So if Tricksters are top single target dps, how are we going to beat them in pvp, especially 1v1?
By Playing your class.
By Understanding that PvP is not about DPS.
In PvP a GOOD CW is a pain in the butt. I just wish that people would not cry NERF whenever they are beat in PvP. I mean why was this thread not entitled "CW needs DPS Boost"?
I am a Control wizard level 36 and so far every time i have been partied with a Rogue they come out on top with quite a bit more DPS then me. In every dungeon i have been in the top players are rogues, even if i'm a few levels higher i still cant keep up, and they don't even seem to be that squishy, they just kill everything so quick they don't take much damage.
Wow how are you spec'd and stat'd?
I rarey get beat by rogues on my Control Wizard. (currently level 56) I've even beaten several rogues 2-4 levels above me. It might just be the level you are at. Classes are going to vary from level to level. I'd only be concerned about what you see at max level.
Besides, this game is about enjoying the content/scenery. I'm at a pouint where I hardly pay attention to the end-of-instance damage meters.. For one, if a single person dies, lags behind or goes afk the damager meters are then skewed and not correct anyways.
Also I already see a disturbing trend of RUSH RUSH RUSH. tanks not tanking. cleric not healing. thieve's not disarming traps... typical warcraft generation type stuff.
I just kited with my rogue yesterday 2 dudes around their shard in domination - the one near base, marked as 1. I've used decoy skill and run around in circles - if I havent done that we would loose that match.
So please tell me how dps is much more important than crowd control in pvp.
I'd say 90% of what matter most for topping the damage/kill counts is player skill, 2nd gear. Class a distant third.
I actually lead all the counts on 5 out of the last 6 dungeon/skirmishes I did.. Playing a guardian, one of the lowest dps classes.
Last party had 2 rogues and a wizard, both I vastly out damaged.
Been that way for the first 35 levels anyways.
looking at a screenshot for cragmire crypts:
me (guardian 26): 673k
rogue1 : 508k
clr: 453k
wizard: 382k
rogue2: 377k
Playing with a friend who plays a rogue well, I get out damaged by a large margin. Huge gaps in damage based on your skill as a player.
Wow - nice to see you playing this and DDO. I was going to reply sarcastically to your post then realised who you were so will actually take what you said on board.
I still think though that class matters much more than the <10% you mention. As a TR I have never failed to top the DPS meters, with a CW I am always in the top 2, whereas on a (currently gimped-to-hell for lower levels at least GWF) I am always in the bottom 2 for DPS, almost always last. I haven't tried a GF or DC though.
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itdude123Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You can't look at one facet or aspect of the TR's experience and say "hey! OP"....Theres single player normal, Single Player Boss fight, then their is the multi-player raid where you have to work as a group..... It is a complex and dynamic balance...fixing it for one occasion may ruin it for another ...guess what Im saying its more complicated than most people who just leap to claim its "OP" tend to realize.
Bingo. Well said. A lot of it will have to do with your build, as well as your ability selection for that scenario. Typically my fight goes like this.
Stealth... pew pew pew...
Path of the Blade (AE ability)
Dazing blow... (pew pew pew)
Shadow Strike (refills stealth bar)
Back into Stealth... pew pew pew
Lurkers Assault (daily) PEW PEW PEW
Come out of lurkers in stealth still... pew pew pew
Basically do the same thing even if the Daily is not Charged yet. But my feats and abilities are tailored for this effect. A lot of it is how you play your class as well.
Wow - nice to see you playing this and DDO. I was going to reply sarcastically to your post then realised who you were so will actually take what you said on board.
I still think though that class matters much more than the <10% you mention. As a TR I have never failed to top the DPS meters, with a CW I am always in the top 2, whereas on a (currently gimped-to-hell for lower levels at least GWF) I am always in the bottom 2 for DPS, almost always last. I haven't tried a GF or DC though.
Interesting.. I've never seen a guardian even remotely close to the top.
Also I already see a disturbing trend of RUSH RUSH RUSH. tanks not tanking. cleric not healing. thieve's not disarming traps... typical warcraft generation type stuff.
I've only done skirmishes and not dungeons yet, but I for one will refuse to disarm a trap if my group is rushing in the first place. Not going to waste my time when they're running ahead of me tripping them before I can get to them.
Are you really asking that, playing a Control Wizard? Do you have any idea how annoying it is to PvP against your class?
Yeah, I played several PvP matches yesterday as a TR. Wow. Control Wizards are pretty rough. Some of them were so good that I could only get to them briefly with Deft Strike (my teleport behind you encounter), and then they would be gone and I'd be in a choke hold.
