You can buy increase EXP scrolls, so what can you not buy?
Does anyone actually buy these?
Seriously, if they had an decrease EXP scroll, I'd be more likely to buy that than one to increase. Leveling way too fast, can't participate in some activities (like dailies, or pvp, or skirmishes, or whatever) because I'll outlevel the other ones.
just to keep up with the regular playerbase.
I guess that matters if you're part of that competitive "keeping up with the Jones'" crowd. Personally, I've never understood the attraction. /shrug
When you finally pin anyone complaining about Pay to win down they are always complaining about PVP and only PVP.
As someone who personally avoids PVP like it's a more virulent plague than unregulated player markets (which I've never had the same luck exploiting that others have, so call my distaste for them sour grapes if you like), when I make complaints in the vein of "pay to win" it's about accessibility, convenience, and not getting gouged. For instance, there've been a few games I've played that have extraordinarily tedious level progression and then offer XP gain bonuses in their cash shop which I might label "pay to win".
Not that I'd confidently label the purchasable items in this game as "pay to win". Some of them are about the price of a full game for a minor convenience and bit of shininess on a single character, so I might call them ridiculously overpriced, but thus far they seem too easily ignorable to label "pay to win". To me, for them to be "pay to win" I'd have to feel like I was "losing" if I didn't pay.
Please tell me what gear you are getting from lockboxes that are the best? I'd like to know, because I'm still wearing things I've found from world drops and have opened plenty of lockboxes.
Thats one thing. When the game goes defenetly live, I want more gear, and I want it in different models. Its quite boring being lvl 22 rogue and look like all other lvl 22 rogue. Dyes dont really cut it item-wise.
The guy who said that is full of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on many accounts, especially about Jack's leaving, folks begged to have him back after he left. if you want to find legitimate strong arguments against Cryptic there are plenty, don't quote from a Known agenda based hater.
also you cant get the best gear out of the lockboxes its pay to get ahead at the most but hte best gear you have to get by playing the game and also by working (farming dungeons pvp etc)
I can only imagine how much will cost tomes too upgrade your companions from uncommon to common to rare and to very rare.
For rare gear you need over 2 mill AD for a full set if you do not plan too walk around in green gear like you just started too play.
Devs must do something.
I have run dungeons and skirmishes and not a single rare gear usefull for my warrior is droped.
While I'm not a fan of cash shops (I understand their need in a f2p game,) I don't believe that NWO is a P2W. There is almost nothing in the cash shop that makes you 'win.' Yes there are res scrolls that bring you back up but in my experience to 50 so far they haven't been needed. Faster mounts might be useful in pvp, but PvE wise its purely cosmetic and convenience. Some followers in the zen shop are quite good but I don't think they are game breaking.
Of ALL the things in the cash shop that I think is ridiculous, bag space is the one that gets my goat. If I didn't buy the 24 slot bag 5 levels ago, my inventory would currently have NO space for loot because of all the gems, runes, kits and pots I have. I don't see myself ever running out of level 1-5 enchantments as my inventory is spilling over with them.
I have had no issues with astral diamonds, even after speeding up my companion training multiple times. I know I have 600k from the guardian pack but only a couple times have I ever dropped below that level (by a couple of k.) I've got almost 900k, 300k of that from the AH, dailies and crafting.
In short, other than bags, there's nothing I -need- from the zen shop. This may change in endgame which I haven't reached yet though. I wonder if the mount upgrades are even necessary, they're probably just convenience.
Don't be dense. You don't have to do anything, ever. Just because you don't have to do something does not invalidate an argument.
I don't have to travel across the earth to know it is round, not flat.
For example, if you could buy an item to immediately max your level and provide you with level appropriate gear that might be considered "pay to win" regardless of the fact that you could max your level just by playing the game.
I rather pay $15 a month, and play with players who can afford $15 a month to get rid of this ridiculous cash shop.
Not me. I'm not renting access to my games anymore. I've spent a little over $300 in Rift over the last two years and when I stop paying all the money I spent is gone unless I cough up more money. If I spend that much in this game, I still get to access it and the content.
