gyurdiousMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
A response pointing out that i have no evidence of the maturity of any player in the game...is quite a broadspectrum way to view things. The analogy was not meant to point out the crime, or the punishment's severity, but the people who are given such power.
They gave you power to choose what the zone chat is for, that is ridiculous. A complete god-minded sense is one where everyone is going to agree with your logic on what the rules are. No way in hell is everyone going to agree what the rules are in zone chat, so you have absolute chaos in the form of law makers. A bunch of children in the sandbox saying, "You're not allowed to do that!!". Because they don't like it.
The only solution to this is have a trade chat, and LFG chat. Which effectively and officially designates those functions in specific areas. Zone is then reserved for asking questions, or simple discussion.
Much more appropriate than giving every single player the option to prevent any other player from communicating completely.
I have no idea how any of you Pro-community law lovers can fail to see that this is complete chaos in the making.
Because we cannot see the future. Give it some time to see how it works out. As it stands now, it looks quite promising.
Everything deserves a chance. I just, really really do not trust some of the players I see. If victims of spamming have that power....so do the spammers. That is my main point. But again, everything deserves a chance. If it evens out...matures a bit. It could be an effective solution.
That said, the game could benefit from both a trade and lfg chat...to filter out the need to exact such justice. Then this system would be quite fair indeed. For there would be absolutely no reason to post in zone, other than to ask a question or discuss a patch or w/e.
Anyway mates, good night. And all I ask is, think before you report. Or warn those you are going to report. Some people really don't deserve such a ban.
Because we cannot see the future. Give it some time to see how it works out. As it stands now, it looks quite promising.
No. It doesn't. Zone chat is a mess, innocent people do get banned even if you refuse to believe it and think i'm making this up for some reason. Forcing them to play solo or not play at all for 24 hours if they don't have access to other player's VOIP.
You've come into this thread to spout off about nothing, and keep saying "the system works."
You have yet to give one argument as to why it's necessary to have every chat banned with the report spam function.
You have refused to offer any solutions to a valid problem.
You're just here letting out hot air, go bother some other thread.
The simple answer is that it's the only thing available. In order to ban people from specific chat channels would take a lot of reprogramming, and is a very low priority in the face of other more glaring bugs and problems.
And...as to this;
I've given several quite viable options for you and the dissenters to build upon, which you have chosen to dismiss or ignore. It's not my fault that you choose to be destructive rather than constructive.
First of all, I wasn't quoting you so i didnt' need a response from you. Unless both accounts are you, which would make sense.......
And it would not take a lot of reprogramming. It's actually very basic...... If you don't know how programming works please go educate yourself about it.
Your solutions aren't complete solutions. They are a work around that takes a lot of work from the community and still leaves all chat bans in place to be abused.
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cr0pMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The simple answer is that it's the only thing available. In order to ban people from specific chat channels would take a lot of reprogramming, and is a very low priority in the face of other more glaring bugs and problems.
And...as to this;
I've given several quite viable options for you and the dissenters to build upon, which you have chosen to dismiss or ignore. It's not my fault that you choose to be destructive rather than constructive.
You honestly think the current implementation of chat ban is fair? You think it's okay for people to be able to single innocent players out and degrade their online experience just for fun?
They could leave the ban system in place and reduce the time to ten minutes and it would still dissuade players from abusing the system enough without causing players to leave the game in frustration, and with less reward for those who are using the system for no other reason than to grief.
The players abusing the system to grief are far more destructive than those being banned from spamming.
No this is my one and only account, yes I know a thing or two about programming and judging by your comment, quite a bit more than you. And no I did not give complete ideas, because this isn't something that is an issue for me, it's something I care very little about. I am trying to help you, give you starting point so you can be constructive and solve the problem yourselves instead of coming here and whining about something that isn't going to change.
I promise you, you don't know more about programming than me
And it is not a major overhaul. That's all i'm saying.
I promise you, you don't know more about programming than me
And it is not a major overhaul. That's all i'm saying.
You are full of it. Any programmer with real experience would never say fixing code that he hasn't seen is easy.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Your promise means nothing on the internet, sadly. It's all sound and fury signifying nothing.
