barring tying all characters over to one keyboard, with one keystroke for however many characters, and then gave an example of how that could be considered botting
I don't see how. "Bots" are automated. Being at your computer actively controlling each action is the polar opposite of botting.
I don't see how. "Bots" are automated. Being at your computer actively controlling each action is the polar opposite of botting.
Because you're not controlling each action. You are controlling one character, and it is controlling the other one. So, how many characters under the direct control of one character would it take to constitute botting? 2, 5, 10, 100, more? Using the outlaid system of software to generate keystrokes on non controlled characters, the limit is computers/VMs that the user is comfortable with, but it's not botting?
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
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calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Because you're not controlling each action. You are controlling one character, and it is controlling the other one.
That makes no sense. You are splitting the signal so that YOU are controlling each character at the same time. It's as much botting as a man inside a metallic suit is a robot.
That makes no sense. You are splitting the signal so that YOU are controlling each character at the same time. It's as much botting as a man inside a metallic suit is a robot.
There sure are a lot of bad analogies being thrown around to defend not physically playing both characters. However, anyone subscribing to this logic should have no problem with one guy rolling their groups in PvP, since that one guy is actually playing all five characters, right? I dual boxed in Aion. But I didn't do it in groups, and I didn't have all my keybinds bound to one character scripted to control the other box. I played in FS Windowed mode, and switched windows when I needed to access skills on the other character. It was handy when I needed to be in a group to enter an instance that I could solo, providing the characters were close enough in level that it wouldn't adversely affect drops in the instance.
I'm not against dual boxing as a rule. I am, however, against exploiting it by not actually playing both characters, which means that I have to switch to the other character to make it use a skill, instead of scripting it to use skills based on what I'm doing with the main character. The problem is, it doesn't matter what I agree or disagree with, it's going to come down to what Cryptic/PW disagree with. I am currently watching a debate on this very issue on another game, where, after several years of allowing it, new publishers took over and decided that Sandboxie or VMs were simply botting tools. I don't support their decision, especially this far down the road, but still agree that those that chose to abuse that permission by botting secondary accounts should indeed have all their accounts banned. Will Cryptic see "I'm not botting, I just have all five characters in my party bound to a single keystroke" as botting or not? If, as another user here pointed out, they are using third party software, it's likely that they will.
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
0
calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
There sure are a lot of bad analogies being thrown around to defend not physically playing both characters.
Since you probably missed this:
That's definitely physically playing multiple characters.
However, anyone subscribing to this logic should have no problem with one guy rolling their groups in PvP, since that one guy is actually playing all five characters, right?
Why would I? I'd much rather face a multiboxer than a group of players with a clue. I'm outnumbered in both cases.
Because you're not controlling each action. You are controlling one character, and it is controlling the other one. So, how many characters under the direct control of one character would it take to constitute botting? 2, 5, 10, 100, more? Using the outlaid system of software to generate keystrokes on non controlled characters, the limit is computers/VMs that the user is comfortable with, but it's not botting?
I don't think you understand how boxing works. Your main character doesn't control anything. You press a key, the client receives a key and performs an action. There is nothing automated about it.
Perhaps the problem is that you're misusing the term "bot" and you simply mean that broadcasting keystrokes to multiple clients is cheating. I can see that argument may be valid, would it make you feel better if I achieved the same result by pressing 5 separate keys, one for each action in each client?
Easy enough to do via any decent programmable keyboard.
So since I'm replying to using a single keyboard for this effect, what's the relevance? To say "Nuh uh"? It's going to fall flat, since this is obviously not "one key to rule them all". Unless all of that is dummy stuff set up so you can try to argue with a dev/publisher to justify it?
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
I don't think you understand how boxing works. Your main character doesn't control anything. You press a key, the client receives a key and performs an action. There is nothing automated about it.
Perhaps the problem is that you're misusing the term "bot" and you simply mean that broadcasting keystrokes to multiple clients is cheating. I can see that argument may be valid, would it make you feel better if I achieved the same result by pressing 5 separate keys, one for each action in each client?
Easy enough to do via any decent programmable keyboard.
