One thing I will point out clearly is that it is essentially in beta format. There is room for improvements and everygame at first has to work out the kinks. DDO was a far cry from traditional D&D, and while i did play it and enjoyed it, It lacked that solid D&D feel, even after the eveningstar update. The vital and neccessary accument of stats and buffs made me sick. I am hoping NW is not dependent on that factor and impliments more importance on equipment and simple general buffs. I got so sick of the ship buff priority in DDO it made me sick. From the videos on yuotube NW looks pretty solid and there is plenty of time for cryptic to install additional things like extra classes, etc.
One thing I hope NW will offer is a BIG and VARIED assortment of classical D&D creatures, DDO's list was paultry and pathetic, encountering drow after drow after drow, bugbear after bugbear after bugbear and few mind flayers or elementals was saddening. Each update offered little variation in that department.
There really are three reasons I feel it falls short of DnD. And they all have to do with character individuality.
Statistic choices mean far less than gear choices. This happens in any game... at end game. Example: If I have a 18 CON fighter, and a 20 CON fighter, that makes the difference of about 40 HP. At level 10, I find a pair of boots with 230 HP bonus. That's equivalent to +11 CON. Now, with this, I don't care about the numbers. What I care about is that you making your character more strong, wise, charismatic, etc. has zero effect upon the game. We might as well start off with all "10's". This means no individuality with our choice.
Second, zero choice of powers at level-up, no choice of gear, everything is on rails. Part of the best fun of DnD was making a character that was odd, had an ability that few took, just to use it in ways that other people didn't think of. I jsut don't like being limited like that when in DnD, there are options, and devout cleric A at fifth level and devout cleric B at fifth level may play very differently depending upon power selection.
Third, every class can do what any other class can do skill wise. Pop a pill, detect traps. Sniff some dust, open religious items. Why even have skills in the game at all? Everyone is exactly the same, sans the trinity. And even then, most of those roles are hybridized to some degree.
As far as environment, general play, the sounds, the monsters you fight, all of that is DnD. So quite a bit of it is there already. Just seems to have fallen short on the character customization options (which, oddly enough, Cryptic usually does really well with).
Pretty much that. To add, they've taken away skill checks and saves. You have no reason not to level up just your primary stats. So why even have the rest?
Skill checks are the closest thing to a real dm you can get, because it opens you up to options based on your character choices. You wanna fight through that pack? Go ahead. Wait, you discovered a secret door to a tunnel that leads around them and their ambush. Well that changes things. Want to join that group of pirates instead of helping the pirate hunters? A successful charisma check could make that happen.
Right now non-primary stats mean nothing, and you're just a cart on a rail track. You level how they intended, you get the skills they intended, and you make the choices they intend. That's not dnd to me. In dnd I make my own choices, or at least have a few of them to make.
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karthaelMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited February 2013
One thing I haven't quite seen mentioned yet is the reasoning why they only released a few classes with such limited customization.
But FIRST to answer the OP's question...I feel like this is DnD and i'm super pumped. Just because I can't roll some super crazy battle axe wielding wizard who farts fireballs doesn't mean that it isn't DnD. I think the biggest argument people make is that it's set in stone and that there is no customizing your character. If you want to be a cleric than you have to throw holy lances and heal...no melee for you! While that is certainly disheartening to many people, I believe I can touch on why they have it limited to just that.
What is the biggest driver for anything in this world? MONEY!!!! Sweet, tasty, deliciously, green money. While I won't lie and say I wouldn't love to be a millionaire, i certainly can say it is the root of many of evil; one of those evils being lack of character customization! *DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUN* (Hope you are enjoying my sound effects =]) The problem Cryptic is having is the fact that they are creating a f2p game. F2p means no monthly subscribers (at least for this game...I know DDO is f2p but you CAN subscribe. Cryptic says it ain't even gonna be an option...) and no box sales either. This potentially loses them those millions I so desire...covet even. Cryptic would probably LOVE to add all the base classes for 4e and all the subclasses as perhaps some kind of specialization, BUT, and this is a HUGE but...I mean like BADONKADONK but....anyway, that requires more coding, which requires more code writers, which requires more salary. On top of that you need to test all that, which comes to the MOST IMPORTANT RESOURCE OF ALL TIME TIME TIME TIME Time...ti...me...Well, it actually is time. Time is money and time is never re attainable. The longer they take to get this game out, the more money they lose. I would bet my brand new 2013 Scion TC that they will, very soon, release more classes and probably even more customization.
