I agree with pay to be first. Contrast it, though. What is an example everyone or most would agree is pay to win?
D3 is pay to win because you can buy gear with money. You cannot buy from the rmah with gold therefore there are items you can only pay for.
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noobzorMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 19Arc User
edited May 2013
This argument descends into the definitive quickly enough so that it will quite obviously never be "resolved." It all depends how you define winning or playing an MMORPG - silly and certainly varied concepts to begin with, to echo a first page poster.
"A Wizard is never late, he arrives precisely when he means to."
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zaafenMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited May 2013
Loved this game until I needed more bags and wanted to respecc, gg now im uninstalling. CU when I dont have to pay for bags and respecc -->
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jorealMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I will say it's pay to be first. Whether or not you feel being first, or among the earliest to max everything out is good, or bad, it's blatantly obvious that much of the cash shop items are there to minimize time needed to do things ingame.
I don't see any difference in "Pay to be first" and "pay to win" in a competitive MMORPG environment.
How would you define P2W then?
There is nothing in the game that you cannot obtain as long as you ware willing to pay real money.
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bejita231Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
Yes you do, no one can keep up with the costs for zen through the astral diamond market, 500 AD = 1 zen, no one can afford that when you need 5000+ zen for every character
I find it wierd how no one mentions the only real pay-to-win aspect of this game, and that is the purchase of end game gear through the AH because everything seems to be bind on equip. To me that would cheapen the endgame experience more than any mount, companion, enchant etc..
Yes but then how would all the people that don't want to spend money to get something off the cash shop get there AD to transfer into zen?
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v1ctor2kMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
So according to the OP, every B2P/F2P MMO in existence is P2W. What a revelation!
sad how right the OP is, i didnt think it mattered since most stuff in the zen market was useless at 60... but you can simply trade stuff from the market for glory and buy gear... how lame is that? yes it takes some effort but you can essentially buy everything you will ever need at max lvl... this is def pay to win...
What is democrazy? It is a government in which the ruling power is given to whoever is most skillful at directing the herd instincts of the largest masses of their most ignorant citizens.
--Nom Anor
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jorealMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yes you do, no one can keep up with the costs for zen through the astral diamond market, 500 AD = 1 zen, no one can afford that when you need 5000+ zen for every character
It's not 500 it's 420 and falling. You can earn at least 25k per character per day. Not hard to get zen over time
Every single p2w thread in the known universe in all games descends straight to "youre definition of p2w doesnt agree with mine so your argument is invalid" - and this is why the real issue each OP brings up never gets discussed or taken seriously, so now we are at the point where games are fleecing their population for quality of life items like bags for storage.
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jorealMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Every single p2w thread in the known universe in all games descends straight to "youre definition of p2w doesnt agree with mine so your argument is invalid" - and this is why the real issue each OP brings up never gets discussed or taken seriously, so now we are at the point where games are fleecing their population for quality of life items like bags for storage.
In what way is it fleecing? If you don't like the game then don't play it. If you do then support it. It's really that simple. I don't understand why people think that giving money to a company that makes a game you like is such a bad thing.
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sasheriaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Every single p2w thread in the known universe in all games descends straight to "youre definition of p2w doesnt agree with mine so your argument is invalid" - and this is why the real issue each OP brings up never gets discussed or taken seriously, so now we are at the point where games are fleecing their population for quality of life items like bags for storage.
Keep in mind that as the game progress (i.e. gets older) more and more players can probably convert their AD into Zen and buy these items without spending a dime!
Is it expensive? I believe it is, that is why I am voting with my wallet and DON'T spend money to get Zen to buy them (but I will use AD I earn to convert to Zen) As long people continue TO BUY said item, nothing will change cause as long people are buying them (certain number) price won't drop.
Already uninstalled, will check back from time to time to see if its worth coming back. I mean the prices are RIDICULOUS. Price dump 60% and I could concider buying ****. Paying real money for repsecc is way too disgusting for me.
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midoritlMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 16Arc User
You can buy mounts and companions with coins. Just like you can buy gear from the vendors, and they are also frequently dropped.
You cannot buy decent companions for coins. All the ones you can get with coin are T1 capped at level 15. If you want a T3 companion that'll get to level 30, what's your option? Founder's pack or Zen store. Meaning cash or cash. The upgrade Tomes are conveniently "coming soon" and who knows the currency anyway. Pay to win IMO.