The problem is, I'm not adverse to dual boxing, and I had thought, throughout the dialog, that I had made that plain. I'm not coming down on dual boxing, I am coming down on exploiting the system. Yes, I see a single keystroke on a single keyboard controlling multiple characters as exploiting the system. This is my own issue, and frankly, isn't really worth the time it took to type it, which is getting less now that I've had more coffee, since my opinion on the matter is every bit as irrelevant as anyone else's until we know what the devs/publisher have to say. However, using the programmable keyboard could indeed be viewed as 3rd person software by the devs. What I think doesn't matter much, unless I happen to be correct in what I perceive as their possible position, and then, it's only a lucky guess.
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
However, using the programmable keyboard could indeed be viewed as 3rd person software by the devs. What I think doesn't matter much, unless I happen to be correct in what I perceive as their possible position, and then, it's only a lucky guess.
You may not be against it, but you're making arguments against it through implication.
Not really. They've posted their EULA and terms of service. There's nothing in there that states multi clienting is against the rules as long as you're at your keyboard, actively controlling your characters. Indeed, the fact that they allow you to freely open multiple clients without restriction is, in itself, an indication that they have no problem with the practice.
I sincerely doubt any developer would attempt to ban the use of programmable keyboards or mice. Even if they did, it would be completely unenforceable since there is no way to distinguish between me typing 123 and a programmable key outputting 123.
You may not be against it, but you're making arguments against it through implication.
Not really. They've posted their EULA and terms of service. There's nothing in there that states multi clienting is against the rules as long as you're at your keyboard, actively controlling your characters. Indeed, the fact that they allow you to freely open multiple clients without restriction is, in itself, an indication that they have no problem with the practice.
I sincerely doubt any developer would attempt to ban the use of programmable keyboards or mice. Even if they did, it would be completely unenforceable since there is no way to distinguish between me typing 123 and a programmable key outputting 123.
I'm actually making arguments against abusing it to cheat. As I said in the previous post though, my definition may not coincide with the devs, and what I think about it doesn't matter, since it's up to them. It's not like they'll change their minds based on what I say. Otherwise, I'd already be rich from all the P2P games I've subbed to that I felt should be paying me to play...:cool:
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
People that will bot will bot regardless of whether or not multi-clienting is allowed. One has nothing to do with the other. In fact, most people that bot are wise enough not to do so while multi-clienting, because it draws attention and makes you more likely to get banned.
I figure if it's not prohibited in the EULA/ToS, it's fair game. If people complain about it .. . well, I feel like I'm doing something wrong in PvP if someone isn't complaining.
Whatever. The fact remains that the game was designed such that each player would control one character at a time. Playing multiple characters simultaneously, regardless of how it is accomplished, is cheating, plain and simple.
Whatever. The fact remains that the game was designed such that each player would control one character at a time. Playing multiple characters simultaneously, regardless of how it is accomplished, is cheating, plain and simple.
The game is designed for people to play and have fun (and to make money).
Suggesting that your preferred way of enjoying the game should be the standard for all players is ignorant.
I disagree. If you're using one keystroke for both, one is automated, and no matter how you slice it, automated is the same thing as bot. Yes, a keystroke by a player is required, but it should be two keystrokes for two characters, not one for two. My Aion account got hacked early into the game, and when I got it back, the person that was using it to bot had set up the same macro on every quickslot, so they could push one button, no matter which one, and get the desired effect. Reading this post, they could have had 10 accounts set up the same way, and been running all of them at the same time. Is this not botting?
That said, I don't have a problem with people dual boxing, when they are actually playing both characters, instead of playing one, and having the other on "autopilot" via the same keystrokes. Some of my guildies in other games used to dual box, some better than others, but they had to either physically use two computers, or play in windowed mode to do so. The difference being, if Char 2 did any actions other than follow while running to spots, it was being controlled by the player directly, not indirectly through automation.
Just a point to order too; being a moderator does not mean that one isn't entitled to an opinion, nor does it mean they are not entitled to express it. Disagreeing with proposed opinion does not constitute trolling, even if they are disagreeing with your opinion.
I will answer your question: Is this not botting?
It is not botting if the player pushed a button for every accounts action. Simply put, if a player presses a key (button or whatever electronic device accepts input from a person) and that key goes to one or more accounts a the same time, it's not botting.
There are many people that are against multi-boxing and try to make the argument that automation = multiboxing when a key goes to more than one account. But that can never be a true statement. Automation means botting which means a computer software program decided and caused the action without a persons input. In the case of multi-boxing, a person has to be present for any action to take place. If the player stops using the keyboard and mouse, all characters will stop (unless auto-run, auto-attack or other in-game function is happening).