Oh money....you are like marriage, I would never leave my wife and I love her so dearly, but man can she **** me over sometimes! If Cryptic had the kind of money income that say WoW (not because it's great but because Blizzard is FILTHY RICH) or even some of the lesser major companies like Bioware, (hated swtor btw so perhaps not their mmo quality but at least their income >.>) they could probably hire more people to give everyone exactly what they wanted.
In conclusion, Cryptic is doing an amazing job building a skyscraper with nothing but some scrap metal. I'm proud of every employee Cryptic has and I hope they can go home every night after work and sleep soundly with their loved ones....or by themselves if they happen to be a loser...like I was before my wife saved me. Anywho, I can't wait for the game to come out and truthfully believe that after playing many of DnD style games, including some 3e pnp, Neverwinter really makes me feel like I'm back in the forgotten realms. Sure I may not be able to make my fireball farting wizard...but hey, I'd rather have Neverwinter just the way it is than no Neverwinter at all. =]
Thanks for reading and I hope you all can stay as positive about this game as possible...the more support Cryptic gets, the more they can do with the game! =] Lieber, Karthael
And thats one more reason for cryptic to make characters more customized, if u want to play with a melee cleric in Neverwinter dev will have build a new class, if u want to play with a wizard with a great axe then cryptic have to waste money(dev time coding) to make a brand new class again, and again and again.
If they give us the otpions to costumize more our character they wouldnt have that work to do. Ofc for me is easy to say coz i dont have a clue how character mechanics works in terms of coding and game engine so its probably not an easy task for cryptic to change that.... what is done is done i guess.
@ysil6969 i know stats in this game is very diferent from pnp, they add especifics bonus to character properties such as critical chance(dex), dmg (str), ect, etc... So they will be a bit usefull but just for that, no skill check, no saves, no stats required for feats, etc... etc....
About skills, i saw in the last german and french videos that the items u get to be able to "open" skills was down to 65% chance now, but still.... that doesnt make me happier anyways
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
And thats one more reason for cryptic to make characters more customized, if u want to play with a melee cleric in Neverwinter dev will have build a new class, if u want to play with a wizard with a great axe then cryptic have to waste money(dev time coding) to make a brand new class again, and again and again.
If they give us the otpions to costumize more our character they wouldnt have that work to do.
That is some of the dumbest things I've read. Let me ask you a question - is it easier to imagine an animal that have all the features of both lion and an eagle or is it easier to imagine eagle and lion separately? Creating a new class with specific class mechanics and skills is way easier than modifying an existing class and adding new mechanics to it.
One thing D&D fans need to do better is to accept each incarnation of D&D as its own entity rather than forming expectations about the current incarnation based on previous incarnations.
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karthaelMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
That is some of the dumbest things I've read. Let me ask you a question - is it easier to imagine an animal that have all the features of both lion and an eagle or is it easier to imagine eagle and lion separately? Creating a new class with specific class mechanics and skills is way easier than modifying an existing class and adding new mechanics to it.
That is some of the dumbest things I've read. Let me ask you a question - is it easier to imagine an animal that have all the features of both lion and an eagle or is it easier to imagine eagle and lion separately? Creating a new class with specific class mechanics and skills is way easier than modifying an existing class and adding new mechanics to it.
Erm no. You'd have to change the class mechanics once. It'd be a big change. But only once. There's 18 base classes in the PHB's. If you think of 3 builds for every class (which is common) you have 54 classes to code all with their own individual spells feats animations etc. And this would still not hit every type of character someone wanted to make. Therefore you're losing clients and by losing clients you're losing money.
That is some of the dumbest things I've read. Let me ask you a question - is it easier to imagine an animal that have all the features of both lion and an eagle or is it easier to imagine eagle and lion separately? Creating a new class with specific class mechanics and skills is way easier than modifying an existing class and adding new mechanics to it.
Ofc for me is easy to say coz i dont have a clue how character mechanics works in terms of coding and game engine so its probably not an easy task for cryptic to change that.... what is done is done i guess.
Ofc cryptic wont change their entire engine because of it, read the entire threat i was just answering karthael about saving money for having 50 classes insted of 15 with multiple builds.
One thing D&D fans need to do better is to accept each incarnation of D&D as its own entity rather than forming expectations about the current incarnation based on previous incarnations.
Erm no. You'd have to change the class mechanics once. It'd be a big change. But only once. There's 18 base classes in the PHB's. If you think of 3 builds for every class (which is common) you have 54 classes to code all with their own individual spells feats animations etc. And this would still not hit every type of character someone wanted to make. Therefore you're losing clients and by losing clients you're losing money.