And sure you can theoretically get Zen by converting from AD. At 400 AD/Zen, cheapest T3 companion is gonna take 1.2 mil AD. Good luck earning that in game for most regular players not interested in playing the heroic AH game.
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jorealMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You cannot buy decent companions for coins. All the ones you can get with coin are T1 capped at level 15. If you want a T3 companion that'll get to level 30, what's your option? Founder's pack or Zen store. Meaning cash or cash. The upgrade Tomes are conveniently "coming soon" and who knows the currency anyway. Pay to win IMO.
And sure you can theoretically get Zen by converting from AD. At 400 AD/Zen, cheapest T3 companion is gonna take 1.2 mil AD. Good luck earning that in game for most regular players not interested in playing the heroic AH game.
Remember how long it took to get to level 40 in Vanilla WoW? How hard it was to get the 50g back then. It took a LONG *** time to get your first mount in the original WoW. Kiddies are just spoiled these days. Gimme epics
Yes you do, no one can keep up with the costs for zen through the astral diamond market, 500 AD = 1 zen, no one can afford that when you need 5000+ zen for every character
Funny the zen I see for sell is going for 384 right now not the 500 your stated...
Remember how long it took to get to level 40 in Vanilla WoW? How hard it was to get the 50g back then. It took a LONG *** time to get your first mount in the original WoW. Kiddies are just spoiled these days. Gimme epics
If people knew how long I farmed in Azshara to get my epic mount in Vanilla WoW their heads would explode. Lucky for me I had chinese farmers to kill for a break now and then.
From the guy I know who's 60, epic gear is VERY easy to get at endgame.
If your only gettting AD from refining rough AD your an idiot. Run missions for gear then sell gear on the AH for AD. You can have a million in just a few days doing that. Every time I've tried it is pathetically easy to make currency with an in game Auction House.
Hey, hey, hey!!!!!!
Seriously, who you think you are to call people idiot!?!? Chazzak didn't use any rude words when expressing his opinion, so watch your manners! God, this world is f...
I love how people complain about paying, in WoW you pay 14 to 16 dollars per month to play, and you still have to buy stuff with real money in order to get certain achievements. at 14 per month you are talking 168 per year. That is a lot of ZEN!
I love how people complain about paying, in WoW you pay 14 to 16 dollars per month to play, and you still have to buy stuff with real money in order to get certain achievements. at 14 per month you are talking 168 per year. That is a lot of ZEN!
DDO sub is $14,99 and you can get anything w/o spend extra bucks
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sasheriaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Hmm. Alright I'll bite. How does one get keys for the NM boxes or more bags without Zen?
I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm a new player on the Beholder server and I'm genuinely curious how stuff works.
well. There is an exchange that you can buy Zen via AD (and vice versa) players who bought Zen CAN exchange them for AD, it is a player driven market (right now it is around 400AD per 1 zen)
You can earn AD via various means (questing, crafting and AH) so you can save up your AD, convert to Zen and then buy keys
OR buy keys DIRECTLY by AD (on AH)
Until they shut the game down. You're still renting, there's just a stronger illusion of ownership.
So when your car dies were you just renting it? That logic doesn't hold up and you're reaching. There is a difference between a lack of permanence and paying a recurring fee for short term access.
Cryptic also did Star Trek Online- and it followed the same sort of Dilithium/Astral Diamonds -> Zen scheme. I'm okay with this, it undercuts RMT, and allows you to collect the Zen without paying for it- IF you want to, I admit, there are times I put money into the cash shop.
As long as Perfect World is only maintaining the servers, and not the coding, and direction of the game- we're fine.
Let's see...2 million AD for a mount upgrade. Let's do the math here.
24k Astral Diamonds a day.
2 million required for 'upgrade'.
Nobody in their right mind would buy the tier 3 upgrade for 2 million AD.
Here's why :
1) you can get 1 zen for around 400 AD at the exchange
2) 400k AD gets you 1000 zen
3) 2 million AD gets you 5000 zen
4) 4000 zen gets you the most expensive cash shop tier 3 mount in the game which is account wide (reclaimable for all your characters)
So for only 4000 zen (1.6 million AD), you can get as many tier 3 mounts as you want for all your characters in your account! Why would anyone pay for a 2 million AD upgrade for just one character!? And I think you also have to upgrade it from tier 1 to tier 2 before you can even use the tier 3 upgrade!
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felixng2013Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 10Arc User
edited May 2013
Why in gods name do people buy mount upgrades lol? Just use the diamonds to buy zen and buy a mount with zen. Its cheaper and account wide.
