If the devs believe clerics make too much money when soloing, fine -- debuff us when solo. When we're healing in a skirmish or dungeon, however, and we have aggro on all of the adds, it's just dumb. We have to use *more* pots than anyone else.
Funny how the only Class that is made to save other people from have to use pots and is saving them money is the one that is forced by a debuff to use pots because other wise it would save them money sounds like a raw deal to me. So in the end the debuff just passes the buck to the healers and dps gets free heals and saves money.
Like I said, I'm not trying to throw a huge fit, I just feel some dev needs to look into it again, from an endgame perspective.
I'll take a parallel -40% damage taken debuff, if that's the tradeoff
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obsituusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 11Arc User
edited May 2013
I'm not saying you, or anyone, should throw a big fit, however if all of a sudden there were hardly any Clerics playing and this was spoken about on the forums as the reason why on a regular basis, it might get something done. Maybe? Ah... who am I kidding...
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tanerasMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
People complain too much...
No, not you clerics. The people who complained about how clerics didn't need health pots for solo pve. Gold is pretty much useless in this game.
Maybe I'm a glass half full sort of guy but I don't see this sticking around for too long, at least not in skirmishes/dungeons.
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obsituusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 11Arc User
No, not you clerics. The people who complained about how clerics didn't need health pots for solo pve. Gold is pretty much useless in this game.
Maybe I'm a glass half full sort of guy but I don't see this sticking around for too long, at least not in skirmishes/dungeons.
We can hope. I started a Dwarven Cleric at first and got to level 32, however I took the Cleric companion and really had no problem, didn't need pots, etc. Well, I decided that playing a Dwarf just wasn't my style and considering how quickly I got to 32 I rerolled a Human, but this time I took a DPS companion since I didn't "think" the Cleric companion was doing much.
Boy was I wrong. I had no idea just how bad my self healing was until I didn't have my pocket-Cleric around to supplement it. Just saying that makes me laugh... a healer that needs a pocket healer for soloing... Since I can't mail gold from my old character to this new Cleric I have a bit more to earn, however as soon as I have enough I'm buying a Cleric companion again. That's really kind of sad...
CB2 - No debuff
CB3 - 75% debuff (was mislabeled as 50%)
CB4 - 40% debuff
OBT - 40% debuff (havent checked it however)
I've said to the group I run with that my damage is so little that I cant kill stuff fast enough nor heal myself well enough to solo at a reasonable speed. I had to duo from 40-60.
I'd take the Righteousness IF I was given something in return, however, I'd prefer to not have Righteousness at all.
Open the Launcher. Click Options near the top. Check Disable on-demand patching. This will download another couple of gigs.
I've said to the group I run with that my damage is so little that I cant kill stuff fast enough nor heal myself well enough to solo at a reasonable speed. I had to duo from 40-60.
You're kidding right? Astral Shield, Sun Burst, Daunting Light, Firestrike and Tank pet = faceroll solo play all the way to cap.
Qutti'Debachi - Cleric <Rarely Sober> - Beholder
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chaddiwickerMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I don't know if I use more pots than other classes, but it saddens me that I have to use them so often. Pulling aggro in dungeons AND having to use pots while I'm healing my teammates faster than I heal myself just seems unfair. At the very least they need to rename/reword it, but I wish they would just get rid of it. What other class has a permanent debuff?
Heck, some of the mobs I fight seem to have better healing abilities than I do and with my lower DPS than other classes they can take forever to kill.
You're kidding right? Astral Shield, Sun Burst, Daunting Light, Firestrike and Tank pet = faceroll solo play all the way to cap.
at which point you had better buy some zen or turn ad into zen because you are going to need the cash shop health stones due to the self healing debuff.
that last fight in the aberrant skirmish - if you don't have a preform of people who a) speak your same language b) communicate and c) know how to play, you the cleric will be tanking everything and not being able to stop and cast anything due to the sheer amount of fast recast aoe's from all the adds, the boss and the constantly respawning thoog.
