Righteousness is an incredibly stupid mechanic. There is no logical justification for a DC to heal themselves 40% less. It isn't a class balance issue because...well it's not like clerics do anything else exceptionally well besides AS. There isn't even a comparable mechanic for each of the classes to show just how stupid in comparison it is. It's like if TR had an buff that gave all allies 100% of their crit but they only get 60%. It either needs removed or clerics need to be compensated in some other fashion(CC's last 40% less).
Thats group play. He said he couldn't SOLO from 40-60.
That's somewhat unfortunate, and he probably needs to reroll TR, as solo works quite nicely. It's really not hard at all to level as a DC in this game. It's fairly frictionless compared to levelling as a healer in a ton of other MMOs, where it was a lot more work.
Now, the broken aggro reduction and the healing debuff, on the other hand, are crippling for group play, and just a sign of cack-handed game design and sloppy QA..
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noobiieeMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 29Arc User
edited May 2013
As said by Deistik, this isnt a class discussion this is a discussion about a unfair mechanic and besides that aggro bug that has to be fixed.
We all want a Dev response to this, too many threads ignored, get out of your caves and pay attention to the players that want an answer to this.
This thread is talking about an unfair advantage compared to other classes. I don't feel handicapped on any of my other characters besides the cleric. I use 5x the potions on my cleric then any other while solo or in a group. Why not make it so that all classes have some type of handicap so they can chug down potions just the same?! It's also completely unfair we have to deal with this debuff plus the annoying threat issue to go along with it. And still have yet to hear any word on the aggro issue.
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noobiieeMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 29Arc User
edited May 2013
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noobiieeMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 29Arc User
edited May 2013
i'll keep bumping the post when no one posts on it with a recopilation of memes about Clerics, more creative, more for the cause
I'll petition to get this put back where it belongs (I made it in the gameplay forums for a reason, I actually want people to look at it). Otherwise, I'll just make a new post about it
I find it rather humorous that I need to have a cleric companion to solo. I find that they even occasionally take the aggro off of me more effectively than the tank. That said, I have yet to actually die and I would never claim to be an elite player (I am only level... 36? fwiw)
I think this specific issue is a bit more complicated than "just" the righteousness debuff. Combined with threat generation (or lack of) from GFs, this starts to turn into a serious *gameplay issue* that is simply not specific to one class. This affects everyone. Of course, it was moved to put it in a place with less exposure. Also known as sweeping it under the rug, lol.
The only place I can see an issue with completely removing the debuff would be PvP. Which is why PvP and PvE should always, always be separate entities when it comes to class balance and changes. I dont know if thats the case in this game, but I would be more surprised if it was actually split than if it is all done as blanket changes.
This is supposed to be a beta, after all. Testing out different levels of the debuff and making adjustments based on metrics and community feedback would be standard. Then again, its perfect world.. soooo.... I dont expect much. Some of the games they publish, like this one, have a great core game. And while ALL game companies are concerned with profit and the bottom line, they usually do not do it at the expense of quality and customer satisfaction. The reality is that this setup will raise the percentages of profit, even just a little, for the publisher. That tells me, given that its perfect world, that it is unlikely to ever change. I would love to be wrong about that, but only time will tell.
Just to put it in a way that might appeal to the publisher;
This is an issue that becomes immediately apparent. Being in the F2P market, high turnover is expected, and the idea is to get as much money as possible before that turn over occurs. By hiding many issues in the later game, or the "P2W" factor, you already have your players very invested in the game and this makes them less likely to jump ship. However, with issues like this, it may very well prevent possible paying customers from investing anything at all into the game because of a severely flawed fight dynamic.
By fixing these types of issues, you can still rely on high turnover, high initial investment profit. By not fixing it, it undoubtedly makes many people think twice (at least) before investing any of their funds into this game instead of the plethora of other options available. Again, given that this is supposedly beta, making changes that increase the percentage of players who will make a high initial investment is a very good thing. Testing this out, and balancing according to metrics, is a smart way to approach the situation.
