Is multi-boxing allowed and can it be done?

gamerprepared

Many have opinons on multi-boxing (playing many accounts at the same time by the same player). This message thread is not asking for an opinion but to ask if it is allowed and can be done in this game.

People argue about multiboxing in the way a lot would argue about a Presidents's new clothes (i.e. a problem that doesn't exist). At best they haven't even agreed what multi-boxing is exactly, yet prepared to attack it/defend it ad nauseum.

Let's first provide some clarity, then maybe a decision can be made as to whether it is allowed and can be done.

1. Definition of Multi-boxing:

From Wikipedia.

"
Multiboxing is a term used mostly in MMORPGs to refer to playing as multiple separate characters simultaneously. This can either be achieved by using multiple separate machines to run the game or by running multiple separate instances of the game.

As an enthusiastic multi-boxer, I agree with this definition.


2. Multi-Boxing is NOT:

It is not botting where characers are driven by a computer program. Botting involves a character that is played by a computer program and not a person. The term bot comes from the term "robot" which means there is not a person behind the keyboard.


3. TOS, TOS, TOS

Everyone keeps on bringing up the Terms of Service (TOS - or Terms of Use - ToU) and of course 3rd party software. Well in every MMORPG rules, there is never specifics on what 3rd party software is allowed. Why? Because DirectX is 3rd party software from Microsoft and is needed in just about all Windows PC games. So the statement is never "3rd party software is not allowed", you won't ever see that in any rules for a Windows PC game because there is 3rd party software needed to run the game. Which brings us to the next point.


4. Automated Software

Automated Software is mentioned in most Terms of Service (or Terms of Use) and it is illegal. Now we are at one of the main points of contention.

This is an example of a statement from a Terms of Use (ToU) document for a Windows PC game:

"
Utilising any form of automated software in relation to your access or use of the Website, Materials or Services is prohibited.


Before going any further let's see something taken directly from the Blizzard ToU for WoW:

"
You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:

A. use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the World of Warcraft experience;


Clearly any MMORPG video gaming company and Blizzard feel much the same about Automation. It is illegal and prohibited.

Yet Blizzard EXPLICITLY allows multi-boxing and what is more they are just one of many other top game developers that do allow multi-boxing.

There are many official responses from Blizzard about multiboxing, here is just one:

"

gamerprepared

"
“Multi-boxing is not a violation of the Terms of Use. On the contrary, it’s a fairly common practice and extremely fun to watch. ”

Customer Service Member


Now there must be a logical reason why so many companies that clearly do not allow automation, allow multi-boxing. The answer to that is that multi-boxing is NOT AUTOMATION. Multi-boxing relies on either software or hardware or a bit of both to REPLICATE key strokes and mouse movements.

This is not automation, this is replication and is allowed. The simple fact is that if it was not, then multi-boxing would not be possible or nearly impossible.

At the end of the day, some state that replication is automation but a lot of people from gaming companies to MMORPG industry professionals have considered these arguments and would disagree. In fact not only would they disagree, they allow multi-boxing, even though they prohibit automation.

It can't be stated any more clear than this.


5. So why do people multi-box?

There are many reasons but in the main I can say as a member of a few multi-boxing forums over several years, that people do it for the challenge. Multi-boxing is not a /faceroll, it is technically challenging and can make a game more interesting. It is in fact a style of play, much like Hardcore or Default.

In some MMORPG's multi-boxing would be extremely challenging because there is no /follow command and no in game macros. Think about it. How do you keep your characters together without a /follow command? How would you move them through a dungeon, with all those twists and turns, with constant obstacles and mobs to fight. Just 1 of many, many challenges to multi-boxing. Would you be hugely impressed by someone that could multi-box 5 or characters withint a /follow command in an MMORPG? It would be a true challenge.