If a Super Bowl Ring could be bought by anyone, would it devalue the ones that were earned?
To me, no. I don't care how many rings you bought. You would not be a winner.
Comments
D3 is pay to win because you can buy gear with money. You cannot buy from the rmah with gold therefore there are items you can only pay for.
-
Don't let the door hit ya in the way out
I don't see any difference in "Pay to be first" and "pay to win" in a competitive MMORPG environment.
How would you define P2W then?
There is nothing in the game that you cannot obtain as long as you ware willing to pay real money.
Yes you do, no one can keep up with the costs for zen through the astral diamond market, 500 AD = 1 zen, no one can afford that when you need 5000+ zen for every character
Yes but then how would all the people that don't want to spend money to get something off the cash shop get there AD to transfer into zen?
--Nom Anor
It's not 500 it's 420 and falling. You can earn at least 25k per character per day. Not hard to get zen over time
In what way is it fleecing? If you don't like the game then don't play it. If you do then support it. It's really that simple. I don't understand why people think that giving money to a company that makes a game you like is such a bad thing.
Keep in mind that as the game progress (i.e. gets older) more and more players can probably convert their AD into Zen and buy these items without spending a dime!
Is it expensive? I believe it is, that is why I am voting with my wallet and DON'T spend money to get Zen to buy them (but I will use AD I earn to convert to Zen) As long people continue TO BUY said item, nothing will change cause as long people are buying them (certain number) price won't drop.
Maybe there might be a sale.
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
Already uninstalled, will check back from time to time to see if its worth coming back. I mean the prices are RIDICULOUS. Price dump 60% and I could concider buying ****. Paying real money for repsecc is way too disgusting for me.
You cannot buy decent companions for coins. All the ones you can get with coin are T1 capped at level 15. If you want a T3 companion that'll get to level 30, what's your option? Founder's pack or Zen store. Meaning cash or cash. The upgrade Tomes are conveniently "coming soon" and who knows the currency anyway. Pay to win IMO.
And sure you can theoretically get Zen by converting from AD. At 400 AD/Zen, cheapest T3 companion is gonna take 1.2 mil AD. Good luck earning that in game for most regular players not interested in playing the heroic AH game.
Remember how long it took to get to level 40 in Vanilla WoW? How hard it was to get the 50g back then. It took a LONG *** time to get your first mount in the original WoW. Kiddies are just spoiled these days. Gimme epics
Funny the zen I see for sell is going for 384 right now not the 500 your stated...
If people knew how long I farmed in Azshara to get my epic mount in Vanilla WoW their heads would explode. Lucky for me I had chinese farmers to kill for a break now and then.
From the guy I know who's 60, epic gear is VERY easy to get at endgame.
Hey, hey, hey!!!!!!
Seriously, who you think you are to call people idiot!?!? Chazzak didn't use any rude words when expressing his opinion, so watch your manners! God, this world is f...
Hmm. Alright I'll bite. How does one get keys for the NM boxes or more bags without Zen?
I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm a new player on the Beholder server and I'm genuinely curious how stuff works.
DDO sub is $14,99 and you can get anything w/o spend extra bucks
well. There is an exchange that you can buy Zen via AD (and vice versa) players who bought Zen CAN exchange them for AD, it is a player driven market (right now it is around 400AD per 1 zen)
You can earn AD via various means (questing, crafting and AH) so you can save up your AD, convert to Zen and then buy keys
OR buy keys DIRECTLY by AD (on AH)
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
tl;dr : grind a lot and trade AD for zen, if you have a job / family you're ****ed like me XD
So when your car dies were you just renting it? That logic doesn't hold up and you're reaching. There is a difference between a lack of permanence and paying a recurring fee for short term access.
As long as Perfect World is only maintaining the servers, and not the coding, and direction of the game- we're fine.
Nobody in their right mind would buy the tier 3 upgrade for 2 million AD.
Here's why :
1) you can get 1 zen for around 400 AD at the exchange
2) 400k AD gets you 1000 zen
3) 2 million AD gets you 5000 zen
4) 4000 zen gets you the most expensive cash shop tier 3 mount in the game which is account wide (reclaimable for all your characters)
So for only 4000 zen (1.6 million AD), you can get as many tier 3 mounts as you want for all your characters in your account! Why would anyone pay for a 2 million AD upgrade for just one character!? And I think you also have to upgrade it from tier 1 to tier 2 before you can even use the tier 3 upgrade!
To me, no. I don't care how many rings you bought. You would not be a winner.