multi boxing is just another excuse to solo play instead of team up. and since the queueing system works in this game, there is no reason to multi box. easy enough to get a 5 person team in a dungeon, you can't duo them, especially if you're trying to spam heals while attacking multiple mobs. Pointless to ask IMHO.
"A True Friend Stabs You in the Front."
~Oscar Wilde~
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Look at what the Great Weapon Fighter can do, he's so OP!"
~Andy Velasquez~
multi boxing is just another excuse to solo play instead of team up. and since the queueing system works in this game, there is no reason to multi box. easy enough to get a 5 person team in a dungeon, you can't duo them, especially if you're trying to spam heals while attacking multiple mobs. Pointless to ask IMHO.
Multi-boxing is more a of a PvP thing than it is PvE.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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aendaeronMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I 3 box Star Trek Online, I highly doubt that Cryptic and/or PW will not allow multiboxing in Neverwinter and if they are not allowing multiboxing it would be nice to get an official answer. For Andre and the rest you have no idea about what multiboxing is or how challenging it can be to multibox a game. Regardless if you like it or not, no one real cares.
I am not sure which system you refer to. I personally enjoy multiboxing games and I don't expect everyone to share my sentiment. The only aspect of the game I don't really like to multibox is PVP and I do believe it unfair in PVP.
One other reason I enjoy multiboxing is it allows me to build alts that I so enjoy to play and don't always have the time to level each one and also allows for me to have the resources of multiple characters to assist my friends/guild when needed.
Hopefully Cryptic doesn't allow it, like they have in previous games. This will be the start of bots and exploiting galore that will never stop if its allowed in Neverwinter.
We have this line in the Terms of Service: (k) Cheat or utilize unauthorized exploits in connection with the Games or the Service;
What you describe is 100% cheating to me. I would be both surprised and quite upset if it wasn't.
I'll ask the staff and see what they say. However there is no argument anybody could use that would make me say that is anything other than cheating.
You two, as Community Moderator's have just blown my mind. It's not cheating if you have two accounts, two hands and have the desire to play both at the same time - never mind about the focus.
It's not against the TOS, it's not against the rules, it's certainly not cheating and it's not leaving a sour taste in my mouth if someone chooses to do it.
Next you'll be asking that everyone only plays with one hand, because using two hands is cheating.
EDIT: Perhaps as Community Moderator's you need to moderate your own use of the word cheat. Throwing unsolicited, unfounded accusations at other players without proof is, I am sure, against the rules of the forums - which you are upholding. Yes?
Computer: Black, pretty lights || Overclock: Photo of kids. || Memory: Not what it used to be. || Storage: Garage and shed. || Video: No, moved to DVD. || Windows: 100% glass.
Never understood why people put specs in a signature...
You're not even allowed two credit cards it's...umm cheating....oh no. Umm. Confused.
I have a knife and fork...sometimes I use both together. It drives my wife nuts because she can only use a fork on it's own. She calls me a cheat because I can fork AND cut simlutaneously... Umm.
Computer: Black, pretty lights || Overclock: Photo of kids. || Memory: Not what it used to be. || Storage: Garage and shed. || Video: No, moved to DVD. || Windows: 100% glass.
Never understood why people put specs in a signature...
Going by the definitions put forward here it does not appear to be against the rules.
Provided it is not used in pvp due to it possibly giving a unfair advantage, or disadvantage to your teammates if you're terrible at it.
Nor pve with other people who disagree with it.. I don't see any problem.
If you want to solo a dungeon by multiboxing it that does not negatively effect anyone.
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zovyaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
What if you have 4 arms, can you then play two accounts "fairly"? Asking for a friend.
Will they know by looking at the IP?? what if it's a couple, or siblings playing together in the same house but on two PC's? How are they supposed to know if one person is sitting at two PC's or if two people are sitting at each PC?
Many have opinons on multi-boxing (playing many accounts at the same time by the same player). This message thread is not asking for an opinion but to ask if it is allowed and can be done in this game.
People argue about multiboxing in the way a lot would argue about a Presidents's new clothes (i.e. a problem that doesn't exist). At best they haven't even agreed what multi-boxing is exactly, yet prepared to attack it/defend it ad nauseum.
Let's first provide some clarity, then maybe a decision can be made as to whether it is allowed and can be done.
1. Definition of Multi-boxing:
From Wikipedia.
"
Multiboxing is a term used mostly in MMORPGs to refer to playing as multiple separate characters simultaneously. This can either be achieved by using multiple separate machines to run the game or by running multiple separate instances of the game.
As an enthusiastic multi-boxer, I agree with this definition.