No, you have to change the class mechanics once at the beginning and then again and again and again each time you add a possible class build(powers, traits, etc.). And you still have to develop all these powers, traits and so on but you have the additional task of balancing and cramming everything into one place. Or you are going to have to add EVERYTHING AT ONCE which would: 1. Push the Release date back at least a year. 2. Slow significantly adding new classes because you have to implement everything and balance it out. What you get eventually? NOTHING! You will get the same possible playstyles and builds either way but the way it is now it will happen a lot faster and we can expect regular updates to keep the experience fresh. What you lose? A lot of money when it comes to development costs, missed benefits of a live game and player dissatisfaction because of push back and slow updates. So basically what you want is a death sentence to the game.
macabrivs, I know you said you could be wrong. The purpose of my post was to show why you are wrong.
U guys are missing the point. I play D&D pnp for some years and 4th edition for 4-5 years now... u know how many times i build a class with the "class builds" ?? Never, none, not once, nada.... I always chosse my own feat combos, powers, skills, etc...
Ive never built any class in any edition based on any WoTC class specialization and this is an option cryptic dont allows us to have.... if i want to be able to throw some magical lances and use my mace at the same time as a cleric i should be able to do that in a D&D GAME. The rules from pnp was badly passed to neverwinter MMO, feats are just tree skills like any other MMO, skills are a joke, they added AC because 1-2 years ago a lot of people were complaining about not having them, no rituals and no defences (3thed saves). U can say is not possible to pass pnp D&D rules to an MMO but thats not true, check DDO and see how they have done with the translation of the rules (if u are familiar with 3th). Althou im not saying DDO is a good game which leads me to my second part.
That said, i must to understand that was cryptic decision and they wont change all game mechanics because of it for sure. They probably have study a lot of alternatives but chosse to have class specialization as a MMO class. I already heard many devs that they will build more class after lunch and that can be a good marketing move to keep players arround and to incentivate more people to come play. Maybe they didnt implement the direct rules from pnp because the gameplay would be affected and the combat system would be totally diferent and we dont want that, dont we ?
For me the game could be better in terms of character costumization but hell the game looks amazing and beside the rules, from what i see, is away much better than any other base D&D MMO i have ever play, even better than much RPG's.
And why can't my cleric use a holy symbol based upon the choice of his or her deity? Why does my holy symbol look like every. Other. Cleric's. No. Not D&D.
Why can't my fighter use a battle ax instead of a sword?
Why can't my fighter wear chain mail instead of plate?
Why can't my cleric wear scale mail?
Why can't I follow an evil deity and cast harm spells instead of cure spells?
Why can't a rogue have a bow? For that matter, why can't a fighter?
Why are mages restricted to casting like sorcerers and not actual magic users?
Why can't rogues have the sneak attack or stealth abilities? (If they do, I've not seen it yet.)
Answer to all of the above is, because this isn't D&D, it's what Cryptic tells you to play. And how to play. If it -is- D&D, what is happening at the moment is the equivalent of the DM handing you a pre-generated character sheet and saying "you get no choices in the advancement of your character. I tell you when you level, what abilities you gain, etc., etc., etc.
So, no. Not D&D for those reasons.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
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greatsexmanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
U guys are missing the point. I play D&D pnp for some years and 4th edition for 4-5 years now... u know how many times i build a class with the "class builds" ?? Never, none, not once, nada.... I always chosse my own feat combos, powers, skills, etc...
Ive never built any class in any edition based on any WoTC class specialization and this is an option cryptic dont allows us to have.... if i want to be able to throw some magical lances and use my mace at the same time as a cleric i should be able to do that in a D&D GAME. The rules from pnp was badly passed to neverwinter MMO, feats are just tree skills like any other MMO, skills are a joke, they added AC because 1-2 years ago a lot of people were complaining about not having them, no rituals and no defences (3thed saves). U can say is not possible to pass pnp D&D rules to an MMO but thats not true, check DDO and see how they have done with the translation of the rules (if u are familiar with 3th). Althou im not saying DDO is a good game which leads me to my second part.
That said, i must to understand that was cryptic decision and they wont change all game mechanics because of it for sure. They probably have study a lot of alternatives but chosse to have class specialization as a MMO class. I already heard many devs that they will build more class after lunch and that can be a good marketing move to keep players arround and to incentivate more people to come play. Maybe they didnt implement the direct rules from pnp because the gameplay would be affected and the combat system would be totally diferent and we dont want that, dont we ?
For me the game could be better in terms of character costumization but hell the game looks amazing and beside the rules, from what i see, is away much better than any other base D&D MMO i have ever play, even better than much RPG's.
This game have the D&D old feeling.
