shroommageMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Before I get to my post, I'm going to post an image that I want every single one of you to look at very closely.
If your writing in any way resembles anything green or below, please refrain from posting.
Now, onto my actual post.
First, the problem.
The system, though effective for hindering spammers, is very easily abused. Suppose there is a group of 20 or more players who have no qualms about chat banning players they don't like or don't agree with. Suppose these players share a guild. Suppose that any time one of them encounters someone they want banned, they simply post that player's name and handle in guild chat, and everyone in the guild reports that player. All of these things are possible given the current system.
Now suppose that instead of banning players they don't like, they ban everyone they see. It would be possible, even easy, for them to stand in PE, banning every single user that speaks in zone chat. In fact, to avoid being discovered and banned, they could even create alternate accounts. This would cause some obvious problems for everyone.
Next, the solution.
Cryptic has made it pretty clear that they have absolutely no intention of changing the system. It's cheap and easy for them. They've stated that reprogramming it would be unfeasible. Given the similarities (including recurring bugs) of every game that uses their engine, I'm inclined to believe them. They definitely don't want to fix it.
The creation of official trade and LFG channels would result in a great reduction of frivolous bannings, but the hypothetical griefing guild I mentioned is still very possible. This would also have no effect on people reporting their competitors.
The AD exploits had been floating around for a long time and were allegedly brought to Cryptic's attention. Regardless of whether or not these claims were true, Cryptic only acted when the problem was so severe that it threatened the entire game. I have no intention of reporting people falsely, but I feel that the problem should be brought to the attention of the community at large, beyond this forum.
Your promise means nothing on the internet, sadly. It's all sound and fury signifying nothing.
The chat ban is very basic coding, it simply denies all text from being sent. To do what you are saying would require a new system, and would be very time consuming. In a situation where there are far more important and significant things to fix, this is something that is very far down the list.
Right up until the point where it victimizes you. I'm not willing to wait for that time.
Actually, if they left in the ignore feature and left out the chat ban.....it'd be great. One player SHOULD NOT have the power to silence another player. That authority is best left in the hands of game moderators, who can judge impartially.
This guy has the perfect solution. I agree. Strip the chat ban function totally out and leave the ignore in. Best of both worlds.
Wow, you're caustic. You must be from League of Legends. I hear they have one of the most caustic communities out there.
I suggest holding your breath for 45 seconds, then it'll certainly seem like a long time.
Try thinking before doing anything at all next time, please.
Nothing wrong with his initial remark. Posting the same comment multiple times in less than a minute is going to be considered spamming by many in the community.
Although he could have done without the vapid insult at the end there.
And report spam does nothing to stop the spam other than removing one player out of the thousands from chatting at all. Until a real solution is put in place zone chat will never change.
Yes it does. Just this morning I reported as spam, amidst all the other trading spam, someone just posting numbers like 1111, 222 etc. They went. In about 30 seconds most of the other trade spammers also vanished and for a time peace was restored. It's draconian and maybe on occasions, unfair. But that's the system and it does what it does and you know how it works. If you don't want to lose all channels then think twice about repeat posting trades because all the complaining on forums in the world is not going to change it. And as you've already confessed to using the Chat channel to grief other people just to make what you imagine is a good point then the more time you spend silenced the better for the rest of us.
Yes it does. Just this morning I reported as spam, amidst all the other trading spam, someone just posting numbers like 1111, 222 etc. They went. In about 30 seconds most of the other trade spammers also vanished and for a time peace was restored. It's draconian and maybe on occasions, unfair. But that's the system and it does what it does and you know how it works. If you don't want to lose all channels then think twice about repeat posting trades because all the complaining on forums in the world is not going to change it. And as you've already confessed to using the Chat channel to grief other people just to make what you imagine is a good point then the more time you spend silenced the better for the rest of us.
I never said I used the chat channel to grief... I don't use the zone channel to spam. You are mincing my words.
I said I use the report function for what I see fit just to create awareness. Like you said, you report people that list trades I can also use it to report whoever.
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calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I never said I used the chat channel to grief... I don't use the zone channel to spam. You are mincing my words.
I said I use the report function for what I see fit just to create awareness.
Griefing. The word you are looking for is 'griefing'. I'm so glad I was here to clear that one up for you.
I report people who spam. trading I don't mind. spam trading I do.
