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silvergryph
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 740 Arc User
I have seen numerous posts saying this game isn't D&D enough because it doesn't adhere to some arbitrary subset of particular rules. I disagree. Maybe it's because I have such a broad experience with D&D. By that, I mean that I have seen so many different rules sets come and go that the rules have very little to do with the feel of D&D for me.
I have played since Elf was a class in the Basic and Expert rules set. I remember the revolutionary idea of choosing both a race, and a class in the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook. I could have a Dwarf who was also a Cleric?! A Halfling who cast spells?! Vastly different, but still D&D.
Then there came more classes, more spells, more rules. Magic-users became Mages. Skills appeared that were not class abilities and that any character could learn. Second Edition with kit books that let me create a Swashbuckler or a Priest of some minor deity nobody ever heard of with access to specific Domains. And it was still D&D. And even though the rules called him a Priest that character was still a D&D Cleric at heart.
Then came Third Edition. It revitalized the entire ailing pen and paper RPG industry. Not because of the rules themselves, but because they gave them away for free and gave birth to literally hundreds of companies trying to carve out a niche making products using the d20 SRD. 3E was a huge departure for D&D. Suddenly, everything was a formula. The game tried to micromanage and give rules for everything. Instead of a bunch of tacked together disparate systems there was the first real attempt to unify how things were resolved across the board. Your character's equipment increasingly became the focus of their development. Mages became Wizards. Very, very different and yet still completely D&D.
3E brought so many new players that when 4E came out many decried it as "not being D&D". It was such a different approach than 3E. The most common complaint is that 4E is too much like an MMO. But for some of us, it is more like the older editions in some ways. Less focus on the unifying framework of rules, more emphasis on the character instead of their gear, and more room for unique items and effects that were difficult to do in 3E as written. I didn't have to spend the time building every monster that was going to be around for 5 minutes of game time using the same rules for player characters. The monster's stat block was the way it was because that's the way it was. Again, 4E was different but still D&D.
D&D Next promises to bring more changes. But regardless of the rules, it will still be D&D.
The rules are secondary to the feel, the essence of the D&D experience. Here is an article from WotC talking about the essence of D&D: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4dreye/20121212 .
So, I've told you that I believe D&D is not about the rules. Now let me tell you what I think it is about: A particular mix of races, classes and items. I don't mean just the setting either. Its more like the universe that the various D&D settings fit inside of. Including the thousands upon thousands of homebrewed settings created at tables across the world.
You put enough of these elements together and you've got D&D. And this game has that in spades. My Cleric didn't feel like a WoW Priest or a "Support Archetype". He felt like a Half-Elven D&D Cleric. He had abilities that were common to D&D Clerics across many rulesets and settings. Abilities that while mechanically different between different generations of D&D still shared a unifying spirit and function. The same for my Dwarven Rogue and my Human Fighter. They too all had abilities and particular strengths and weaknesses that were common across the many different D&D rulesets and settings. Of course, I couldn't exactly replicate any of the scores of D&D characters I have played, but I couldn't completely re-create those characters when moving from one edition of D&D to another either. Or even from one campaign to another. You see, I never played a day in the Forgotten Realms. Every single game of pen and paper D&D that I ever played in, with every one of the many groups I played with for over 30 years used one of those homebrewed settings. And every single one of them was 100% pure D&D.
As a side note, there are a lot of things here that are definitely D&D that some players may miss. Many of these elements are lost on some because they think its just generic fantasy game stuff. Or its just the way that all games do it. I was there when many of these ideas were born and they were born (or at least raised) in D&D. It was the first product to take the leap from strategy simulation to structured story telling and invented the idea of a "Role Playing Game". A short list of things already confirmed in this game that some may not know actually came from D&D:
The term Player Characters instead of "units"
Non Player Characters (NPCs)
Choosing both a race and a class for a character
Clerics as battle-ready healers
Experience Points
Level Progression
New abilities unlocking as a character's level increases
Progressive Hit Points
Character customization (before D&D strategy game "units" were identical by type)
And so much more
So, I guess I have to concede that in some small way just about every MMO and RPG feels a little bit like D&D to me. I can see the family resemblance in the faces of all D&D's children and grandchildren. But this game is more than just a distant relative. This game is the real deal.
