it would be pretty hard to pull off without some sort of scripting the biggiest hurdle i think is the fact characters dont automatically follow each other even in a party
We have this line in the Terms of Service: (k) Cheat or utilize unauthorized exploits in connection with the Games or the Service;
What you describe is 100% cheating to me. I would be both surprised and quite upset if it wasn't.
I'll ask the staff and see what they say. However there is no argument anybody could use that would make me say that is anything other than cheating.
I agree with this. But the point is moot: multi-boxing doesn't work on Cryptic titles. The side benefit is you also know instantly if your account is compromised (happened to me: playing STO and instantly logged-out with the message that an attempt to log into STO on this account twice).
I agree with this. But the point is moot: multi-boxing doesn't work on Cryptic titles. The side benefit is you also know instantly if your account is compromised (happened to me: playing STO and instantly logged-out with the message that an attempt to log into STO on this account twice).
Multi-boxing works on CO and STO. I've done it (it's not my preferred method, I just used it to mule some stuff). It's essentially (at it's most basic form) playing two accounts from the same room. Hardware/macros make this a bit more complicated, but it certainly is possible.
I know it can be done either way - but multiboxing does make it darn easy to circumvent the inventory issue and timed prayer system. Each alt would be like a Bag of Holding.. A Bag of Holding that can hold other bags of holding and randomly throw AD at you every hour.
I usually don't make alts, but I think I'm starting to see the benefit.
voqarMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
Multi-boxing is lame, pure and simple. If you want to play with yourself, play a single player game.
The beauty and glory of MMORPGs is playing with other people. If you're too lame for that, please just don't play.
There is no justification for being selfish, greedy, exploitive, or outright cheating.
Games with active combat are going to be harder to multibox anyways. I haven't played Neverwinter yet but in other similar systems there are no portraits to click on for healing/buffing and no tab target type of mechanisms. So there's nothing to cheese or script. In this type of system you have to be fully on the ball to play. If you're not aiming you're not hitting or healing or whatever.
0
mogwaiMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
Yea, i clearly understand all the terms lol, like i said unfair advantage.
But anyways i don't really care as this is a short-term game. I view it as a niche release to stay current in the market until whatever else they are working on approaches.
Judging by the response PWE once again underestimated & sadly many will be disappointed.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2013
Multi-boxing on some other MMO's I could absolutely handle. Multiboxing on Neverwinter...I don't see.
As has been repeated throughout this thread Neverwinter is a more demanding MMO than virtually anything else on the market. You could do it if you had 4 hands but as far as I know most people have two. We simply don't have enough fingers to multi-box without obscene amounts of aid from automation which I feel would outright break botting rules.
I don't have an issue with multibox RP sessions, I don't have an issue with people using one box to type on and one box to fight on. I don't have a problem with one box using the Foundry and one box being in the actual game.
But I do absolutely have a problem with pack mules, static effects and automated PC companions.
Those are exploits to me, pure and simple, and well passes the line of botting. And I think that's what most of this debate comes down to.
Those who are against the allowance of multi-boxing are not trying to be sticklers. The argument for multi-boxing being a perfectly ok thing to do is that you aren't botting. In other MMO's you would be possible but Neverwinter is not like other MMO's and for people to effectively multi-box in combat would cross our definition of botting and exploiting.
So even if multi-boxing is allowed I think most of us stating opposition to its legality would be just as happy with a clear ruling that multi-boxing can only be used if the two accounts do not use ANY combat automation, only one account partakes in combat at a time, and if these two accounts are in a single party this party may not dungeon/delve/quest.
There are a few valid reasons people may want to multi-box but gaining some sort of advantage, including a free pack mule, is a direct exploit and should not be tolerated.
I have multiple accounts in almost every MMO I play, Cryptic games are no exception. I have often Multi-Boxed in STO and many other games, using no third party software or mods - save for the ones that allow them.
I mainly like having multiple accounts and multiboxing because I am a severe alt-addict. I love making characters and building them. Then, I love being able to interact with my own characters should I need or want to. I also like being able to power-level my characters, should I choose. Or just have my other character following me around, or even for role-playing purposes.
