To me this is the only true pay-to-win part of the game and the most off-putting. I'm surprised this topic is not discussed instead of mounts, enchants, companions which are all trivial in comparison. The same thing in Diablo 3, why work for the gear when you can just buy the very best off the AH?
so instead of BoE you rather see the system RoM uses BoP and spend 5 bucks for a bindlifter to sell
DDO sub is $14,99 and you can get anything w/o spend extra bucks
You must play a different DDO than me. You still have to pay for expansions. Basically you pay a monthly sub and still have to pay every year for content! In every PW game I've played, I've not had to pay anything for content, including expansions. I still remember all the subscribers in DDO complaining about having to pay for the last expansion we had.
And as far as P2W with people paying real life money for in-game items, they have that too in DDO with the astral shard exchange. Just different names.
Here you can buy zen with real money and use zen to buy astral diamonds (AD) and use AD to buy items in the AH.
In DDO you can buy tp with real money and use tp to buy astral shards (AS) and use AS to buy items in the AH (astral shard exchange, not the regular one). All the best items are sold on the astral shard exchange.
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rygar666Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 13Arc User
Every single p2w thread in the known universe in all games descends straight to "youre definition of p2w doesnt agree with mine so your argument is invalid" - and this is why the real issue each OP brings up never gets discussed or taken seriously, so now we are at the point where games are fleecing their population for quality of life items like bags for storage.
If that is the case maybe it is because your definition of P2W is wrong.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
You cannot buy decent companions for coins. All the ones you can get with coin are T1 capped at level 15. If you want a T3 companion that'll get to level 30, what's your option? Founder's pack or Zen store. Meaning cash or cash. The upgrade Tomes are conveniently "coming soon" and who knows the currency anyway. Pay to win IMO.
And sure you can theoretically get Zen by converting from AD. At 400 AD/Zen, cheapest T3 companion is gonna take 1.2 mil AD. Good luck earning that in game for most regular players not interested in playing the heroic AH game.
I fully expect to be using my White Level 15 Cleric when I'm level 60. She heals me for 20% of my health. Whats not to like about that.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
Hmm. Alright I'll bite. How does one get keys for the NM boxes or more bags without Zen?
I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm a new player on the Beholder server and I'm genuinely curious how stuff works.
Do daily missions etc for rough diamonds and then farm regular missions and dungeons for drops. Sell the drops on the AH for more diamonds. Spend 50,000 AD to trade for 125 zen and buy a key [It appears that 1 zen is hovering around 400 AD right now]. No where in there did you need to buy any Zen. You instead traded in game currency for it. Hell do a couple of the surveys for free zen if you want. But you don't have to spend a single bit of cash on zen if you don't want to.
4) 4000 zen gets you the most expensive cash shop tier 3 mount in the game which is account wide (reclaimable for all your characters)
I didnt realize that the cash shop mount purchases were account wide, is that only for existing characters or would newly created characters get the same mount? Are the companions account wide as well?
The reason it is not pay to win is because you cannot buy an advantage over someone who plays enough to have gotten the best drops. Yes, you can pay to save time, but when you're in the same gear as the free guy, and he or she has spent more time getting to know the character and getting better at the game instead of playing with the cash shop and auction house? Who is more likely to win?
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited May 2013
. . . . . Sell Astral Diamonds on the AD Exchange, make Zen. No RLM required. There is no pay to win. The game is new, the AD Exchange is a Player Driven Economy. Prices will fall and rise. That is the nature of a player driven economy.
. . . . . Sell Astral Diamonds on the AD Exchange, make Zen. No RLM required. There is no pay to win. The game is new, the AD Exchange is a Player Driven Economy. Prices will fall and rise. That is the nature of a player driven economy.
It takes 12 hours of farming to make 3$ worth of Zen.
I'm sorry... but no.
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
I see most people arguing that it is not P2W are Founders/supporters.
It is obviously P2W, no matter how much you want to argue semantics. Is it possible to earn everything in game through grinding? yes. Is it practical or realistic to do it? only if you are clinically insane. I know the model, I played LOTRO where it was the same choice- albeit probably a bit worse of grind than this even.
