I agree you can bow down and worship me. The internet is free for all and i have respected the rules of this forum. I can expres my opinion as much as I want.
I am not stopping you to play the game and I am not insulting you so please cut the harsh tone with me it will never work and I will never take orders from others.
The harsh truth hurts.
It's your truth not mine or most other peoples..deal with that please.
All I cared about was this was Forgotten Realms and most of the races and classes will eventually be here. There is no way to transpose the mechanics of a tabletop game into an MMO type video game.
In tabletop games you control how slow or how fast time elapses. So anything based on time can't directly be implemented in a video game.
I'm just happy its Forgotten Realms. Even if they made up their own classes and abilities I'd still be happy.
I'm so bored with all the passe lore out there now. LOTRO is the only other lore that is interesting enough to spend several years playing in a game based on it. Warcrafts, Rift, Warhammer, AoC, etc.. all that lore bored the living hell out of me.
I actually tried to follow Wow's lore from release thru sometime into the Burning Crusade days and it just bored me to death.
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kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
I dont think that people saying that this game is not D&D actually believe that the rules can be translated perfectly in a video game. Going to speak for myself, to me D&D is alot more then running around with a class template, killing Orcs and getting their loot.
All I cared about was this was Forgotten Realms and most of the races and classes will eventually be here. There is no way to transpose the mechanics of a tabletop game into an MMO type video game.
NWN 1 was pretty damn close and they didn't even tried very hard to build a ultra solid multiplayer. Not an MMO but a good multiplayer experience.
Btw you all say it's only my oppinion ?? Well I am curios how many players will play this game in this form at it's peak? 10.000, 100.000....that is nothing compared to a good mmo
Wow,gw2,warhammer online,lotr online,swotor,lionage thouse are good MMO with milions of players.
Cryptic and PW had an opportunity to make an epic game and get they're company huge profits. They're only mission was to build a decent D&D mmo. They have yet to deliver. This was they're shot to epicness.
Oh and btw on facebook this game has 36.499 likes ....world breaking record ??? I think not. (i love using numbers to make a point)
This game has yet to deliver so stop raising it to the pantheon it's still in the 9'th hell. Wait until it gets to metacritic.
"Ours is an age of criticism to which everything must be subjected."-I. Kant
Paper D&D just doesn't translate well to MMOs, it's not really designed to be an MMO.
I guess, one thing you could say is 4th Edition tried a little TOO hard to be designed like an MMO, (it's one reason some of us prefer Pathfinder!).
But there's great D&D flavor here from all the video and screens I've seen. Certainly Forgotten Realms is very much a power-gamer paradise, specifically designed for D&D, long ago. A world that has stood the test of time, for all the right reasons.
I am not sure the question can be answered objectively. For one thing, D&D means different things to different people. Experienced players know that jumping from one DM to the next, provides an entirely different flavor. My campaigns were always long on RP and often involved one single, epic battle, with lots of Dwarven Forge and tactics (and RP as you fight). Other campaigns were fast and light, with lots of humor, lots of others were purely power-games, lots of loot and dungeon crawls.
Even the rules you played with had variances. Unless you were a rules lawyer, most of us went with whatever house rules a campaign had, and a lot of DMs were fast and loose on some of the rules, in order to cater to their style and methodology.
This game, strikes me as another interpretation of D&D, its spirit is intact, the pedantic mechanical application of that spirit, is to me, a largely irrelevant issue, because every D&D game I ever played, adapted the mechanics to suit its environment. Neverwinter is no different.
With that in mind, clearly this game is very much Dungeons and Dragons.
SHADOW - A secret cabal for those who thirst for wealth and power. Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
As some who knows his OD&D Blue Box (3x3 alignments, hobbits) from the later Basic D&D series (3 alignments, halflings) that was published in parallel with AD&D seeing some of the artwork on this site made me nostalgic.
However this MMO is probably best described as "D&D-punk" rather than D&D.
D&D4 is the game that would homogenise any difference between Bilbo Baggins and Gandalf, between Conan and Thoth-Amon, between Mort and Corporal Nobby Nobbs.
