This game is Pay to Win, and here is why.

seariously · May 2013

Buy zen and you can buy the best companions, buy zen and you can open lockboxes and get the best gears. Buy zen and you can get packages that hinders profession, enchantments, revive scrolls, respec scrolls.

Basically if you keep paying, you will never die ( full hp potions in zen store and revive scrolls), get the fastest mounts (will cost over 2million astro diamond to upgrade from Mount II to Mount III to get the 110% speed). You can buy keys to unlock nightmare boxes and get currency to exchange for the best gears. You can buy the best companions with stat bonuses.

You can buy increase EXP scrolls, so what can you not buy?

A game that is truly free to play and not pay to win is Path of Exile.

In Path of Exile, there are no +EXP scrolls, you cant not buy any gears/mounts/items at all. Everything is purely cosmetic like weapon effects and stash tab.

I think bags/bank slots are not pay to win in this game, everything else is.

Definition of Pay to Win:

You can buy an advantage over someone who has not spent any money. You can buy power (stats) that will make you stronger than pay to play players. Players who are 100% playing for free will always be behind because players who pay will always be ahead in terms of gears and progression.

terradraconis · May 2013

You don't have to buy zen to do any of that.

druga1757 · May 2013

I will say it's pay to be first. Whether or not you feel being first, or among the earliest to max everything out is good, or bad, it's blatantly obvious that much of the cash shop items are there to minimize time needed to do things ingame.

lemongrenades · May 2013

Please tell me what gear you are getting from lockboxes that are the best? I'd like to know, because I'm still wearing things I've found from world drops and have opened plenty of lockboxes.

pocketcoppers · May 2013

Perhaps we should revisit what exactly it means to win? What does that word really mean? Isn't winning dependent on why the player plays? Does 'winning' vary with the individual playing? Their values? If I value playing the game, and winning for me is playing the game well, I cannot purchase those though I spent thousands.

seariously · May 2013

terradraconis wrote: »

You don't have to buy zen to do any of that.

Yes I understand you can trade your astral diamonds for zen. But at ~380 astro diamond to 1 zen. It will take you grinding for 1 year to catch up to someone who spend $20.

nemonus · May 2013

It's both free to play and pay to win, and it's important to note that the two aren't mutually exclusive. In the end, the only really competitive aspect to this game are small 5v5 PVP matches, so it's not that big of a deal to me.

I just wish the prices were cheaper. I doubt I'm going to spend anything if I feel like I'm being gouged. The Zen/AD ratio makes me wonder why the system is in the game at all. Probably so they can tick a box and advertise the game as being able to buy everything with virtual money, although that's only technically true.

chazzak · May 2013

terradraconis wrote: »

You don't have to buy zen to do any of that.

Let's see...2 million AD for a mount upgrade. Let's do the math here.

24k Astral Diamonds a day.
2 million required for 'upgrade'.

That's over 83 days of grinding and using AD for NOTHING ELSE.

You could always play the AH, I suppose. There's no telling how much you could earn off of that. I, personally, do not buy AD items off the AH though, because the AD I got from my founder pack is the only AD I will ever have, and I need that for enchants.

...if I ever play the game again, that is.

seariously · May 2013

Pay to win is if a player pays he gets stats bonus and an advantage. Clearly if you pay and buy zen, you will buy power, which is an unfair advantage to someone who is playing the game strictly for free.

For example, if I spend $200, and you spend $0, will I have an unfair advantage against you? Better companion, better equipments, better professions, better enchantments?

lemongrenades · May 2013

chazzak wrote: »

Let's see...2 million AD for a mount upgrade. Let's do the math here.

24k Astral Diamonds a day.
2 million required for 'upgrade'.

That's over 83 days of grinding and using AD for NOTHING ELSE.

You could always play the AH, I suppose. There's no telling how much you could earn off of that. I, personally, do not buy AD items off the AH though, because the AD I got from my founder pack is the only AD I will ever have, and I need that for enchants.

...if I ever play the game again, that is.

where are you getting 24k astral a day? If you mean ROUGH diamonds, yeah.
If you mean EARNED diamonds, there aren't any limits.
Now tell me again about how many days it'll take you.