This is an issue that becomes immediately apparent.
Exactly. I want people to support this game, and anyone coming here looking to be an uber healer is going to be let down big time when they have to use the most pots/stones in a group because of some lame debuff that we have for some reason.
If they really want people to play a cleric at all, they really need to rethink this whole Righteousness thing.
Yeah definitely thinking about shelving my cleric, and thus the game, until the aggro is fixed and righteousness is removed or another class that appeals to me as a healer comes along but isn't hamstrung by having to drink more potions than anyone else and be constantly debuffed for no other reason than dps whining.
Edit: In fact, my cleric IS shelved until something is done about it. Just logged in and got a dungeon pop but when I thought about how every single fight was going to end with me sprinting in circles chugging potions I just couldn't be bothered with it.
Exactly. I want people to support this game, and anyone coming here looking to be an uber healer is going to be let down big time when they have to use the most pots/stones in a group because of some lame debuff that we have for some reason.
If they really want people to play a cleric at all, they really need to rethink this whole Righteousness thing.
Thats how I feel too. I get that its not the same as a dedicated healer in many other games, and in fact, I PREFER that playstyle personally. But, I find it extremely strange that the most effective companion I have found for my cleric is... another cleric. It points to a serious "frontline" issue that may prevent new players from investing into the game.
I know how perfect world works, and have no illusions about it.
However, the combat mechanics in this game are heavily flawed and immediately apparent. This is not limited to just righteousness, but it is definitely one of the more blatant issues. I know that they dont care about turnover or player retention, but I do know they care about getting as much profit as possible before that happens and this issue, amongst others, will undoubtedly eat into the efficacy of their business plan.
Completely removing it may not be the best option, but obviously, this is an issue to the player base. And given that its one that is even clear to a "newbie" such as myself, it should be high on the priority list.
Considering how much input I have seen from any dev in this thread I am of the opinion that if it is on the priority list at all it is wayyyyyyyyy down at the bottom.
Considering how much input I have seen from any dev in this thread I am of the opinion that if it is on the priority list at all it is wayyyyyyyyy down at the bottom.
I am of the opinion that its not on a priority list at all, like you say.
My hope is to show that immediately apparent issues eat into profit, even in the perfect world business plan. *That* is something they will listen to. I never expect them to provide customer service, or not implement more and more P2W type scenarios, or anything like that. Perfect world has been completely consistent in their effort in these areas from day one (that is, very little effort is given, if any at all).
Im certainly not holding my breath, thats for sure. But, the reality is, fixing issues that a new player can see will directly lead to more profit. Whether or not I agree that their model is the most profitable it can be (it isnt) is a completely different story. So, in an attempt to try to appeal to their business model, I think it would be a good decision to strongly look at this and other related issues and test out different solutions to see what may lead to more investment from new players. The issues at end-game are next to irrelevant in this business plan, but the initial blatant issues will hamper their ability to rake in money.
I guess we will see! hahaha. That said, has a dev actually commented on any issue on these boards? All I have seen are community go-betweens, board admins, and moderators. Though, I havent exactly looked much.
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cwiyk13Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited May 2013
20 pages and the closest thing to a Dev response is a stealth-move of the thread out of the forum where it did belong and into a forum where it will receive less exposure. Nice. That's me being sarcastic because it's not nice at all.
I've said it before and I want to reiterate it: I would really like a developer who plays a Devoted Cleric "as their main" to come here and explain why they think Righteousness should not be removed, at least when in a full group. If they really believe they have good reasons to keep this mechanic in place when a cleric is in a full group, then I would sincerely like to hear them. I don't think that's an unreasonable request, certainly not with 20 pages of people voicing their opinions and asking for the same thing.