Nay, I say!
Don't dismiss multi-boxing. Instead, target those that exploit multi-boxing - don't hurt those who actually enjoy the good aspects of multiple accounts and muli-boxing.
^^^ This!
I multibox in STO once in a while. I have never used any 3rd party exploits...or anything against the rules. I have a lot of alts, and sometimes it's nice to be able to have them interact.
L'sya Raiya
0
hepljusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 6Arc User
edited March 2013
Why do you guys keep calling it automation? Multiboxing is nothing more than controlling multiple clients with the same keyboard as opposed to using multiple keyboards. All single independent commands are sent to each client the same as if you were playing one client.
0
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Don't be so sure about that. I'm going to try my darndest to get you to join us for a run or two someday.
Now as far as an appearance on the NOCS goes... may I have your agent's cell # again!!??
Ah! I will most surely play in a group with ya and others, indeed. What I meant was, that I won't be that person that is found to be controlling two characters in a group, I don't play like that. When I am in a group, I need to focus on one personality! Just my own is plenty at times!
*the mage chuckles*
Yeah.. I don't do interviews, my apprentice has a special fireball ready for solicitors at my door. It took Stratics, what 8 years?, to get me in a video and then it was a 10 year anniversary contribution.
Why do you guys keep calling it automation? Multiboxing is nothing more than controlling multiple clients with the same keyboard as opposed to using multiple keyboards. All single independent commands are sent to each client the same as if you were playing one client.
We're not.
We're saying multi-boxing particularly in a damanding game like Neverwinter is a gateway for automated features to be abused.
You won't be able to fight at the same times. It will be impossible. So unless you are standing around RPing and a few other minor tasks you will either be a detriment or you will be automating the heck out of the other computer.
Have you tried the game? It would sort of be like playing two FPS Games at once. Not happening without some major automation so the "I am doing all the actions" argument falls short.
Ah! I will most surely play in a group with ya and others, indeed. What I meant was, that I won't be that person that is found to be controlling two characters in a group, I don't play like that. When I am in a group, I need to focus on one personality! Just my own is plenty at times!
*the mage chuckles*
Yeah.. I don't do interviews, my apprentice has a special fireball ready for solicitors at my door. It took Stratics, what 8 years?, to get me in a video and then it was a 10 year anniversary contribution.
That's excellent news!
Aheem.. can you believe you got two mentions on Episode #3 of the NOCS?? I'd swear there's a pattern forming here...
Well I multi box sometimes in DDO when gear hunting. The thing is though I use two pc and one is character that is just sitting afk at the beginning of the quest while I solo it on the other character.
I don't do this often but on occasion when I want to farm a chest for gear that I am having trouble getting. I don't see how this would work very well in this game though.
That said I don't see a problem doing this.
I do however see it as kind of dubious running 2 clients on the same pc as most of the times clients are not meant to be run this way or controlling 2 character from the same keyboard. I also don't really want people doing this in any lfm I put up.
Like others have said though I do not want this game turning into a bot fest like some other games.
dlcarterMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
If you are using automated software yes that is cheating!
Now in DDO I do double box at times.
I may try it here. No automated software.
My desktop and laptop are right next to each other.
I never would use any software to accomplish it as that would be cheating.
If like me you, and can run 2 computers that is not cheating.
Now in DDO what I normally do is have my main on my pc and a rogue on the laptop.
You do end up taking a lot longer in dungeons.
I have my main go up and fight then when it is clear bring up the rogue,
(well artificer which in DDO is a rogue with casting abilities and a pet construct "metal" dog).
It is a pain. Normally it takes me about 1/3 more time to run a dungeon.
So if you are really double boxing like I do it is not cheating, if you are using macro's on the same system, to me you are cheating.
That is my view anyway.
I am not lost, I am exploring. All who wander are not lost.
Not all who seem to be lost want to be found.
I have multiple accounts in almost every MMO I play, Cryptic games are no exception. I have often Multi-Boxed in STO and many other games, using no third party software or mods - save for the ones that allow them.