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kisukiiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited May 2013
This debuff needs to go.. I am sorry but if I am going to have to off tank adds in dungeons then I am going to need to be able to heal myself without a -40% penalty. For solo play it's fine but in groups it needs to change to zero. I haven't even hit end game and I am ready to just shelve my cleric till something changes.
I love to heal but if you are going to nerf my ability to even do my job then what's the point of having healers in the game...
Oh hell why not change how tanks work and allow them to be actual tanks. Then they could pick up adds and let me worry about healing instead of running around like a chicken with it's head cut off trying to heal.
at which point you had better buy some zen or turn ad into zen because you are going to need the cash shop health stones due to the self healing debuff.
that last fight in the aberrant skirmish - if you don't have a preform of people who a) speak your same language b) communicate and c) know how to play, you the cleric will be tanking everything and not being able to stop and cast anything due to the sheer amount of fast recast aoe's from all the adds, the boss and the constantly respawning thoog.
Thats group play. He said he couldn't SOLO from 40-60.
I dont think the problem lies in the fact that we heal ourselves for less, but more about the fact that we take more damage from enemies, and not just literally. As a cleric iv done the poisen dragon dungeon a couple times and I am allways thinking to myself, why are all the adds after me? I have sooth maxed so -40% threat from healing, in that fights its just about all i can do... Yet all the adds that spawn come to me, and you know what? no one else seems to care!. Besides a couple good tanks and a few decent control wizards everyone is so delighted to just aim for the boss and let their only healer(s sometimes you need 2) take the punching to face. I have freinds who play this game and they feel that the cleric is actually squishier then their classes. And this could all be related to the way aggro mechanics work.
What i feel should be done is to either reduce boss's add spawn rate/ammount, or reduce that enemies damage. Or increase the clerics defense, or remove the self healing debuff(which i think should stay in, *avoids incoming flames*.) Or find a reason for the dps to actually want to take out the adds.
Even in solo, unless without a man at arms, i feel the healing debuffs hurt, and how pathetic it is to actually try to heal yourself from damaged to full. It takes forever. Perhaps the debuff should only apply to certain skills, or be removed while in divine mode.
While on that subject does anyone else feel like divinity's at will skills feel a bit weak? Besides being an actual heal, it feels pretty slow and like a waste of divine power that could be used on a skill for extra benefit. Same goes for the damage at will also.
I feel the debuff is garbage as well, I loved playing a cleric, but in group dungeons it's rubbish and I'll either put my cleric on hold, or simply not run any group dungeons at all.
I don't like your skillchoice for this fight really, forgemasters requires you to build Divine power to be usefull as a heal... your not getting that from running around like a madman when you started out the fight. I use sunburst instaid and because i do keep my hallowed up about 80-90% of the time purely because theres so many adds in most of these fights and with about 1500 crit, it'll give me enough ap through feats. Don't underestimate that % defense bonus, the additional dmg for your group will help slightly with ending fights faster thus less potions consumage and if your running around with little time to use at wills, you might aswell be healing yourself due to hallowed/sacred with 100% uptime or close to. The additional benefit is having an extra knocback just incase if you can spare the DP.
While i agree that the debuff is pretty annoying, its not the big problem. I'd be fine with that debuff if i didn't have ALL the adds on me entire dungeons through whenever my guardians taunt is on cooldown or my CW doesn't have the void that pulls everything in up(no idea what its called).
A few solutions to our problems are; Either reduce our threat, make adds spawn at fixed intervals, make whoever astral shield is healing get the aggro for it or buff threat on other classes so they can actually keep things off me for longer then a few seconds would all be alternative ideas to fixing our problem which is that we are the healer which is pretty much tanking everything.
In all honesty if this persists, i'm thinking of just ignoring crit and/or recovery as most of my healing comes from % based heals anyway and stacking a mixture of defense/deflect instaid might make me a tank that can heal himself which might actually solve the entire problem all together. Except that GW's would complain EVEN MORE about "me being the tank and them wondering why they exist and/or are in this group with me/not go full dps spec" etc.