It might smell like D&D and but it is like a Findus Beef Lasange, mostly made of horsemeat.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
As some who knows his OD&D Blue Box (3x3 alignments, hobbits) from the later Basic D&D series (3 alignments, halflings) that was published in parallel with AD&D seeing some of the artwork on this site made me nostalgic.
However this MMO is probably best described as "D&D-punk" rather than D&D.
D&D4 is the game that would homogenise any difference between Bilbo Baggins and Gandalf, between Conan and Thoth-Amon, between Mort and Corporal Nobby Nobbs.
It might smell like D&D and but it is like a Findus Beef Lasange, mostly made of horsemeat.
There will never be a mmo 100% like D&D and the devs themselves have already said they are trying to make the game "as close as possible to D&D", not that they were making an exact copy of D&D. So the poll firstly is irrelevant.
Which brings up another point when it comes to what is and what isn't "D&D." D&D is different to everyone and there is no one definition. Being anal-retentive about which edition is supposedly better than another or what modifiers and stats used in any edition of the game is useless.
Enjoy the game for what it is and what tradition the RPG lends its history to. Enjoy being with your friends and having fun in the game and quit squabbling over petty issues that don't amount to squat.
The devs are doing a great job so far with the game and it takes more energy to be negative and pessimistic about something that I wager more than 95% of the posters in this thread have no clue what its like being under the gun when creating an mmo. So chill
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kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Paper D&D just doesn't translate well to MMOs, it's not really designed to be an MMO.
I guess, one thing you could say is 4th Edition tried a little TOO hard to be designed like an MMO, (it's one reason some of us prefer Pathfinder!).
But there's great D&D flavor here from all the video and screens I've seen. Certainly Forgotten Realms is very much a power-gamer paradise, specifically designed for D&D, long ago. A world that has stood the test of time, for all the right reasons.
I am not sure the question can be answered objectively. For one thing, D&D means different things to different people. Experienced players know that jumping from one DM to the next, provides an entirely different flavor. My campaigns were always long on RP and often involved one single, epic battle, with lots of Dwarven Forge and tactics (and RP as you fight). Other campaigns were fast and light, with lots of humor, lots of others were purely power-games, lots of loot and dungeon crawls.
Even the rules you played with had variances. Unless you were a rules lawyer, most of us went with whatever house rules a campaign had, and a lot of DMs were fast and loose on some of the rules, in order to cater to their style and methodology.
This game, strikes me as another interpretation of D&D, its spirit is intact, the pedantic mechanical application of that spirit, is to me, a largely irrelevant issue, because every D&D game I ever played, adapted the mechanics to suit its environment. Neverwinter is no different.
With that in mind, clearly this game is very much Dungeons and Dragons.
I keep reading people that say things like "It captures the spirit of D&D"
What is it exactly about this game that you feel "captures the spirit of D&D"? I said it times and times again we are running around killing mobs with premade characters, grab their loot and thats it! D&D is a storytelling game, yet this has no story.
What is it exactly about this game that you feel "captures the spirit of D&D"?
'Dungeons and Dragons is a fantastic, exciting and imaginative game of role playing for adults 12 years and up. Each player creates a character or characters who may be dwarves, elves, halfings, or human fighting men, magic users, pious cleric or wily thieves. The characters are then plunged into a series of dungeons, tunnels, secret rooms and caverns run by another player, often called a Dungeon Master. The dungeons are filled with monsters, fabulous treasure and frightful perils." -- The opening paragraph of the famous "blue book" in the D&D box set. Written by Gary Gygax in the late 1970's.
But beyond that, look at what every major publication of D&D rules has encouraged people to do:
"Interpret these rules as you like, to invent your own variation, style, theme and nuance of D&D, that caters to you and your players"
Rules, styles and methodology have ALWAYS been "a-la carte" in D&D. Some games are supremely focused on "phat lewt", others intently invested in story and RP.
If you think Neverwinter will not facilitate RP and story-telling, I disagree. Indeed, I'll say, Neverwinter has the potential to be the most RP-friendly MMO we've seen in some time.