I have played since Elf was a class in the Basic and Expert rules set. I remember the revolutionary idea of choosing both a race, and a class in the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook. I could have a Dwarf who was also a Cleric?! A Halfling who cast spells?! Vastly different, but still D&D.
Then there came more classes, more spells, more rules. Magic-users became Mages. Skills appeared that were not class abilities and that any character could learn. Second Edition with kit books that let me create a Swashbuckler or a Priest of some minor deity nobody ever heard of with access to specific Domains. And it was still D&D. And even though the rules called him a Priest that character was still a D&D Cleric at heart.
Then came Third Edition. It revitalized the entire ailing pen and paper RPG industry. Not because of the rules themselves, but because they gave them away for free and gave birth to literally hundreds of companies trying to carve out a niche making products using the d20 SRD. 3E was a huge departure for D&D. Suddenly, everything was a formula. The game tried to micromanage and give rules for everything. Instead of a bunch of tacked together disparate systems there was the first real attempt to unify how things were resolved across the board. Your character's equipment increasingly became the focus of their development. Mages became Wizards. Very, very different and yet still completely D&D.
3E brought so many new players that when 4E came out many decried it as "not being D&D". It was such a different approach than 3E. The most common complaint is that 4E is too much like an MMO. But for some of us, it is more like the older editions in some ways. Less focus on the unifying framework of rules, more emphasis on the character instead of their gear, and more room for unique items and effects that were difficult to do in 3E as written. I didn't have to spend the time building every monster that was going to be around for 5 minutes of game time using the same rules for player characters. The monster's stat block was the way it was because that's the way it was. Again, 4E was different but still D&D.
D&D Next promises to bring more changes. But regardless of the rules, it will still be D&D.
The rules are secondary to the feel, the essence of the D&D experience. Here is an article from WotC talking about the essence of D&D: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4dreye/20121212 .
So, I've told you that I believe D&D is not about the rules. Now let me tell you what I think it is about: A particular mix of races, classes and items. I don't mean just the setting either. Its more like the universe that the various D&D settings fit inside of. Including the thousands upon thousands of homebrewed settings created at tables across the world.
You put enough of these elements together and you've got D&D. And this game has that in spades. My Cleric didn't feel like a WoW Priest or a "Support Archetype". He felt like a Half-Elven D&D Cleric. He had abilities that were common to D&D Clerics across many rulesets and settings. Abilities that while mechanically different between different generations of D&D still shared a unifying spirit and function. The same for my Dwarven Rogue and my Human Fighter. They too all had abilities and particular strengths and weaknesses that were common across the many different D&D rulesets and settings. Of course, I couldn't exactly replicate any of the scores of D&D characters I have played, but I couldn't completely re-create those characters when moving from one edition of D&D to another either. Or even from one campaign to another. You see, I never played a day in the Forgotten Realms. Every single game of pen and paper D&D that I ever played in, with every one of the many groups I played with for over 30 years used one of those homebrewed settings. And every single one of them was 100% pure D&D.
As a side note, there are a lot of things here that are definitely D&D that some players may miss. Many of these elements are lost on some because they think its just generic fantasy game stuff. Or its just the way that all games do it. I was there when many of these ideas were born and they were born (or at least raised) in D&D. It was the first product to take the leap from strategy simulation to structured story telling and invented the idea of a "Role Playing Game". A short list of things already confirmed in this game that some may not know actually came from D&D:
The term Player Characters instead of "units"
Non Player Characters (NPCs)
Choosing both a race and a class for a character
Clerics as battle-ready healers
Experience Points
Level Progression
New abilities unlocking as a character's level increases
Progressive Hit Points
Character customization (before D&D strategy game "units" were identical by type)
And so much more
So, I guess I have to concede that in some small way just about every MMO and RPG feels a little bit like D&D to me. I can see the family resemblance in the faces of all D&D's children and grandchildren. But this game is more than just a distant relative. This game is the real deal.