Hell... even a stopcast key or improved cast animations would help massively so we aren't suddenly being aoe'd down while casting something, trying to shiftdodge but being unable to because we already started the cast.
Whenever I open the power panel and see this, I am reminded that we are running around with a constant debuff. It's not fun at all. Does D&D have something similar or is it an invention by Cryptic? In my 10 years of playing MMOs it is the first time I see a class with a permanent debuff by design.
In practice I felt this debuff degraded Healing Word as an altar / campfire replacement when levelng solo. At the same time at least divinity mode Forgemaster's Flame and Astral Shield still feel useful enough when solo. I hope this is not a bug and both spells are by design not affected.
No such mechanic in D&D 4E at all, although cleric healers did receive a nerf in may of 2010 in the form of Healer's Lore no longer adding +wis bonus to static healing, like astral seal. Righteousness is something Cryptic created, and I agree with the argument that is has to go.
I don't like your skillchoice for this fight really, forgemasters requires you to build Divine power to be usefull as a heal... your not getting that from running around like a madman when you started out the fight.
Well the whole point of the video was how freaking hectic is was in the first place. Sunburst is nice, but FF (on adds chasing you) will heal you pretty well. It would just be better if it was 40% better.
Also, that was the first run I'd ever done on that dungeon
obsituusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 11Arc User
edited May 2013
We should organize a mass cleric sit in... All Clerics logged in sitting in the main area of Neverwinter spamming skills until the servers cry, while spamming general chat about how garbage this debuff is. That might get some attention...
We should organize a mass cleric sit in... All Clerics logged in sitting in the main area of Neverwinter spamming skills until the servers cry, while spamming general chat about how garbage this debuff is. That might get some attention...
lol, I second that
But the point on this thread is absolutely right, 40% reduction all the time is simply ridiculous.
I only hope the game developers will take notice of this feedback and think it over...
the problem with righteousness is its just a straight up debuff with no upsides too it, why does cleric have this and no one else? why doesnt TR do less damage when hes solo? why doesnt GF take more damage when hes solo? why doesnt CW's CC last shorter when he's solo? Give Cleric something else to compensate like 10% reduced damage always on mechanic, dont just nerf their healing by 50% and not give them something in return, you basically just killed clerics survivability because they can only survive through healing, they cant stealth or wear heavy armor
Righteousness doesn't need to be a trade off, its not lets make a **** deal. It is a poorly implemented knee jerk band aid for a problem that really isn't a problem, namely gold on clerics by end game...big freaking deal. As is people will stock pile gold at end game anyway because there really isn't much to spend it on. It doesn't need a feat to reduce it's effects, then it would be a feat tax to remove a debuff that shouldn't be there in the first place, and it doesn't belong in pvp either, unless like another poster mentioned, we want to apply the same nerf to rogue dps, cw CC, and gf survivability...it is stupid and serves no purpose. This is "open beta" remove this silly mechanic. My 2 cents.
Probably the most ridiculous passive debuff I have ever seen in an MMO.
If it's made for PvP for balancing issues, then make it PvP only.
Why am I gimped against monsters because I can heal myself? Not like Healing Word and Sunburst are so effing amazing that I need to nerf it against myself when I solo.
You should edit the thread title so it says "Righteousness - What is it good for? Absolutely nothing."
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faceplantmikeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 26Arc User
edited May 2013
Yes sir! bump bump
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derresshMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
It is a tad ridiculous, in my opinion. I don't even play a cleric, but my girlfriend does. I can sort of understand their reasoning behind the choice. They wanted to make the cleric use roughly the same amount of potions as the other classes during solo play. I get that. However, as soon as that cleric squads with ANYONE, the cleric immediately gets downgraded to most potions used out of any class.