My fellow Devoted Clerics,
I don't know about the rest of y'all, but since we aren't getting any response here, I'm going to begin sending the same message through any and all mediums I can find, starting with sending a tweet to @NeverwinterGame, @CrypticZinc, @CrypticArkayne and @Wizards_DnD (not part of Cryptic, but I wouldn't mind getting their input on this issue either), then sending a private message to every Dev I've seen in the Dev Tracker, then sending a message through in-game means, and of course, I'll keeping coming back to this thread as well. This issue is really just too important to the future of the Devoted Cleric class for the Devs to remain silent.
P.S. This is the message I'm sending through Twitter: @(one of the four Twitter accounts I listed above) Please ask a Dev to explain why Devoted Clerics must suffer a -40% debuff to self healing (paste the full url of this thread here)
I think that is a good idea. I also think its pertinent to make sure to focus on how it will very likely prevent new players from investing money in the game. Its an issue that becomes blatantly obvious even before level 10, and that isnt good for getting a new player to invest money into the game. This issue synergizes with other issues like GF threat generation and creates a playfield that feels, bluntly, completely unfinished and half-assed. Its these very issues that betas are supposed to work out, so hopefully, we will see something happen.
]20 pages and the closest thing to a Dev response is a stealth-move of the thread out of the forum where it did belong and into a forum where it will receive less exposure. Nice. That's me being sarcastic because it's not nice at all.
It was probably moved to this forum by a moderator, not by a developer. I imagine that the person(s) doing the Cleric class design is more likely to see it here, actually. It's also less spammy in here.
I agree with everything said on Righteousness, it doesn't make me want to play my Cleric alt in dungeons, either.
GWF vs me
GWF 1600 damage and knockdown
200 more damage
I use healing word
200 health
later 180 health
more knockdown
I try to snare
charge immune die stun
np i run like the wind ups charge again sprint
okay illl just nope you cant heal your not a healer class ******!
okay im gonna ah skrew it I am dead!
Here is how all MMOS work this is balancen 101
you have your "tanks": medium to low hitters but high defense and health, effektive against healers, because they can cc and keep them busy while healers cannot kill them
then there is DPS. highest damage and capable of killing most thing easily, works great against tanks.
Healing: low on damage but high on health regen, very good vs dps because they can cancel there damage out and outlast them and kill them.
you pick one, if you whine that clerics can heal themself and you can't and have to use potions, you picked the wrong choice!
I do not complain about not one shotting every single thing.
Here is a healer in NWO: no damage, no healing,no defense. But I got a cool pointy hat so I look like a german soldier from WW2!
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infernalfinishMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited May 2013
Well heres to hoping that the provide an explanation soon :eek:
It was probably moved to this forum by a moderator, not by a developer. I imagine that the person(s) doing the Cleric class design is more likely to see it here, actually. It's also less spammy in here.
I agree with everything said on Righteousness, it doesn't make me want to play my Cleric alt in dungeons, either.
It's definitely less spammy, I'll give you that. Although honestly with 12000 views, I would hope whoever needs to see it, has seen it already
Maybe one day, we'll be able to heal ourselves with impunity!
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noobiieeMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 29Arc User
Agree, agree, and agree. Not being able to heal myself is NUTZ and very UN-FUN. You don't want us to solo? Fine, debuff me when I'm alone. But if I have even one player with me, please lose the debuff.
"Men do not stop playing because they grow old. They grow old because they stop playing." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
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dukemanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 8Arc User
edited May 2013
I just want 1 valid reason why that debuff should exist and as for the guy that said change it to you heal 60% bonus to allies. If we complain we need a healing buff so ourselves the only way to do it would be buff the base (actual spell) which means it auto buffs the heal to allies as well by proxy. By making it a debuff they can change the value of it (hopefully to 0% I mean there is a reason no mmo in "history" has ever done anything this stupid .... its simply <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>).
bumping this again. getting kind of pissed that this is still something that no one on PWE's side has even acknowledged as an issue. i got rid of my cleric; i'll relevel one when development offers a rational explanation as to why Righteousness exists.