I mainly like having multiple accounts and multiboxing because I am a severe alt-addict. I love making characters and building them. Then, I love being able to interact with my own characters should I need or want to. I also like being able to power-level my characters, should I choose. Or just have my other character following me around, or even for role-playing purposes.
Nay, I say!
Don't dismiss multi-boxing. Instead, target those that exploit multi-boxing - don't hurt those who actually enjoy the good aspects of multiple accounts and muli-boxing.
I have used two accounts (at least) in these games for years but did not know it was common or there was a term for it until i read this thread. I started it originally for more inventory room and the ability to trade with between my toons and so i could have 1 of every type of crafter in EQ2. I have two lifetime accounts for STO and Champions but im only using 1 in Neverwinter as want to keep things simple in this game and just have fun. I find managing so many characters in other game starts very quickly to feel like work. It is challenging to play two toons at once but not practical for major encounters. I dont anything about these bots and exploits im reading about here, for me it is just madly hitting buttons on two keyboards on two computers side by side on my desk. The follow command in space in STO makes things easier as you dont get stuck behind objects or fall into cracks, etc...
Still, the best way to play for fun is to be in a group of friends just using one account. There are times you can be logged into a second account and look at a bank or craft something for a guild mate or facilitate deliveries. Anyway, the games are for fun so each to their own i think and most of these cryptic games have multiple in game paths to enjoyment.
We're not.
We're saying multi-boxing particularly in a damanding game like Neverwinter is a gateway for automated features to be abused.
You won't be able to fight at the same times. It will be impossible. So unless you are standing around RPing and a few other minor tasks you will either be a detriment or you will be automating the heck out of the other computer.
Have you tried the game? It would sort of be like playing two FPS Games at once. Not happening without some major automation so the "I am doing all the actions" argument falls short.
This is quite interesting to read. I dont know about this automation i have read about here but it seems to me that it is the exact opposite of your argument. People that are going to cheat will simply use multi-boxing as a tool for what they intend to do, not descend into a spiral of exploits and cheats after they have tried multi-boxing. Also im curious about this, do they need to use more than one computer when they are running the bots and cheat software? Can they just use one computer program to log into different accounts? This is all new and interesting to me.
I was wondering if anyone tried Dual Boxing during any of the betas? I did this with DDO and it made things really easy to transfer whole backpacks, leveling up alts etc.
Thanks.
0
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited March 2013
There's a thread on this, short story.. yes you can. When I locate the thread, I'll merge this one into with a move link to help ya out.
to answer OP, i think Automation is cheating AND i think Replication is cheating. im not OK with either of those being done.
i AM ok with what i consider real multiboxing, where you press the buttons for characters individually without using Replication or Automation. no problem there at all, bon appetit. and if you cant do it without your replication software/macros, you fail.
If I read this right, this is also where I stand. As long as you hit keys individually I have no problem with you doing anything with any number of characters, what I have a problem with and view as abusive is controlling multiple characters at the same time with the same keys. If you can have a group moving on the same location, and all attack with the same key press, it gets extreamly abusive.
There is a fine line between working in a group in a group setting, and having a group with pinpoint action from one source all at once. Its a Automatic "mind" of sorts.
How would you even Multi-Box this game without using 3rd party software to play the second character for you? If your taking the time to switch back and forth and position/attack/heal with each character, you would be losing out on lots of time you could be playing just one character that much better.
I don't have a problem with Multi-Boxing, I'm just curious how you plan on accomplishing it.
Multi-boxing isn't cheating, it's not against the EULA or the TOS if the following is true:
Two separate accounts are being used
Two separate KEYBOARDS are being used
No third-party software or emulators/scripts are being run
The player is at both keyboards and in-control of both characters from both accounts at all times
I used to do this with EQ2, CoH, etc. It's nothing to put one character on following and auto-assist and just remember whcih buttons do what when you attack.. hit number 2 on one keyboard and number 2 on the other.
Simple.
However.. it takes a bit of skill to get out of a jam when you're trying to manipulate two mouses and keyboards in order to escape dying. Which I always found to be the downfall of multiboxing on ACTION games. That and the game doesn't use your local server to connect you.. so using /follow often showcases just how far behind (latency/ping wise) the game is vs. your actions. So getting around is often a challenge if it's even possible on the best connections.