It's just a bull**** argument, in the same way that the 1% chance to fuse high level enchantments somehow redeems itself from the P2W label, since after all.... it's possible in game.
P2W what? the game. Keep up with the "Jones's"? no... the gear score required for end game dungeons.
Your doing it wrong then. How are you only making 3$ worth of zen in 12 hours?
Oh right you aren't using the Auction House as a massive force multiplier.
The auction house creates no AD, so your theory relies on other people losing worth to gain your own. In fact, every sale on the AH removes 10% of the sale value of that item in AD from circulation. AD production is capped per player per day. Given that everyone needs to use zen to progress efficiently, this becomes increasingly un-viable as people learn what they need comes from Zen.
Imagine what is going to happen when everyone needs wards of coalescence to stave off the 99% failure rate on upgrading enchants.
You're right though; at this particular point in time you can make AD from stupid people who don't realise just how much zen they will need in endgame.
I see most people arguing that it is not P2W are Founders/supporters.
It is obviously P2W, no matter how much you want to argue semantics. Is it possible to earn everything in game through grinding? yes. Is it practical or realistic to do it? only if you are clinically insane. I know the model, I played LOTRO where it was the same choice- albeit probably a bit worse of grind than this even.
It's just a bull**** argument, in the same way that the 1% chance to fuse high level enchantments somehow redeems itself from the P2W label, since after all.... it's possible in game.
P2W what? the game. Keep up with the "Jones's"? no... the gear score required for end game dungeons.
This is how I feel as well. I'd be the same way if I spent 60 or 200$ on this game. I'd want to believe it wasn't P2W with all of my heart. Deep down, it definitely is.
People saying you can farm for everything, sure, if you want to farm for 2-3 years. Because that is how long it will take you to get enough Zen for enchants and everything for end game gear.
This is a 3-month MMORPG. Meaning you will not want to play it after 3 months. Farming for 2-3 years? Puh-lease.
A vastly surprising amount of people don't understand that the Zen conversion ratio is a player fueled economy, and the prices have been RAPIDLY dropping since open beta started
Wait for the economy to stabilize before you post your doom proclimations of Pay 2 Win
Alone in the darkness, that is where you truly discover yourself. Without self, without the core of your identity, you are nothing. - Rasmenar
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
The auction house creates no AD, so your theory relies on other people losing worth to gain your own. In fact, every sale on the AH removes 10% of the sale value of that item in AD from circulation. AD production is capped per player per day. Given that everyone needs to use zen to progress efficiently, this becomes increasingly un-viable as people learn what they need comes from Zen.
Imagine what is going to happen when everyone needs wards of coalescence to stave off the 99% failure rate on upgrading enchants.
And you are showing a complete ignorance about how AD actually functions in game. I'll bet you buy in to the myth that wealth is a static pool that only can be split so much.
AD is created every single day by thousands of players in the game. It flows into the Auction House from these players. Which is how you can use the AH to in turn make money by farming for items to sell on the AH. It isn't hard and it isn't rocket science. Yet there is a class of player in every single game rolling in in game currency by using the Auction House in a smart fashion.
I know it works because I have dabbled in it in various games. I just don't have the desire for things that badly though. But if I did I would farm the Auction House.
the problem with this kind of system(pwe system) is that it has a moto : "the rich get richer, the poor just quit the game"(also true for life, but u can't just quit life). cuz i can just buy 20$ worth of zen, becoming 1 weak of work richer in just 3 minutes.
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selist1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
This game is far from pay to win honestly if you dont want to pay to be faster than get to farming that AH and turning that AD into Zen thats why its not P2W because you can do everything anyone else can.
DRAGON Selist@selist1
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
I'am amazed this thread hasn't been removed to the Lower Depths yet where it belongs.
I have in the last 2 days seen this thread sitting between 2 locked and moved thread on similar topics. I mean right between them. At a guess it is because this one is still mostly staying constructive and polite.
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bzzzdMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This is how I feel as well. I'd be the same way if I spent 60 or 200$ on this game. I'd want to believe it wasn't P2W with all of my heart. Deep down, it definitely is.