This is an MMO, not a PnP.
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
Answer to all of the above is, because this isn't D&D, it's what Cryptic tells you to play. And how to play. If it -is- D&D, what is happening at the moment is the equivalent of the DM handing you a pre-generated character sheet and saying "you get no choices in the advancement of your character. I tell you when you level, what abilities you gain, etc., etc., etc.
So, no. Not D&D for those reasons.
No, it is not D&D because it literally is not D&D. You have choices, you have character advancement and customization, you have the great fantasy world, you have magical and beautiful vistas and a storyline, which although not personal, provides much lore about the world, the city of Neverwinter and tells a story about what is happening to this city.
Right first off - people DnD feel needs to be defined. For some its about gaming with friends - the adventures in the dungeons; having to think your way out of situations you've created. *some very stupidly and some not*
For others - its character customization; the freedom to do what you want with your character; if you want an axe wielding dwarf cleric you could. I'm not saying the adventure, dungeon crawling, gaming with friends, etc come second. That sometimes is how it comes across.
Now we having both sides trying to argue their case; problem is; both definitions are correct to a point as they are personal definitions.; but DnD feel - should lean towards the first definition as that is the spirit of DnD. *IMHO*
That still isn't to say the other side does not have a point. What I'm getting at is; lets listen and not just try to thump our personal views on what the game should or shouldn't be. Right now I have no opinion on the game as I've not gotten a chance to play; I've only seen the videos; only talk to people that have played. Everything I've seen and heard leans towards the first one.
The game play is a blast; gives you that DnD feeling of grouping and going through an adventure; but a lot of also said they do wish there was more customization.
Since this closed beta; we don't know what Cryptic has cooking in their labs - more customization is coming we know this. Will it be as free as PnP? Sadly no; because the simple fact it would a balancing and logicistal nightmare trying to do this. Will we get all the classes? I believe so; just not right away.
If you have played and you're not liking it; that's cool, then this isn't the game for you. If you haven't played and still saying this isn't DnD; you might want to wait until you've played......
I'm a big fan of Lotro and I'm still playing it at the moment.
Well, during last years Turbine, developer of Lord of the rings online, had the tendency of giving every class the same survivability, resistance and dps power. Now every class has the chance to level up solo at about the same speed. Healers have same dps as dps classes and dps classes have a far better survivability.
Well, even though intentions were good, results haven't been.
The main consequence has been the tendency to prefer solo to group play and next one has been classes losing their identity.
And here we are, a massive multiplayer online roleplay game full with soloers.
Being in need of a cleric or a rogue or a bard or a barbarian is the key to involve players in group play, roleplay, guilds and so on.
It's a bit early to predict what's happening with Neverwinter online but I really hope developers won't choose a better soloability over a class identity.
Is this really a thing?! I admit, I've basically been a fanboy up to this point, but the idea of just anybody being able to do something that, to my very limited knowledge (I don't know that much about D&D rule, let alone 4e, please correct me if I'm wrong), is a class specific skill is horrifying. Part of the fun of playing rogues, imo, is being able to provide the whole detect and disarm traps/pick locks service to the group.
This is why I will play a fighter, the rogue is designed as a damage dealer and not a thief in this game.
The Trickster Rogue is more like a Brawny Rogue
For me it is not a big problem if game feels like D&D or not. However it should be feel like Faerun.
Demon Stone was not like any other D&D game I've played (Neverwinter, Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale more importantly Temple of Elemental Evil), even it is hard to call it a RPG. However it was pure Faerun story and I liked it (still liking it).
I will hopefully see game first hand on next demo weekend. Videos of beta I've seen so far have cool things (like picking place of origin, your god, Mystra statue or drows speaking drow language) so I think I will love it.
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fluwerbasMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
Yeah I think the D&D vibes might throw some ppl off but i hope im wrong.
I'm seeing a whole buncha complaining about nothing personally. IMO this game is more D&D then any of the other titles out there. I tried DDO and because they didn't have the mechanism for disarming traps or finding secret walls without being some hybrid class (yeah I didn't even see the spells for that in DDO) there wasn't much anyone could do in most of the dungeons in DDO unless you were a hybrid class. All of the game was filled with people who had moved on from the prelevel 12 areas and you'd literally not find enough people to do anything constructive early on. I like that they added picks and tools to access the various chests and secret doors in this title. It makes it so that if you are a well equipped character (which I always tried to be when I played the dice game) you can actually go thru and do things on your own much more easily.