The amount of disinformation I see spread on these forums is disheartening to say the least.

darkchristt · May 2013

OP considering that one can reach max level and start grinding the best gear in the game within a day or two--without paying a cent--I'm curious as to why your even bothering setting up this Straw Man argument?

blupa2010 · May 2013

Every MMO with gold farmers are pay to win.

lagerale · May 2013

lemongrenades wrote: »

where are you getting 24k astral a day? If you mean ROUGH diamonds, yeah.
If you mean EARNED diamonds, there aren't any limits.
Now tell me again about how many days it'll take you.

The amount of disinformation I see spread on these forums is disheartening to say the least.

I think the OP is basically saying earning the AD's it would take to get everything that someone can get if they buy Zen would take forever. Possible? Sure, but not realistic. To say you can get "anything" people can get with Zen simply by earning AD's could very well be true, but it's not realistic.

bunglermoose · May 2013

Maybe it is "pay to win". Frankly, I don't care.

terradraconis · May 2013

chazzak wrote: »

Let's see...2 million AD for a mount upgrade. Let's do the math here.

24k Astral Diamonds a day.
2 million required for 'upgrade'.

That's over 83 days of grinding and using AD for NOTHING ELSE.

You could always play the AH, I suppose. There's no telling how much you could earn off of that. I, personally, do not buy AD items off the AH though, because the AD I got from my founder pack is the only AD I will ever have, and I need that for enchants.

...if I ever play the game again, that is.

If your only gettting AD from refining rough AD your an idiot. Run missions for gear then sell gear on the AH for AD. You can have a million in just a few days doing that. Every time I've tried it is pathetically easy to make currency with an in game Auction House.

terradraconis · May 2013

pocketcoppers wrote: »

Perhaps we should revisit what exactly it means to win? What does that word really mean? Isn't winning dependent on why the player plays? Does 'winning' vary with the individual playing? Their values? If I value playing the game, and winning for me is playing the game well, I cannot purchase those though I spent thousands.

When you finally pin anyone complaining about Pay to win down they are always complaining about PVP and only PVP.

vertisone · May 2013

I think the only pay to win aspect of this game has not been discussed by the threads you guys have created... and that is how all gear is bind on equip. To me that is the biggest flaw of this game and really cheapens the end game experience. Not mounts, not companions, not bag slots...

terradraconis · May 2013

seariously wrote: »

Yes I understand you can trade your astral diamonds for zen. But at ~380 astro diamond to 1 zen. It will take you grinding for 1 year to catch up to someone who spend $20.

Hardly. It sounds like you are completely inexperienced in how to make in game money. It is pathetically easy to make several million in less than 2 weeks, possibly less than a week if your good.

seariously · May 2013

terradraconis wrote: »

Hardly. It sounds like you are completely inexperienced in how to make in game money. It is pathetically easy to make several million in less than 2 weeks, possibly less than a week if your good.

I understand you can sell the equips on AH for astral diamond, but this is because there is a current demand for it. I say in a month. those Epic loot you are selling on the AH will no longer be priced nearly as high since the demand will drop drastically. but we will see...

lemongrenades · May 2013

I have seen so much shouting about pay to win both here and in Path of Exile as well. I remember a thread there that was like 15 pages long about whether or not paying for extra stash tabs was pay to win.
People, in my opinion, will ***** about anything. It's just threads like this that really (pardon the pun) Grind my Gears. It is full of false information which the OP seems to have gotten secondhand without doing any research himself.
When I read about the so called "P2W" aspect of this game, I made sure to do my homework. In no way did I see any buying power in this game. There isn't a single thing that is obtainable with cash only.
There is no Great Visa Sword of Smiting (TM)
What ever happened to being informed before you start an argument? Or what about not believing everything your read/hear? If you're going to get bent out of shape about something, make sure you know what it is you're upset about. Otherwise that pitchfork you are wielding will look pretty silly shoved up your ***.

terradraconis · May 2013

seariously wrote: »

I understand you can sell the equips on AH for astral diamond, but this is because there is a current demand for it. I say in a month. those Epic loot you are selling on the AH will no longer be priced nearly as high since the demand will drop drastically. but we will see...