People saying you can farm for everything, sure, if you want to farm for 2-3 years. Because that is how long it will take you to get enough Zen for enchants and everything for end game gear.
This is a 3-month MMORPG. Meaning you will not want to play it after 3 months. Farming for 2-3 years? Puh-lease.
so, let's calculate, what would you get for a 60$ buy followed by 15$ a month?
also, farming for stuff isn't new. hack the item carrot on a stick in wow worked for how many years now? people will ALWAYS have to farm for sth, it's like rats and rewards. that's why you see progression and unlocks in every friggin game nowadays.
in the end people's perception is fcked up
"pay $ or grind for months to get BIS" - NO ****ING WAY P2W.
that is in what matter different from a sub based games?
I bought founders pack. It helped me for 20 levels with the cool weapon. It gave me some additional currency to work with. It gave me a cool mount, a cool title, a cool looking but entirely useless companion, and it supported a game based off a story realm that I heavily enjoy the content of. Pay to Win means that my money would have speed leveled me, given me unlimited benefits on gear and items better than what your average booboo can get.
Guess what. I quested to lv. 60, the only pieces of the Founder set I still use is the end weapon which is still only T1 and the mount. Did I win? No, there's several people rising up to my level as we speak, there's people who were already 60 before I was, and there's people with much better gear than me that did the same thing I did; leveled up, did epic dungeons, got gear, lfg.
That 2 million AD? It was spent relatively quick, but in portions it was made back through doing things that I simply will not inform you of - because the game is fun, not hard to learn, and there's a lot of things you can do within your ability as a player to make IG cash.
F2P need to stop complaining so much about P2S (paying to support, a**hats)
Well OP is right but he doesnt list the real reasons why its pay 2 win...and before someone says " but you can get that in game" the basic fact is, that pay 2 win implys the ability to use money to gain stats, or gear and dominate some aspect of the game. This is usually pvp but does apply to pve as well.
So why is this game pay 2 win? most of the best gear is bind on equip, attained from AD venders, or from boxes themselves. While you can argue that extensive prices on some things are what make it pay 2 win, it really boils down to one thing. CAN YOU BUY POWER! if you answered yes, then your game is pay 2 win. As much as it may enrage the fanboys of this and other games, JUST because the average player can grind for 2 years and get the same gear, does not make it any less of a pay 2 win game or situation.
IF YOU CAN BUY POWER!
YOUR GAME IS PAY 2 WIN!
is no getting around this little fact...as long as AD is purchasable from the zen store, then the game is inheriently p2w...
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selist1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Well OP is right but he doesnt list the real reasons why its pay 2 win...and before someone says " but you can get that in game" the basic fact is, that pay 2 win implys the ability to use money to gain stats, or gear and dominate some aspect of the game. This is usually pvp but does apply to pve as well.
So why is this game pay 2 win? most of the best gear is bind on equip, attained from AD venders, or from boxes themselves. While you can argue that extensive prices on some things are what make it pay 2 win, it really boils down to one thing. CAN YOU BUY POWER! if you answered yes, then your game is pay 2 win. As much as it may enrage the fanboys of this and other games, JUST because the average player can grind for 2 years and get the same gear, does not make it any less of a pay 2 win game or situation.
IF YOU CAN BUY POWER!
YOUR GAME IS PAY 2 WIN!
is no getting around this little fact...as long as AD is purchasable from the zen store, then the game is inheriently p2w...
Then you're <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> cause you cannot buy gear from the zen market you can use items from the zen market and sell them for loot in-game like any F2P person can.
You can also play completely free and convert the money you earn from the auction house or just AD and convert that currency into Zen which allows you to do the same thing it might not be as fast but thats the model and for me its amazing.
DRAGON Selist@selist1
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
Then you're <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> cause you cannot buy gear from the zen market you can use items from the zen market and sell them for loot in-game like any F2P person can.
You can also play completely free and convert the money you earn from the auction house or just AD and convert that currency into Zen which allows you to do the same thing it might not be as fast but thats the model and for me its amazing.