Combined that with a Rogue helping the Wiz and... It's a quick death...
"Truth is absolute, so if you truly seek it, you can find only one answer."
Pure single DPS classes are always popular and oftentimes considered overpowered by the people who can't out DPS them. Thing is, those classes become oversaturated, their one dimensionality makes them less valuable in groups and their weaknesses are drawn into sharp relief when compared to the more well rounded classes with better utility. Pretty soon, it sucks to be the OP class because they're so spammed out no-one wants anything to do with you. Perhaps they could use some balancing, but... If they are a bit OP, expect them to be hell to get a party with in months to come.
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watchyourbackMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
If a Trickster Rogue tops the DPS chart in your group then congratulate him because he did his job. If he did not top the chart then he failed your group.
The Trickster Rogue is the only Striker class in the game i.e. it is the only PURE DPS class in the game. I expect it to top the charts. When another Striker class is released then we can start to compare DPS between those.
Trickster Rouges are not OP.
They are EASY.
There is a difference.
A Control Wizard is simply the most powerful class in game right now.
It just takes a LOT more skill and experience to get it preforming at its best.
And this is coming from a person who plays a Rouge.
I chose this class as my first character because it is the EASIEST to play when you have little experience in 4E or this game in general.
Once I am confident of my skills I will branch out into various other classes, including the Control Wizard.
'Wen considered the nature of time and understood that the universe is, instant by instant, recreated anew. Therefore, he understood, there is in truth no past, only a memory of the past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. Therefore, he said, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only appropriate state of the heart is joy. The sky you see now, you have never seen before. The perfect moment is now. Be glad of it.' Terry Pratchet The Thief Of Time
Rogue - huge DPS, but very, very fragile. Get ahold of them where they can't escape, and they're dead
Wizard - also fragile, but can be deadly both close- and long range. Watch the Area Control effects folks.
Etc.
Rogues aren't OP - they're just needed to be countered by someone in the team WHO KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
To my amazement I became ranked 2nth as an Cleric (!) in an PvP match of those between level 10-29 while it was very clear that some of my opponents and teammates were at level 20+. I died about 3 times. And that wasn't too bad, since I was caught a few times red-handed because I ran out of heals for teammates (who then died - sighs) and got surrounded by an nasty powerfull wizard, an warrior (I think), rogue and something else.
That's the problem as a 'starting' cleric - the amount of healing you can do is... tremendously low.
The only people that will say Tricksters are NOT OP'd are those that play Tricksters
The only people who say they are OP, are those who can't grasp simple concepts
The Trickster Rogue is the ONLY striker in the game currently. Striker's are the pure DPS classes in 4E D&D. Until another Striker is added, more than likely the Ranger, other classes will feel sub par in terms of damage.
It isn't a bad thing, it is a near perfect representation of the differences in power between Strikers and other classes in 4E.
Examples of other Strikers in 4E: Avenger, Barbarian, Monk, Ranger, Sorcerer and Warlock.
TR's are not OP by any means, they simply don't have anything to be compared to at the present time, due to them being the only Striker in the game right now. It really isn't that hard to understand.
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deezilxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 22Arc User
The only people who say they are OP, are those who can't grasp simple concepts
The Trickster Rogue is the ONLY striker in the game currently. Striker's are the pure DPS classes in 4E D&D. Until another Striker is added, more than likely the Ranger, other classes will feel sub par in terms of damage.
It isn't a bad thing, it is a near perfect representation of the differences in power between Strikers and other classes in 4E.
Examples of other Strikers in 4E: Avenger, Barbarian, Monk, Ranger, Sorcerer and Warlock.
TR's are not OP by any means, they simply don't have anything to be compared to at the present time, due to them being the only Striker in the game right now. It really isn't that hard to understand.
Sorry but you are wrong. Rogues can stun lock any class in the game and kill them in seconds. I mean tanks, clerics, whatever.... it doesn't matter. In PvE their damage is obscene as well. They are putting out triple the damage of control wizards and don't even get me started on how they compare to GWF who are complete **** at this point of the game. With tanks, there is no reason what so ever that a Rogue should be able to have their way in a few seconds. They really need to tone Rogues down and tune GWF's up a bit.
My problem with the trickster rogue is not that they are the strongest dps class. The balance problem comes in when they can tank up so much damage and not have to worry about being stealthy. In most games rogues can't just walk into the face of a warrior and win by dps. They have to constantly evade, stealth, and stun to win. The trickster rogue definitely needs a nerf and I hope it is done soon so I can enjoy pvp again without having to make a rogue myself.