While the price will go down you can always make AD selling things on the AH and doing it right you can bring in easily 100K - 1M+ a day using the AH. Lots of people play the AH harder than others play PVP, and frankly they do very good at it. Every time I've dabbled in selling stuff regularly in the AH in any game I've done very well and found I had zero money problems with that games currency.

chai23 · May 2013

This kind of p2w pixelated arms race is a trap (insert akbar meme here) because once people have paid to get to the top of the arms race ladder, an expansion will be released which makes most of what was paid for to obtain before everyone else, obsolete. Its better to maintain 1-2 strong toons throughout the entire life of the game than it is to have alt-itis when there isnt alot of content, because once the content starts expanding, each toon becomes another temptation to pay to circumvent grind as much as possible.

sasheria · May 2013

It is pay to get ahead, but not pay to win.

"Pay to Win" - usually means that you HAVE to pay in order to get ahead (i.e. there is NO other way to get said power/access)

exp scroll is not pay to win - it is a convenience to reach max level.
potion - this is a fuzzy one. If ALL potion have same cool down, then it is not pay to win. If a player can use similar potion and do the same thing it is not pay to win.

+perma stat items - this could be pay to win. +1 stat tomes THAT CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE GAME would be consider pay to win.

End game items - If the ONLY way to get end game items (not cosmetic like nightmare mount) via store, then it is pay to win.

There IS an advantage to pay some money to get ahead BUT if you have the patience and time (lots of time) you WILL get everything you want without spending a dime. If that is the case, then it is not "pay to win" it is more like "pay to get ahead"

now there is also another term "pay wall" this usually means that you CANNOT progress beyond certain point without paying.

i.e. Can't access a new profession until you buy the expansion (paywall) like Burning Crusades in WoW
i.e. Can't go beyond certain level until you pay for it
i.e. You must pay in order to level up (I remember some of the old Asian F2P MMO does this. You can't level up via in game and must buy an item)

clurdge · May 2013

Lost all credibility with me when you stated you get the best gear from lockboxes.

vertisone · May 2013

I find it wierd how no one mentions the only real pay-to-win aspect of this game, and that is the purchase of end game gear through the AH because everything seems to be bind on equip. To me that would cheapen the endgame experience more than any mount, companion, enchant etc..

latiasracer · May 2013

seariously wrote: »

In Path of Exile, there are no +EXP scrolls, you cant not buy any gears/mounts/items at all. Everything is purely cosmetic like weapon effects and stash tab.

.

Well this is nothing more than horses**t.

You can buy mounts and companions with coins. Just like you can buy gear from the vendors, and they are also frequently dropped.

chai23 · May 2013

lemongrenades wrote: »

I have seen so much shouting about pay to win both here and in Path of Exile as well. I remember a thread there that was like 15 pages long about whether or not paying for extra stash tabs was pay to win.
People, in my opinion, will ***** about anything. It's just threads like this that really (pardon the pun) Grind my Gears. It is full of false information which the OP seems to have gotten secondhand without doing any research himself.
When I read about the so called "P2W" aspect of this game, I made sure to do my homework. In no way did I see any buying power in this game. There isn't a single thing that is obtainable with cash only.
There is no Great Visa Sword of Smiting (TM)
What ever happened to being informed before you start an argument? Or what about not believing everything your read/hear? If you're going to get bent out of shape about something, make sure you know what it is you're upset about. Otherwise that pitchfork you are wielding will look pretty silly shoved up your ***.

I commonly find that in most discussions involving the term p2w, people want to argue the definition of the term p2w rather than addressing the concern itself brought up by the OP. It is believed by some that by somehow lawyering the definition of the term p2w invalid in the context that the OP is using it, somehow invalidates the actual issue they are bringing up. It looks even sillier when that pitchfork being made reference to, doesnt even exist in the first place. Its a made up entity entirely constructed in order to misrepresent the stance of those that have concern about a specific issue, making it sound like they are against the entire game itself by expressing that concern, which is false.