They have basically translated D&D 4E into an MMO well imo looking at it from the point of view of someone with alot of mmo experience and alot of D&D experience. There are simply too many issues in MMO's that players find themselves in that MMO developers have to think about that one will never find in a paper dice game of any kind. And unfortunately sometimes that means bending the rules a little bit.
D&D always needed fewer rules lawyers and I think that 4E does that. I'm hoping they add all of the classes in the 4E book to the game but I know from experience that won't be at launch, at least they managed to include enough of the base system to have people not run into the problems of not finding a group or not being able to survive without having to do nothing but group content constantly thru everything.
It feels as much a D&D as any mmo could, and this one has definitely come to closest. These people who are complaining about this don't really see that they are complaining about nothing. They want hybrid classes so they can do the things other classes can do, well they gave us the tools for that in game with usable items. I cannot wait to see what they've done with crafting and mini games.
Most of my D&D experience was 2nd and 3rd edition with lots of 3.5 played. Stopped playing for years and when 4th came out my initial response was "They made D&D feel like an MMO"
I'm seeing a whole buncha complaining about nothing personally. IMO this game is more D&D then any of the other titles out there. I tried DDO and because they didn't have the mechanism for disarming traps or finding secret walls without being some hybrid class (yeah I didn't even see the spells for that in DDO) there wasn't much anyone could do in most of the dungeons in DDO unless you were a hybrid class. All of the game was filled with people who had moved on from the prelevel 12 areas and you'd literally not find enough people to do anything constructive early on. I like that they added picks and tools to access the various chests and secret doors in this title. It makes it so that if you are a well equipped character (which I always tried to be when I played the dice game) you can actually go thru and do things on your own much more easily.
Traps just like in D&D Pen and Paper games can be handled with certain class in DDO. While there was only rogues to do that now game have Artificers as well.
Secret doors are easier. You can find Detect Secret Doors clickie, wand, scroll or cast it yourself if you are a caster. For locked object you have knock spell/scroll. For various runes hirelings works alright.
On top of that DDO is team game and build how D&D 3,5 edition supposed to play. You need balanced party to venture most of the dungeons (a melee, a healer, an arcane and a trapper). This is for elite difficulty, on normal you can easily by pass traps. On top of that some quests need more than one people to proceed like Burning Heart or Xorian Cipher.
If you are insistant about playing game solo, you can always hire a rogue hireling.
In the end if I was able to do everything on my own I wouldn't call that game a D&D game. To be honest DDO becomes stale if you solo too much, it is more fun with teams. For me this is what most new MMOs lacking, everything is easier and more fun while soloing.
Traps just like in D&D Pen and Paper games can be handled with certain class in DDO. While there was only rogues to do that now game have Artificers as well.
Secret doors are easier. You can find Detect Secret Doors clickie, wand, scroll or cast it yourself if you are a caster. For locked object you have knock spell/scroll. For various runes hirelings works alright.
On top of that DDO is team game and build how D&D 3,5 edition supposed to play. You need balanced party to venture most of the dungeons (a melee, a healer, an arcane and a trapper). This is for elite difficulty, on normal you can easily by pass traps. On top of that some quests need more than one people to proceed like Burning Heart or Xorian Cipher.
If you are insistant about playing game solo, you can always hire a rogue hireling.
In the end if I was able to do everything on my own I wouldn't call that game a D&D game. To be honest DDO becomes stale if you solo too much, it is more fun with teams. For me this is what most new MMOs lacking, everything is easier and more fun while soloing.
This is what I like in DDO. It is not only traps, they have doors which can only be opened with a certain amount of strength and runes which require a high amount of intelligence/wisdom/charisma.
There is no way to finish the complete dungeon alone on anything harder than normal difficulty. With complete dungeon I mean to find every hidden door, disable every trap, kill every monster, enter every room and not just finish the quest. In a group you should be able to do the same dungeon on elite.
hargareshMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 11Arc User
edited March 2013
Frome what I see...
I want to have my rogue be an archer... nope
I want to play a Paladin... maybe later
I dont want to see a thousand drow running around... **** players
I want this wizard I play to be different then the next one... sort of
I want my fighter to pick up a bow... nope
I want my cleric to be in full plate and have a mace... nope, maybe later (mind you, I would be a healer first)
So really for me, its the classes that there is a problem with. It may very well be fixed later on but who knows... Need less to say, I want to play the beta before buying a founders pack.
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joopus84Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited March 2013
if only some kind of tree system like in Rift wer implimented.. could help?