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mewbreyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 517Bounty Hunter
edited May 2013
Why do I have a horrible feelings they will remove the 40% healing reduction on us but in return reduce all our healing by 40%. ;_;
Comments
That's somewhat unfortunate, and he probably needs to reroll TR, as solo works quite nicely. It's really not hard at all to level as a DC in this game. It's fairly frictionless compared to levelling as a healer in a ton of other MMOs, where it was a lot more work.
Now, the broken aggro reduction and the healing debuff, on the other hand, are crippling for group play, and just a sign of cack-handed game design and sloppy QA..
We all want a Dev response to this, too many threads ignored, get out of your caves and pay attention to the players that want an answer to this.
This thread is talking about an unfair advantage compared to other classes. I don't feel handicapped on any of my other characters besides the cleric. I use 5x the potions on my cleric then any other while solo or in a group. Why not make it so that all classes have some type of handicap so they can chug down potions just the same?! It's also completely unfair we have to deal with this debuff plus the annoying threat issue to go along with it. And still have yet to hear any word on the aggro issue.
I think this specific issue is a bit more complicated than "just" the righteousness debuff. Combined with threat generation (or lack of) from GFs, this starts to turn into a serious *gameplay issue* that is simply not specific to one class. This affects everyone. Of course, it was moved to put it in a place with less exposure. Also known as sweeping it under the rug, lol.
The only place I can see an issue with completely removing the debuff would be PvP. Which is why PvP and PvE should always, always be separate entities when it comes to class balance and changes. I dont know if thats the case in this game, but I would be more surprised if it was actually split than if it is all done as blanket changes.
This is supposed to be a beta, after all. Testing out different levels of the debuff and making adjustments based on metrics and community feedback would be standard. Then again, its perfect world.. soooo.... I dont expect much. Some of the games they publish, like this one, have a great core game. And while ALL game companies are concerned with profit and the bottom line, they usually do not do it at the expense of quality and customer satisfaction. The reality is that this setup will raise the percentages of profit, even just a little, for the publisher. That tells me, given that its perfect world, that it is unlikely to ever change. I would love to be wrong about that, but only time will tell.
This is an issue that becomes immediately apparent. Being in the F2P market, high turnover is expected, and the idea is to get as much money as possible before that turn over occurs. By hiding many issues in the later game, or the "P2W" factor, you already have your players very invested in the game and this makes them less likely to jump ship. However, with issues like this, it may very well prevent possible paying customers from investing anything at all into the game because of a severely flawed fight dynamic.
By fixing these types of issues, you can still rely on high turnover, high initial investment profit. By not fixing it, it undoubtedly makes many people think twice (at least) before investing any of their funds into this game instead of the plethora of other options available. Again, given that this is supposedly beta, making changes that increase the percentage of players who will make a high initial investment is a very good thing. Testing this out, and balancing according to metrics, is a smart way to approach the situation.
Exactly. I want people to support this game, and anyone coming here looking to be an uber healer is going to be let down big time when they have to use the most pots/stones in a group because of some lame debuff that we have for some reason.
If they really want people to play a cleric at all, they really need to rethink this whole Righteousness thing.
Edit: In fact, my cleric IS shelved until something is done about it. Just logged in and got a dungeon pop but when I thought about how every single fight was going to end with me sprinting in circles chugging potions I just couldn't be bothered with it.
Thats how I feel too. I get that its not the same as a dedicated healer in many other games, and in fact, I PREFER that playstyle personally. But, I find it extremely strange that the most effective companion I have found for my cleric is... another cleric. It points to a serious "frontline" issue that may prevent new players from investing into the game.
I know how perfect world works, and have no illusions about it.
However, the combat mechanics in this game are heavily flawed and immediately apparent. This is not limited to just righteousness, but it is definitely one of the more blatant issues. I know that they dont care about turnover or player retention, but I do know they care about getting as much profit as possible before that happens and this issue, amongst others, will undoubtedly eat into the efficacy of their business plan.
Completely removing it may not be the best option, but obviously, this is an issue to the player base. And given that its one that is even clear to a "newbie" such as myself, it should be high on the priority list.
I am of the opinion that its not on a priority list at all, like you say.