Other MMOs I've played with healer classes didn't need a healing debuff to balance potion usage, because there was a mana system, which basically meant the healer spent mana to heal health. In NWO, the heals don't actually have a cost other than putting them on cooldown.
Other MMOs I've played with healer classes didn't need a healing debuff to balance potion usage, because there was a mana system, which basically meant the healer spent mana to heal health. In NWO, the heals don't actually have a cost other than putting them on cooldown.
And I get that. But other classes should also have some sort of life stealing/regening skill that allows them to have lesser downtimes.
But 40% is just something cruel. I'd settle for 20% at this point...
How about... rogues do 40% less damage, tanks take 40% more damage, and CW have 40% less CC time. That would about equal it out, to put it in perspective. We're healers, we're meant to heal, this debuff is stupid.
Your post here is just rage talk. To put in in perspective it would be tanks generate 40% less aggro, Rogues do 40% less combat advantage damage, Control wizards tab skills do 40% less damage, and great weapon fighters aoe's are 40% smaller
I do remember one other class that came into a Cryptic (at the time anyways...) game that started with a debuff. Kheldian's in City of Heroes were at negative damage and resistance numbers unless grouped with others, and based on the classes would increase to "on par" at 2 of each type, and beyond up to the group limit.
This was later removed because it was a horrible idea then, and its still not a very good idea now.
Comments
If the devs believe clerics make too much money when soloing, fine -- debuff us when solo. When we're healing in a skirmish or dungeon, however, and we have aggro on all of the adds, it's just dumb. We have to use *more* pots than anyone else.
I'll take a parallel -40% damage taken debuff, if that's the tradeoff
No, not you clerics. The people who complained about how clerics didn't need health pots for solo pve. Gold is pretty much useless in this game.
Maybe I'm a glass half full sort of guy but I don't see this sticking around for too long, at least not in skirmishes/dungeons.
We can hope. I started a Dwarven Cleric at first and got to level 32, however I took the Cleric companion and really had no problem, didn't need pots, etc. Well, I decided that playing a Dwarf just wasn't my style and considering how quickly I got to 32 I rerolled a Human, but this time I took a DPS companion since I didn't "think" the Cleric companion was doing much.
Boy was I wrong. I had no idea just how bad my self healing was until I didn't have my pocket-Cleric around to supplement it. Just saying that makes me laugh... a healer that needs a pocket healer for soloing... Since I can't mail gold from my old character to this new Cleric I have a bit more to earn, however as soon as I have enough I'm buying a Cleric companion again. That's really kind of sad...
CB3 - 75% debuff (was mislabeled as 50%)
CB4 - 40% debuff
OBT - 40% debuff (havent checked it however)
I've said to the group I run with that my damage is so little that I cant kill stuff fast enough nor heal myself well enough to solo at a reasonable speed. I had to duo from 40-60.
I'd take the Righteousness IF I was given something in return, however, I'd prefer to not have Righteousness at all.
Ability Scores || All Attribute Roll Combinations || My Cleric Stream \o/
You're kidding right? Astral Shield, Sun Burst, Daunting Light, Firestrike and Tank pet = faceroll solo play all the way to cap.
<Rarely Sober> - Beholder
Heck, some of the mobs I fight seem to have better healing abilities than I do and with my lower DPS than other classes they can take forever to kill.
at which point you had better buy some zen or turn ad into zen because you are going to need the cash shop health stones due to the self healing debuff.
that last fight in the aberrant skirmish - if you don't have a preform of people who a) speak your same language b) communicate and c) know how to play, you the cleric will be tanking everything and not being able to stop and cast anything due to the sheer amount of fast recast aoe's from all the adds, the boss and the constantly respawning thoog.
I love to heal but if you are going to nerf my ability to even do my job then what's the point of having healers in the game...
Oh hell why not change how tanks work and allow them to be actual tanks. Then they could pick up adds and let me worry about healing instead of running around like a chicken with it's head cut off trying to heal.