Eighteen plus years dming for PNP Dnd, and this is what I say: 4th Ed is great for MMO but not so much for pnp. I think adding the foundry kept this well within my expectation for the game, same goes for my friends. I would like to see more on the Character development side but this is not from my DND mind this is my thoughts based on my experience in other MMOs. I say Good for you Cryptic for even trying to work another DnD title. I hope that in 4 years we will still be playing this game. Good Hunting All!
Comments
One thing I hope NW will offer is a BIG and VARIED assortment of classical D&D creatures, DDO's list was paultry and pathetic, encountering drow after drow after drow, bugbear after bugbear after bugbear and few mind flayers or elementals was saddening. Each update offered little variation in that department.
Pretty much that. To add, they've taken away skill checks and saves. You have no reason not to level up just your primary stats. So why even have the rest?
Skill checks are the closest thing to a real dm you can get, because it opens you up to options based on your character choices. You wanna fight through that pack? Go ahead. Wait, you discovered a secret door to a tunnel that leads around them and their ambush. Well that changes things. Want to join that group of pirates instead of helping the pirate hunters? A successful charisma check could make that happen.
Right now non-primary stats mean nothing, and you're just a cart on a rail track. You level how they intended, you get the skills they intended, and you make the choices they intend. That's not dnd to me. In dnd I make my own choices, or at least have a few of them to make.
But FIRST to answer the OP's question...I feel like this is DnD and i'm super pumped. Just because I can't roll some super crazy battle axe wielding wizard who farts fireballs doesn't mean that it isn't DnD. I think the biggest argument people make is that it's set in stone and that there is no customizing your character. If you want to be a cleric than you have to throw holy lances and heal...no melee for you! While that is certainly disheartening to many people, I believe I can touch on why they have it limited to just that.
What is the biggest driver for anything in this world? MONEY!!!! Sweet, tasty, deliciously, green money. While I won't lie and say I wouldn't love to be a millionaire, i certainly can say it is the root of many of evil; one of those evils being lack of character customization! *DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUN* (Hope you are enjoying my sound effects =]) The problem Cryptic is having is the fact that they are creating a f2p game. F2p means no monthly subscribers (at least for this game...I know DDO is f2p but you CAN subscribe. Cryptic says it ain't even gonna be an option...) and no box sales either. This potentially loses them those millions I so desire...covet even. Cryptic would probably LOVE to add all the base classes for 4e and all the subclasses as perhaps some kind of specialization, BUT, and this is a HUGE but...I mean like BADONKADONK but....anyway, that requires more coding, which requires more code writers, which requires more salary. On top of that you need to test all that, which comes to the MOST IMPORTANT RESOURCE OF ALL TIME TIME TIME TIME Time...ti...me...Well, it actually is time. Time is money and time is never re attainable. The longer they take to get this game out, the more money they lose. I would bet my brand new 2013 Scion TC that they will, very soon, release more classes and probably even more customization.
Oh money....you are like marriage, I would never leave my wife and I love her so dearly, but man can she **** me over sometimes! If Cryptic had the kind of money income that say WoW (not because it's great but because Blizzard is FILTHY RICH) or even some of the lesser major companies like Bioware, (hated swtor btw so perhaps not their mmo quality but at least their income >.>) they could probably hire more people to give everyone exactly what they wanted.
In conclusion, Cryptic is doing an amazing job building a skyscraper with nothing but some scrap metal. I'm proud of every employee Cryptic has and I hope they can go home every night after work and sleep soundly with their loved ones....or by themselves if they happen to be a loser...like I was before my wife saved me. Anywho, I can't wait for the game to come out and truthfully believe that after playing many of DnD style games, including some 3e pnp, Neverwinter really makes me feel like I'm back in the forgotten realms. Sure I may not be able to make my fireball farting wizard...but hey, I'd rather have Neverwinter just the way it is than no Neverwinter at all. =]
Thanks for reading and I hope you all can stay as positive about this game as possible...the more support Cryptic gets, the more they can do with the game! =] Lieber, Karthael
If they give us the otpions to costumize more our character they wouldnt have that work to do. Ofc for me is easy to say coz i dont have a clue how character mechanics works in terms of coding and game engine so its probably not an easy task for cryptic to change that.... what is done is done i guess.
@ysil6969 i know stats in this game is very diferent from pnp, they add especifics bonus to character properties such as critical chance(dex), dmg (str), ect, etc... So they will be a bit usefull but just for that, no skill check, no saves, no stats required for feats, etc... etc....
About skills, i saw in the last german and french videos that the items u get to be able to "open" skills was down to 65% chance now, but still.... that doesnt make me happier anyways
That is some of the dumbest things I've read. Let me ask you a question - is it easier to imagine an animal that have all the features of both lion and an eagle or is it easier to imagine eagle and lion separately? Creating a new class with specific class mechanics and skills is way easier than modifying an existing class and adding new mechanics to it.