Look - here's a hint. You're really not as clever as you think you are. Your 'arguments' are just opinions, variants on 'it's not fair' or weasel-wording.
as things stand, and as things have stood in all PWE games, if a number of people think you are spamming then you are spamming. Deal with it in ways other than childish griefing of other people. Jesus - what are you? Twelve or something? Grow up.
I'm glad it works this way. People with a cap locks key problem deserve to learn to play nice. People that spam deserve to learn to play nice. People that are just plain intentionally annoying or mean also deserve it. MMO play in general has become a cesspool of degenerate chat from people that, in any other venue of life, are perfectly capable of getting along.
The screenshot doesn't say beans, the timestamps are all the same minute. What did the last minute say? How often was it up there? Had you been once a minute or two for hours and hours? Was something else on there earlier that made a pile of people angry, and one guy deciding to report everything on his screen put you over the limit? Not really for any of us to say.
If people are "griefing" folks out of the chat system, I completely agree that they should face punishment, and should be reported. This should be the mechanism to balance things out. The fact that Cryptic CS is so incredibly bad does nothing to remove that logic, it is absolutely the proper solution. It just means that Cryptic needs to step up its game on customer service aspects.
Griefing. The word you are looking for is 'griefing'. I'm so glad I was here to clear that one up for you.
I report people who spam. trading I don't mind. spam trading I do.
Look - here's a hint. You're really not as clever as you think you are. Your 'arguments' are just opinions, variants on 'it's not fair' or weasel-wording.
as things stand, and as things have stood in all PWE games, if a number of people think you are spamming then you are spamming. Deal with it in ways other than childish griefing of other people. Jesus - what are you? Twelve or something? Grow up.
EDITED TO ADD: Welcome to my Ignore List.
Ah, so your way of using the report spam function is correct, and mine is incorrect. That's your opinion sir.
Someone can justify reporting me for "spam" after linking one item in zone? Then I can do the same to other people, how is this grieving? System working as intended according to all the self righteous people in this thread, so i'll just do the same. Now that I flipped the script you're upset? You should be.
A zone ban would be appropriate. A game wide chat ban? Unreal. Look at all the other threads popping up about this same issue. The system is broke, and it's counter productive.
As far as my arguments go? They are not opinion.
Fact: If you get reported for "spam" you get a chat ban for 24 hours and cannot use any form of in game chat, in this game and every Cryptic game.
Fact: People can use this system to report anyone they want without punishment.
Fact: Not being able to chat ruins the gaming experience.
Fact: There is no rate limiter to limit spam and the report function is a feel good button. Those gold spammers aren't going away, you will never ban all the traders from zone.
Fact: The amount of reports it takes to get a chat ban are far from a majority vote.
Fact: Something that annoys you, might not annoy me. There are no universal rules for zone. Therefore the report spam varies by person.
Fact: It is not user friendly, people are banned from chat without any feedback to what they did wrong.
Need I continue? My opinion begins when I offer solutions to fix the convoluted system.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
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calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It covers a couple of minutes. we don't know what went on before and as it shows a player taking screenshots for no apparent reason before his surprise ban I am assuming it was staged to make a point.
Note this is NOT the same. His entire account was banned, this was a result of mail spamming / inappropriate ban, not zone report spam.
Prior to reading further into the thread this was my response:
~~~
What's interesting about the CM response is this:
"To note: Players are given a detailed warning stating what they did wrong, and to not do it again, before being banned -- continuing to do it past the warning will cause the ban. The warning is there for a reason "
I don't play STO so I don't know if this actually exists, but if it does it's something that this game does not have. You go straight to 24 hour ban with no chance of correcting it.
It covers a couple of minutes. we don't know what went on before and as it shows a player taking screenshots for no apparent reason before his surprise ban I am assuming it was staged to make a point.
Actually, it covers all the chat prior to his ban which means he was banned for that one message. If you follow the pictures from left to right they go until he logged into the zone.
The time stamps are there, sorry you're upset your broken system doesn't actually work as intended.
Also anyone else notice that it's like 3 or 4 people arguing against the rest of the population of the boards that think the system is fine? I mean after a time shouldn't you just realize that most of the people think it's fine the way it is and give it up?
Actually if you took time to read this thread you will see the majority agrees that the system is flawed and should be reworked in some way. There are a very vocal minority that really like their shiny sheriff badges though.