His argument [which I don't happen to agree with], is that you can buy Astral Diamonds with Zen which means that you can buy gear from the Auction House with Zen and that is pay 2 win.
I don't happen to agree with it. Only he took 2 long paragraphs and some, hmmm, loud statements to make that point.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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sufficien7Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
sorry but pay to win means an advantage over someone and you CANT get it ingame everything can be gotten in game.. if its pay to win i should beat a trickster rogue with mu GWF on my founder package but guess what i dont.
this isnt pay towin there isnt anything on the cash shop that can be considered if you can speed lvl cause of cash shop that is not p2w and if you are all complaining about go back to the game you played . and let the ones that enjoy the game as is play it which isnt p2w
Well the simple fact that you NEED to spend Zen to get high level enchantments (it's 1% of success without wards) makes the game pay to win.
The ONLY way to get high level enchantments is to pay for them with Zen. There is no other way, at all.
So, yes...pay to win.
I keep seeing people make that claim. So your saying that I am imagining seeing all those wards in the Auction house with buyout prices in the 130K or so range, and preservation wards with buy outs of oh 3K or so. The ONLY way I can get wards is from the Zen store?
Comments
People typically play games either to win, or because they are fun, or both.
So I think someone needs to explain to the OP that you cannot WIN an mmo.
We play for fun, and that makes the f2p here a-O-K with me. :cool:
Except that I'd like a bit more bag space. :rolleyes:
so instead of BoE you rather see the system RoM uses BoP and spend 5 bucks for a bindlifter to sell
You must play a different DDO than me. You still have to pay for expansions. Basically you pay a monthly sub and still have to pay every year for content! In every PW game I've played, I've not had to pay anything for content, including expansions. I still remember all the subscribers in DDO complaining about having to pay for the last expansion we had.
And as far as P2W with people paying real life money for in-game items, they have that too in DDO with the astral shard exchange. Just different names.
Here you can buy zen with real money and use zen to buy astral diamonds (AD) and use AD to buy items in the AH.
In DDO you can buy tp with real money and use tp to buy astral shards (AS) and use AS to buy items in the AH (astral shard exchange, not the regular one). All the best items are sold on the astral shard exchange.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/comments/1dry0g/neverwinters_f2p_model_what_you_need_to_know/
If that is the case maybe it is because your definition of P2W is wrong.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I fully expect to be using my White Level 15 Cleric when I'm level 60. She heals me for 20% of my health. Whats not to like about that.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Do daily missions etc for rough diamonds and then farm regular missions and dungeons for drops. Sell the drops on the AH for more diamonds. Spend 50,000 AD to trade for 125 zen and buy a key [It appears that 1 zen is hovering around 400 AD right now]. No where in there did you need to buy any Zen. You instead traded in game currency for it. Hell do a couple of the surveys for free zen if you want. But you don't have to spend a single bit of cash on zen if you don't want to.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I didnt realize that the cash shop mount purchases were account wide, is that only for existing characters or would newly created characters get the same mount? Are the companions account wide as well?
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
It takes 12 hours of farming to make 3$ worth of Zen.
I'm sorry... but no.
Your doing it wrong then. How are you only making 3$ worth of zen in 12 hours?
Oh right you aren't using the Auction House as a massive force multiplier.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
It is obviously P2W, no matter how much you want to argue semantics. Is it possible to earn everything in game through grinding? yes. Is it practical or realistic to do it? only if you are clinically insane. I know the model, I played LOTRO where it was the same choice- albeit probably a bit worse of grind than this even.
It's just a bull**** argument, in the same way that the 1% chance to fuse high level enchantments somehow redeems itself from the P2W label, since after all.... it's possible in game.
P2W what? the game. Keep up with the "Jones's"? no... the gear score required for end game dungeons.
Imagine what is going to happen when everyone needs wards of coalescence to stave off the 99% failure rate on upgrading enchants.
You're right though; at this particular point in time you can make AD from stupid people who don't realise just how much zen they will need in endgame.