Very well said Elve...Glad to have the response.
Erm no. You'd have to change the class mechanics once. It'd be a big change. But only once. There's 18 base classes in the PHB's. If you think of 3 builds for every class (which is common) you have 54 classes to code all with their own individual spells feats animations etc. And this would still not hit every type of character someone wanted to make. Therefore you're losing clients and by losing clients you're losing money.
Let me answer u with another quote:
Ofc cryptic wont change their entire engine because of it, read the entire threat i was just answering karthael about saving money for having 50 classes insted of 15 with multiple builds.
I agree with this.
It also makes the Devoted Cleric look different than the other classes, which is another goal in MMOs.
You must be thinking of a battle cleric and I have no doubt you will see eventually (probably microtrans )
No, you have to change the class mechanics once at the beginning and then again and again and again each time you add a possible class build(powers, traits, etc.). And you still have to develop all these powers, traits and so on but you have the additional task of balancing and cramming everything into one place. Or you are going to have to add EVERYTHING AT ONCE which would: 1. Push the Release date back at least a year. 2. Slow significantly adding new classes because you have to implement everything and balance it out. What you get eventually? NOTHING! You will get the same possible playstyles and builds either way but the way it is now it will happen a lot faster and we can expect regular updates to keep the experience fresh. What you lose? A lot of money when it comes to development costs, missed benefits of a live game and player dissatisfaction because of push back and slow updates. So basically what you want is a death sentence to the game.
macabrivs, I know you said you could be wrong. The purpose of my post was to show why you are wrong.
Ive never built any class in any edition based on any WoTC class specialization and this is an option cryptic dont allows us to have.... if i want to be able to throw some magical lances and use my mace at the same time as a cleric i should be able to do that in a D&D GAME. The rules from pnp was badly passed to neverwinter MMO, feats are just tree skills like any other MMO, skills are a joke, they added AC because 1-2 years ago a lot of people were complaining about not having them, no rituals and no defences (3thed saves). U can say is not possible to pass pnp D&D rules to an MMO but thats not true, check DDO and see how they have done with the translation of the rules (if u are familiar with 3th). Althou im not saying DDO is a good game which leads me to my second part.
That said, i must to understand that was cryptic decision and they wont change all game mechanics because of it for sure. They probably have study a lot of alternatives but chosse to have class specialization as a MMO class. I already heard many devs that they will build more class after lunch and that can be a good marketing move to keep players arround and to incentivate more people to come play. Maybe they didnt implement the direct rules from pnp because the gameplay would be affected and the combat system would be totally diferent and we dont want that, dont we ?
For me the game could be better in terms of character costumization but hell the game looks amazing and beside the rules, from what i see, is away much better than any other base D&D MMO i have ever play, even better than much RPG's.
This game have the D&D old feeling.
And why can't my cleric use a holy symbol based upon the choice of his or her deity? Why does my holy symbol look like every. Other. Cleric's. No. Not D&D.
Why can't my fighter use a battle ax instead of a sword?
Why can't my fighter wear chain mail instead of plate?
Why can't my cleric wear scale mail?
Why can't I follow an evil deity and cast harm spells instead of cure spells?
Why can't a rogue have a bow? For that matter, why can't a fighter?
Why are mages restricted to casting like sorcerers and not actual magic users?
Why can't rogues have the sneak attack or stealth abilities? (If they do, I've not seen it yet.)
Answer to all of the above is, because this isn't D&D, it's what Cryptic tells you to play. And how to play. If it -is- D&D, what is happening at the moment is the equivalent of the DM handing you a pre-generated character sheet and saying "you get no choices in the advancement of your character. I tell you when you level, what abilities you gain, etc., etc., etc.
So, no. Not D&D for those reasons.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
No, it is not D&D because it literally is not D&D. You have choices, you have character advancement and customization, you have the great fantasy world, you have magical and beautiful vistas and a storyline, which although not personal, provides much lore about the world, the city of Neverwinter and tells a story about what is happening to this city.
For others - its character customization; the freedom to do what you want with your character; if you want an axe wielding dwarf cleric you could. I'm not saying the adventure, dungeon crawling, gaming with friends, etc come second. That sometimes is how it comes across.
Now we having both sides trying to argue their case; problem is; both definitions are correct to a point as they are personal definitions.; but DnD feel - should lean towards the first definition as that is the spirit of DnD. *IMHO*
That still isn't to say the other side does not have a point. What I'm getting at is; lets listen and not just try to thump our personal views on what the game should or shouldn't be. Right now I have no opinion on the game as I've not gotten a chance to play; I've only seen the videos; only talk to people that have played. Everything I've seen and heard leans towards the first one.