Thats group play. He said he couldn't SOLO from 40-60.
<Rarely Sober> - Beholder
What i feel should be done is to either reduce boss's add spawn rate/ammount, or reduce that enemies damage. Or increase the clerics defense, or remove the self healing debuff(which i think should stay in, *avoids incoming flames*.) Or find a reason for the dps to actually want to take out the adds.
Even in solo, unless without a man at arms, i feel the healing debuffs hurt, and how pathetic it is to actually try to heal yourself from damaged to full. It takes forever. Perhaps the debuff should only apply to certain skills, or be removed while in divine mode.
While on that subject does anyone else feel like divinity's at will skills feel a bit weak? Besides being an actual heal, it feels pretty slow and like a waste of divine power that could be used on a skill for extra benefit. Same goes for the damage at will also.
Just my 3 dollars and fity cents.
While i agree that the debuff is pretty annoying, its not the big problem. I'd be fine with that debuff if i didn't have ALL the adds on me entire dungeons through whenever my guardians taunt is on cooldown or my CW doesn't have the void that pulls everything in up(no idea what its called).
A few solutions to our problems are; Either reduce our threat, make adds spawn at fixed intervals, make whoever astral shield is healing get the aggro for it or buff threat on other classes so they can actually keep things off me for longer then a few seconds would all be alternative ideas to fixing our problem which is that we are the healer which is pretty much tanking everything.
In all honesty if this persists, i'm thinking of just ignoring crit and/or recovery as most of my healing comes from % based heals anyway and stacking a mixture of defense/deflect instaid might make me a tank that can heal himself which might actually solve the entire problem all together. Except that GW's would complain EVEN MORE about "me being the tank and them wondering why they exist and/or are in this group with me/not go full dps spec" etc.
Hell... even a stopcast key or improved cast animations would help massively so we aren't suddenly being aoe'd down while casting something, trying to shiftdodge but being unable to because we already started the cast.
No such mechanic in D&D 4E at all, although cleric healers did receive a nerf in may of 2010 in the form of Healer's Lore no longer adding +wis bonus to static healing, like astral seal. Righteousness is something Cryptic created, and I agree with the argument that is has to go.
Well the whole point of the video was how freaking hectic is was in the first place. Sunburst is nice, but FF (on adds chasing you) will heal you pretty well. It would just be better if it was 40% better.
Also, that was the first run I'd ever done on that dungeon
I hate this debuff.
But the point on this thread is absolutely right, 40% reduction all the time is simply ridiculous.
I only hope the game developers will take notice of this feedback and think it over...
Righteousness doesn't need to be a trade off, its not lets make a **** deal. It is a poorly implemented knee jerk band aid for a problem that really isn't a problem, namely gold on clerics by end game...big freaking deal. As is people will stock pile gold at end game anyway because there really isn't much to spend it on. It doesn't need a feat to reduce it's effects, then it would be a feat tax to remove a debuff that shouldn't be there in the first place, and it doesn't belong in pvp either, unless like another poster mentioned, we want to apply the same nerf to rogue dps, cw CC, and gf survivability...it is stupid and serves no purpose. This is "open beta" remove this silly mechanic. My 2 cents.
If it's made for PvP for balancing issues, then make it PvP only.
Why am I gimped against monsters because I can heal myself? Not like Healing Word and Sunburst are so effing amazing that I need to nerf it against myself when I solo.
So dumb.
I would LOVE to hear Cryptic's reasoning for it.
Other MMOs I've played with healer classes didn't need a healing debuff to balance potion usage, because there was a mana system, which basically meant the healer spent mana to heal health. In NWO, the heals don't actually have a cost other than putting them on cooldown.
And I get that. But other classes should also have some sort of life stealing/regening skill that allows them to have lesser downtimes.
But 40% is just something cruel. I'd settle for 20% at this point...
(mostly for the bumps)
This was later removed because it was a horrible idea then, and its still not a very good idea now.