I really wish the sub-locked p2p proponents weren't so cheap. No one is forcing you to buy anything.
Good thing for you that there are sub-locked games available. Good thing for me there are tons of sub-free games available.
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peterfsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
For example, if you could buy an item to immediately max your level and provide you with level appropriate gear that might be considered "pay to win" regardless of the fact that you could max your level just by playing the game.
Right, the idea that the argument for this NOT being a pay to win game is: you don't have to do it, or It can be done ingame.
This is an informal fallacy, because you do not have to do "it" is not a proper argument. Much like a mother telling a child, because I said so.
If you can, do it, it's pay to win. Not if you don't have to.
While the price will go down you can always make AD selling things on the AH and doing it right you can bring in easily 100K - 1M+ a day using the AH. Lots of people play the AH harder than others play PVP, and frankly they do very good at it. Every time I've dabbled in selling stuff regularly in the AH in any game I've done very well and found I had zero money problems with that games currency.
Meanwhile, I've never been able to "play the market" in games. WoW? Never had enough to buy anything good.
And anyway - the "take advantage of the auction" thing only works for a fraction of the playerbase - if everyone did it, there wouldn't be anyone to buy the stuff and there wouldn't be any mis-priced things to resell (cause they're all playing the market right).
Like others I wonder what the market will be like in 2-3 months, when all the "instant" AD from the founders isn't floating around the economy anymore, and everyone has to make do on the 0-24k rough produced by each player a day. When there's "gold sinks" into the millions.
And then there's always the not-enjoying-that-playstyle thing.... not everyone likes to play Bloomberg Commodity Trader 2013. But they're still playing adventurers who'd like to be able to get some gear, and maybe do some appearance transfers on gear/upgrade their companion/buy a key off the auction once in a while.
Well, we'll see how it all shakes out. I know Cryptic has done some balanced on STO in the past (sources & rates of dilithium gain & expenditure/etc), so it's possible here too. Depends on how things work out in the longer run. Hard to judge anything right now, because economies at the start of MMOs are usually all bunged up, even without issues like the vast piles o' Guardian diamonds.
Let's see...2 million AD for a mount upgrade. Let's do the math here.
24k Astral Diamonds a day.
2 million required for 'upgrade'.
That's over 83 days of grinding and using AD for NOTHING ELSE.
You could always play the AH, I suppose. There's no telling how much you could earn off of that. I, personally, do not buy AD items off the AH though, because the AD I got from my founder pack is the only AD I will ever have, and I need that for enchants.
...if I ever play the game again, that is.
"The only AD I will every have."
What, are you too lazy to click a button to do an invocation once an hour, and do a daily quest? Really?
well now, you can get more than 24k a day, if you find something nice you can sell it on ah for a ton of AD my friend earned 200k for a random drop he found. and i bet theres alot more of those drops at end game too.
Oh, and you people have an INCREDIBLY odd definition of pay to win. It's almost like you're just a bunch of lazy gits who are just really, really bitter they don't have money to blow on the game.
Pay-to-win ACTUALLY means that you don't really have a chance if you don't pay. Games like RoM, where you actually literally get better stats for the money you spend, better stats than you can get without spending money, are pay-to-win. This game is pay-for-convenience. None of it actually gives you a basic numerical advantage over anything you can get just playing the game. It's not pay-to-win.
You can buy an advantage over someone who has not spent any money. You can buy power (stats) that will make you stronger than pay to play players. Players who are 100% playing for free will always be behind because players who pay will always be ahead in terms of gears and progression.
A completely free player can do everything you said, though it will just take them longer. You are wrong. /dropmic
- bpphantom
Grace, Tiefling Devoted Cleric
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are. Then leave the rest to Batman."
My definition of Pay to Win is better than yours! Mine is the REAL definition, it says so on the imaginary dictionary I have. And because my definition is the best definition, everything else you say is invalid.
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peterfsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
My definition of Pay to Win is better than yours! Mine is the REAL definition, it says so on the imaginary dictionary I have. And because my definition is the best definition, everything else you say is invalid.
If you think this is pay-to-win, you should go play Conquer Online, then the complaint would easily be proven as the truth.