Bottom line: I see no gain to this method of play beyond having a healer follow you around.
However: You'll need to make sure you're following the TOS and EULA to the letter or you'll end up banned on both accounts
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How would you even Multi-Box this game without using 3rd party software to play the second character for you? If your taking the time to switch back and forth and position/attack/heal with each character, you would be losing out on lots of time you could be playing just one character that much better.
I don't have a problem with Multi-Boxing, I'm just curious how you plan on accomplishing it.
You just have to switch to windowed mode instead of fullscreen. Then you can have them up and visible at the same time. I did that in STO as a test. I had five windows up at one time. I got all my alts together and formed a fleet, so I could play with my own space station without bothering others. Although, once I got past about 4 windows, things got REAL SLOW. My alt accounts pretty much collect dust now. I just wanted my own space station.
There are some MMOs which will not allow multiple game sessions though. Fortunately, STO permits it. I haven't tried CO or Neverwinter yet though. I'm assuming they will permit it as well.
I used to multi box in EQ and dual box in WoW. It was fairly simple using macros and two computers. I never used any programs, just hit separate keyboards, but thats mostly due to my old comps not being able to handle 2+games going at the same time. I never looked to closely during the last Beta weekend, but this game seems like it would be difficult to multibox. I don't know if you can autofollow, let alone use macros.
With basic knowledge of RF, a steady hand and a soldering iron I can have 5 rigs running off one keyboard & mouse. All you need is 2 accounts with your ISP, LAN party mobos and lag is pretty non-existant. If you have the money & the know how this is all relatively simple. Now, in my own defense, I haven't multi-boxed, or "hot boxed" as we used to call it, since DAoC. Back then it was pretty much a requirement in order to be truly competitive.
But bottom line, see my first sentence. I have never cared that much.
0
kotliMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 577
edited March 2013
Well IMO its fine if no 3rd party software or automation is used at all, IE your characters dont do a thing without you pressing the in game key for it. No macros either unless it one the game lets you create.
Given the above you wont really be playing 2 characters at the same time unless it a very simple fight in NWO, I mean any of you guys multibox in Shooters type games? All I can see that can be done is Semi-AFK farming where you play on one character and the other is standing somewhere in dungeon for XP and collecting end chest loot (ok you might switch but the hardness will increase big time with the need to dodge/block attacks).
I mean any of you guys multibox in Shooters type games? All I can see that can be done is Semi-AFK farming where you play on one character and the other is standing somewhere in dungeon for XP and collecting end chest loot (ok you might switch but the hardness will increase big time with the need to dodge/block attacks).
This is my point, while its easily possible to have another character, and I don't personally have an issue with it, why would you want to? You won't be able to play both characters to their fullest potential. I could see just clearing the solo content with one character so the other gets the quest xp, but why would you want to, you level so quickly in this game anyway /shrug. Just my 2 cents.
Comments
I agree with this. But the point is moot: multi-boxing doesn't work on Cryptic titles. The side benefit is you also know instantly if your account is compromised (happened to me: playing STO and instantly logged-out with the message that an attempt to log into STO on this account twice).
Multi-boxing works on CO and STO. I've done it (it's not my preferred method, I just used it to mule some stuff). It's essentially (at it's most basic form) playing two accounts from the same room. Hardware/macros make this a bit more complicated, but it certainly is possible.
I usually don't make alts, but I think I'm starting to see the benefit.
The beauty and glory of MMORPGs is playing with other people. If you're too lame for that, please just don't play.
There is no justification for being selfish, greedy, exploitive, or outright cheating.
Games with active combat are going to be harder to multibox anyways. I haven't played Neverwinter yet but in other similar systems there are no portraits to click on for healing/buffing and no tab target type of mechanisms. So there's nothing to cheese or script. In this type of system you have to be fully on the ball to play. If you're not aiming you're not hitting or healing or whatever.