The chat ban is very basic coding, it simply denies all text from being sent. To do what you are saying would require a new system, and would be very time consuming. In a situation where there are far more important and significant things to fix, this is something that is very far down the list.
No. It wouldn't.
In fact look at every other MMO that doesn't use this system, if this was the easiest system to code other MMOs would use it. It would literally take any programmer worth his salt 15 minutes to add an exception to the ban rule. I will type it out for you even, if you really want to get extreme.
But enough picking straws, it's an issue that needs to be fixed. Even if it means not letting people report spam that leads to a ban.
In this thread I have yet to hear of one instance of the system being abused. All I've seen is a bunch of people spamming trade in zone chat and getting chat banned.
Also, yes you can absolutely peddle your wares without persecution - in the trade channel.
I wasnt' spamming anything. You can keep accusing me, but at this point that's moot. It's about getting banned from all forms of communication.
And what trade channel? The "player made" one? There's 2 - 3 people in that channel at any given time. It's not a viable solution.
Spamming trade has turned a helpful channel for new players and a channel for general advice into a moray that floods a page of text every 3 seconds or so. So ANY trade chat is spam.
If you have a problem with the popularity of the player made trade channel, there's a solution to that too; popularize it!
Zone chat, is zone chat. Is this your first MMO? It sounds like it. There are no rules for zone chat. It is what it is. In a main city you can't reasonably expect it not to be spam, in any game. New players will get help in their zones outside of the city.
But again, I DO NOT CARE about a zone ban, I care about a BAN FROM ALL FORMS OF COMMUNICATION. You are failing to grasp this so I will not entertain you with more responses to your garble.
A 24 hour chat-ban is nothing like being shot dead. Furthermore, the people complaining *did* spam, and *did* break the rules. What rules, you ask? The rules of the community.
Rather say then they are given a set of brass knuckles so they can then go around punching people in the mouth because they don't like what other people are talking about and this way keeping them silent for 24 hrs or so. The people doing the reporting do not "speak for the community", only for themselves. I surely never gave anyone leave to speak on my behalf here or in game and can't help but think many would agree with me on this point
Total conjecture. Even based just on the people coming to the forums to complain, more are guilty than not.
Total conjecture on your part as well, you cannot prove anything you say. You are just assuming such because peeps come to the forums and post while still upset. I will grant you many peeps that do post hurt their cause more often than not but that proves nothing. No one can really prove anything one way or the other and what about those that this happens to yet don't bother to come here and post about it? So what is it? Guilty until proven innocent or innocent until proven guilty?
It's for whatever the community decides it is for. That's the power delegated to us by Cryptic.
You mean a group of people have decided this by themselves wihtout the whole community speaking on it and are trying to ram this policy down every ones throat by being ITG's. I surely do not remember any voting about zone chat and what we as a community would allow or not allow!
Cryptic has given this power and put no guidelines to it with no penalties for abusing it.
So? This is an irrelevant point. How about I turn it around "If the player is so annoyed at being chat banned, they have the option of not logging in."
You are missing his point. If peeps will be forced to create silly custom channels for trade then we could easily tell you if you don't like it make a custom channel with your own specific set of rules and turn zone off yourself. Why not a channel for lore talks and another for balance issues talks etc etc. Making up rules for zone chat can go both ways not just the way you would prefer and the same goes for the turn zone chat off and go to channels as has been suggested by others
Again, making stuff up doesn't help your position. You have zero evidence that "most instances said players are wrong."
Granted this is not a fact, its conjecture on his part but you cannot not say he is wrong without it being conjecture yourself. Your blank statements that the community is mature and doing a great job is also not factual but pure conjecture/opinion, acting like your opinions are facts but his are not hurts your position just as much.
The player-base is immature? So far, the most immaturity has been displayed by the people being silenced. The system is working great.
MMO forums are more often than not at good source of what the player base is like, it doesn't mean all the player base is the same and you can't really judge by this method in either way. You are again stating your opinions like it was a fact without proof other than you believe it to be so yet would call others out for doing the same thing.