I've been following this thread from the beginning if you recall and by my count, out of 48 pages, 4 people agree whole heartedly with you, 3 agree the system is flawed but disagree with your assertions and the rest want you to stop posting trade chat in zone chat.
It sounds like your end is actually the vocal minority.
Still trolling? Go to page 38, there are 3 people on that page alone that agree, then jump by page 46. 2 pages with more than you counted "total"
Again will not acknowledge you anymore.
Being banned from all forms of communication is broken. A zone ban would be plenty.
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calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It covers a couple of minutes. we don't know what went on before and as it shows a player taking screenshots for no apparent reason before his surprise ban I am assuming it was staged to make a point.
Do you realize you can actually scroll back the chat AFTER you've been banned? I am assuming you are not even interested in the truth.
Do you realize you can actually scroll back the chat AFTER you've been banned? I am assuming you are not even interested in the truth.
I stand corrected then. As i have said previously. Until PWE overturn their cross-game policy and change this system, which they won't, I'm happy with how it is. If 20 or so people think you are spamming then you are spamming. If you don't want to be cross channel silenced, don't spam. If you think you are being persecuted by the Illuminati or whatever, contact PWE.
I'd feel more positive about this system if it wasn't for the fact that it has failed to reduce the real spam from gold sellers, this just plays into the hands of griefers because it is such a blunt and heavy-handed instrument. And do the devs really think a gold-seller gives a **** about being banned from party / guild / tell chat?
Why not just create channels for the activities that the self-appointed zonechat police regard as spam (trade and LFG/LFM)? Too much work / cost compared to an automated process like this chat ban? Really lazy development and a very poor approach to customer service, in my opinion, two things that hurt this game's long-term prospects.
Why not just create channels for the activities that the self-appointed zonechat police regard as spam (trade and LFG/LFM)? Too much work / cost compared to an automated process like this chat ban? Really lazy development and a very poor approach to customer service, in my opinion, two things that hurt this game's long-term prospects.
STO is doing fine with both the same chat system and lack of support. Support costs money. That's all they care about and they don't think lack of support is costing them money.
EDITED TO ADD: people who report spam are not 'self-appointed' - they are using the chat facilities to report spam, as the designers intended with the report Spam option.
This happens on one of my members. really... i can't help but laughed hard on what happened to him. He entered the same text consecutively by accident & got himself banned 24hrs from chat. Not just the channel he entered the text but on every bloody channel (party, whisper, guild, wadever)...
The banning system is pretty good IMO but, it's best that the ban to activate on the channel that the person spam at... not whole channel.
Some people are abusing this on Dragon. I got reported and chat banned cos I typed a single line "LF RP Guild".
One. Single. Line.
The social tab has a guild listing where you can find potentially interesting guilds to join. (Not saying that asking in Zone chat was inappropriate, just pointing out an alternative to it).
If you only typed out a single line then this is deliberate griefing.
Report it - there is a chance in a case this obvious that Cryptic might actually check up and do something to the perpetrators.
Unfortunately even if you type a single line, and then complain, people in the community say you're lying and must have been spamming. Look in the thread. Those same exact people also said of anyone so much as links an item for sale in zone they will report them because they "don't want to see trading in zone"
Do what you want, you can really ruin people's gaming experience because there's a vocal minority who really love their report spam button. There's also no consequences for reporting someone that did nothing wrong.
PW also has way to many tickets, if you submit one, yours gets deleted or they give you a sugar coated response to keep you quiet days after the ban expires. .
The system is broken. Search this forum for chat bans, people post all kinds of evidence of abuse. Then you get the SAME people in those threads calling the evidence false.
"stop spamming hehehehehe"
"enjoy your ban hehehehehe"
"working as intended hehehehehe"
Honestly these type of people get off on other players suffering. Read the threads.
Comments
If your writing in any way resembles anything green or below, please refrain from posting.
Now, onto my actual post.
First, the problem.
The system, though effective for hindering spammers, is very easily abused. Suppose there is a group of 20 or more players who have no qualms about chat banning players they don't like or don't agree with. Suppose these players share a guild. Suppose that any time one of them encounters someone they want banned, they simply post that player's name and handle in guild chat, and everyone in the guild reports that player. All of these things are possible given the current system.