If you argue RP isn't possible in any MMO, I scoff. RP thrives in just about every major MMO you can list, solid, superb, uniquely original RP, deep with story, conflict and most of all, great recreational fun.
This is just another variation of the great game that Arneson and Gygax gifted us with back in the days of Chainmail, some 40 years ago.
I should add that the addition of the Foundry, the ability to craft your own adventures, stories and NPCs, uniquely qualifies this as the closest to the spirit of D&D, we've ever seen a fantasy MMO deliver.
There is no "right" way to play D&D. D&D has always been an interpretive recreation. One gaming table is distinctly different than the rest. D&D has no rules, it only has guidelines and each iteration of D&D and each gaming table has rightly interpreted the game differently. That's the game's great strength so to suggest there's some narrow avenue, on which a game must adhere to, in order to be dubbed Dungeons and Dragons is a lie.
Also, a pedantic point, but D&D is a business owned by Wizards of the Coast, ultimately if that entity tells us, "this is D&D" then begrudgingly it is. So from a legal perspective as well, it clearly is Dungeons and Dragons.
SHADOW - A secret cabal for those who thirst for wealth and power. Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
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castagyreMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited February 2013
The story will be in the Foundry I would hope.
Where it belongs imo.
Remembering Hanlon's Razor can save one a lot on aspirines.
'Dungeons and Dragons is a fantastic, exciting and imaginative game of role playing for adults 12 years and up. Each player creates a character or characters who may be dwarves, elves, halfings, or human fighting men, magic users, pious cleric or wily thieves. The characters are then plunged into a series of dungeons, tunnels, secret rooms and caverns run by another player, often called a Dungeon Master. The dungeons are filled with monsters, fabulous treasure and frightful perils." -- The opening paragraph of the famous "blue book" in the D&D box set. Written by Gary Gygax in the late 1970's.
But beyond that, look at what every major publication of D&D rules has encouraged people to do:
"Interpret these rules as you like, to invent your own variation, style, theme and nuance of D&D, that caters to you and your players"
Rules, styles and methodology have ALWAYS been "a-la carte" in D&D. Some games are supremely focused on "phat lewt", others intently invested in story and RP.
If you think Neverwinter will not facilitate RP and story-telling, I disagree. Indeed, I'll say, Neverwinter has the potential to be the most RP-friendly MMO we've seen in some time.
If you argue RP isn't possible in any MMO, I scoff. RP thrives in just about every major MMO you can list, solid, superb, uniquely original RP, deep with story, conflict and most of all, great recreational fun.
This is just another variation of the great game that Arneson and Gygax gifted us with back in the days of Chainmail, some 40 years ago.
I should add that the addition of the Foundry, the ability to craft your own adventures, stories and NPCs, uniquely qualifies this as the closest to the spirit of D&D, we've ever seen a fantasy MMO deliver.
There is no "right" way to play D&D. D&D has always been an interpretive recreation. One gaming table is distinctly different than the rest. D&D has no rules, it only has guidelines and each iteration of D&D and each gaming table has rightly interpreted the game differently. That's the game's great strength so to suggest there's some narrow avenue, on which a game must adhere to, in order to be dubbed Dungeons and Dragons is a lie.
Also, a pedantic point, but D&D is a business owned by Wizards of the Coast, ultimately if that entity tells us, "this is D&D" then begrudgingly it is. So from a legal perspective as well, it clearly is Dungeons and Dragons.
What is it about this game that you have played, that you feel "captures the spirit of D&D"?
NWN 1 was pretty damn close and they didn't even tried very hard to build a ultra solid multiplayer. Not an MMO but a good multiplayer experience.
Btw you all say it's only my oppinion ?? Well I am curios how many players will play this game in this form at it's peak? 10.000, 100.000....that is nothing compared to a good mmo
Wow,gw2,warhammer online,lotr online,swotor,lionage thouse are good MMO with milions of players.
Cryptic and PW had an opportunity to make an epic game and get they're company huge profits. They're only mission was to build a decent D&D mmo. They have yet to deliver. This was they're shot to epicness.