IMO, it's more pay-to-advance because there is very little that actually gives an advantage over same level players. You still have to level yourself to cap to use the best gear, the companions are pretty much useless endgame (as often as they die) -- probably the most useful one at the moment is available to every player through novice quests, mount speed is a convenience, profession packs are a convenience, gear from trade bars is not as good as drake gear (which everyone has to grind for,) wards for making enchantments are available via celestial coins and, even then, higher enchantments drop at endgame, and pretty much every profession resource is available as drops and loots. There isn't really anything that gives a paying player an advantage, it just accelerates them through PVE.
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nemesis788450Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
i sold random drops for over 400k on the ah in playing in about a week and all that stuff was randomly acquired (no lockboxes and the such)...i agree prices are quiet steep, but especially ad exchange is also dropping sharply these days...started with 500 and has allready lost up to 15% from their so... i would expect to drop a lot lower. I assume pwe knows that why they started rather high. im not a huge fan of cash shops either cause you usually spend up paying a lot more. On the other hand, you dont have to spend a cent - my friend who plays with me hasnt spent 1 dollar on the game and is hitting 60 any moment. I for myelf can easily say, i didnt have that much fun with an mmo (or game) in a reaaaaaly long time and looking at the cost per hour gameplay, thats one of the cheapest pleasures i ever had except maybe reading a cheap bookl
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jorealMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Right, the idea that the argument for this NOT being a pay to win game is: you don't have to do it, or It can be done ingame.
This is an informal fallacy, because you do not have to do "it" is not a proper argument. Much like a mother telling a child, because I said so.
If you can, do it, it's pay to win. Not if you don't have to.
Except the items you get from the shop aren't the best items in the game. There are better items that you can get from drops that you cannot buy in the shop. The shop offers some ability to get a head start through a more powerful low level weapon and a random set of blue gear, but it is quickly replaced through playing. You can get all the mounts and riding with AD and yes you can buy AD through the Zen/AD conversion, but that doesn't make it pay to win.
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bpphantomMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
OP you are correct, but you worded it horribly by singling out the only people that will keep this game alive till August-October, the span in which it will definitely be floating in the same levels of the mediocre MMO space with the rest of this company's games. That is why everyone is blowing up this thread; you offended them. They spent $200 and they have the right to defend their purchase. Hell, I paid $60 for the game and don't feel like I got a damned thing worth my time but for some reason the PvP is keeping me slightly entertained in my quest for Wildstar/TESO patience or lackthereof.
The reason why this game is pay to win is because I can join as a free account right now, level something to 60, buy some zen convert it to AD and go buy all of the top tier dungeon gear right off the auction house without ever stepping foot into the dungeons in which they came from. This is the point people seem to miss. And I'm sorry but this game won't ever get anything beyond "epic dungeons with boss fights that have no more difficult mechanics than summoning adds." You can defend the company all you want, but you and I both know that this game won't get heavy content updates like that. They might add more "epic" dungeons at some point but that's pretty much it, so yes, the gear you get from the current epic dungeons is indeed endgame/top tier gear. While mounts do give an advantage in PvP, the bind on equip items affects every single person playing the game no matter which side (PvE or PvP they take part in). All it takes for me to out-DPS you, out-heal you, out-tank you/whatever is to go look up a cookie cutter build on the forums, punch in my credit card number and buy up all the gear you worked for in the top tier dungeons and boom, I win.
That is called pay to win. If you argue with that.. I don't know what to tell you other than "it's staring you in the face."
Players do not like this. They do not like feeling as if all the time they invested to get in a good guild, run the dungeons however many nights a week looking for a certain drop, and finally getting said drop means nothing because someone else can just swipe their card and have it for no effort whatsoever. This information is all over the place, it's not new, it's not a secret, and I don't know why everyone and their dog is acting like it's perfectly okay. This is the reason why free to play games generally get a lot of complaints and suck hard.
Comments
Does anyone actually buy these?
Seriously, if they had an decrease EXP scroll, I'd be more likely to buy that than one to increase. Leveling way too fast, can't participate in some activities (like dailies, or pvp, or skirmishes, or whatever) because I'll outlevel the other ones.