My hope is to show that immediately apparent issues eat into profit, even in the perfect world business plan. *That* is something they will listen to. I never expect them to provide customer service, or not implement more and more P2W type scenarios, or anything like that. Perfect world has been completely consistent in their effort in these areas from day one (that is, very little effort is given, if any at all).
Im certainly not holding my breath, thats for sure. But, the reality is, fixing issues that a new player can see will directly lead to more profit. Whether or not I agree that their model is the most profitable it can be (it isnt) is a completely different story. So, in an attempt to try to appeal to their business model, I think it would be a good decision to strongly look at this and other related issues and test out different solutions to see what may lead to more investment from new players. The issues at end-game are next to irrelevant in this business plan, but the initial blatant issues will hamper their ability to rake in money.
I guess we will see! hahaha. That said, has a dev actually commented on any issue on these boards? All I have seen are community go-betweens, board admins, and moderators. Though, I havent exactly looked much.
I've said it before and I want to reiterate it: I would really like a developer who plays a Devoted Cleric "as their main" to come here and explain why they think Righteousness should not be removed, at least when in a full group. If they really believe they have good reasons to keep this mechanic in place when a cleric is in a full group, then I would sincerely like to hear them. I don't think that's an unreasonable request, certainly not with 20 pages of people voicing their opinions and asking for the same thing.
My fellow Devoted Clerics,
I don't know about the rest of y'all, but since we aren't getting any response here, I'm going to begin sending the same message through any and all mediums I can find, starting with sending a tweet to @NeverwinterGame, @CrypticZinc, @CrypticArkayne and @Wizards_DnD (not part of Cryptic, but I wouldn't mind getting their input on this issue either), then sending a private message to every Dev I've seen in the Dev Tracker, then sending a message through in-game means, and of course, I'll keeping coming back to this thread as well. This issue is really just too important to the future of the Devoted Cleric class for the Devs to remain silent.
P.S. This is the message I'm sending through Twitter:
@(one of the four Twitter accounts I listed above) Please ask a Dev to explain why Devoted Clerics must suffer a -40% debuff to self healing (paste the full url of this thread here)
I think that is a good idea. I also think its pertinent to make sure to focus on how it will very likely prevent new players from investing money in the game. Its an issue that becomes blatantly obvious even before level 10, and that isnt good for getting a new player to invest money into the game. This issue synergizes with other issues like GF threat generation and creates a playfield that feels, bluntly, completely unfinished and half-assed. Its these very issues that betas are supposed to work out, so hopefully, we will see something happen.
Bring me my Arrows of desire:
Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of fire!"
It was probably moved to this forum by a moderator, not by a developer. I imagine that the person(s) doing the Cleric class design is more likely to see it here, actually. It's also less spammy in here.
I agree with everything said on Righteousness, it doesn't make me want to play my Cleric alt in dungeons, either.
GWF vs me
GWF 1600 damage and knockdown
200 more damage
I use healing word
200 health
later 180 health
more knockdown
I try to snare
charge immune die stun
np i run like the wind ups charge again sprint
okay illl just nope you cant heal your not a healer class ******!
okay im gonna ah skrew it I am dead!
Here is how all MMOS work this is balancen 101
you have your "tanks": medium to low hitters but high defense and health, effektive against healers, because they can cc and keep them busy while healers cannot kill them
then there is DPS. highest damage and capable of killing most thing easily, works great against tanks.
Healing: low on damage but high on health regen, very good vs dps because they can cancel there damage out and outlast them and kill them.
you pick one, if you whine that clerics can heal themself and you can't and have to use potions, you picked the wrong choice!
I do not complain about not one shotting every single thing.
Here is a healer in NWO: no damage, no healing,no defense. But I got a cool pointy hat so I look like a german soldier from WW2!
It's definitely less spammy, I'll give you that. Although honestly with 12000 views, I would hope whoever needs to see it, has seen it already
Maybe one day, we'll be able to heal ourselves with impunity!
This is stupid!