Oh and btw on facebook this game has 36.499 likes ....world breaking record ??? I think not. (i love using numbers to make a point)
This game has yet to deliver so stop raising it to the pantheon it's still in the 9'th hell. Wait until it gets to metacritic.
"Ours is an age of criticism to which everything must be subjected."-I. Kant
All that matters to me is *I* like the game and my friends like the game. As long as I have solo content or 5 other people to play with I'm good.
I will never play a game because it claims they have millions of subs, or a game has X number of likes on a social media site (seriously almost spewed my drink at that), or one of the 50 million gaming review sites said it was or wasn't good. I don't even remember the last time I read any gaming sites or bought a gaming mag... probably been close to 10 years.
That just pretty much sums up the mentality of the newer generations on the Internet... and probably why the average kid won't ever be happy with any game.
What is it about this game that you have played, that you feel "captures the spirit of D&D"?
Did you play foundry quests?
The very question you pose was answered in the post.
The Foundry lets you craft your own dungeons, stories and NPCs. The game is an awesome device for interactive RP. The game lets you create/craft unique fantasy-related characters, that are iconic to D&D and Gygax's own introduction to the game, written 4 decades ago.
It passes every test of "captures the spirit of D&D" you can think of. It allows for interactive ever-involving story telling, collaborative RP, within a generic fantasy setting that D&D has embraced and endorsed for decades.
The real question is, what about this game, is NOT D&D.
The only rebuttal I've seen here, involves a rather narrow, pedantic interpretation of what precisely D&D is, rather than an interpretive view of the game's creative spirit and true purpose. D&D isn't just a collection of rules in books. In fact, almost every rule book in every edition, made it clear that D&D rules are guidelines, that the spirit of the game was interactive story-telling and role play.
That spirit is very much intact here.
MMOs already have rich, beautifully creative role play communities, with the Foundry the RP capability is even greater than many of its predecessors.
This is Dungeons & Dragons, heck, I'll even go so far to say, this is the future of Dungeons and Dragons.
SHADOW - A secret cabal for those who thirst for wealth and power. Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
Well I checked the game out like I planned to. Then I read this thread. It is now clear that the game is not a digital format of 4E so I am going to probably keep playing POE until Elder Scrolls Online comes out.
'Dungeons and Dragons is a fantastic, exciting and imaginative game of role playing for adults 12 years and up. Each player creates a character or characters who may be dwarves, elves, halfings, or human fighting men, magic users, pious cleric or wily thieves. The characters are then plunged into a series of dungeons, tunnels, secret rooms and caverns run by another player, often called a Dungeon Master. The dungeons are filled with monsters, fabulous treasure and frightful perils." -- The opening paragraph of the famous "blue book" in the D&D box set. Written by Gary Gygax in the late 1970's.
But beyond that, look at what every major publication of D&D rules has encouraged people to do:
"Interpret these rules as you like, to invent your own variation, style, theme and nuance of D&D, that caters to you and your players"
Rules, styles and methodology have ALWAYS been "a-la carte" in D&D. Some games are supremely focused on "phat lewt", others intently invested in story and RP.
If you think Neverwinter will not facilitate RP and story-telling, I disagree. Indeed, I'll say, Neverwinter has the potential to be the most RP-friendly MMO we've seen in some time.
If you argue RP isn't possible in any MMO, I scoff. RP thrives in just about every major MMO you can list, solid, superb, uniquely original RP, deep with story, conflict and most of all, great recreational fun.
This is just another variation of the great game that Arneson and Gygax gifted us with back in the days of Chainmail, some 40 years ago.
I should add that the addition of the Foundry, the ability to craft your own adventures, stories and NPCs, uniquely qualifies this as the closest to the spirit of D&D, we've ever seen a fantasy MMO deliver.
There is no "right" way to play D&D. D&D has always been an interpretive recreation. One gaming table is distinctly different than the rest. D&D has no rules, it only has guidelines and each iteration of D&D and each gaming table has rightly interpreted the game differently. That's the game's great strength so to suggest there's some narrow avenue, on which a game must adhere to, in order to be dubbed Dungeons and Dragons is a lie.