I guess that matters if you're part of that competitive "keeping up with the Jones'" crowd. Personally, I've never understood the attraction. /shrug
As someone who personally avoids PVP like it's a more virulent plague than unregulated player markets (which I've never had the same luck exploiting that others have, so call my distaste for them sour grapes if you like), when I make complaints in the vein of "pay to win" it's about accessibility, convenience, and not getting gouged. For instance, there've been a few games I've played that have extraordinarily tedious level progression and then offer XP gain bonuses in their cash shop which I might label "pay to win".
Not that I'd confidently label the purchasable items in this game as "pay to win". Some of them are about the price of a full game for a minor convenience and bit of shininess on a single character, so I might call them ridiculously overpriced, but thus far they seem too easily ignorable to label "pay to win". To me, for them to be "pay to win" I'd have to feel like I was "losing" if I didn't pay.
Thats one thing. When the game goes defenetly live, I want more gear, and I want it in different models. Its quite boring being lvl 22 rogue and look like all other lvl 22 rogue. Dyes dont really cut it item-wise.
The guy who said that is full of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on many accounts, especially about Jack's leaving, folks begged to have him back after he left. if you want to find legitimate strong arguments against Cryptic there are plenty, don't quote from a Known agenda based hater.
But the fact that you can, makes it pay to win.
Don't be dense. You don't have to do anything, ever. Just because you don't have to do something does not invalidate an argument.
I don't have to travel across the earth to know it is round, not flat.
For rare gear you need over 2 mill AD for a full set if you do not plan too walk around in green gear like you just started too play.
Devs must do something.
I have run dungeons and skirmishes and not a single rare gear usefull for my warrior is droped.
Of ALL the things in the cash shop that I think is ridiculous, bag space is the one that gets my goat. If I didn't buy the 24 slot bag 5 levels ago, my inventory would currently have NO space for loot because of all the gems, runes, kits and pots I have. I don't see myself ever running out of level 1-5 enchantments as my inventory is spilling over with them.
I have had no issues with astral diamonds, even after speeding up my companion training multiple times. I know I have 600k from the guardian pack but only a couple times have I ever dropped below that level (by a couple of k.) I've got almost 900k, 300k of that from the AH, dailies and crafting.
In short, other than bags, there's nothing I -need- from the zen shop. This may change in endgame which I haven't reached yet though. I wonder if the mount upgrades are even necessary, they're probably just convenience.
For example, if you could buy an item to immediately max your level and provide you with level appropriate gear that might be considered "pay to win" regardless of the fact that you could max your level just by playing the game.
Not me. I'm not renting access to my games anymore. I've spent a little over $300 in Rift over the last two years and when I stop paying all the money I spent is gone unless I cough up more money. If I spend that much in this game, I still get to access it and the content.
I really wish the sub-locked p2p proponents weren't so cheap. No one is forcing you to buy anything.
Good thing for you that there are sub-locked games available. Good thing for me there are tons of sub-free games available.
Right, the idea that the argument for this NOT being a pay to win game is: you don't have to do it, or It can be done ingame.
This is an informal fallacy, because you do not have to do "it" is not a proper argument. Much like a mother telling a child, because I said so.
If you can, do it, it's pay to win. Not if you don't have to.
Meanwhile, I've never been able to "play the market" in games. WoW? Never had enough to buy anything good.
And anyway - the "take advantage of the auction" thing only works for a fraction of the playerbase - if everyone did it, there wouldn't be anyone to buy the stuff and there wouldn't be any mis-priced things to resell (cause they're all playing the market right).
Like others I wonder what the market will be like in 2-3 months, when all the "instant" AD from the founders isn't floating around the economy anymore, and everyone has to make do on the 0-24k rough produced by each player a day. When there's "gold sinks" into the millions.
And then there's always the not-enjoying-that-playstyle thing.... not everyone likes to play Bloomberg Commodity Trader 2013. But they're still playing adventurers who'd like to be able to get some gear, and maybe do some appearance transfers on gear/upgrade their companion/buy a key off the auction once in a while.