The game play is a blast; gives you that DnD feeling of grouping and going through an adventure; but a lot of also said they do wish there was more customization.
Since this closed beta; we don't know what Cryptic has cooking in their labs - more customization is coming we know this. Will it be as free as PnP? Sadly no; because the simple fact it would a balancing and logicistal nightmare trying to do this. Will we get all the classes? I believe so; just not right away.
If you have played and you're not liking it; that's cool, then this isn't the game for you. If you haven't played and still saying this isn't DnD; you might want to wait until you've played......
Well, during last years Turbine, developer of Lord of the rings online, had the tendency of giving every class the same survivability, resistance and dps power. Now every class has the chance to level up solo at about the same speed. Healers have same dps as dps classes and dps classes have a far better survivability.
Well, even though intentions were good, results haven't been.
The main consequence has been the tendency to prefer solo to group play and next one has been classes losing their identity.
And here we are, a massive multiplayer online roleplay game full with soloers.
Being in need of a cleric or a rogue or a bard or a barbarian is the key to involve players in group play, roleplay, guilds and so on.
It's a bit early to predict what's happening with Neverwinter online but I really hope developers won't choose a better soloability over a class identity.
This is why I will play a fighter, the rogue is designed as a damage dealer and not a thief in this game.
The Trickster Rogue is more like a Brawny Rogue
Demon Stone was not like any other D&D game I've played (Neverwinter, Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale more importantly Temple of Elemental Evil), even it is hard to call it a RPG. However it was pure Faerun story and I liked it (still liking it).
I will hopefully see game first hand on next demo weekend. Videos of beta I've seen so far have cool things (like picking place of origin, your god, Mystra statue or drows speaking drow language) so I think I will love it.
They have basically translated D&D 4E into an MMO well imo looking at it from the point of view of someone with alot of mmo experience and alot of D&D experience. There are simply too many issues in MMO's that players find themselves in that MMO developers have to think about that one will never find in a paper dice game of any kind. And unfortunately sometimes that means bending the rules a little bit.
D&D always needed fewer rules lawyers and I think that 4E does that. I'm hoping they add all of the classes in the 4E book to the game but I know from experience that won't be at launch, at least they managed to include enough of the base system to have people not run into the problems of not finding a group or not being able to survive without having to do nothing but group content constantly thru everything.
It feels as much a D&D as any mmo could, and this one has definitely come to closest. These people who are complaining about this don't really see that they are complaining about nothing. They want hybrid classes so they can do the things other classes can do, well they gave us the tools for that in game with usable items. I cannot wait to see what they've done with crafting and mini games.
Traps just like in D&D Pen and Paper games can be handled with certain class in DDO. While there was only rogues to do that now game have Artificers as well.
Secret doors are easier. You can find Detect Secret Doors clickie, wand, scroll or cast it yourself if you are a caster. For locked object you have knock spell/scroll. For various runes hirelings works alright.
On top of that DDO is team game and build how D&D 3,5 edition supposed to play. You need balanced party to venture most of the dungeons (a melee, a healer, an arcane and a trapper). This is for elite difficulty, on normal you can easily by pass traps. On top of that some quests need more than one people to proceed like Burning Heart or Xorian Cipher.
If you are insistant about playing game solo, you can always hire a rogue hireling.
In the end if I was able to do everything on my own I wouldn't call that game a D&D game. To be honest DDO becomes stale if you solo too much, it is more fun with teams. For me this is what most new MMOs lacking, everything is easier and more fun while soloing.
This is what I like in DDO. It is not only traps, they have doors which can only be opened with a certain amount of strength and runes which require a high amount of intelligence/wisdom/charisma.
There is no way to finish the complete dungeon alone on anything harder than normal difficulty. With complete dungeon I mean to find every hidden door, disable every trap, kill every monster, enter every room and not just finish the quest. In a group you should be able to do the same dungeon on elite.
Today every player tries to be an 'eierlegende Wollmilchsau'
I want to have my rogue be an archer... nope
I want to play a Paladin... maybe later
I dont want to see a thousand drow running around... **** players
I want this wizard I play to be different then the next one... sort of
I want my fighter to pick up a bow... nope
I want my cleric to be in full plate and have a mace... nope, maybe later (mind you, I would be a healer first)
So really for me, its the classes that there is a problem with. It may very well be fixed later on but who knows... Need less to say, I want to play the beta before buying a founders pack.