reporting people that use the zone for another purpose.
So you see we would all benefit if PWE creates official channels and revises the BAN method/duration.
This is not something the community can fix,because people abuse power and only care for themselves and their own interest as demonstrated by your post.
So you're the kind of person that just makes things up in order to defend your side of the argument?
Nice to know there's no point in wasting time explaining things to you.
Actually, Cryptic is on record from back in the CO days saying that very thing.
Here are a few points:
- AH cannot be used with gold.
- There is no trade chat, no LFG chat.
- A lot of people who are chat banned are indeed guilty, but they're are a lot innocent.
- What is Zone chat for, please tell? If it isn't for LFG, Trade, questions(with answers), or discussion...
- If the player is so annoyed by such things above, they have an option of turning off zone chat.
- Being banned and virtually incapable of playing the game socially is much too powerful a punishment in the hands of other players. Especially where in most instances said players are wrong.
- People with the power to report are immature.
You are stuck on a small point that it will "make them learn". But what you fail to see is it is the wrong people "learning" and the wrong people exacting the punishment. On top of the point that we are not given any means of Trade or LFG besides zone. And no AH does not count as they're are many currencies in game. And the queue does not count as it matches you quite poorly with any sort of capable team. Even if it did, sometimes...you need a better tank or healer. Are you really expecting players to sit around and wait for a queue and requeue over and over, trial and error ... until they get an group worth continuing with?
Not to be biased btw. People who indeed spam, do need to be punished. But a lot of people who are being banned are on the other end of an idiot's sick game, or a person with some sort of bloated sense of authority. Simply because theyre young, or just cant stand to see someone trying to do what is normal in a zone chat. If said person was spamming over n over n over. Report that right away. But one trade post? Amongst many others spamming? Not fair, and quite a mockery of justice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juc69G6F-q0
Absurd analogy.
A 24 hour chat-ban is nothing like being shot dead. Furthermore, the people complaining *did* spam, and *did* break the rules. What rules, you ask? The rules of the community.
Total conjecture. Even based just on the people coming to the forums to complain, more are guilty than not.
It's for whatever the community decides it is for. That's the power delegated to us by Cryptic.
So? This is an irrelevant point. How about I turn it around "If the player is so annoyed at being chat banned, they have the option of not logging in."
Again, making stuff up doesn't help your position. You have zero evidence that "most instances said players are wrong."
The player-base is immature? So far, the most immaturity has been displayed by the people being silenced. The system is working great.
Total fail post. Put down that giant mug of Cryptic coolaid.
The banning from just zone chat would work wonderfully and is a great idea. Instead of making it ban you from EVERYthing.
They could also use a special ticket system as well? Say, investigate any claims of /ignore or /spamreport abuse. With the people filing their grievances being warned beforehand that if their claims are found to be false, they'll get slapped with a week LONG ban rather than just a 24 hour ban. If their claims are found to be valid, the people that did the /ignore or /spamreport would get hit with the 24 hour ban instead. That should correct the situation of people, guilds, and/or groups of people that are doing stuff like that from doing it. It would help to keep them honest.
Sadly... With my experiences with Cryptic coming from CO, I know they'll never change this system at all. The LFG list I'd absolutely looooooooove and I'm sure everyone else would as well. You could easily make it show character name and user handle with GS ratings and how many times they've successfully completed certain dungeons. The GS rating is kind of important, but the success rate is also important as well I think. This would be a strong indicator of experience with whatever dungeon the leader is looking for. The flip side to that would be that the ones with less successes under their belts would get asked less. I think that it IS important though because GS, while useful, is NOT a good indicator of experience. You can EASILY bump up your GS with just a short, and fairly inexpensive trip to the AH.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair"
Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time.
"Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
Actually, his post was well reasoned and thought out. Your lack of a counterpoint seems aimed from under a bridge.
They gave you power to choose what the zone chat is for, that is ridiculous. A complete god-minded sense is one where everyone is going to agree with your logic on what the rules are. No way in hell is everyone going to agree what the rules are in zone chat, so you have absolute chaos in the form of law makers. A bunch of children in the sandbox saying, "You're not allowed to do that!!". Because they don't like it.
The only solution to this is have a trade chat, and LFG chat. Which effectively and officially designates those functions in specific areas. Zone is then reserved for asking questions, or simple discussion.
Much more appropriate than giving every single player the option to prevent any other player from communicating completely.
I have no idea how any of you Pro-community law lovers can fail to see that this is complete chaos in the making.
Because we cannot see the future. Give it some time to see how it works out. As it stands now, it looks quite promising.