Let's let Wikipedia have the last word:


"
Overall, Multiboxing is a play style choice. Many people find the additional strategy of multiboxing to be very challenging and, with those additional efforts, very rewarding. Rather than require the collaboration and cooperation of multiple human players, people who multibox instead rely upon themselves to intelligently control multiple game characters and utilize their own cunning as a replacement for human cooperation.

While multiboxing, the player does not necessarily have to spend time looking for a group to join in an adventure with, but rather can run dungeons by themself repeatedly without the risk of someone leaving in the middle of the run.

aandrethegiant

What a chocolate coated HAMSTER pop.

I'll sum it up for you with one word.

CHEAT.

Hopefully Cryptic doesn't allow it, like they have in previous games. This will be the start of bots and exploiting galore that will never stop if its allowed in Neverwinter.

ambisinisterr

I'm going to agree with Aandre.

We have this line in the Terms of Service: (k) Cheat or utilize unauthorized exploits in connection with the Games or the Service;
What you describe is 100% cheating to me. I would be both surprised and quite upset if it wasn't.

I'll ask the staff and see what they say. However there is no argument anybody could use that would make me say that is anything other than cheating.

ch80

^ im with you there. lets hope this isn't allowed.

Unknown

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l1zardo1

PW has always allowed two open clients. Of course this game does not make it very easy to control 2 people either lol. There are very few benefits as well.

jetah

Most multi-box players use macro's (/follow <main> these are official in game macro's not a 3rd party software version) and use buttons with macro's for healing, damage, targeting, etc.

Blizzards view is you aren't using a software to replicate/relay commands to a 2nd pc (could be wrong here but meh). Their eyes are that you are hitting buttons on both machines keyboard (this can be gamepads). you aren't letting a scripted software control the character in a manner that that would be considered a bot.


3rd party software isn't referring to DirectX, they are referring to a program that could hook in the WoW client program that could alter the visuals (ie wireframe view) or allow macro's (not in game version) like on G19 keyboards. (which is funny because of the controversy over one of the WoW branded mouse that shipped with a Macro program.)

gillrmn

You can use any hotkeys or 3rd party software to send hotkey commands. You can even make macros and send them to emulate key-press (like voice command to hotkey conversion softwares) - great help as accessibility features. (you can do so in STO and macro making possibility was confirmed by devs so...)

You cannot however modify client.

Cryptic is great with key customization.

ambisinisterr

gillrmn wrote: »

You can use any hotkeys or 3rd party software to send hotkey commands. You can even make macros and send them to emulate key-press (like voice command to hotkey conversion softwares) - great help as accessibility features. (you can do so in STO and macro making possibility was confirmed by devs so...)

You cannot however modify client.

Cryptic is great with key customization.

Which is why doing such would be cheating to me. It would be unlikely to be able to play the game on two separate accounts but it could easily be made to follow as a healer as Jeta said.
And that would be cheating. Cryptic makes and enforces the rules but I certainly wouldn't agree with that one.

aandrethegiant

ambisinisterr wrote: »

Which is why doing such would be cheating to me. It would be unlikely to be able to play the game on two separate accounts but it could easily be made to follow as a healer as Jeta said.

This is where the bots come in. They are guaranteed. Cryptic needs to change the wording in their terms of service to be very specific or guys like this OP will walk all over the TOS and open the floodgates to custom made bots and exploits.

gillrmn

ambisinisterr wrote: »

Which is why doing such would be cheating to me. It would be unlikely to be able to play the game on two separate accounts but it could easily be made to follow as a healer as Jeta said.
And that would be cheating. Cryptic makes and enforces the rules but I certainly wouldn't agree with that one.

I was referring to last point (automated software). In that context, automated 3rd party software is ok as long as it does not modify files.

botting I believe is a violation in itself, so usage of 3rd party software for botting would violate "no botting" part and not the 3rd party software part (if it does not modifies client files).

ambisinisterr

Which is where Aanre's point comes in.

"Automated 3rd party software is ok as long as it does not modify files"
With that definition I could develop a third party program which was designed to read the screen, follow my character at a distance, throw some encounter nukes and heal my character my HP go low without modifying any files.