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Neverwinter Nights wasn't successful because a 1-20 flashed up on the screen when you swung your sword; it was successful because you could use it to create your own stories, and to experience the stories others created.
That's what makes this game D&D.
Well said.
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From everything I've seen over the past of this game and even more so in the recent streams of the beta weekend, this game as you said delivers that in spades. For some of us, people like me this is the very essence of Dungeons and dragons.
First of all, earlier editions of D&D weren't radically different from eachother. D&D Basic and AD&D followed eachother closely in release (though, D&D Basic came a bit earlier). They were actually meant to be separate but related games originally, with AD&D rule sets following a more "advanced" approach that included expanded options for more advanced players that wanted more flexibility when building their characters, with most of the core rules being very similar if not identical (both used six ability scores with a 3-18 score range, thac0, etc.). Racial "classes" in D&D Basic were basically "fighters" with limited level a few extra racial abilities, and "elves" were essentially fighter/mages.
The "revolutionary" idea of split race and classes was simply to drop races as a type of class and use the already existing classes available for humans for every race, which was something I asked my DM to let me do the very first time I played D&D Basic when I was introduced into the game. It wasn't such a big leap of logic to think of my character's race as just that and their class as a profession and therefore separate. It was actually pretty obvious and I hated the idea of treating my race as a class, which I'm sure others felt the same way, hence, how we got AD&D.
AD&D 2nd ed was basically AD&D, but with a few superficial rule changes. Almost everything was the same, but races got different racial limits in class advancement, classes were neatly grouped into categories (Warrior, Priest, Rogue and Wizard), but were mostly the same, except for a few superficial changes (such as giving rangers the same hit die as other warrior classes, etc.). They also standardized the proficiency system that was worked up in an old AD&D 1st ed supplement and made them a standard part of the game. But by and large the core rules were almost identical.
By AD&D 3rd edition D&D Basic was discontinued and the "Advanced" dropped from the name. While making the Open Licence which allowed others to copy the core rules was a huge (and perhaps primary) factor on its success the rules WERE a integral factor as well. Why would people want to use D&D core rules for a spy game (for example), after all, if what really defines the game is a couple of races and class names? Did d20sysem Spy games use the same classes and races as D&D? NO. They used the same Core Rules--THAT is what defines the system. And making the system separed from the setting is what made it successfull and allowed the d20 explosion that happened in the 3rd ed era.
There were also significant improvements made in 3rd edition which made it more accessible for a wider audience while still retaining much of the mechanical integrity of the core rules used in earlier editions of the game. Thac0 (to hit armor class 0) was simplified and turned into a mathematically identical but far more intuitive and simply to use Combat Modifier. Armor Class was changed to get better the higher it got and you simply had to roll higher than your target's AC in other to hit it rather than do an entire equation like you did on earlier editions of the game, etc.
I don't want to get into details on 4ed (because I have other things to do right now and shouldn't be spending time on a forum), but while being "like an MMO" was one of the things it was critized there was much more than that that made it different from earlier editions of the game. Classes were homogenizied and made very similar to eachother with similar and mostly superficially different powers. They changed the core races and classes (something you claim is what really defines the game), and made a bunch of other changes that made people angry but had nothing to do with the game being "like an MMO".