There are way to many people that just don't post in these forums that play the game to be able to even make an educated guess on this point. You believe the system is working, great!!!
Here's a new flash though, many people believe it is not.
yeah people are definitely not abusing the system
How long do you think until this spreads and every1 knows about it and you start getting chat banned for failing/leaving a dungeon or undercutting other people or loosing a match in PvP or whatever?
Putting someone on your ignore list is different than Report Spamming someone.
no it is not.Not to mention it is really easy to be able to get the Report Spam button as long as you know someone's @handle
[I wont give a details here but its not really hard once you open the social pannel]
I'm surprised no one has made 20 accounts to see how many people they can chat ban yet.
Im guessing when this gets a little popular all the forums trolls and going to have a silence fest
And people will stop playing once they are silenced ---> PWE loosing money, we loosing content,fixes,customer support,man power and so on.
Actually its, Report Spam has a very specific instruction attached to it that simply ignoring doesn't.
And your proof is ?Considering the data we have from this thread is that if enough people ignore you you will get muted.
The madness is spreading right now from what i can tell from the /zone chat
I will try and whisper some of those people ignored to see if they can reply to me , this will confirm your theory , stay tuned .
Also as soon as you add someone to your ignore list you get a chat message in which you can click Report spam and boy are people writing guides in the zone chat at the moment.
well i got ignored by the supposed 'ninjas' , didn't get any messages back
Just hope i dont get silenced again for whispering and asking them to reply if they are not silenced or add me as friends if they are.
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romandaemonMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
Hard to get a sense of humor when I cannot whisper, use party chat, or use guild chat for 24 hours. Then I come bring the issue up on the forums to get flamed by a bunch of children because I "spammed" zone chat. While I've made it very clear I don't care about being banned from zone chat.
How are you still not understanding this...being banned from ALL channels is your punishment for posting rubbish in Zone.
Don't want to be banned from all chats? Don't spam zone...i mean it's pretty clear..
How are you still not understanding this...being banned from ALL channels is your punishment for posting rubbish in Zone.
Don't want to be banned from all chats? Don't spam zone...i mean it's pretty clear..
If you bothered to read the thread you would've seen that people get bans without spamming.I theoretically could right now log in and ignore you and ask my guildies to do it aswell and you would get chat banned from all PWE games for posting here on this forum.How would you like that?Does it sound fair?Is that pretty clear?
I could also say in /zone saying @romandaemon just ninjaed cleric helm just to be sure and get 200 other people to report spam you and feel good about themselves thinking they punished a ninja.
LF1M: GFW/TR/CW for tier 2 DD runs! pst w/ GS and class.
posted that 3 times in 45 seconds and got a 24 hour chat ban.
3 times in 45 seconds might seem like a lot, but when your message leaves an expanded chat window in less than 5 seconds I think it's safe to post again a few seconds after that for the new players constantly entering the area.
If you report somebody for spamming then they should be put onto your ignore list until you remove them. There is no real penalty for reporting somebody for spam and this system doesn't work because of that. If I get reported for spamming by somebody I want them to go onto MY ignore list and I should be placed on theirs as well. This will avoid a lot of head aches.
It would be interesting to see how many people report others for spamming when they're looking to create a party and then can't ever join a party of the people they reported.
I disabled zone chat on day one in Champions Online, and I disabled zone chat on day one in Neverwinter. In both cases, not even 60 seconds passed before I ripped that sucker out of there. I knew all about the quality of the channel before I arrived. Yes, the reputation of zone chat is that infamous. I instead use the "Default" chat tab for two channels that are stuffed with awesome people and those two channels are global across all of Cryptic's games.
And did you know there's a /hide and /unhide command? I use that a lot. If I was silenced, I guess I'd have another nice, quiet night in Neverwinter. I sure as heck wouldn't mention it to anybody. I never give credit to a scumbag looking for credit.
Cryptic's chat-banning system has gained a fair bit of infamy too; I've seen it discussed in other, non-Cryptic games global channels. I've never been silenced and it's not really my fight, but I've never cared for the idea behind it either (12 year-olds wearing sheriff's badges). I've also never been able to wholeheartedly rally against it, because, you know (12 year-olds wielding complete anonymity and free from accountability)....