What is beyond <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> annoying with these threads is....
THERE ARE ALWAYS TWO CONVERSATIONS GOING.
Read into the OP...is this thread about PVE or PVP? Comment on that.
Oh undoubtedly she posted that after being pwnd in PvP by a rogue.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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lordquncageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 8Arc User
edited May 2013
Meh, Rogues are just fine. The only thing is that their disables are a pain in the ***. If you however succeed to disable them they're down quite fast themselves.
Rogue's are 100% glass cannon's. They are traditional rogues. ie get in, hit hard and get the kill or else die painfully. Get past level 40 then comment on how OP they are. My rogue will top dps in dungeons and what not because that is their role. They are not control, they are not healers or tanks(and end game they can't tank, they can survive but it takes actually using the skills), they don't have multiple functions. They are there to make things die. My priest doesn't die but she won't kill much, my rogue will die but can melt things. My GF will slowly widdle things down and can actually push decent dps when I get large groups. But unless you're able to use lots of aoe's with plenty of mobs the rogue will always win in single target dps. It's a fairly well balanced game all things considered.
Sorry but you are wrong. Rogues can stun lock any class in the game and kill them in seconds. I mean tanks, clerics, whatever.... it doesn't matter. In PvE their damage is obscene as well. They are putting out triple the damage of control wizards and don't even get me started on how they compare to GWF who are complete **** at this point of the game. With tanks, there is no reason what so ever that a Rogue should be able to have their way in a few seconds. They really need to tone Rogues down and tune GWF's up a bit.
Out of curiosity...What class do you play? "In Seconds"....Well if they didn't know what they were doing..and didn't run away..maybe. Then again alot of durations in game are measured in seconds (120sec, 180sec) so yeah sure. But My main at the moment is a rogue. I'm usually at least in the top 5 in pvp (lvl 39 bracket). Today I went one-on-one with a CW and lost...twice. I ranked second in that match so it's not that I dont know how to play. They knew what they were doing. Notice that I'm not saying that CW needs to be Nerfed. Unlike most, what I'm saying is "Wow, that guy was good...I better step it up a notch!!" Instead of Crying about his CC and Teleports I'm trying to figure out how to beat them. So my point here is this...If you are not performing well in the game and others who play the same class are, maybe it's not the game or the class maybe it's you.
My problem with the trickster rogue is not that they are the strongest dps class. The balance problem comes in when they can tank up so much damage and not have to worry about being stealthy. In most games rogues can't just walk into the face of a warrior and win by dps. They have to constantly evade, stealth, and stun to win. The trickster rogue definitely needs a nerf and I hope it is done soon so I can enjoy pvp again without having to make a rogue myself.
"Enjoy PvP again"? But the game has always been like this, what do you mean? Problem here is that TR in Neverwinter are not really "Stealthy". There is a stealth combat ability, but other than that none. But in this game Rogues do Stun, Evade, and use stealth to win. Have you really seen a Trickster Rogue run into a fight and stand still doing DPS? Next time watch one and see how they fight. The most fun I have is fighting another TR. We were all over the place.
I really wish everyone would try to understand the classes before they call for nerf.
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orangerascalMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
All I'm reading is ... "I'm bad at my class, so I'll complain about another class".
The CW is hands down the best 1v1 class in PVP atm. It's also the best class for the current PVP maps because they are all 3 pt control,
If you want to top dps charts, spec aoe and get the appropriate feats. Fire your dailies when they are up because they fill ridiculously quick. PROFIT. You won't make many friends since the majority of your aoe has a knockback/pull but hey ... it's all about the dps meter right ?
I'd say get past level 20. Especially TRs pre 20 with founder weapon. Early game TRs will melt face without trying. End game anyone who knows how to play their class and understands to gtfo when the rogue starts their attacks or goes stealth will survive.
Trying to dps down a rogue that pops stealth and Lurker's will get you face rolled by said rogue. In fact anyone who just stands there and let's me jump behind them, run around to the side of them or even stands their facing my TR will wind up dead because that is a rogue's single task.
When I'm on any other class, even in the pre 20's or 20 category I never have issue's with TR's but that's because I have one and understand the mechanics behind their class and when I can dps and when to run. I'm not alone in this, and there are -plenty- of people who have never played the TR who can beat the class just fine.
I'd say get past level 20. Especially TRs pre 20 with founder weapon. Early game TRs will melt face without trying. End game anyone who knows how to play their class and understands to gtfo when the rogue starts their attacks or goes stealth will survive.