Now suppose that instead of banning players they don't like, they ban everyone they see. It would be possible, even easy, for them to stand in PE, banning every single user that speaks in zone chat. In fact, to avoid being discovered and banned, they could even create alternate accounts. This would cause some obvious problems for everyone.
Next, the solution.
Cryptic has made it pretty clear that they have absolutely no intention of changing the system. It's cheap and easy for them. They've stated that reprogramming it would be unfeasible. Given the similarities (including recurring bugs) of every game that uses their engine, I'm inclined to believe them. They definitely don't want to fix it.
The creation of official trade and LFG channels would result in a great reduction of frivolous bannings, but the hypothetical griefing guild I mentioned is still very possible. This would also have no effect on people reporting their competitors.
The AD exploits had been floating around for a long time and were allegedly brought to Cryptic's attention. Regardless of whether or not these claims were true, Cryptic only acted when the problem was so severe that it threatened the entire game. I have no intention of reporting people falsely, but I feel that the problem should be brought to the attention of the community at large, beyond this forum.
So on which shard are we making a guild ?
Right up until the point where it victimizes you. I'm not willing to wait for that time.
This guy has the perfect solution. I agree. Strip the chat ban function totally out and leave the ignore in. Best of both worlds.
Wow, you're caustic. You must be from League of Legends. I hear they have one of the most caustic communities out there.
I suggest holding your breath for 45 seconds, then it'll certainly seem like a long time.
Try thinking before doing anything at all next time, please.
Nothing wrong with his initial remark. Posting the same comment multiple times in less than a minute is going to be considered spamming by many in the community.
Although he could have done without the vapid insult at the end there.
Yes it does. Just this morning I reported as spam, amidst all the other trading spam, someone just posting numbers like 1111, 222 etc. They went. In about 30 seconds most of the other trade spammers also vanished and for a time peace was restored. It's draconian and maybe on occasions, unfair. But that's the system and it does what it does and you know how it works. If you don't want to lose all channels then think twice about repeat posting trades because all the complaining on forums in the world is not going to change it. And as you've already confessed to using the Chat channel to grief other people just to make what you imagine is a good point then the more time you spend silenced the better for the rest of us.
I never said I used the chat channel to grief... I don't use the zone channel to spam. You are mincing my words.
I said I use the report function for what I see fit just to create awareness. Like you said, you report people that list trades I can also use it to report whoever.
It wouldn't surprise me a bit. There are guilds in other MMOs that are notorious for their trolling.
Griefing. The word you are looking for is 'griefing'. I'm so glad I was here to clear that one up for you.
I report people who spam. trading I don't mind. spam trading I do.
Look - here's a hint. You're really not as clever as you think you are. Your 'arguments' are just opinions, variants on 'it's not fair' or weasel-wording.
as things stand, and as things have stood in all PWE games, if a number of people think you are spamming then you are spamming. Deal with it in ways other than childish griefing of other people. Jesus - what are you? Twelve or something? Grow up.
EDITED TO ADD: Welcome to my Ignore List.
The screenshot doesn't say beans, the timestamps are all the same minute. What did the last minute say? How often was it up there? Had you been once a minute or two for hours and hours? Was something else on there earlier that made a pile of people angry, and one guy deciding to report everything on his screen put you over the limit? Not really for any of us to say.
If people are "griefing" folks out of the chat system, I completely agree that they should face punishment, and should be reported. This should be the mechanism to balance things out. The fact that Cryptic CS is so incredibly bad does nothing to remove that logic, it is absolutely the proper solution. It just means that Cryptic needs to step up its game on customer service aspects.
Ah, so your way of using the report spam function is correct, and mine is incorrect. That's your opinion sir.
Someone can justify reporting me for "spam" after linking one item in zone? Then I can do the same to other people, how is this grieving? System working as intended according to all the self righteous people in this thread, so i'll just do the same. Now that I flipped the script you're upset? You should be.
A zone ban would be appropriate. A game wide chat ban? Unreal. Look at all the other threads popping up about this same issue. The system is broke, and it's counter productive.
As far as my arguments go? They are not opinion.
Fact: If you get reported for "spam" you get a chat ban for 24 hours and cannot use any form of in game chat, in this game and every Cryptic game.
Fact: People can use this system to report anyone they want without punishment.
Fact: Not being able to chat ruins the gaming experience.
Fact: There is no rate limiter to limit spam and the report function is a feel good button. Those gold spammers aren't going away, you will never ban all the traders from zone.