The game is a few weeks old for most and a month or so for some. Of course no one is really buying raw power outright in it, yet.

lemongrenades · May 2013

...and yet, this thread will get buried and nine more screaming about the P2W fallacy will take its place.

seariously · May 2013

Perfect World International has been known to create Pay to Win games and this is no different. Please google perfect world pay to win on google and look at its history of pay to win games. It starts off slow and will pick up, quote me on this.

seariously · May 2013

I am quoting a guy who said this:

aislingi wrote: »

This game won't fail. However, it will never be a huge success either.

This game, like all of Cryptic's games, will forever be a mediocre filler game. That is, a game people play for a few months between real game releases.

why?

1. Apathy
Cryptic has never cared about players, ignoring feedback and criticism. While providing rock bottom support.
Take NWO's closed beta period. A few weekends done for publicity sake. No NDA, no real time to test anything. This alone proved they don't give a ****.

Notice how the CM's here never communicate with the player base? Community managers are here to act as a go between from players and developers, but since neither Cryptic nor PWE care about customers, that line is effectively cut. Marvel Heroes CM Rockjaw, listens to players and literally spends his time working with the devs to make the game better for the community. Its because of him mediating that the random super hero token system was removed in favor of direct purchases, due to overwhelming feedback.

You'll never see a Cryptic employee ever reconsider an action, or compromise.

2. Mediocrity
Cryptic is a mediocre developer house. They know, everyone else knows it. They are content to rush out a piece of good, but not great software, and then let it rot. Look at Champions, first month everything nerfed into the ground. STO? Klingon faction. Don't be fooled Cryptic may pretend to be attentive with NWO, but in a month they won't be doing anything.

This game will be "Cryptic MMO #3" and it will never achieve the level of success it could, because Cryptic is run on nepotism and managers that don't know how to do their jobs. It takes a really bad group of developers to make a super hero game where no one feels super heroic, but taking a quarter health bar from a convict's thrown bottle is what you get.

What you see now is what you get. Bugs will remain untouched for months or even years. CO still has a bug that renders action bars inert until you reload your UI and that's been around since launch.

3. Greed
Everyone rejoiced when Jack Emmert and Cryptic left CoH. Its because they are greedy and inept. Even Champions opened with a sub and cash shop. STO too, and STO was so awful and such an insult to Roddenberry's vision, that they had to hold "Come back to Us" enticement offers literally three months after release.

NWO continue this tradition with respec fees costing one dollar over the minimal zen package, thus forcing a ten dollar purchase to respec, 1% success rate on end game enchants, ten dollar single purchase bags, 30 dollar dresses, and forty dollar mounts.

Yes they need to make money. No they don't have to be greedy pigs about it.

So yeah this game will not fail. But it will NEVER be as good as it could have been, because Cryptic aims at the middle, and never higher. Because they just don't care.

shadeypwnz · May 2013

seariously wrote: »

Buy zen and you can buy the best companions, buy zen and you can open lockboxes and get the best gears. Buy zen and you can get packages that hinders profession, enchantments, revive scrolls, respec scrolls.

Basically if you keep paying, you will never die ( full hp potions in zen store and revive scrolls), get the fastest mounts (will cost over 2million astro diamond to upgrade from Mount II to Mount III to get the 110% speed). You can buy keys to unlock nightmare boxes and get currency to exchange for the best gears. You can buy the best companions with stat bonuses.

You can buy increase EXP scrolls, so what can you not buy?

A game that is truly free to play and not pay to win is Path of Exile.

In Path of Exile, there are no +EXP scrolls, you cant not buy any gears/mounts/items at all. Everything is purely cosmetic like weapon effects and stash tab.

I think bags/bank slots are not pay to win in this game, everything else is.

Definition of Pay to Win:

You can buy an advantage over someone who has not spent any money. You can buy power (stats) that will make you stronger than pay to play players. Players who are 100% playing for free will always be behind because players who pay will always be ahead in terms of gears and progression.

100% agree with this, after a month or so the fanboyism will wear off, and the people who didn't buy $200 packs will start to realize how much money they are forced to pay into the game just to keep up with the regular playerbase.

This game is Pay to Win, and here is why.

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