But anyways i don't really care as this is a short-term game. I view it as a niche release to stay current in the market until whatever else they are working on approaches.
Judging by the response PWE once again underestimated & sadly many will be disappointed.
discussing & often complaining about the imaginary.
[SIGPIC]http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=1618000&dateline=1316204434[/SIGPIC]
As has been repeated throughout this thread Neverwinter is a more demanding MMO than virtually anything else on the market. You could do it if you had 4 hands but as far as I know most people have two. We simply don't have enough fingers to multi-box without obscene amounts of aid from automation which I feel would outright break botting rules.
I don't have an issue with multibox RP sessions, I don't have an issue with people using one box to type on and one box to fight on. I don't have a problem with one box using the Foundry and one box being in the actual game.
But I do absolutely have a problem with pack mules, static effects and automated PC companions.
Those are exploits to me, pure and simple, and well passes the line of botting. And I think that's what most of this debate comes down to.
Those who are against the allowance of multi-boxing are not trying to be sticklers. The argument for multi-boxing being a perfectly ok thing to do is that you aren't botting. In other MMO's you would be possible but Neverwinter is not like other MMO's and for people to effectively multi-box in combat would cross our definition of botting and exploiting.
So even if multi-boxing is allowed I think most of us stating opposition to its legality would be just as happy with a clear ruling that multi-boxing can only be used if the two accounts do not use ANY combat automation, only one account partakes in combat at a time, and if these two accounts are in a single party this party may not dungeon/delve/quest.
There are a few valid reasons people may want to multi-box but gaining some sort of advantage, including a free pack mule, is a direct exploit and should not be tolerated.
^^^ This!
I multibox in STO once in a while. I have never used any 3rd party exploits...or anything against the rules. I have a lot of alts, and sometimes it's nice to be able to have them interact.
*the mage chuckles*
Yeah.. I don't do interviews, my apprentice has a special fireball ready for solicitors at my door. It took Stratics, what 8 years?, to get me in a video and then it was a 10 year anniversary contribution.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
We're not.
We're saying multi-boxing particularly in a damanding game like Neverwinter is a gateway for automated features to be abused.
You won't be able to fight at the same times. It will be impossible. So unless you are standing around RPing and a few other minor tasks you will either be a detriment or you will be automating the heck out of the other computer.
Have you tried the game? It would sort of be like playing two FPS Games at once. Not happening without some major automation so the "I am doing all the actions" argument falls short.
That's excellent news!
Aheem.. can you believe you got two mentions on Episode #3 of the NOCS?? I'd swear there's a pattern forming here...
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I don't do this often but on occasion when I want to farm a chest for gear that I am having trouble getting. I don't see how this would work very well in this game though.
That said I don't see a problem doing this.
I do however see it as kind of dubious running 2 clients on the same pc as most of the times clients are not meant to be run this way or controlling 2 character from the same keyboard. I also don't really want people doing this in any lfm I put up.
Like others have said though I do not want this game turning into a bot fest like some other games.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Now in DDO I do double box at times.
I may try it here. No automated software.
My desktop and laptop are right next to each other.
I never would use any software to accomplish it as that would be cheating.
If like me you, and can run 2 computers that is not cheating.
Now in DDO what I normally do is have my main on my pc and a rogue on the laptop.
You do end up taking a lot longer in dungeons.
I have my main go up and fight then when it is clear bring up the rogue,
(well artificer which in DDO is a rogue with casting abilities and a pet construct "metal" dog).
It is a pain. Normally it takes me about 1/3 more time to run a dungeon.
So if you are really double boxing like I do it is not cheating, if you are using macro's on the same system, to me you are cheating.
That is my view anyway.
Not all who seem to be lost want to be found.
I have used two accounts (at least) in these games for years but did not know it was common or there was a term for it until i read this thread. I started it originally for more inventory room and the ability to trade with between my toons and so i could have 1 of every type of crafter in EQ2. I have two lifetime accounts for STO and Champions but im only using 1 in Neverwinter as want to keep things simple in this game and just have fun. I find managing so many characters in other game starts very quickly to feel like work. It is challenging to play two toons at once but not practical for major encounters. I dont anything about these bots and exploits im reading about here, for me it is just madly hitting buttons on two keyboards on two computers side by side on my desk. The follow command in space in STO makes things easier as you dont get stuck behind objects or fall into cracks, etc...