Trying to dps down a rogue that pops stealth and Lurker's will get you face rolled by said rogue. In fact anyone who just stands there and let's me jump behind them, run around to the side of them or even stands their facing my TR will wind up dead because that is a rogue's single task.
When I'm on any other class, even in the pre 20's or 20 category I never have issue's with TR's but that's because I have one and understand the mechanics behind their class and when I can dps and when to run. I'm not alone in this, and there are -plenty- of people who have never played the TR who can beat the class just fine.
If they don't out DPS a control wizard they aren't a very good rogue. Your class is more of a crowd control/DPS class. They aren't OP, they are just doing their job. This isn't WOW, Rogues are proper Rogues in this game.
Tell this to the hundreds of rogues whining to high heaven for wizard nerfs, because they *shocker* use CC on them in PvP.
Want diminishing returns on CC? Sure, then rogues need diminishing returns on all attacks, including at-wills, until you hit 1 damage per hit and need to wait for a cooldown.
Comments
I dont see how he should deal more dmg than rogue.
By Playing your class.
By Understanding that PvP is not about DPS.
In PvP a GOOD CW is a pain in the butt. I just wish that people would not cry NERF whenever they are beat in PvP. I mean why was this thread not entitled "CW needs DPS Boost"?
Wow how are you spec'd and stat'd?
I rarey get beat by rogues on my Control Wizard. (currently level 56) I've even beaten several rogues 2-4 levels above me. It might just be the level you are at. Classes are going to vary from level to level. I'd only be concerned about what you see at max level.
Besides, this game is about enjoying the content/scenery. I'm at a pouint where I hardly pay attention to the end-of-instance damage meters.. For one, if a single person dies, lags behind or goes afk the damager meters are then skewed and not correct anyways.
Also I already see a disturbing trend of RUSH RUSH RUSH. tanks not tanking. cleric not healing. thieve's not disarming traps... typical warcraft generation type stuff.
So please tell me how dps is much more important than crowd control in pvp.
Wow - nice to see you playing this and DDO. I was going to reply sarcastically to your post then realised who you were so will actually take what you said on board.
I still think though that class matters much more than the <10% you mention. As a TR I have never failed to top the DPS meters, with a CW I am always in the top 2, whereas on a (currently gimped-to-hell for lower levels at least GWF) I am always in the bottom 2 for DPS, almost always last. I haven't tried a GF or DC though.
Bingo. Well said. A lot of it will have to do with your build, as well as your ability selection for that scenario. Typically my fight goes like this.
Stealth... pew pew pew...
Path of the Blade (AE ability)
Dazing blow... (pew pew pew)
Shadow Strike (refills stealth bar)
Back into Stealth... pew pew pew
Lurkers Assault (daily) PEW PEW PEW
Come out of lurkers in stealth still... pew pew pew
Basically do the same thing even if the Daily is not Charged yet. But my feats and abilities are tailored for this effect. A lot of it is how you play your class as well.
Controller wizards are...controllers.
If CW's could keep up with rogue DPS there would be a major balance problem.
Interesting.. I've never seen a guardian even remotely close to the top.
I have no problems with how it is now.
But half the forums are full on crying about rogue dps. The other half wizard cc for pvp.
Im betting one of them will get nerfed and then it will be really stupid.
I've only done skirmishes and not dungeons yet, but I for one will refuse to disarm a trap if my group is rushing in the first place. Not going to waste my time when they're running ahead of me tripping them before I can get to them.
Yeah, I played several PvP matches yesterday as a TR. Wow. Control Wizards are pretty rough. Some of them were so good that I could only get to them briefly with Deft Strike (my teleport behind you encounter), and then they would be gone and I'd be in a choke hold.
Combined that with a Rogue helping the Wiz and... It's a quick death...
not to mention high crit chance= alot of dps...
The Trickster Rogue is the only Striker class in the game i.e. it is the only PURE DPS class in the game. I expect it to top the charts. When another Striker class is released then we can start to compare DPS between those.
They are EASY.
There is a difference.
A Control Wizard is simply the most powerful class in game right now.
It just takes a LOT more skill and experience to get it preforming at its best.
And this is coming from a person who plays a Rouge.
I chose this class as my first character because it is the EASIEST to play when you have little experience in 4E or this game in general.
Once I am confident of my skills I will branch out into various other classes, including the Control Wizard.