2. Multi-Boxing is NOT:
It is not botting where characers are driven by a computer program. Botting involves a character that is played by a computer program and not a person. The term bot comes from the term "robot" which means there is not a person behind the keyboard.
3. TOS, TOS, TOS
Everyone keeps on bringing up the Terms of Service (TOS - or Terms of Use - ToU) and of course 3rd party software. Well in every MMORPG rules, there is never specifics on what 3rd party software is allowed. Why? Because DirectX is 3rd party software from Microsoft and is needed in just about all Windows PC games. So the statement is never "3rd party software is not allowed", you won't ever see that in any rules for a Windows PC game because there is 3rd party software needed to run the game. Which brings us to the next point.
4. Automated Software
Automated Software is mentioned in most Terms of Service (or Terms of Use) and it is illegal. Now we are at one of the main points of contention.
This is an example of a statement from a Terms of Use (ToU) document for a Windows PC game:
"
Utilising any form of automated software in relation to your access or use of the Website, Materials or Services is prohibited.
Before going any further let's see something taken directly from the Blizzard ToU for WoW:
"
You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:
A. use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the World of Warcraft experience;
Clearly any MMORPG video gaming company and Blizzard feel much the same about Automation. It is illegal and prohibited.
Yet Blizzard EXPLICITLY allows multi-boxing and what is more they are just one of many other top game developers that do allow multi-boxing.
There are many official responses from Blizzard about multiboxing, here is just one:
"
so you multibox and have done it before, but dont know the answer to this? im already boxing so yeah it works, not sure if its allowed or not but do you really care? has it stopped you doing it before in other games?
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frost168Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Most of the other PWE games allow two accounts to be online and active at same time. Not sure how they will eventually word this, as it's still technically beta, but I'd look for an official response upon release.
I have no issue with people that choose to multiclient without using any software, I've tried it in the past and it certainly takes a lot of skill to manage two characters AND their skills.
You two, as Community Moderator's have just blown my mind. It's not cheating if you have two accounts, two hands and have the desire to play both at the same time - never mind about the focus.
It's not against the TOS, it's not against the rules, it's certainly not cheating and it's not leaving a sour taste in my mouth if someone chooses to do it.
Next you'll be asking that everyone only plays with one hand, because using two hands is cheating.
EDIT: Perhaps as Community Moderator's you need to moderate your own use of the word cheat. Throwing unsolicited, unfounded accusations at other players without proof is, I am sure, against the rules of the forums - which you are upholding. Yes?
What you've noticed is really only half of what has happened with this message thread. The original post clearly indicated that the intent was not a discussion on cheating, hacks, botting or anything against the rules. Yet the moderators bring up things like "an exploit is an exploit" and cheating, etc which is not what this message thread was about. So a lot of the others have posted similar things. What they are doing is considered "trolling" which is to derail what the original discussion was about which is multiboxing and has nothing what-so-ever to do with cheating, botting or hacks. The original post simply asked the question whether multiboxing was allowed and what were the rules with Neverwinter if a person is multiboxing. It's not asking for opinion or what someone "thinks" are the rules, but what is the official stance from the gaming company that owns the game. The other part of the question was whether it was possible based on how the game works with dodging, etc.
so you multibox and have done it before, but dont know the answer to this? im already boxing so yeah it works, not sure if its allowed or not but do you really care? has it stopped you doing it before in other games?
Here are the answers to each of your questions:
I have multiboxed before but specifically asking about Neverwinter. No, I don't know the answer from Cryptic as I've not seen any reply from them on this subject.
Yes, I really care about the answer.
If it is not allowed, I don't do it, it stops me right there, I go no further. Even if the game is completely free to play and there is a rule that states playing more than one account is not allowed, it's a waste of time to do it. If the answer is that multiple accounts can be played by one person, then are there any further rules in regards to doing so.
Multi-boxing isn't cheating, it's not against the EULA or the TOS if the following is true:
Two separate accounts are being used
Two separate KEYBOARDS are being used
No third-party software or emulators/scripts are being run
The player is at both keyboards and in-control of both characters from both accounts at all times
Please provide the section of the Terms of Service where it is stated that two separate keyboards must be used when playing two separate accounts. I have not ever seen any Terms of Service for any MMORPG that has stated that so it would be interesting if Neverwinter were the first. Also, I've not ever seen any Terms of Service for any MMORPG which states that no 3rd party software can be used with their game. And I read the Terms of Service very closely in regards to playing more than one account. Almost all of them state that no 3rd party software that does automation or other things where the player isn't controlling the character in the game is not allowed. That is very different from simply stating no 3rd party software can be used. The reason is because DirectX is 3rd party software and is needed to play most MMORPGs.