By the way, auto-run or auto-attack as they exist as a feature in a game, has nothing to do with botting or multi-boxing. Those are features inside the game that when activated cause the character(s) to continue to do something.
So your first paragraph states that you disagree and that you're against a player that is controlling more than one account. Then your second paragraph states that you have no problem with a player playing two accounts even if the second account receives the same keystrokes? I don't quite understand the point you're making as it seems to indicate that if it's a friend of yours, it's OK, but if it's not a friend of yours, it's not OK?
To address your last paragraph, please read the initial post as the original post indicated that opinion was not what was requested. If the original post clearly states "please don't provide your opinion" and a moderator or anyone provides an opinion in the message thread, it is not an accurate response. Read the first paragraph of the original post...
"This message thread is not asking for an opinion but to ask if it is allowed and can be done in this game."
Because you're not controlling each action. You are controlling one character, and it is controlling the other one. So, how many characters under the direct control of one character would it take to constitute botting? 2, 5, 10, 100, more? Using the outlaid system of software to generate keystrokes on non controlled characters, the limit is computers/VMs that the user is comfortable with, but it's not botting?
The player is controlling each action because the player at the keyboard used a keyboard entry or mouse to go to all accounts at the same time. That's why it's not botting. To answer your question, even if it were 1000 accounts accepting the keyboard input or mouse from a player, it's not botting.
Also to address your other point, the keys don't go to one character then get sent to all other characters. The keys and/or mouse go to all accounts at the same time by the player. That's what constitutes multi-boxing while playing all accounts simultaneously. The player is controlling each action for all accounts because the player caused the action for all accounts from the input the player did at the keyboard or mouse.
Whatever. The fact remains that the game was designed such that each player would control one character at a time. Playing multiple characters simultaneously, regardless of how it is accomplished, is cheating, plain and simple.
I fail to understand how you see multi-boxing as any kind of cheating.
It would be perfectly OK to find a healer, lets say, to join your group and heal for you. So, that being the case, why should ANYONE care who that healer is being played by? As long as someone (not a program) is pushing heal buttons, why should you care?
Comments
I don't see how. "Bots" are automated. Being at your computer actively controlling each action is the polar opposite of botting.
Because you're not controlling each action. You are controlling one character, and it is controlling the other one. So, how many characters under the direct control of one character would it take to constitute botting? 2, 5, 10, 100, more? Using the outlaid system of software to generate keystrokes on non controlled characters, the limit is computers/VMs that the user is comfortable with, but it's not botting?
That makes no sense. You are splitting the signal so that YOU are controlling each character at the same time. It's as much botting as a man inside a metallic suit is a robot.
There sure are a lot of bad analogies being thrown around to defend not physically playing both characters. However, anyone subscribing to this logic should have no problem with one guy rolling their groups in PvP, since that one guy is actually playing all five characters, right? I dual boxed in Aion. But I didn't do it in groups, and I didn't have all my keybinds bound to one character scripted to control the other box. I played in FS Windowed mode, and switched windows when I needed to access skills on the other character. It was handy when I needed to be in a group to enter an instance that I could solo, providing the characters were close enough in level that it wouldn't adversely affect drops in the instance.
I'm not against dual boxing as a rule. I am, however, against exploiting it by not actually playing both characters, which means that I have to switch to the other character to make it use a skill, instead of scripting it to use skills based on what I'm doing with the main character. The problem is, it doesn't matter what I agree or disagree with, it's going to come down to what Cryptic/PW disagree with. I am currently watching a debate on this very issue on another game, where, after several years of allowing it, new publishers took over and decided that Sandboxie or VMs were simply botting tools. I don't support their decision, especially this far down the road, but still agree that those that chose to abuse that permission by botting secondary accounts should indeed have all their accounts banned. Will Cryptic see "I'm not botting, I just have all five characters in my party bound to a single keystroke" as botting or not? If, as another user here pointed out, they are using third party software, it's likely that they will.
Since you probably missed this:
That's definitely physically playing multiple characters.
Why would I? I'd much rather face a multiboxer than a group of players with a clue. I'm outnumbered in both cases.
I don't think you understand how boxing works. Your main character doesn't control anything. You press a key, the client receives a key and performs an action. There is nothing automated about it.
Perhaps the problem is that you're misusing the term "bot" and you simply mean that broadcasting keystrokes to multiple clients is cheating. I can see that argument may be valid, would it make you feel better if I achieved the same result by pressing 5 separate keys, one for each action in each client?
Easy enough to do via any decent programmable keyboard.
The problem is, I'm not adverse to dual boxing, and I had thought, throughout the dialog, that I had made that plain. I'm not coming down on dual boxing, I am coming down on exploiting the system. Yes, I see a single keystroke on a single keyboard controlling multiple characters as exploiting the system. This is my own issue, and frankly, isn't really worth the time it took to type it, which is getting less now that I've had more coffee, since my opinion on the matter is every bit as irrelevant as anyone else's until we know what the devs/publisher have to say. However, using the programmable keyboard could indeed be viewed as 3rd person software by the devs. What I think doesn't matter much, unless I happen to be correct in what I perceive as their possible position, and then, it's only a lucky guess.
You may not be against it, but you're making arguments against it through implication.
Not really. They've posted their EULA and terms of service. There's nothing in there that states multi clienting is against the rules as long as you're at your keyboard, actively controlling your characters. Indeed, the fact that they allow you to freely open multiple clients without restriction is, in itself, an indication that they have no problem with the practice.
I sincerely doubt any developer would attempt to ban the use of programmable keyboards or mice. Even if they did, it would be completely unenforceable since there is no way to distinguish between me typing 123 and a programmable key outputting 123.
I'm actually making arguments against abusing it to cheat. As I said in the previous post though, my definition may not coincide with the devs, and what I think about it doesn't matter, since it's up to them. It's not like they'll change their minds based on what I say. Otherwise, I'd already be rich from all the P2P games I've subbed to that I felt should be paying me to play...:cool:
I figure if it's not prohibited in the EULA/ToS, it's fair game. If people complain about it .. . well, I feel like I'm doing something wrong in PvP if someone isn't complaining.
I'm not going to read the entire thread, and insults just make you look stupid.
I believe they call that irony.
The game is designed for people to play and have fun (and to make money).
Suggesting that your preferred way of enjoying the game should be the standard for all players is ignorant.
I will answer your question: Is this not botting?
It is not botting if the player pushed a button for every accounts action. Simply put, if a player presses a key (button or whatever electronic device accepts input from a person) and that key goes to one or more accounts a the same time, it's not botting.
There are many people that are against multi-boxing and try to make the argument that automation = multiboxing when a key goes to more than one account. But that can never be a true statement. Automation means botting which means a computer software program decided and caused the action without a persons input. In the case of multi-boxing, a person has to be present for any action to take place. If the player stops using the keyboard and mouse, all characters will stop (unless auto-run, auto-attack or other in-game function is happening).
By the way, auto-run or auto-attack as they exist as a feature in a game, has nothing to do with botting or multi-boxing. Those are features inside the game that when activated cause the character(s) to continue to do something.
So your first paragraph states that you disagree and that you're against a player that is controlling more than one account. Then your second paragraph states that you have no problem with a player playing two accounts even if the second account receives the same keystrokes? I don't quite understand the point you're making as it seems to indicate that if it's a friend of yours, it's OK, but if it's not a friend of yours, it's not OK?
To address your last paragraph, please read the initial post as the original post indicated that opinion was not what was requested. If the original post clearly states "please don't provide your opinion" and a moderator or anyone provides an opinion in the message thread, it is not an accurate response. Read the first paragraph of the original post...
"This message thread is not asking for an opinion but to ask if it is allowed and can be done in this game."
The player is controlling each action because the player at the keyboard used a keyboard entry or mouse to go to all accounts at the same time. That's why it's not botting. To answer your question, even if it were 1000 accounts accepting the keyboard input or mouse from a player, it's not botting.
Also to address your other point, the keys don't go to one character then get sent to all other characters. The keys and/or mouse go to all accounts at the same time by the player. That's what constitutes multi-boxing while playing all accounts simultaneously. The player is controlling each action for all accounts because the player caused the action for all accounts from the input the player did at the keyboard or mouse.
I fail to understand how you see multi-boxing as any kind of cheating.
It would be perfectly OK to find a healer, lets say, to join your group and heal for you. So, that being the case, why should ANYONE care who that healer is being played by? As long as someone (not a program) is pushing heal buttons, why should you care?