Finally, the changes being made to the D&D core system for this game are fundamentally different from those made between editions because they aren't about editions per se, or even about making it "better" or adapting it to a MMO world, but about adapting it to Cryptic's engine, which they use for everyone of their games and is part of their development strategy. They made this engine years ago to facilitate them producing new games faster by simply using their core engine and adding a few art assets on top with any additional programming that might be specific to the specific game they're trying to make. Things like "avoidance" and "dodge ratings" are Cryptic engine stats that are shared across their games. They're making this game different from D&D because their using their core engine and any attempt to be true to the D&D core rules will likely cost more than they're willing or able to invest.
/wall of text (aaaannnd back to work... >.>)
My only thing with this game not feeling like D&D is that it's action oriented. There doesn't seem to be much to it at this point aside from combat. I'm used to seeing the die rolls and watching the math as much as the fight as far as combat goes. This game is all about being in the moment of the fight. I think in the end that is my problem to get over, not the game's.
As for the lack of non-combat oriented play goes, well, that's what RP communities are for I suppose. A DM can make 1,000 NPCs for you to interact with, but it was always the players interacting that made things interesting for me.
I play DDO currently because it feels like a D&D game (i haven't played P&P version for 10+ years now) - from what i've seen on beta & read this game will be something i enjoy for the same reasons as the poster, a D&D setting where friends of different classes beat the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of the bad guys!!
Cheers
I am optimistic at this point that a lot more customization is coming. I believe them when they say that more classes are being built right now. I think we will first see the basic class list get fleshed out and then multiple versions of each class like they did with the Fighter. MMOs need to frequently release new things to keep players interested. Sometimes things are even spread out over time deliberately to accomplish this.
So, I understand what you mean and at this stage of beta I want more choices too. One thing that I do think is already very helpful in differentiating characters is the control scheme. By level 20 my Trickster Rogue already had a lot more powers to choose from than I could slot. So even though a different TR had the same pool of powers to choose from they could make different choices as to what to "equip". And the choices were not always easy. Powers unlocked at lower levels were not made completely obsolete by newer ones. Some of the lower powers had higher tier versions of them become available just when they started to look a little under powered. I can easily see myself making several different Rogues that each slot different powers and have different playstyles.
Champions Online Advanced Forum Search
Champions Online Advanced Forum Search
In NWO, I felt no attachment or even the slightest degree of individuality with my toon. The "feat" choices felt irrelevant and I felt no freedom to play my class how I wanted to.
To give an example of how disconnected I felt, I played a rogue to 30 - rogues have the ability to see and disarm traps. After disarming the first dozen or so I stopped doing it. Why? Because I did not see any real point. I could easily avoid or dodge roll through them, they delivered negligible damage if I did get hit, and I got NOTHING for disarming them. They took a pivotal class ability and made it trivial.
Another example, secret doors. Since everything you can interact with has sparklies coming out of it, there was no need for the rogue to "find secret doors". Anybody could "find" them and use them if they had the appropriate skill - or bought the item that gave them that skill. Again, a key class ability trivialized.
So basically, in this game, at the moment, Rogues are DPS, nothing more.
THAT is NOT D&D.
So I have to kill the beholder to play?
Nothing suspicious going on here, move along
interestingly enough, the more critical weekend feedback threads were also moved while the more positive ones are staying...
I would love nothing more than a NWN MMO, but that's not what this is, this is an action game built around a defined story in Forgotten Realms lore and using the D&D 4e core rules loosely to do so. That's it, in a nut shell.
If you are looking for a true D&D MMO, this is not that game, there is no such game, sadly. If you are looking for an action RPG set in Forgotten Realms and vaguely based off the D&D 4e rules, make yourself at home.
Now, taking it for what it is and not what you want it to be, it looks to be a great game in it's own right, the foundry will hopefully allow players to generate adventures more in line with a pnp adventure module but since they are pretty tight lipped about the limitations of the foundry's possibilities, we'll just have to wait and see. Potentially, the foundry could make or break this game.