I used to multibox in asheron's call 2, everquest, and WoW. I did it for the challenge (technical - to see if I could pull off). Once you begin multiboxing it becomes a never ending battle to better your automation and scripting. It is inappropriate. In open world PvP it is a massive advantage. Many of the first WoW players to gain access to the rank 14 PvP items in summer 2005 used multiboxing to accomplish that.
Many of the tools used to accomplish multiboxing are classified as hacks by big anti-cheat names. Autohotkey for example will result in a punkbuster kick, followed by a 60 minute ban. VAC will flag your account for inspection and may result in a permanent ban. KVM over IP software not so much, but still automation.
I compare it to people who use mouse & keyboard hardware "hacks" on xbox or playstation shooters, which as early 2012 were officially classified as cheating and result in a permanent account ban.
As seen, some people define multiboxing differently.
Multiboxing itself is not the problem, but can be easily grouped into the same basket as botting. Clearly defining the TOS to allow multiple non-automated clients (one AFK, one active) seems fine to me and would be a legitimate style of gaming (to allow some interesting RP situations.)
Remember: This game will be free-to-play and we are still in beta. Things can change and robust debate will help identify the issues and investigate options to minimise the pain.
If the pain point is cheating and cheaters, then specify what you think is cheating (some have already outlined this) why you think it is detrimental to the game (the dingo stole me baby) and how you would seek to rectify the problem (off with their heads!)
Let common sense prevail, whatever it may be.
- Jasc
1. Multiboxing cannot be grouped in the same basket as botting. To say it can is just the same as saying a player playing the game can be in the same basket as botting. The reason is because if the multiboxer removes the hands from the keyboard and mouse, the character(s) stop what they are doing (unless they are auto-running). In order for multiboxed characters to do anything requires a player at the keyboard and mouse to make the characters do things.
2. To state that multiboxing is cheating is stating that players in a group is cheating. If a player in PvP meets a group of five players, is it expected that the one player beat the five players? If the five players beat the one player is it cheating? Is it unfair to the one player to die to five players? Of course it is but that's the nature of how MMO's work.
Furthermore, this discussion isn't meant to discuss automation. That is against the rules of all major MMORPGs. However, sending keystrokes to more than one client at the same time by a player isn't automation either. It appears that some people for whatever reason want to state that sending keystrokes to more than one client at the same time is automation, but that's not correct. Please review the original post to see the definition of what this message thread was supposed to be about. This message thread has been derailed (aka trolled) by some moderators of this forum either unknowingly or deliberately.
as far as im concerned multiboxing with software is botting. you arent directly controlling the character because you arent entering commands into the client, a program is doing it for you.
if we're talking about multiboxing where someone controls 2 characters by themselves, switching between windows and controlling them both.
Multi-boxing is hardly possible in this game, nuff said.
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xraxisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I am not going to bother multi boxing in this game since it wouldn't be worth the effort in my opinion. But in other games I multi box the old fashion way. alt+tab and auto-follow. The way a couple of these mods have derailed this thread makes me pretty sad, since they clearly have no clue what multi boxing is, and if I were Cryptic, or Perfect World Entertainment, I would be really embarrassed right now. These moderators representing your company are violating the terms of service in more ways than one.
I haven't seen anything in the TOS about not being able to multi box. Maybe if we can get a dev or a real staff member in here we can get a for sure answer. Sorry that your thread has been disrespected in such an awful way OP.
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xraxisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Glitch in the matrix caused a double post. Sorry!
Wizard/Wizard, or Rogue/Cleric would be easiest to dual box imo.
Multi-boxing ruins the experience for other players. Since there is no incentive for extra software sales or subscriptions, I'd be surprised if they allow it.
Comments
~Oscar Wilde~
"Look at what the Great Weapon Fighter can do, he's so OP!"
~Andy Velasquez~
Multi-boxing is more a of a PvP thing than it is PvE.
One other reason I enjoy multiboxing is it allows me to build alts that I so enjoy to play and don't always have the time to level each one and also allows for me to have the resources of multiple characters to assist my friends/guild when needed.
You two, as Community Moderator's have just blown my mind. It's not cheating if you have two accounts, two hands and have the desire to play both at the same time - never mind about the focus.
It's not against the TOS, it's not against the rules, it's certainly not cheating and it's not leaving a sour taste in my mouth if someone chooses to do it.
Next you'll be asking that everyone only plays with one hand, because using two hands is cheating.
EDIT: Perhaps as Community Moderator's you need to moderate your own use of the word cheat. Throwing unsolicited, unfounded accusations at other players without proof is, I am sure, against the rules of the forums - which you are upholding. Yes?