Also, a pedantic point, but D&D is a business owned by Wizards of the Coast, ultimately if that entity tells us, "this is D&D" then begrudgingly it is. So from a legal perspective as well, it clearly is Dungeons and Dragons.
It's just that the neverwinter title sold us an idea that this would be like the old neverwinter games except based on a better edition. And instead this game is a unique edition.
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desdain01Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited February 2013
It's that I can play a fighter who cannot ever use a shield. As for the Foundry, it's that I'll never be able to implement something like A4 In the Dungeons of the Slave Lords.
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kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Not really we have someone that avoids answering a simple question asking what elements currently in the game makes him feel like this is D&D. He probably as never touched the game or any foundry content but he is hellbent on telling us he knows better how the game plays. People seem under the delusion that the foundry is like a magic wand that will create anything they want regardless of the limitations imposed by the foundry itself.
Whenever you are in next beta, open your character sheet. Put mouse over all the so called stats of STR,DEX,WIS,INT etc. and read their description.
After that mouse over to other stats power, defense etc which are described in previous mouse-overs and read them.
Next check how skill system works and how pet system works.
Then check all of these in all the editions. After that open Lotro and see how its stats work. Then think - if you were to change the names of the stats - and items, can you pass this game as LOTRO? No you don't have to answer.
After that read the OPENER'S POST.
I have seen numerous posts saying this game isn't D&D enough because it doesn't adhere to some arbitrary subset of particular rules. I disagree. Maybe it's because I have such a broad experience with D&D. By that, I mean that I have seen so many different rules sets come and go that the rules have very little to do with the feel of D&D for me.
I have played since Elf was a class in the Basic and Expert rules set. I remember the revolutionary idea of choosing both a race, and a class in the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook. I could have a Dwarf who was also a Cleric?! A Halfling who cast spells?! Vastly different, but still D&D.
Then there came more classes, more spells, more rules. Magic-users became Mages. Skills appeared that were not class abilities and that any character could learn. Second Edition with kit books that let me create a Swashbuckler or a Priest of some minor deity nobody ever heard of with access to specific Domains. And it was still D&D. And even though the rules called him a Priest that character was still a D&D Cleric at heart.
Then came Third Edition. It revitalized the entire ailing pen and paper RPG industry. Not because of the rules themselves, but because they gave them away for free and gave birth to literally hundreds of companies trying to carve out a niche making products using the d20 SRD. 3E was a huge departure for D&D. Suddenly, everything was a formula. The game tried to micromanage and give rules for everything. Instead of a bunch of tacked together disparate systems there was the first real attempt to unify how things were resolved across the board. Your character's equipment increasingly became the focus of their development. Mages became Wizards. Very, very different and yet still completely D&D.
3E brought so many new players that when 4E came out many decried it as "not being D&D". It was such a different approach than 3E. The most common complaint is that 4E is too much like an MMO. But for some of us, it is more like the older editions in some ways. Less focus on the unifying framework of rules, more emphasis on the character instead of their gear, and more room for unique items and effects that were difficult to do in 3E as written. I didn't have to spend the time building every monster that was going to be around for 5 minutes of game time using the same rules for player characters. The monster's stat block was the way it was because that's the way it was. Again, 4E was different but still D&D.
D&D Next promises to bring more changes. But regardless of the rules, it will still be D&D.
So, I've told you that I believe D&D is not about the rules. Now let me tell you what I think it is about: A particular mix of races, classes and items. I don't mean just the setting either. Its more like the universe that the various D&D settings fit inside of. Including the thousands upon thousands of homebrewed settings created at tables across the world.
You put enough of these elements together and you've got D&D. And this game has that in spades. My Cleric didn't feel like a WoW Priest or a "Support Archetype". He felt like a Half-Elven D&D Cleric. He had abilities that were common to D&D Clerics across many rulesets and settings. Abilities that while mechanically different between different generations of D&D still shared a unifying spirit and function. The same for my Dwarven Rogue and my Human Fighter. They too all had abilities and particular strengths and weaknesses that were common across the many different D&D rulesets and settings. Of course, I couldn't exactly replicate any of the scores of D&D characters I have played, but I couldn't completely re-create those characters when moving from one edition of D&D to another either. Or even from one campaign to another. You see, I never played a day in the Forgotten Realms. Every single game of pen and paper D&D that I ever played in, with every one of the many groups I played with for over 30 years used one of those homebrewed settings. And every single one of them was 100% pure D&D.