Regardless, if you're looking for a battle to pick, I'd keep looking. Cryptic is willing to weather the storm for this feature, and they've stayed silent or defended it in far more riotous threads and even negative PR from gaming press articles. It's baked into their cross-game system and they're not pulling it. The "We're looking into it line" is newer; it's also standard for Neverwinter's forums. In CO's forums, the response is complete silence or "the system is working as intended". And since the system is global across all games, a CR response about this in CO's forums might as well be a CR response in NW's forums. Different forum, exact same system.
_
[SIGPIC]Captain Electric and the Sapien Spider[/SIGPIC]
LF1M: GFW/TR/CW for tier 2 DD runs! pst w/ GS and class.
posted that 3 times in 45 seconds and got a 24 hour chat ban.
3 times in 45 seconds might seem like a lot, but when your message leaves an expanded chat window in less than 5 seconds I think it's safe to post again a few seconds after that for the new players constantly entering the area.
That's can be spamming in my book. It only takes a handful of others doing the same thing for zone Chat to be what it often is - just a blur of people posting and reposting sale stuff. If the chat zone is quiet then maybe it's not spamming but in this case people thought it was and acted.
You do not have a right to take whatever action you see fit to get your personal messages across. Or if you do then others have the Cryptic-given right to take action also.
How about being silenced for a SINGLE message?
Why should I even bother logging in for the next 24hrs?
In before people want you to go back farther into your chat log, but I guess it is your fault according to people in this thread. You did after all post a WTS in zone chat.
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romandaemonMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited May 2013
Now what you just described is pure abuse of the system...I would simply file a ticket to report that.
Fine, there are wait times, no big deal. It takes 5 minutes to file one every day, if I need to.
I play maybe an hour a day, so 24 hour ban to anything in ONE video game, means squat to me. It's a casual game to me, I want to relax and have fun. When I can't see my buddies whispers, because people keep trying to sell their junk, it irritates me and I report as Spam. It is really very simple.
I do NOT need to see anyone selling anything in the Zone channel, because it is very annoying and apparently quite a lot of people and devs also agree, hence...feature works. This is a game, not a flee market, go kill some stuff instead.
That's can be spamming in my book. It only takes a handful of others doing the same thing for zone Chat to be what it often is - just a blur of people posting and reposting sale stuff. If the chat zone is quiet then maybe it's not spamming but in this case people thought it was and acted.
You do not have a right to take whatever action you see fit to get your personal messages across. Or if you do then others have the Cryptic-given right to take action also.
Will it be spam in your book if i just logged on all shards and said @gsundered11 ninjaed my cleric helm please report spam ?
2-3 messages in 4 minutes is nothing considering PWE is forcing us to use zone chat for LFG ,trade,newbie help and political debates.
Comments
They gave you power to choose what the zone chat is for, that is ridiculous. A complete god-minded sense is one where everyone is going to agree with your logic on what the rules are. No way in hell is everyone going to agree what the rules are in zone chat, so you have absolute chaos in the form of law makers. A bunch of children in the sandbox saying, "You're not allowed to do that!!". Because they don't like it.
The only solution to this is have a trade chat, and LFG chat. Which effectively and officially designates those functions in specific areas. Zone is then reserved for asking questions, or simple discussion.
Much more appropriate than giving every single player the option to prevent any other player from communicating completely.
I have no idea how any of you Pro-community law lovers can fail to see that this is complete chaos in the making.
Because we cannot see the future. Give it some time to see how it works out. As it stands now, it looks quite promising.
Everything deserves a chance. I just, really really do not trust some of the players I see. If victims of spamming have that power....so do the spammers. That is my main point. But again, everything deserves a chance. If it evens out...matures a bit. It could be an effective solution.
That said, the game could benefit from both a trade and lfg chat...to filter out the need to exact such justice. Then this system would be quite fair indeed. For there would be absolutely no reason to post in zone, other than to ask a question or discuss a patch or w/e.
Anyway mates, good night. And all I ask is, think before you report. Or warn those you are going to report. Some people really don't deserve such a ban.