Fact: The amount of reports it takes to get a chat ban are far from a majority vote.
Fact: Something that annoys you, might not annoy me. There are no universal rules for zone. Therefore the report spam varies by person.
Fact: It is not user friendly, people are banned from chat without any feedback to what they did wrong.
Need I continue? My opinion begins when I offer solutions to fix the convoluted system.
Check this thread out from STO: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=702731
Note especially the CM response post #30.
What about this one? It was posted elsewhere.
It covers a couple of minutes. we don't know what went on before and as it shows a player taking screenshots for no apparent reason before his surprise ban I am assuming it was staged to make a point.
Note this is NOT the same. His entire account was banned, this was a result of mail spamming / inappropriate ban, not zone report spam.
Prior to reading further into the thread this was my response:
~~~
What's interesting about the CM response is this:
"To note: Players are given a detailed warning stating what they did wrong, and to not do it again, before being banned -- continuing to do it past the warning will cause the ban. The warning is there for a reason "
I don't play STO so I don't know if this actually exists, but if it does it's something that this game does not have. You go straight to 24 hour ban with no chance of correcting it.
~~~
Actually, it covers all the chat prior to his ban which means he was banned for that one message. If you follow the pictures from left to right they go until he logged into the zone.
The time stamps are there, sorry you're upset your broken system doesn't actually work as intended.
Actually if you took time to read this thread you will see the majority agrees that the system is flawed and should be reworked in some way. There are a very vocal minority that really like their shiny sheriff badges though.
Still trolling? Go to page 38, there are 3 people on that page alone that agree, then jump by page 46. 2 pages with more than you counted "total"
Again will not acknowledge you anymore.
Being banned from all forms of communication is broken. A zone ban would be plenty.
Do you realize you can actually scroll back the chat AFTER you've been banned? I am assuming you are not even interested in the truth.
Not broken, just too generalized. The type of ban should be based on the type of chat where the player accumulated most of the ignores.
It is still relevant that not misusing Zone chat for trade offers is the best way to avoid getting chat-banned.
I stand corrected then. As i have said previously. Until PWE overturn their cross-game policy and change this system, which they won't, I'm happy with how it is. If 20 or so people think you are spamming then you are spamming. If you don't want to be cross channel silenced, don't spam. If you think you are being persecuted by the Illuminati or whatever, contact PWE.
Why not just create channels for the activities that the self-appointed zonechat police regard as spam (trade and LFG/LFM)? Too much work / cost compared to an automated process like this chat ban? Really lazy development and a very poor approach to customer service, in my opinion, two things that hurt this game's long-term prospects.
STO is doing fine with both the same chat system and lack of support. Support costs money. That's all they care about and they don't think lack of support is costing them money.
EDITED TO ADD: people who report spam are not 'self-appointed' - they are using the chat facilities to report spam, as the designers intended with the report Spam option.
The banning system is pretty good IMO but, it's best that the ban to activate on the channel that the person spam at... not whole channel.
Cryptic take notes you might learn something from these guys >_>
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
One. Single. Line.
The social tab has a guild listing where you can find potentially interesting guilds to join. (Not saying that asking in Zone chat was inappropriate, just pointing out an alternative to it).
If you only typed out a single line then this is deliberate griefing.
Report it - there is a chance in a case this obvious that Cryptic might actually check up and do something to the perpetrators.
No point. GMs are probably swarmed with tickets, and Cryptic replied earlier in the thread that they'll look into it.
Well, I'll just quote something said in another thread: "The people have spoken that this is considered spam to them and is unacceptable."
Unfortunately even if you type a single line, and then complain, people in the community say you're lying and must have been spamming. Look in the thread. Those same exact people also said of anyone so much as links an item for sale in zone they will report them because they "don't want to see trading in zone"
Do what you want, you can really ruin people's gaming experience because there's a vocal minority who really love their report spam button. There's also no consequences for reporting someone that did nothing wrong.
PW also has way to many tickets, if you submit one, yours gets deleted or they give you a sugar coated response to keep you quiet days after the ban expires. .
The system is broken. Search this forum for chat bans, people post all kinds of evidence of abuse. Then you get the SAME people in those threads calling the evidence false.
"stop spamming hehehehehe"
"enjoy your ban hehehehehe"
"working as intended hehehehehe"
Honestly these type of people get off on other players suffering. Read the threads.