So then what separates a bot from your definition of automation? Thus we get into the reason most MMO's simply say 'any automation is botting.'
How can they clearly define those lines without being too strict on true automation without outright permitting bots?

Due to the nature of the gameplay I would be highly surprised to see if bots could be designed that could fight on their own. Some other features they absolutely could do without human interaction but for combat I would be surprised. But I can easily see people argue they aren't botting, they are using an automated hotkey system to multi-box heal themselves.

I don't see a reason to multi-box a game like this to begin with. It would be beyond difficult into the realm of impossible...unless you automate...in my mind bot. So in my eyes not disallowing multi-boxing to begin the only thing which is accomplished is taking one more layer of protection against bots.

gillrmn

ambisinisterr wrote: »

...
With that definition I could develop a third party program which was designed to read the screen, follow my character at a distance, throw some encounter nukes and heal my character my HP go low without modifying any files.

So then what separates a bot from your definition of automation? Thus we get into the reason most MMO's simply say 'any automation is botting.'...

If you can, it will be very very beneficial for differently-abled players out there!

Botting can easily be detected by keeping an eye on trade and stuff. It is so easy to single out people who exploit when you have a really lot of statics that it would be laughable. Let the exploiter exploit for a month, then when the numbers build up to a level it can't be refuted, delete all their characters. You remember how GW recently found and differentiated the exploiters, right? The line can also easily be distinguished with numbers and statics.

If you can't catch a monster at the mouth of te cave, prepare an ambush in the belly and wait for them to loot the chest!

gamerprepared

ambisinisterr wrote: »

Which is where Aanre's point comes in.

"Automated 3rd party software is ok as long as it does not modify files"
With that definition I could develop a third party program which was designed to read the screen, follow my character at a distance, throw some encounter nukes and heal my character my HP go low without modifying any files.

So then what separates a bot from your definition of automation? Thus we get into the reason most MMO's simply say 'any automation is botting.'
How can they clearly define those lines without being too strict on true automation without outright permitting bots?

Due to the nature of the gameplay I would be highly surprised to see if bots could be designed that could fight on their own. Some other features they absolutely could do without human interaction but for combat I would be surprised. But I can easily see people argue they aren't botting, they are using an automated hotkey system to multi-box heal themselves.

I don't see a reason to multi-box a game like this to begin with. It would be beyond difficult into the realm of impossible...unless you automate...in my mind bot. So in my eyes not disallowing multi-boxing to begin the only thing which is accomplished is taking one more layer of protection against bots.

Let's ask it this way:

Is there a /follow command?
Is there a tab targetting system where a key can be used to target enemies?

The answer there will determine if the game can be multi-boxed easily or not.


The subject of botting is something that I didn't really want to get into in this message thread. The intent of the original post states clearly we're not talking about botting. That's an entirely different subject that has to do with automation software that drives the bot (character that is played without a person). That is not allowed in any MMORPG that I'm aware of. That's why the original post is not about that. Whether or not the automation software modifies game files or not doesn't matter, it's still not allowed.

Not allowing multi-boxing has nothing to do with protection against bots. Neither does not having a /follow command or not having macros in the game. Case-in-point: A game released last year on August 28, 2012 (I won't state the game name because I don't know if it's allowed here or not to do so) didn't have a follow command nor any form of any macros. Yet that game was filled with posts from players complaining about seeing bots in the game more than any MMORPG forum I've seen. Because the game didn't have a /follow command, there weren't multiboxers there. So the point is, by not allowing a play style such as multi-boxing in the game, this doesn't have anything to do with bot defense.

aandrethegiant

Their motto is exploit early and exploit often. Cryptic will either stand up to them starting at LAUNCH and beyond, or this game and our community will be inundated with cheaters. Their defenses are always the same. "But its not clearly stated" - no matter how clearly stated it is. Or there are "honest multi-boxers, we don't use bots" when they are simply waiting for the next bot/expoit to be written/found, or how about "it's Cryptic's responsibility to fix such bugs" or "players shouldn't be punished for taking advantage of game mechanics..." or "It doesnt hurt anybody else so why do you care if I cheat" Blahh blahh blaah.

It's playing Neverwinter in a way it wasn't intended to be played, and it overturns the game economy and empowers exploiters to join forces in guilds and on other non sanctioned forums to promote the creation and conveyance of larger and more lucrative exploits down the road. Worse it kills the enjoyment for many who play the game the way it was attended, and mars the team spirit and camaraderie D&D was founded on.

gillrmn

Yes, the point is not to limit options for players to stop exploiters, but to punish exploiters in order to cultivate a proper game ethic. Execution is what will stop exploiters, not legislation ... err... something like that.

If you try to limit features to stop exploiting, exploiters will just try to find a different way to exploit. Thus they should treat it as cause-and-effect. You exploit, you pay the price. Keep it simple.

Thus, don't take away the means - attack the ends.

zebular

I have multiple accounts in almost every MMO I play, Cryptic games are no exception. I have often Multi-Boxed in STO and many other games, using no third party software or mods - save for the ones that allow them.

I mainly like having multiple accounts and multiboxing because I am a severe alt-addict. I love making characters and building them. Then, I love being able to interact with my own characters should I need or want to. I also like being able to power-level my characters, should I choose. Or just have my other character following me around, or even for role-playing purposes.

Nay, I say!

Don't dismiss multi-boxing. Instead, target those that exploit multi-boxing - don't hurt those who actually enjoy the good aspects of multiple accounts and muli-boxing.

aandrethegiant

You need to do both Gill. You need safeguards like an easy report system built right into the game, and NO follow function. Their exploitation rules need to state specifically whats not allowed. But they need to make clear THEY HAVE THE FINAL SAY who plays and who does not. The reason is quite straightfoward. They own the servers and have a right to monitor and disconnect anyone for any reason. If they think you are cheating, they can stop you from playing, or seriously disrupt you. That needs to be clearly stated and proven in action just like you suggested above.

No honest player will mind. Actually, I think the great majority would cheer the efforts to keep the community as exploiter/farmer free as humanly possible.

aandrethegiant

I hear ya Zeb. You always have some multi-boxers that are good folk. I know you are a great guy. Multiple accounts I'm perfectly fine with. But being a power gamer doesn't equate to a necessity to multi-box.

Of course we are in total agreement about going after exploiters. And you are definitely looking at an altoholic as well!

Now, to play devil's advocate, as long as you are at your computer(s) while actively playing I don't see you as violating the TOS. The real problem comes in with "unattended macros" that follow in every MMO I've ever seen/played. As long as you are actively playing you should be able to run as many characters as you want without fear of being in violation of the rules. However, there would need to be the right code and someone in place to monitor the blatant exploitation of the game that would certainly ensue as soon as the botters figure out how. ANY SOFTWARE thats not created by Cryptic that helps you play for you has to be in violation of the TOS.

Personally, I draw the line at multi-boxing, because it leads to playing the game in ways it wasn't intended to be played. But that's just my opinion.

jasco9

As seen, some people define multiboxing differently.

Multiboxing itself is not the problem, but can be easily grouped into the same basket as botting. Clearly defining the TOS to allow multiple non-automated clients (one AFK, one active) seems fine to me and would be a legitimate style of gaming (to allow some interesting RP situations.)

Remember: This game will be free-to-play and we are still in beta. Things can change and robust debate will help identify the issues and investigate options to minimise the pain.

If the pain point is cheating and cheaters, then specify what you think is cheating (some have already outlined this) why you think it is detrimental to the game (the dingo stole me baby) and how you would seek to rectify the problem (off with their heads!)

Let common sense prevail, whatever it may be.

- Jasc

mogwai

gee where do i begin

what i don't feel comfortable commenting on: anything about how PWE has handled these situations in the past.

what i do feel comfortable commenting on: simply that i'm against anything that could augment botting or exploits. even tho dual boxing would be within the ToS i still stand against it, it is completely unnecessary here & it would only serve ppl who are looking for an advantage.
we don't need examples, it's about principal & fair play.

something i learned in my 1st mmo: "If it feels like cheating, it's probably cheating."

zebular

aandrethegiant wrote: »

I hear ya Zeb. You always have some multiboxers that are good folk who just want 2x the loot. I know you you are a great guy. Multiple accounts I'm perfectly fine with. But being a power gamer doesn't equate to a necessity to multi-box.

We are in total agreement about going after exploiters. And you are definitely looking at an altoholic as well!

But I draw the line at multi-boxing personally. Just my opinion.

Indeed, an exploit is an exploit regardless if it is done on one account or with multiple. The exploit and exploiters should be addressed, no question.

Be prepared to see me on two characters at times - never in a group though, I don't do that. I did before in UO and in Shadowbane. In SB, I'd be logged into my Druid power leveling everyone in the spawn area. I'd also be logged into another character protecting the people being power-leveled while also killing monsters and gaining experience.

There was also the fear of death from raids or assassins though, so that kept such things in check. Without the Community Defense a open world PvP provides, other means must be sought to stop such Community-touching exploits.

I rambled a bit, apologies.

*the mage chuckles*

mogwai

ppl just dont get it, they were raised on atari/nintendo/sega/playstation/etc. where it's ok to jail break, hack, cheat, exploit but only when it won't affect other people involved around you ie not online

aandrethegiant

zebular wrote: »

Be prepared to see me on two characters at times - never in a group though, I don't do that.

Don't be so sure about that. I'm going to try my darndest to get you to join us for a run or two someday.

Now as far as an appearance on the NOCS goes... may I have your agent's cell # again!!??

l1zardo1

many people are hooked on tabbing between their 2 clients while adventuring. As long as there is no automation, there is not an issue with anything. Using your own characters to powerlevel an alt account is far from dishonest either.

I don't see any honest reason to say that dual clienting would impact the economy either... unless you can think of something

heathenhammer9

Mutli-boxing IS NOT cheating. If you think it's cheating, you clearly do not understand what multi-boxing is. I'll be multi-boxing myself, have done it ever since Everquest. I WILL BE PHYSICALLY PLAYING 2 CHARACTERS. That is what multi-boxing is, it has absolutely nothing to do with botting or using third party programs. You can bot and use third party programs WITHOUT multiboxing, they are unrelated.

heathenhammer9

mogwai wrote: »

gee where do i begin

what i don't feel comfortable commenting on: anything about how PWE has handled these situations in the past.

what i do feel comfortable commenting on: simply that i'm against anything that could augment botting or exploits. even tho dual boxing would be within the ToS i still stand against it, it is completely unnecessary here & it would only serve ppl who are looking for an advantage.
we don't need examples, it's about principal & fair play.

something i learned in my 1st mmo: "If it feels like cheating, it's probably cheating."

If you think it's cheating, it's only because you do not understand what dual boxing is. Playing two characters is no different than me playing a character, my brother playing a character, and us grouping together. How exactly do you consider it cheating?

zagemogga

Why not, it doesn't really affect anyone else. You could play a whole 5 headed party on your own or use scripts aka bot

Have fun!

//edit: I don't think tey restrict the game to one session per IP address. There could be a whole famaly behind that router

kyllroy2

I was DM and had invisible presence on several people that pushed the envelope toward the edge of what is allowed but still unfair. I'll miss the pillory and the jail in NwN.:o

deads6667

to answer OP, i think Automation is cheating AND i think Replication is cheating. im not OK with either of those being done.

i AM ok with what i consider real multiboxing, where you press the buttons for characters individually without using Replication or Automation. no problem there at all, bon appetit. and if you cant do it without your replication software/macros, you fail.