No. It doesn't. Zone chat is a mess, innocent people do get banned even if you refuse to believe it and think i'm making this up for some reason. Forcing them to play solo or not play at all for 24 hours if they don't have access to other player's VOIP.
You've come into this thread to spout off about nothing, and keep saying "the system works."
You have yet to give one argument as to why it's necessary to have every chat banned with the report spam function.
You have refused to offer any solutions to a valid problem.
You're just here letting out hot air, go bother some other thread.
First of all, I wasn't quoting you so i didnt' need a response from you. Unless both accounts are you, which would make sense.......
And it would not take a lot of reprogramming. It's actually very basic...... If you don't know how programming works please go educate yourself about it.
Your solutions aren't complete solutions. They are a work around that takes a lot of work from the community and still leaves all chat bans in place to be abused.
You honestly think the current implementation of chat ban is fair? You think it's okay for people to be able to single innocent players out and degrade their online experience just for fun?
They could leave the ban system in place and reduce the time to ten minutes and it would still dissuade players from abusing the system enough without causing players to leave the game in frustration, and with less reward for those who are using the system for no other reason than to grief.
The players abusing the system to grief are far more destructive than those being banned from spamming.
I promise you, you don't know more about programming than me
And it is not a major overhaul. That's all i'm saying.
doesn't justify people abusing the system, folks should be able to auction their wares w/o being persecuted
system needs changed its a mmo for christsake get your AH only talk outta here Mr. Anti Social
Loki < The Illuminati > 60 - Control Wizard
Protocol 60 - Great Weapon Fighter
You are full of it. Any programmer with real experience would never say fixing code that he hasn't seen is easy.
No. It wouldn't.
In fact look at every other MMO that doesn't use this system, if this was the easiest system to code other MMOs would use it. It would literally take any programmer worth his salt 15 minutes to add an exception to the ban rule. I will type it out for you even, if you really want to get extreme.
But enough picking straws, it's an issue that needs to be fixed. Even if it means not letting people report spam that leads to a ban.
The ban needs to be zone only or not at all.
I wasnt' spamming anything. You can keep accusing me, but at this point that's moot. It's about getting banned from all forms of communication.
And what trade channel? The "player made" one? There's 2 - 3 people in that channel at any given time. It's not a viable solution.
Zone chat, is zone chat. Is this your first MMO? It sounds like it. There are no rules for zone chat. It is what it is. In a main city you can't reasonably expect it not to be spam, in any game. New players will get help in their zones outside of the city.
But again, I DO NOT CARE about a zone ban, I care about a BAN FROM ALL FORMS OF COMMUNICATION. You are failing to grasp this so I will not entertain you with more responses to your garble.
See my replies in green.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
yeah people are definitely not abusing the system
How long do you think until this spreads and every1 knows about it and you start getting chat banned for failing/leaving a dungeon or undercutting other people or loosing a match in PvP or whatever?
no it is not.Not to mention it is really easy to be able to get the Report Spam button as long as you know someone's @handle
[I wont give a details here but its not really hard once you open the social pannel]
Im guessing when this gets a little popular all the forums trolls and going to have a silence fest
And people will stop playing once they are silenced ---> PWE loosing money, we loosing content,fixes,customer support,man power and so on.
And your proof is ?Considering the data we have from this thread is that if enough people ignore you you will get muted.
The madness is spreading right now from what i can tell from the /zone chat
I will try and whisper some of those people ignored to see if they can reply to me , this will confirm your theory , stay tuned .
Also as soon as you add someone to your ignore list you get a chat message in which you can click Report spam and boy are people writing guides in the zone chat at the moment.
Just hope i dont get silenced again for whispering and asking them to reply if they are not silenced or add me as friends if they are.
How are you still not understanding this...being banned from ALL channels is your punishment for posting rubbish in Zone.
Don't want to be banned from all chats? Don't spam zone...i mean it's pretty clear..
If you bothered to read the thread you would've seen that people get bans without spamming.I theoretically could right now log in and ignore you and ask my guildies to do it aswell and you would get chat banned from all PWE games for posting here on this forum.How would you like that?Does it sound fair?Is that pretty clear?