This is how I feel as well. I'd be the same way if I spent 60 or 200$ on this game. I'd want to believe it wasn't P2W with all of my heart. Deep down, it definitely is.
People saying you can farm for everything, sure, if you want to farm for 2-3 years. Because that is how long it will take you to get enough Zen for enchants and everything for end game gear.
This is a 3-month MMORPG. Meaning you will not want to play it after 3 months. Farming for 2-3 years? Puh-lease.
Wait for the economy to stabilize before you post your doom proclimations of Pay 2 Win
And you are showing a complete ignorance about how AD actually functions in game. I'll bet you buy in to the myth that wealth is a static pool that only can be split so much.
AD is created every single day by thousands of players in the game. It flows into the Auction House from these players. Which is how you can use the AH to in turn make money by farming for items to sell on the AH. It isn't hard and it isn't rocket science. Yet there is a class of player in every single game rolling in in game currency by using the Auction House in a smart fashion.
I know it works because I have dabbled in it in various games. I just don't have the desire for things that badly though. But if I did I would farm the Auction House.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Selist@selist1
I have in the last 2 days seen this thread sitting between 2 locked and moved thread on similar topics. I mean right between them. At a guess it is because this one is still mostly staying constructive and polite.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
well, if they support the company their position is pretty clear, isn't it?
so, let's calculate, what would you get for a 60$ buy followed by 15$ a month?
also, farming for stuff isn't new. hack the item carrot on a stick in wow worked for how many years now? people will ALWAYS have to farm for sth, it's like rats and rewards. that's why you see progression and unlocks in every friggin game nowadays.
in the end people's perception is fcked up
"pay $ or grind for months to get BIS" - NO ****ING WAY P2W.
that is in what matter different from a sub based games?
Guess what. I quested to lv. 60, the only pieces of the Founder set I still use is the end weapon which is still only T1 and the mount. Did I win? No, there's several people rising up to my level as we speak, there's people who were already 60 before I was, and there's people with much better gear than me that did the same thing I did; leveled up, did epic dungeons, got gear, lfg.
That 2 million AD? It was spent relatively quick, but in portions it was made back through doing things that I simply will not inform you of - because the game is fun, not hard to learn, and there's a lot of things you can do within your ability as a player to make IG cash.
F2P need to stop complaining so much about P2S (paying to support, a**hats)
WTB Big-Giant Robot Camels, tbh...
So why is this game pay 2 win? most of the best gear is bind on equip, attained from AD venders, or from boxes themselves. While you can argue that extensive prices on some things are what make it pay 2 win, it really boils down to one thing. CAN YOU BUY POWER! if you answered yes, then your game is pay 2 win. As much as it may enrage the fanboys of this and other games, JUST because the average player can grind for 2 years and get the same gear, does not make it any less of a pay 2 win game or situation.
IF YOU CAN BUY POWER!
YOUR GAME IS PAY 2 WIN!
is no getting around this little fact...as long as AD is purchasable from the zen store, then the game is inheriently p2w...
Then you're <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> cause you cannot buy gear from the zen market you can use items from the zen market and sell them for loot in-game like any F2P person can.
You can also play completely free and convert the money you earn from the auction house or just AD and convert that currency into Zen which allows you to do the same thing it might not be as fast but thats the model and for me its amazing.
Selist@selist1
His argument [which I don't happen to agree with], is that you can buy Astral Diamonds with Zen which means that you can buy gear from the Auction House with Zen and that is pay 2 win.
I don't happen to agree with it. Only he took 2 long paragraphs and some, hmmm, loud statements to make that point.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
this isnt pay towin there isnt anything on the cash shop that can be considered if you can speed lvl cause of cash shop that is not p2w and if you are all complaining about go back to the game you played . and let the ones that enjoy the game as is play it which isnt p2w
Yes the hypocrisy is crystal clear. "It's not P2W since you can grind it in game, but the hell if I'm going to do that".
I keep seeing people make that claim. So your saying that I am imagining seeing all those wards in the Auction house with buyout prices in the 130K or so range, and preservation wards with buy outs of oh 3K or so. The ONLY way I can get wards is from the Zen store?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]