'Wen considered the nature of time and understood that the universe is, instant by instant, recreated anew. Therefore, he understood, there is in truth no past, only a memory of the past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. Therefore, he said, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only appropriate state of the heart is joy. The sky you see now, you have never seen before. The perfect moment is now. Be glad of it.' Terry Pratchet The Thief Of Time
Wizard - also fragile, but can be deadly both close- and long range. Watch the Area Control effects folks.
Etc.
Rogues aren't OP - they're just needed to be countered by someone in the team WHO KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
To my amazement I became ranked 2nth as an Cleric (!) in an PvP match of those between level 10-29 while it was very clear that some of my opponents and teammates were at level 20+. I died about 3 times. And that wasn't too bad, since I was caught a few times red-handed because I ran out of heals for teammates (who then died - sighs) and got surrounded by an nasty powerfull wizard, an warrior (I think), rogue and something else.
That's the problem as a 'starting' cleric - the amount of healing you can do is... tremendously low.
The only people who say they are OP, are those who can't grasp simple concepts
The Trickster Rogue is the ONLY striker in the game currently. Striker's are the pure DPS classes in 4E D&D. Until another Striker is added, more than likely the Ranger, other classes will feel sub par in terms of damage.
It isn't a bad thing, it is a near perfect representation of the differences in power between Strikers and other classes in 4E.
Examples of other Strikers in 4E: Avenger, Barbarian, Monk, Ranger, Sorcerer and Warlock.
TR's are not OP by any means, they simply don't have anything to be compared to at the present time, due to them being the only Striker in the game right now. It really isn't that hard to understand.
Sorry but you are wrong. Rogues can stun lock any class in the game and kill them in seconds. I mean tanks, clerics, whatever.... it doesn't matter. In PvE their damage is obscene as well. They are putting out triple the damage of control wizards and don't even get me started on how they compare to GWF who are complete **** at this point of the game. With tanks, there is no reason what so ever that a Rogue should be able to have their way in a few seconds. They really need to tone Rogues down and tune GWF's up a bit.
THERE ARE ALWAYS TWO CONVERSATIONS GOING.
Read into the OP...is this thread about PVE or PVP? Comment on that.
Oh undoubtedly she posted that after being pwnd in PvP by a rogue.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Out of curiosity...What class do you play? "In Seconds"....Well if they didn't know what they were doing..and didn't run away..maybe. Then again alot of durations in game are measured in seconds (120sec, 180sec) so yeah sure. But My main at the moment is a rogue. I'm usually at least in the top 5 in pvp (lvl 39 bracket). Today I went one-on-one with a CW and lost...twice. I ranked second in that match so it's not that I dont know how to play. They knew what they were doing. Notice that I'm not saying that CW needs to be Nerfed. Unlike most, what I'm saying is "Wow, that guy was good...I better step it up a notch!!" Instead of Crying about his CC and Teleports I'm trying to figure out how to beat them. So my point here is this...If you are not performing well in the game and others who play the same class are, maybe it's not the game or the class maybe it's you.
"Enjoy PvP again"? But the game has always been like this, what do you mean? Problem here is that TR in Neverwinter are not really "Stealthy". There is a stealth combat ability, but other than that none. But in this game Rogues do Stun, Evade, and use stealth to win. Have you really seen a Trickster Rogue run into a fight and stand still doing DPS? Next time watch one and see how they fight. The most fun I have is fighting another TR. We were all over the place.
I really wish everyone would try to understand the classes before they call for nerf.
The CW is hands down the best 1v1 class in PVP atm. It's also the best class for the current PVP maps because they are all 3 pt control,
If you want to top dps charts, spec aoe and get the appropriate feats. Fire your dailies when they are up because they fill ridiculously quick. PROFIT. You won't make many friends since the majority of your aoe has a knockback/pull but hey ... it's all about the dps meter right ?
Trying to dps down a rogue that pops stealth and Lurker's will get you face rolled by said rogue. In fact anyone who just stands there and let's me jump behind them, run around to the side of them or even stands their facing my TR will wind up dead because that is a rogue's single task.
When I'm on any other class, even in the pre 20's or 20 category I never have issue's with TR's but that's because I have one and understand the mechanics behind their class and when I can dps and when to run. I'm not alone in this, and there are -plenty- of people who have never played the TR who can beat the class just fine.
Well said!!
Tell this to the hundreds of rogues whining to high heaven for wizard nerfs, because they *shocker* use CC on them in PvP.
Want diminishing returns on CC? Sure, then rogues need diminishing returns on all attacks, including at-wills, until you hit 1 damage per hit and need to wait for a cooldown.