Still, the best way to play for fun is to be in a group of friends just using one account. There are times you can be logged into a second account and look at a bank or craft something for a guild mate or facilitate deliveries. Anyway, the games are for fun so each to their own i think and most of these cryptic games have multiple in game paths to enjoyment.
This is quite interesting to read. I dont know about this automation i have read about here but it seems to me that it is the exact opposite of your argument. People that are going to cheat will simply use multi-boxing as a tool for what they intend to do, not descend into a spiral of exploits and cheats after they have tried multi-boxing. Also im curious about this, do they need to use more than one computer when they are running the bots and cheat software? Can they just use one computer program to log into different accounts? This is all new and interesting to me.
Thanks.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
If I read this right, this is also where I stand. As long as you hit keys individually I have no problem with you doing anything with any number of characters, what I have a problem with and view as abusive is controlling multiple characters at the same time with the same keys. If you can have a group moving on the same location, and all attack with the same key press, it gets extreamly abusive.
There is a fine line between working in a group in a group setting, and having a group with pinpoint action from one source all at once. Its a Automatic "mind" of sorts.
I don't have a problem with Multi-Boxing, I'm just curious how you plan on accomplishing it.
Praesumo in Obscurum
Multi-boxing isn't cheating, it's not against the EULA or the TOS if the following is true:
Two separate accounts are being used
Two separate KEYBOARDS are being used
No third-party software or emulators/scripts are being run
The player is at both keyboards and in-control of both characters from both accounts at all times
I used to do this with EQ2, CoH, etc. It's nothing to put one character on following and auto-assist and just remember whcih buttons do what when you attack.. hit number 2 on one keyboard and number 2 on the other.
Simple.
However.. it takes a bit of skill to get out of a jam when you're trying to manipulate two mouses and keyboards in order to escape dying. Which I always found to be the downfall of multiboxing on ACTION games. That and the game doesn't use your local server to connect you.. so using /follow often showcases just how far behind (latency/ping wise) the game is vs. your actions. So getting around is often a challenge if it's even possible on the best connections.
Bottom line: I see no gain to this method of play beyond having a healer follow you around.
However: You'll need to make sure you're following the TOS and EULA to the letter or you'll end up banned on both accounts
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You just have to switch to windowed mode instead of fullscreen. Then you can have them up and visible at the same time. I did that in STO as a test. I had five windows up at one time. I got all my alts together and formed a fleet, so I could play with my own space station without bothering others. Although, once I got past about 4 windows, things got REAL SLOW.
There are some MMOs which will not allow multiple game sessions though. Fortunately, STO permits it. I haven't tried CO or Neverwinter yet though. I'm assuming they will permit it as well.
With basic knowledge of RF, a steady hand and a soldering iron I can have 5 rigs running off one keyboard & mouse. All you need is 2 accounts with your ISP, LAN party mobos and lag is pretty non-existant. If you have the money & the know how this is all relatively simple. Now, in my own defense, I haven't multi-boxed, or "hot boxed" as we used to call it, since DAoC. Back then it was pretty much a requirement in order to be truly competitive.
Now it's just a more expensive way to troll.
To me it's botting because it's all automated.
But bottom line, see my first sentence. I have never cared that much.
Given the above you wont really be playing 2 characters at the same time unless it a very simple fight in NWO, I mean any of you guys multibox in Shooters type games? All I can see that can be done is Semi-AFK farming where you play on one character and the other is standing somewhere in dungeon for XP and collecting end chest loot (ok you might switch but the hardness will increase big time with the need to dodge/block attacks).
This is my point, while its easily possible to have another character, and I don't personally have an issue with it, why would you want to? You won't be able to play both characters to their fullest potential. I could see just clearing the solo content with one character so the other gets the quest xp, but why would you want to, you level so quickly in this game anyway /shrug. Just my 2 cents.
Praesumo in Obscurum