I could also say in /zone saying @romandaemon just ninjaed cleric helm just to be sure and get 200 other people to report spam you and feel good about themselves thinking they punished a ninja.
Do you think I should be able to do this?
posted that 3 times in 45 seconds and got a 24 hour chat ban.
3 times in 45 seconds might seem like a lot, but when your message leaves an expanded chat window in less than 5 seconds I think it's safe to post again a few seconds after that for the new players constantly entering the area.
If you report somebody for spamming then they should be put onto your ignore list until you remove them. There is no real penalty for reporting somebody for spam and this system doesn't work because of that. If I get reported for spamming by somebody I want them to go onto MY ignore list and I should be placed on theirs as well. This will avoid a lot of head aches.
It would be interesting to see how many people report others for spamming when they're looking to create a party and then can't ever join a party of the people they reported.
And did you know there's a /hide and /unhide command? I use that a lot. If I was silenced, I guess I'd have another nice, quiet night in Neverwinter. I sure as heck wouldn't mention it to anybody. I never give credit to a scumbag looking for credit.
Cryptic's chat-banning system has gained a fair bit of infamy too; I've seen it discussed in other, non-Cryptic games global channels. I've never been silenced and it's not really my fight, but I've never cared for the idea behind it either (12 year-olds wearing sheriff's badges). I've also never been able to wholeheartedly rally against it, because, you know (12 year-olds wielding complete anonymity and free from accountability)....
Regardless, if you're looking for a battle to pick, I'd keep looking. Cryptic is willing to weather the storm for this feature, and they've stayed silent or defended it in far more riotous threads and even negative PR from gaming press articles. It's baked into their cross-game system and they're not pulling it. The "We're looking into it line" is newer; it's also standard for Neverwinter's forums. In CO's forums, the response is complete silence or "the system is working as intended". And since the system is global across all games, a CR response about this in CO's forums might as well be a CR response in NW's forums. Different forum, exact same system.
[SIGPIC]Captain Electric and the Sapien Spider[/SIGPIC]
"YES, PLEASE"
Vote YES for the Foundry in Champions Online.
@Captain-Electric | CoH/Virtue veteran | Proud new Champion
Why should I even bother logging in for the next 24hrs?
Not surprised. Posting something 3 times in 45 seconds is most definitely spamming.
Try thinking before you post next time.
The X Factor Campaign NWS-DCO7OKB6F
Quest #1: The Morning After NW-D13LX4M93
Quest #2 Coming Soon!
Just for fun - Night of the Werebeast! NW-DT5EIZKZZ
That's can be spamming in my book. It only takes a handful of others doing the same thing for zone Chat to be what it often is - just a blur of people posting and reposting sale stuff. If the chat zone is quiet then maybe it's not spamming but in this case people thought it was and acted.
You do not have a right to take whatever action you see fit to get your personal messages across. Or if you do then others have the Cryptic-given right to take action also.
In before people want you to go back farther into your chat log, but I guess it is your fault according to people in this thread. You did after all post a WTS in zone chat.
Fine, there are wait times, no big deal. It takes 5 minutes to file one every day, if I need to.
I play maybe an hour a day, so 24 hour ban to anything in ONE video game, means squat to me. It's a casual game to me, I want to relax and have fun. When I can't see my buddies whispers, because people keep trying to sell their junk, it irritates me and I report as Spam. It is really very simple.
I do NOT need to see anyone selling anything in the Zone channel, because it is very annoying and apparently quite a lot of people and devs also agree, hence...feature works. This is a game, not a flee market, go kill some stuff instead.
Are you understanding this a little better now?
2-3 messages in 4 minutes is nothing considering PWE is forcing us to use zone chat for LFG ,trade,newbie help and political debates.
People writing 1 line getting muted.
People asking other people to report spam someone just because they don't like him or whatever reason.
The list goes on.This thread is now 43 pages and the most discussed one.
The feedback is clear.The silence/flagged as spammer system is
BROKEN / ABUSABLE AND BEING ABUSED
Let's discuss some ideas on how to fix it and relay it to the CM's.