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Righteousness

deistikdeistik Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 658 Bounty Hunter
edited July 2013 in The Temple
Seriously? How many pots do I use in that compared to everyone else? How come when I'm specced for pure healing, I still can't heal myself very well?

I really feel like in a group, we should NOT have a debuff on ourselves, and we should NOT be the one class that has to use the MOST potions. Things get so chaotic in the later dungeons.

I just want a mechanic so that the more people you have in your group, the less the healing debuff is. I get that they don't want me to go solo a dungeon. But this is pretty detrimental to making people want to play a cleric.

I feel like I should be running 2 clerics always so I don't die... that's what I'm supposed to be for though.

Give players an appliable heal debuff so PvP takes skill to kill a cleric instead of "lol I can't heal myself, guess I die." Health stones shouldn't be the only way to heal myself, and currently, that's it.

Thoughts?

edit: as of 5/14/13 I've mostly respecced to as much Damage Resistance as possible. Why? Because we don't get <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in the DR department. DR just makes so much more sense over healing, since healing is really only helping the people that can take full advantage of it (every party member but yourself). DR doesn't have a pointless debuff on it, so that's what I'll stack until this is fixed.
Post edited by deistik on
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Comments

  • sindofinsindofin Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Whenever I open the power panel and see this, I am reminded that we are running around with a constant debuff. It's not fun at all. Does D&D have something similar or is it an invention by Cryptic? In my 10 years of playing MMOs it is the first time I see a class with a permanent debuff by design.

    In practice I felt this debuff degraded Healing Word as an altar / campfire replacement when levelng solo. At the same time at least divinity mode Forgemaster's Flame and Astral Shield still feel useful enough when solo. I hope this is not a bug and both spells are by design not affected.
  • dcronusdcronus Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Has there been any reason posted as to why the debuff is so big?
  • forsakenlich1forsakenlich1 Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    cleric is supposed to use pots so that others dont have to

    works as intended
  • rkv13rkv13 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 217 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    It's designed to keep Clerics from never having to use potions ever, like in the early Closed Beta Weekends. It used to be a 50% reduction, but that was too much.

    As of now, I have a hard time saying if it's a problem. On the one hand I've rarely used potions while solo questing, but in dungeons and skirmishes I regularly end up at less than 50% health after a big fight while everyone else in the party is topped off from all my heals. With heals generating aggro on everything within a radius I'm always pulling add aggro, and people so rarely pay any attention to that fact as I dodge all over the fight. I don't mind tanking adds, but with the self-healing debuff continuing to do so later in the game (level 38 atm) will be untenable.

    At first I felt the idea of "reduction by party size" a rather strange idea, but I can't think of any other way to address this issue.
    8.jpg
  • vamaelvamael Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    It just needs to go. Clerics aren't going to top DPS meters, they should have an advantage in healing. You will still need potions for those times you need snap healing.
  • rkv13rkv13 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 217 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    vamael wrote: »
    Clerics aren't going to top DPS meters

    It does happen. DPS Clerics are insane! Super glass cannons.
    8.jpg
  • ascher11tascher11t Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 47
    edited May 2013
    The debuff needs to be lowered, but not removed.
  • deistikdeistik Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 658 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    cleric is supposed to use pots so that others dont have to

    works as intended

    Clerics should have to use pots when they need a burst heal, not on cooldown. The heal debuff is too much.
  • keterysketerys Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    It is pretty amazing to me that they didn't word it as:
    You gain a +60% bonus to heal your allies.

    Same effect, but quite the difference in initial perception.
  • daniorddaniord Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    They did it because folks complained that clerics had more money while leveling because they didn't have to use pots. That didn't factor in that they killed less things in the same amount of time so less loot. What they need to do is either do away entirely with it at 60 or lower it by 10% per person in group. Full group...no debuff. With the way agro works now, in dungeons Clerics are going to burn through way more pots than anyone else because they get the instant agro from adds, which appears to be the only boss mechanic Cryptic has managed to figure out. We'd also become less of a speed bump in PvP. Don't get me wrong a cleric can do a lot of good in PvP, but when pressured your heals are just insufficient on yourself...
  • ashfordeashforde Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I think something like this self heal debuff needs to stick around in PVP, especially if they decide to tone down how much damage all the classes do in 60 pvp.

    I see absolutely 0 reason why the debuff should exist in PVE though, especially if they're going to leave the threat mechanics as they are currently.
  • deistikdeistik Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 658 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    I'm sitting on 75 gold right now, after buying pots and injury kits. I'll pay 75 gold to get this debuff removed, WTB.
  • leillannaleillanna Member Posts: 171 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    The self heal is worthless, completely utterly worthless. I don't even bother to slot it solo or in a group anymore.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Eilistraee zhal zuch tlu wun ussta xukuth.
  • deistikdeistik Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 658 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    ?

    This thread is about the mandatory debuff you get for -40% heals on yourself, regardless of which one you use.

    It makes me sad :(
  • dcronusdcronus Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Maybe insert a Faithful feat that reduces the amount of the debuff to 30%/20%/10%

    ??
  • unspecifiederrorunspecifiederror Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 315 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    I always forget this is a thing. I still use potions a fair bit in dungeons mind you, but I build to make my heals good enough for ME. I often forget my heals being good enough for me means it's extreme overkill on everyone else.

    Honestly the "Clerics have more gold" complaint is stupid anyway. Would anyone who is level 60 care in the slightest little bit if every cleric in the game was running around with 5,000,000 gold but they only had 50 gold?

    I didn't think so.

    Gold is useless except for potions, injury kits, and some crafting related stuff. Every level 60 I know has an abundance of gold and no use for it.
  • deistikdeistik Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 658 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    I built myself for max healing potential, I'm just not the tankiest cleric. It's biting me in the *** in some of these dungeons now though (see link lol)
  • alandoril1alandoril1 Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I don't see why gold matters to people, it's pretty much irrelevant except when buying potions. Which clerics need to do in large quantities at end game because apparently for all the ads that spawn in boss encounters a cleric is simultaneously the sexiest and most delicious thing in all of creation and must absolutely be hunted down at all costs, even if it means ignoring the people killing them...

    It would be interesting to see what dps players would say if all of their abilities were suddenly 40% less effective for no real reason.
  • mudamudamudamudamudamuda Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    If clerics didn't have the debuff, they would be unkillable. There's a reason it's there.
  • alandoril1alandoril1 Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    If clerics didn't have the debuff, they would be unkillable. There's a reason it's there.

    Then make it a pvp only thing.

    But in my experience in every game there is always more damage than healing, always more dps players than support players. So the healing has to be able to significantly outpace damage, otherwise the healer is just a punching bag and there's no point to being one in the first place.
  • deistikdeistik Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 658 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    PvP it makes sense for, but I shouldn't have to spam pots on cooldown just to stay alive, when no one else in my group has to do that... because of me.

    I'm just going to start running 2 clerics and 3 rogues and just roflstomp everything since we all get healed!
  • deistikdeistik Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 658 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    If clerics didn't have the debuff, they would be unkillable. There's a reason it's there.

    So, 2 clerics are unkillable (since they don't get -40% heals on each other)?
  • daniorddaniord Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    The debuff needs to be gone even more importantly in PvP! It should be challenging for a DPS to take out a healer, but it really isn't. I know folks will chime in, I 1v1 rogues all the time. No you don't. Clerics are called a Leadership class. As leaders, drop the debuff by 10% for every person in your party. Then there's no more yelling that clerics don't have to use pots and have all the worthless gold in the world. More followers for the leader, more awe inspiring they are and the better they heal.
  • acidicpure1acidicpure1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I fail to see the point in people complaining about Clerics having lots of gold left over etc; The debuff doesn't really need to be there because for instance if you're healing multiple people at once with AoE heals etc then you're going to be pulling massive aggro on the ads in dungeons (even with the reduction feats/skills) which means even if you start focusing all your heals on yourself you generally can't even keep up heals with the damage the ads are doing due to the debuff.

    Something like this would be fine for PvP only though.
  • deistikdeistik Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 658 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    I have like 80 gold, because all I spend it on is injury kits. If I used the pots, I would die so fast in the harder fights. I'm literally forced to use health stones because of this debuff.
  • dixa1dixa1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    deistik wrote: »
    Clerics should have to use pots when they need a burst heal, not on cooldown. The heal debuff is too much.

    after doing the epic grey wolf den boss tonight in a pug i'm pretty close to shelving my cleric. that fight is almost 100% unpuggable. the fact that 3 of the people in my group were all from the same guild is what saved us. you cant stop for a second to cast anything to build divine power, and the black dogs were hitting me for 14-18k each.

    could only heal myself with pots. everything else too weak.
  • obsituusobsituus Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    deistik wrote: »
    I have like 80 gold, because all I spend it on is injury kits. If I used the pots, I would die so fast in the harder fights. I'm literally forced to use health stones because of this debuff.

    There's your answer. Solo content isn't hard enough to require health stones for any class and group content at high level requires a Cleric, which essentially means the other players in the party can do without the health stones. If you nerf Cleric self healing by a drastic number it creates a scenario where they are working their tail off to keep the group alive and need the health stones for themselves, which means more cash shop transactions.

    This is the only possible reason I can think of for this debuff. I have been playing MMOs since UO and I can't recall a single time EVER in ANY of those games that a healer had a self-debuff on their heals - even in PvP. The way other games handled it was that damage outpaced healing so you had to constantly be on the defensive as a healer which meant you couldn't roflstomp everything in PvE or PvP. Sure, you could play the outlast game in PvP in some cases but that simply wasn't true in anything but 1v1s really and it took so long it wasn't even worth it in most cases.

    That said, if they feel it is necessary for PvP balance, fine, do what you need to do, but it has no place at all in PvE content. Seriously, if I can solo dungeons as a Cleric how is that hurting anyone (not that I think you'd be able to solo high level dungeons even without the debuff, but I digress...). Actually, now that I think about it, I suppose that has something to do with it as well. They probably don't want geared Clerics going through and soloing dungeons to farm items they can sell on the AH which would possibly create an "imbalance" in the AD market which would in turn screw up their profits.

    The more I think about it, the more I feel that the only reason this debuff exists, in PvE anyway, is monetary on their part. Personally, as much as I enjoy playing healer/support classes, this debuff is actually making me consider shelving the Cleric and just going with a Wizard or Rogue.
  • norugganorugga Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    This is the most unfair thing i have ever seen in pve and pvp mostly we just cannot burst heal and heal against burst dmg. This must be gone ! Or it will make me stop playing this game ! It is so unfair
  • deistikdeistik Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 658 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    They don't need this debuff at all, honestly. They need to ADD heal debuffs on classes, so that it takes SKILL in PvP to kill a cleric, not just lolburst because he can't heal himself.

    I'm not going to quit or whatever over it, I just feel like it's a completely unfair debuff that needs a second looking at. Meanwhile, guess I'll be buying more health stones.

    *sigh*
  • bejita231bejita231 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    the problem with righteousness is its just a straight up debuff with no upsides too it, why does cleric have this and no one else? why doesnt TR do less damage when hes solo? why doesnt GF take more damage when hes solo? why doesnt CW's CC last shorter when he's solo? Give Cleric something else to compensate like 10% reduced damage always on mechanic, dont just nerf their healing by 50% and not give them something in return, you basically just killed clerics survivability because they can only survive through healing, they cant stealth or wear heavy armor
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