So much this^^^
When I first started playing D&D back in the late 70's that exactly what it was about. It only became a slide rule game much later. NWO to me is the very heart of D&D the way Gygax wanted, "friends having adventures together" nothing more nothing less.
as far as i know there s no NDA regarding beta week ends so why move some threads and not other...i m waiting a explanation about the difference between feedback and review from Zebular on this one...
You and syberghost are somehow right...it s all about the adventure...however if you play an official DnD campaign with the warhammer rules for example...are you still playing DnD?
i could also extend this to WOW or any other fantasy rpg MMOs out there...game mechanics have to be consistent with the current or former rule sets of DnD to be called a DnD game, not only the adventures and the world setting.
Except that by that logic, every PnP or computer RPG with UGC in the history of RPGs is D&D, because they're all about friends having adventures and sharing stories. But D&D is about doing that using the D&D system (which may [sometimes heavily] be modified using homebrewed rules in PnP or adapted for video games, but must still retain most of the core elements to be recognized as D&D, otherwise is just "a fantasy RPG"), which--as even the OP indirectly points out with the mention of "homebrewed" settings (something that was mentioned in the manuals and I used to employ in my own games), doesn't even have to include "official" published D&D settings like FR, just stuff that's appropriate to the general type of fantasy atmosphere D&D aims to create.
*...sneaks back to work*
*kick DDO into pit*
Neverwinter Wiki
For me the games is D&D because for me personally D&D is more defined through the campaign settings, the general background and some iconic elements. I think those things are there.
But I actually don't understand why that is such a big deal. We do know for many months now that this game is an action combat MMO that isn't (and can't be) a direct copy of D&D rules. It seems that a lot of people were and still are expecting a very different game even though they should now better. You can either play it when it launches (it's free after all) or move on and play something else.
There's a lot of people here who grew up with D&D and as a result are quite passionate about it. I would have been surprised if there weren't any complaints regarding the game.
I happen to be one of those people who agree that D&D isn't just the setting. There are parts of the ruleset that makes D&D what it is even if other RPGs have copied certain features. When you start separating the ruleset too far, then I think it's a valid concern for those who feel the game no longer feels like D&D. It's one of the reasons why 4ed didn't take off as much as the previous editions; it deviated too much from the classical ruleset.
That being said, Cryptic made it clear from the onset that NWO was going to be 4ed. People should have expected the game to be more action oriented.
My only beef with the game is the lack of class customization. I am not happy with Feats looking like the typical talent tree found in other MMOs. This I didn't expect.
That said, if this game did NOT have the title of D&D with it, would people consider it a game worth playing? Like if this was a brand new IP, would people in general be able to appreciate the mechanics a little bit more and not be biased due to the D&D label on it?
Haha, honestly? Probably not. I'm here because of the label.
There's lots of stuff in D&D that's kept: AC, HP, 6 Attributes, certain spells, classes, saving throws. But yeah, I agree with you, even those things get modified but I believe they are just as important as the campaign settings.
On a scale of 1-10, what score would the beta testers give as a game in part of the D&D franchise?
On a scale of 1-10, what score would the beta testers give as a new MMO (mechanically, ignoring the D&D name)?
Some people are looking for a good game to play, and some are blinded because of high standards that naturally come with the D&D name (which is something I can actually understand and forgive). I know it's still only beta and we haven't even seen foundry content or high level content or even all the classes yet, so....
This is based on D&D 4th Edition and let me just say, if anyone disagreeing with that fact, also says it's not D&D, then you sir need a new hobby.
It is a game, so was all the different editions of D&D. So if you don't like it, then no one is trying hold you around playing a game you dislike.
Some like the atmosphere of the game, others do not.
Sorry dude, you have a very myopic and entitled perspective. This game isn't your and some other Grognards vision of D&D, that and five bucks will by you a small flavored coffee at Starbucks, it isn't going to to prevent the vast majority of us from enjoying the game; meanwhile you can setup shop here on the forums and Comicshop guy everyone who isn't a true D&D player.
:rolleyes: