Well the simple fact that you NEED to spend Zen to get high level enchantments (it's 1% of success without wards) makes the game pay to win.
The ONLY way to get high level enchantments is to pay for them with Zen. There is no other way, at all.
So, yes...pay to win.
I keep seeing people make that claim. So your saying that I am imagining seeing all those wards in the Auction house with buyout prices in the 130K or so range, and preservation wards with buy outs of oh 3K or so. The ONLY way I can get wards is from the Zen store?
I keep seeing people make that claim. So your saying that I am imagining seeing all those wards in the Auction house with buyout prices in the 130K or so range, and preservation wards with buy outs of oh 3K or so. The ONLY way I can get wards is from the Zen store?
But... but... <ALL-CAPS Removed per the RoC for this and trolling>
So, if I paid to win, can I have my lv. 60 P2W gear please?
ya know i find it hard to see payto win. in PVE game yes there is pvp BUT you dont have to pvp..sohow is it p2w when when the better gear in PVE. helps other players and he wont need on the gear you want . ??????
but there isnt gear in the cash shop anyways. i can buy zen and purchase ad from other players giving them my zen so how am i at an advantage when other player profit from my rl purchase of zen?
If you can buy power then it is Pay 2 Win for me. It might not be for you because there is no single correct definition for P2W. Arguing about how it is defined is utterly pointless and beyond stupid. It is a complete waste of time.
Whether pay to win or not, the game is free. For me it's not so much a question of ptw, but rather that the cash shop smacks of greed...prices are exorbitant. I don't like greedy companies.
I think casual players or fanboys have this totally jaded view of what pay to win is
Pay to win doesnt mean "Can I get to 60 without paying?" Of course you can. Pay to win is always relative to PvP or end-game. Can I outskill someone whose blown $500 on the game if I choose to spend $0? Most likely not, their gear will be far superior to mine with their epic lockboxes, even if I play 5x more than they play.
If you are a progression raid, which guy is more valuable to you: The guy who paid $500, has better gear than you because of it, or the guy who paid $0 who despite playing 5x more than you isnt up to your level gear wise? The prior. The grind is absolutely ridiculous as duly noted and so is the conversion rate to get Astral Diamonds.
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bzzzdMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If you can buy power then it is Pay 2 Win for me. It might not be for you because there is no single correct definition for P2W. Arguing about how it is defined is utterly pointless and beyond stupid. It is a complete waste of time.
so someone will have better gear than you.
in a sub based game, the one with more time and money for the sub will grind longer thus will have better gear than you
in a f2p game, the one with more time OR money will grind longer or just buy it, thus will be better than you.
in the end there will ALWAYS be someone better than you. the only difference between p2p and f2p is that you can use money as a shortcut.
I think casual players or fanboys have this totally jaded view of what pay to win is
Pay to win doesnt mean "Can I get to 60 without paying?" Of course you can. Pay to win is always relative to PvP or end-game. Can I outskill someone whose blown $500 on the game if I choose to spend $0? Most likely not, their gear will be far superior to mine with their epic lockboxes, even if I play 5x more than they play.
If you are a progression raid, which guy is more valuable to you: The guy who paid $500, has better gear than you because of it, or the guy who paid $0 who despite playing 5x more than you isnt up to your level gear wise? The prior. The grind is absolutely ridiculous as duly noted and so is the conversion rate to get Astral Diamonds.
Well, since all gear is accessible through doing dungeons and grinding up tokens for gear... there's no pay to win feature. Yeah, you get bonus AD if you buy zen and sell it, that doesn't mean you're capable of getting better gear than anyone else your level that is doing the same dungeons that you are - it just means faster, if the person even *buys* the piece of gear rather than go out and get it.
Far superior due to lockboxes? I don't think so, personally. All of that can be grinded out, too, without the need for quick Rank 5's from the lockboxes.
Also, so many people are making Rank 5 and Rank 6 runes that their value on the auction house are decreasing by the day...
Well, since all gear is accessible through doing dungeons and grinding up tokens for gear... there's no pay to win feature. Yeah, you get bonus AD if you buy zen and sell it, that doesn't mean you're capable of getting better gear than anyone else your level that is doing the same dungeons that you are - it just means faster, if the person even *buys* the piece of gear rather than go out and get it.
Far superior due to lockboxes? I don't think so, personally. All of that can be grinded out, too, without the need for quick Rank 5's from the lockboxes.
Also, so many people are making Rank 5 and Rank 6 runes that their value on the auction house are decreasing by the day...
So are you just ignoring the 1% success rate on the best enchantments on gear? You can pay to fix that though.
Also, the fastest mounts in the game help in PvP a lot for control ones. Gets you there faster.
Also, didnt the $200 bundle give you a lockbox with an epic weapon?
So are you just ignoring the 1% success rate on the best enchantments on gear? You can pay to fix that though.
Also, the fastest mounts in the game help in PvP a lot for control ones. Gets you there faster.
Also, didnt the $200 bundle give you a lockbox with an epic weapon?
Also, T1 weapons drop. Also, wards can be acquired without buying anything.
The mount for PVP thing? Yeah, that's a downside, but it's in no way going to limit your ability to PVP in terms of facerolling target and winning/losing/kiting.
Yes, there's pay for feature options - no, none of them are game killing or impossible to accomplish by someone willing to farm it (just like any MMO that has payment options or not that I can think of off the top of my head, tbh)
WTB Big-Giant Robot Camels, tbh...
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bzzzdMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So are you just ignoring the 1% success rate on the best enchantments on gear? You can pay to fix that though.
Also, the fastest mounts in the game help in PvP a lot for control ones. Gets you there faster.
how many people have BIS in wow?
how much of an advantage is it to ride to a point alone to get ganked? (tbh mount speed is debatable, but the whole system is pretty f*cked anyway, mounts are the least of it's problems).
how much of an advantage is it to ride to a point alone to get ganked? (tbh mount speed is debatable, but the whole system is pretty f*cked anyway, mounts are the least of it's problems).
So that's a valid justification for asking a 160 dollars for a single BiS enchant? And yeah you can get the blue wards by other means too but considering the amount you need it is not realistic in the least.
Speed can only be an advantage. It might not always help but often it does and it certainly never hurts.
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mcwaffle777Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 28Arc User
edited May 2013
I have sold over 1k US dollars in PoE gear, its pay 2 win you just choose not to notice.
Then you're <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> cause you cannot buy gear from the zen market you can use items from the zen market and sell them for loot in-game like any F2P person can.
You can also play completely free and convert the money you earn from the auction house or just AD and convert that currency into Zen which allows you to do the same thing it might not be as fast but thats the model and for me its amazing.
ummm yes you can...
Step 1: buy AD off the market, you can convert Zen into AD meaning, you can effecrtively turn cash into in game currency. Do to all items in this game being BoE this means every single item in game will be on the AH at some point.
Step 2: purchase enough AD to buy full epic set
Step 3: buy wards and enchantments
Step 4: equip said power
You just PAID FOR POWER! thus you paid 2 win... don't tell me thats not p2w because it is... buying power=p2w...that is the truth of the matter. People throwing money at this game will always beat those that do not.
Drinking mah beer...chilling by the campfire...reading threads on the inter....WTF????
I see people ARGUING about playing a game????
Two sides you say?
One side says you can purchase things to finish said game before installing said game....
Another side says you can PLAY the game and enjoy said game...
I knew I should have rolled a Wizard...he would have had the intelligence to make the proper "DUHHHHHH" check.
This response is for all lurkers "such as myself" to remind people why we play a game....our own definition of "fun".
You want to start at day one of a game and PVP/PVE at a high level.... the credit card swipe is over here....
You want to play this game over an extended period of time "A.K.A. hobby with little to no financial investment"...here are the tools you need to succeed.
Me, Myself and I all agree that after years of time vested and games played that the correct approach is to sit back and sip on a cold pint while you watch the forum wars of two sides that will never see eye to eye until they themselves actually cross the line...
Make your own path...as long as it is not in front of my path on the way to the bar.
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bzzzdMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So that's a valid justification for asking a 160 dollars for a single BiS enchant? And yeah you can get the blue wards by other means too but considering the amount you need it is not realistic in the least.
justification? no. but it put things into perspective. how much time/money do you have to spend to go from lvl1 to BIS in wow? considering you start fresh and not just roll an alt in a progression-guild. and compared to wow, how much is BIS actually worth in nw gameplay-wise?
I'm not saying $160 is acceptable (in the end, what is? and $160 is a theoretical number anyway), but it's one thing to say WAAAH FARMING FOR THE BEST IS EXPENSIVE OR TAKES AGES IT SUXX while happily playing wow where FARMING FOR THE BEST TAKES AGES AND STILL COSTS MONEY BEST GAME EVARRR!! (that's not directed at you specifically, but that kind of hypocrisy is in every discussion)
Speed can only be an advantage. It might not always help but often it does and it certainly never hurts.
on paper. with the current maps and systems, being somewhere faster is a ridiculously minimal advantage. does it suck personally that someone rides of? sure. a better coordinated team will still win (which currently will be a premade, so 110% means squat)
Wonder what people will say when the foundry astral diamonds are all gone and people can only get 24k a day because most of the astral diamonds have been spent on either enchants, companions or other astral diamond sinks and it's harder to earn astral diamonds from the auction house because nothing is selling or selling for such a low ammount.
Wonder what people will say when the foundry astral diamonds are all gone and people can only get 24k a day because most of the astral diamonds have been spent on either enchants, companions or other astral diamond sinks and it's harder to earn astral diamonds from the auction house because nothing is selling or selling for such a low ammount.
I wonder what people will say when they figure out you posted BS.
24k ROUGH AD to AD is the DAILY limit.
You can earn as much AD as you are willing to invest time.
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bzzzdMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Wonder what people will say when the foundry astral diamonds are all gone and people can only get 24k a day because most of the astral diamonds have been spent on either enchants, companions or other astral diamond sinks and it's harder to earn astral diamonds from the auction house because nothing is selling or selling for such a low ammount.
If you absolutely can't wait, then you pay to have nice stuff now. Otherwise you just have to put some effort into it.
What defines p2w? a company that sells there gear on an item shop, thus facilitating buying or purchasing of power.
Zen=AD
Epics are BoE
Zen=AD=Epics=buying power=pw2
Sorry if you cant grasp that concept... but buying power is same thing as paying to win... its just the cold hard facts. Bypassing game play and hours and hours and hours of grinding, getting best enchantments, getting the absolute best gear available... allows one to jump into pvp or pve with best of the best available. For me and many others this is the same thing as p2w... you can argue that all you want...
But most of us are pretty sound in our judgement on this fact. The shop itself isnt pay 2 win but, the ability to convert zen to in game cash is quite frankly most <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> thing in the world. All of that said! cash shop is still stupidly over priced =P dont like what i have to say? then ignore me...but i aint going anywhere!
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princecharmingsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 6Arc User
Buy zen and you can buy the best companions, buy zen and you can open lockboxes and get the best gears. Buy zen and you can get packages that hinders profession, enchantments, revive scrolls, respec scrolls.
Basically if you keep paying, you will never die ( full hp potions in zen store and revive scrolls), get the fastest mounts (will cost over 2million astro diamond to upgrade from Mount II to Mount III to get the 110% speed). You can buy keys to unlock nightmare boxes and get currency to exchange for the best gears. You can buy the best companions with stat bonuses.
You can buy increase EXP scrolls, so what can you not buy?
A game that is truly free to play and not pay to win is Path of Exile.
In Path of Exile, there are no +EXP scrolls, you cant not buy any gears/mounts/items at all. Everything is purely cosmetic like weapon effects and stash tab.
I think bags/bank slots are not pay to win in this game, everything else is.
Definition of Pay to Win:
You can buy an advantage over someone who has not spent any money. You can buy power (stats) that will make you stronger than pay to play players. Players who are 100% playing for free will always be behind because players who pay will always be ahead in terms of gears and progression.
What is the best companion...? They are the same to me... I don't think there is a best, but who is useful or not.
You can use AD to get lockboxes for gear.
There is no exp scroll in zen market.
What is the best companion...? They are the same to me... I don't think there is a best, but who is useful or not.
You can use AD to get lockboxes for gear.
There is no exp scroll in zen market.
Companions are useful subject to the situation that you're in. There is no best in my opinion, either, as several of them are handy to have sometimes.
Buy zen and you can buy the best companions, buy zen and you can open lockboxes and get the best gears. Buy zen and you can get packages that hinders profession, enchantments, revive scrolls, respec scrolls.
Basically if you keep paying, you will never die ( full hp potions in zen store and revive scrolls), get the fastest mounts (will cost over 2million astro diamond to upgrade from Mount II to Mount III to get the 110% speed). You can buy keys to unlock nightmare boxes and get currency to exchange for the best gears. You can buy the best companions with stat bonuses.
You can buy increase EXP scrolls, so what can you not buy?
A game that is truly free to play and not pay to win is Path of Exile.
In Path of Exile, there are no +EXP scrolls, you cant not buy any gears/mounts/items at all. Everything is purely cosmetic like weapon effects and stash tab.
I think bags/bank slots are not pay to win in this game, everything else is.
Definition of Pay to Win:
You can buy an advantage over someone who has not spent any money. You can buy power (stats) that will make you stronger than pay to play players. Players who are 100% playing for free will always be behind because players who pay will always be ahead in terms of gears and progression.
All wrong, trade AD for Zen and same applies. Use all your free unemployed time to grind AD like those that buy zen cannot. Problem solved.
Buy zen and you can buy the best companions, buy zen and you can open lockboxes and get the best gears. Buy zen and you can get packages that hinders profession, enchantments, revive scrolls, respec scrolls.
Basically if you keep paying, you will never die ( full hp potions in zen store and revive scrolls), get the fastest mounts (will cost over 2million astro diamond to upgrade from Mount II to Mount III to get the 110% speed). You can buy keys to unlock nightmare boxes and get currency to exchange for the best gears. You can buy the best companions with stat bonuses.
You can buy increase EXP scrolls, so what can you not buy?
A game that is truly free to play and not pay to win is Path of Exile.
In Path of Exile, there are no +EXP scrolls, you cant not buy any gears/mounts/items at all. Everything is purely cosmetic like weapon effects and stash tab.
I think bags/bank slots are not pay to win in this game, everything else is.
Definition of Pay to Win:
You can buy an advantage over someone who has not spent any money. You can buy power (stats) that will make you stronger than pay to play players. Players who are 100% playing for free will always be behind because players who pay will always be ahead in terms of gears and progression.
Sorry but no.. What you need to understand is that the raids aren't even out yet so no you cant buy the best gear. yes you can get mounts (Faster) <- that's not pay to win that's just a quicker way to get it. pay to win implies that the person who doesnt pay will never be as strong. That is completely untrue in this game
Comments
I keep seeing people make that claim. So your saying that I am imagining seeing all those wards in the Auction house with buyout prices in the 130K or so range, and preservation wards with buy outs of oh 3K or so. The ONLY way I can get wards is from the Zen store?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
But... but... <ALL-CAPS Removed per the RoC for this and trolling>
So, if I paid to win, can I have my lv. 60 P2W gear please?
WTB Big-Giant Robot Camels, tbh...
but there isnt gear in the cash shop anyways. i can buy zen and purchase ad from other players giving them my zen so how am i at an advantage when other player profit from my rl purchase of zen?
Pay to win doesnt mean "Can I get to 60 without paying?" Of course you can. Pay to win is always relative to PvP or end-game. Can I outskill someone whose blown $500 on the game if I choose to spend $0? Most likely not, their gear will be far superior to mine with their epic lockboxes, even if I play 5x more than they play.
If you are a progression raid, which guy is more valuable to you: The guy who paid $500, has better gear than you because of it, or the guy who paid $0 who despite playing 5x more than you isnt up to your level gear wise? The prior. The grind is absolutely ridiculous as duly noted and so is the conversion rate to get Astral Diamonds.
so someone will have better gear than you.
in a sub based game, the one with more time and money for the sub will grind longer thus will have better gear than you
in a f2p game, the one with more time OR money will grind longer or just buy it, thus will be better than you.
in the end there will ALWAYS be someone better than you. the only difference between p2p and f2p is that you can use money as a shortcut.
Well, since all gear is accessible through doing dungeons and grinding up tokens for gear... there's no pay to win feature. Yeah, you get bonus AD if you buy zen and sell it, that doesn't mean you're capable of getting better gear than anyone else your level that is doing the same dungeons that you are - it just means faster, if the person even *buys* the piece of gear rather than go out and get it.
Far superior due to lockboxes? I don't think so, personally. All of that can be grinded out, too, without the need for quick Rank 5's from the lockboxes.
Also, so many people are making Rank 5 and Rank 6 runes that their value on the auction house are decreasing by the day...
WTB Big-Giant Robot Camels, tbh...
So are you just ignoring the 1% success rate on the best enchantments on gear? You can pay to fix that though.
Also, the fastest mounts in the game help in PvP a lot for control ones. Gets you there faster.
Also, didnt the $200 bundle give you a lockbox with an epic weapon?
Also, T1 weapons drop. Also, wards can be acquired without buying anything.
The mount for PVP thing? Yeah, that's a downside, but it's in no way going to limit your ability to PVP in terms of facerolling target and winning/losing/kiting.
Yes, there's pay for feature options - no, none of them are game killing or impossible to accomplish by someone willing to farm it (just like any MMO that has payment options or not that I can think of off the top of my head, tbh)
WTB Big-Giant Robot Camels, tbh...
how many people have BIS in wow?
how much of an advantage is it to ride to a point alone to get ganked? (tbh mount speed is debatable, but the whole system is pretty f*cked anyway, mounts are the least of it's problems).
So that's a valid justification for asking a 160 dollars for a single BiS enchant? And yeah you can get the blue wards by other means too but considering the amount you need it is not realistic in the least.
Speed can only be an advantage. It might not always help but often it does and it certainly never hurts.
ummm yes you can...
Step 1: buy AD off the market, you can convert Zen into AD meaning, you can effecrtively turn cash into in game currency. Do to all items in this game being BoE this means every single item in game will be on the AH at some point.
Step 2: purchase enough AD to buy full epic set
Step 3: buy wards and enchantments
Step 4: equip said power
You just PAID FOR POWER! thus you paid 2 win... don't tell me thats not p2w because it is... buying power=p2w...that is the truth of the matter. People throwing money at this game will always beat those that do not.
I see people ARGUING about playing a game????
Two sides you say?
One side says you can purchase things to finish said game before installing said game....
Another side says you can PLAY the game and enjoy said game...
I knew I should have rolled a Wizard...he would have had the intelligence to make the proper "DUHHHHHH" check.
This response is for all lurkers "such as myself" to remind people why we play a game....our own definition of "fun".
You want to start at day one of a game and PVP/PVE at a high level.... the credit card swipe is over here....
You want to play this game over an extended period of time "A.K.A. hobby with little to no financial investment"...here are the tools you need to succeed.
Me, Myself and I all agree that after years of time vested and games played that the correct approach is to sit back and sip on a cold pint while you watch the forum wars of two sides that will never see eye to eye until they themselves actually cross the line...
Make your own path...as long as it is not in front of my path on the way to the bar.
justification? no. but it put things into perspective. how much time/money do you have to spend to go from lvl1 to BIS in wow? considering you start fresh and not just roll an alt in a progression-guild. and compared to wow, how much is BIS actually worth in nw gameplay-wise?
I'm not saying $160 is acceptable (in the end, what is? and $160 is a theoretical number anyway), but it's one thing to say WAAAH FARMING FOR THE BEST IS EXPENSIVE OR TAKES AGES IT SUXX while happily playing wow where FARMING FOR THE BEST TAKES AGES AND STILL COSTS MONEY BEST GAME EVARRR!! (that's not directed at you specifically, but that kind of hypocrisy is in every discussion)
on paper. with the current maps and systems, being somewhere faster is a ridiculously minimal advantage. does it suck personally that someone rides of? sure. a better coordinated team will still win (which currently will be a premade, so 110% means squat)
If you absolutely can't wait, then you pay to have nice stuff now. Otherwise you just have to put some effort into it.
And that precludes them from still being right...how?
I wonder what people will say when they figure out you posted BS.
24k ROUGH AD to AD is the DAILY limit.
You can earn as much AD as you are willing to invest time.
considering you can get everything in the game without real money by just spending a lot of time, I question that "always"
Frankly they won't even notice.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I haven't even started to care about daily roughs and I make plenty of AD.
WTB Big-Giant Robot Camels, tbh...
What defines p2w? a company that sells there gear on an item shop, thus facilitating buying or purchasing of power.
Zen=AD
Epics are BoE
Zen=AD=Epics=buying power=pw2
Sorry if you cant grasp that concept... but buying power is same thing as paying to win... its just the cold hard facts. Bypassing game play and hours and hours and hours of grinding, getting best enchantments, getting the absolute best gear available... allows one to jump into pvp or pve with best of the best available. For me and many others this is the same thing as p2w... you can argue that all you want...
But most of us are pretty sound in our judgement on this fact. The shop itself isnt pay 2 win but, the ability to convert zen to in game cash is quite frankly most <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> thing in the world. All of that said! cash shop is still stupidly over priced =P dont like what i have to say? then ignore me...but i aint going anywhere!
What is the best companion...? They are the same to me... I don't think there is a best, but who is useful or not.
You can use AD to get lockboxes for gear.
There is no exp scroll in zen market.
Companions are useful subject to the situation that you're in. There is no best in my opinion, either, as several of them are handy to have sometimes.
WTB Big-Giant Robot Camels, tbh...
All wrong, trade AD for Zen and same applies. Use all your free unemployed time to grind AD like those that buy zen cannot. Problem solved.
This game is sterotypical pay to win and people argue against that?
I would like to see anywhere on any premium shop where I can get things that people who didn't pay cannot.
WTB Big-Giant Robot Camels, tbh...