Never understood why people put specs in a signature...
You're not even allowed two credit cards it's...umm cheating....oh no. Umm. Confused.
I have a knife and fork...sometimes I use both together. It drives my wife nuts because she can only use a fork on it's own. She calls me a cheat because I can fork AND cut simlutaneously... Umm.
Never understood why people put specs in a signature...
Provided it is not used in pvp due to it possibly giving a unfair advantage, or disadvantage to your teammates if you're terrible at it.
Nor pve with other people who disagree with it.. I don't see any problem.
If you want to solo a dungeon by multiboxing it that does not negatively effect anyone.
so you multibox and have done it before, but dont know the answer to this? im already boxing so yeah it works, not sure if its allowed or not but do you really care? has it stopped you doing it before in other games?
cheating my .... try it and tell me it makes things easier.
You join an online MMORPG and want to play by yourself and alone controlling everyone? Go play offline rpgs then where you control the whole party.
What you've noticed is really only half of what has happened with this message thread. The original post clearly indicated that the intent was not a discussion on cheating, hacks, botting or anything against the rules. Yet the moderators bring up things like "an exploit is an exploit" and cheating, etc which is not what this message thread was about. So a lot of the others have posted similar things. What they are doing is considered "trolling" which is to derail what the original discussion was about which is multiboxing and has nothing what-so-ever to do with cheating, botting or hacks. The original post simply asked the question whether multiboxing was allowed and what were the rules with Neverwinter if a person is multiboxing. It's not asking for opinion or what someone "thinks" are the rules, but what is the official stance from the gaming company that owns the game. The other part of the question was whether it was possible based on how the game works with dodging, etc.
Here are the answers to each of your questions:
I have multiboxed before but specifically asking about Neverwinter. No, I don't know the answer from Cryptic as I've not seen any reply from them on this subject.
Yes, I really care about the answer.
If it is not allowed, I don't do it, it stops me right there, I go no further. Even if the game is completely free to play and there is a rule that states playing more than one account is not allowed, it's a waste of time to do it. If the answer is that multiple accounts can be played by one person, then are there any further rules in regards to doing so.
Please provide the section of the Terms of Service where it is stated that two separate keyboards must be used when playing two separate accounts. I have not ever seen any Terms of Service for any MMORPG that has stated that so it would be interesting if Neverwinter were the first. Also, I've not ever seen any Terms of Service for any MMORPG which states that no 3rd party software can be used with their game. And I read the Terms of Service very closely in regards to playing more than one account. Almost all of them state that no 3rd party software that does automation or other things where the player isn't controlling the character in the game is not allowed. That is very different from simply stating no 3rd party software can be used. The reason is because DirectX is 3rd party software and is needed to play most MMORPGs.
Many of the tools used to accomplish multiboxing are classified as hacks by big anti-cheat names. Autohotkey for example will result in a punkbuster kick, followed by a 60 minute ban. VAC will flag your account for inspection and may result in a permanent ban. KVM over IP software not so much, but still automation.
I compare it to people who use mouse & keyboard hardware "hacks" on xbox or playstation shooters, which as early 2012 were officially classified as cheating and result in a permanent account ban.
1. Multiboxing cannot be grouped in the same basket as botting. To say it can is just the same as saying a player playing the game can be in the same basket as botting. The reason is because if the multiboxer removes the hands from the keyboard and mouse, the character(s) stop what they are doing (unless they are auto-running). In order for multiboxed characters to do anything requires a player at the keyboard and mouse to make the characters do things.
2. To state that multiboxing is cheating is stating that players in a group is cheating. If a player in PvP meets a group of five players, is it expected that the one player beat the five players? If the five players beat the one player is it cheating? Is it unfair to the one player to die to five players? Of course it is but that's the nature of how MMO's work.
Furthermore, this discussion isn't meant to discuss automation. That is against the rules of all major MMORPGs. However, sending keystrokes to more than one client at the same time by a player isn't automation either. It appears that some people for whatever reason want to state that sending keystrokes to more than one client at the same time is automation, but that's not correct. Please review the original post to see the definition of what this message thread was supposed to be about. This message thread has been derailed (aka trolled) by some moderators of this forum either unknowingly or deliberately.
if we're talking about multiboxing where someone controls 2 characters by themselves, switching between windows and controlling them both.
I haven't seen anything in the TOS about not being able to multi box. Maybe if we can get a dev or a real staff member in here we can get a for sure answer. Sorry that your thread has been disrespected in such an awful way OP.
Wizard/Wizard, or Rogue/Cleric would be easiest to dual box imo.