Well, we'll see how it all shakes out. I know Cryptic has done some balanced on STO in the past (sources & rates of dilithium gain & expenditure/etc), so it's possible here too. Depends on how things work out in the longer run. Hard to judge anything right now, because economies at the start of MMOs are usually all bunged up, even without issues like the vast piles o' Guardian diamonds.
Until they shut the game down. You're still renting, there's just a stronger illusion of ownership.
"The only AD I will every have."
What, are you too lazy to click a button to do an invocation once an hour, and do a daily quest? Really?
Pay-to-win ACTUALLY means that you don't really have a chance if you don't pay. Games like RoM, where you actually literally get better stats for the money you spend, better stats than you can get without spending money, are pay-to-win. This game is pay-for-convenience. None of it actually gives you a basic numerical advantage over anything you can get just playing the game. It's not pay-to-win.
Get over it guys.
A completely free player can do everything you said, though it will just take them longer. You are wrong. /dropmic
Grace, Tiefling Devoted Cleric
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are. Then leave the rest to Batman."
Right, the idea that the argument for this NOT being a pay to win game is: you don't have to do it, or It can be done ingame.
This is an informal fallacy, because you do not have to do "it" is not a proper argument. Much like a mother telling a child, because I said so.
If you can, do it, it's pay to win. Not if you don't have to.
watch kripp's video on the broken mechanics of PVP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
perfect
IMO, it's more pay-to-advance because there is very little that actually gives an advantage over same level players. You still have to level yourself to cap to use the best gear, the companions are pretty much useless endgame (as often as they die) -- probably the most useful one at the moment is available to every player through novice quests, mount speed is a convenience, profession packs are a convenience, gear from trade bars is not as good as drake gear (which everyone has to grind for,) wards for making enchantments are available via celestial coins and, even then, higher enchantments drop at endgame, and pretty much every profession resource is available as drops and loots. There isn't really anything that gives a paying player an advantage, it just accelerates them through PVE.
Except the items you get from the shop aren't the best items in the game. There are better items that you can get from drops that you cannot buy in the shop. The shop offers some ability to get a head start through a more powerful low level weapon and a random set of blue gear, but it is quickly replaced through playing. You can get all the mounts and riding with AD and yes you can buy AD through the Zen/AD conversion, but that doesn't make it pay to win.
Nope. You're still wrong. It's pay to do it faster.
I can walk downtown. I could take a cab, or bus, or buy a car... OMG P2GoDowntown!
Grace, Tiefling Devoted Cleric
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are. Then leave the rest to Batman."
This is a casual pve game, who cares if you don't have the top gear in the first week, really.
The reason why this game is pay to win is because I can join as a free account right now, level something to 60, buy some zen convert it to AD and go buy all of the top tier dungeon gear right off the auction house without ever stepping foot into the dungeons in which they came from. This is the point people seem to miss. And I'm sorry but this game won't ever get anything beyond "epic dungeons with boss fights that have no more difficult mechanics than summoning adds." You can defend the company all you want, but you and I both know that this game won't get heavy content updates like that. They might add more "epic" dungeons at some point but that's pretty much it, so yes, the gear you get from the current epic dungeons is indeed endgame/top tier gear. While mounts do give an advantage in PvP, the bind on equip items affects every single person playing the game no matter which side (PvE or PvP they take part in). All it takes for me to out-DPS you, out-heal you, out-tank you/whatever is to go look up a cookie cutter build on the forums, punch in my credit card number and buy up all the gear you worked for in the top tier dungeons and boom, I win.
That is called pay to win. If you argue with that.. I don't know what to tell you other than "it's staring you in the face."
Players do not like this. They do not like feeling as if all the time they invested to get in a good guild, run the dungeons however many nights a week looking for a certain drop, and finally getting said drop means nothing because someone else can just swipe their card and have it for no effort whatsoever. This information is all over the place, it's not new, it's not a secret, and I don't know why everyone and their dog is acting like it's perfectly okay. This is the reason why free to play games generally get a lot of complaints and suck hard.