As a side note, there are a lot of things here that are definitely D&D that some players may miss. Many of these elements are lost on some because they think its just generic fantasy game stuff. Or its just the way that all games do it. I was there when many of these ideas were born and they were born (or at least raised) in D&D. It was the first product to take the leap from strategy simulation to structured story telling and invented the idea of a "Role Playing Game". A short list of things already confirmed in this game that some may not know actually came from D&D:
The term Player Characters instead of "units"
Non Player Characters (NPCs)
Choosing both a race and a class for a character
Clerics as battle-ready healers
Experience Points
Level Progression
New abilities unlocking as a character's level increases
Progressive Hit Points
Character customization (before D&D strategy game "units" were identical by type)
And so much more
So, I guess I have to concede that in some small way just about every MMO and RPG feels a little bit like D&D to me. I can see the family resemblance in the faces of all D&D's children and grandchildren. But this game is more than just a distant relative. This game is the real deal.
Then read above poll. Only then can you realise how opener's post is utter nonsense.
This is a MMO which tells D&D story - like a novel. It is not D&D game and neither is it based on any editions. The meaning of everything is fundamentally different.
Yes, it is enjoyable just like LOTRO and is good MMO - but that and the poll above has nothing to do with it.
The only rebuttal I've seen here, involves a rather narrow, pedantic interpretation of what precisely D&D is, rather than an interpretive view of the game's creative spirit and true purpose. *snip*
And every counter-argument I have seen involves a simplistic view that claims that things that apply to every single PnP RPG and are not exclusive to D&D are what defines this game as D&D. There is a difference between saying that the rules are guidelines and that altering them* is acceptable according to the manuals, and claiming that something almost completely different from the core system of the game is still D&D because it allows you to craft your own dungeons, stories and NPCs, engage in interactive storytelling, uses fantasy classes and races and a host of other things which apply to almost every other RPG--the only exception being the stuff specifically pertaining to fantasy, which only applies to fantasy games (which D&D is not the only one). But 100% everything else is pretty much RPGs in general.
Just about the only thing I've seen mentioned that could arguably be called "D&D" is the setting, and even then the setting is a separate thing from the game itself, which has never been required to play the game or included as part of the core manuals. And can work entirely on its own and doesn't necessarily require the D&D game to play it, since you could easily adapt it to play with other systems (particularly generic ones).
*something I assure I did in almost everyone of my games--some of which were unrecognizable from D&D and as such I didn't consider them to be D&D even though they started out that way, others which--while heavily modified--still retained much of the core system (class/level structure, hit dice, saving throws, etc.), but expanded on it to include extensive options for character customization, skill progression, new classes and races, and special combat rules not found in the core rules, but using most of the core mechanics for task resolution normally used in D&D.
I had my own class building tables back in AD&D 2nd ed (different from the one found in the 2nd DM's Manual and more extensive), which included every class ability or feature (hit dice, combat progression, etc.) in the game, plus several of my own (including monster abilities) and could produce similar XP tables to existing classes through a point system. So I'm well aware that a game doesn't have to retain 100% the rules in the books to be D&D or some semblance of it, and that some campaigns were heavily into house rules and homebrewed systems, because my campaign was the most heavily into it in my old gaming circle.
EDIT: Also, I used to allow almost any class/race combination without max levels (class/race combinations and max levels for non-humans were eliminated in 3rd ed) back in 2nd ed, which was more along the lines of what the manuals actually meant when they said "if you don't like a rule, change it". My homebrewed systems were more taking it to the next level and bordering in non-D&D sometimes.
Whenever you are in next beta, open your character sheet. Put mouse over all the so called stats of STR,DEX,WIS,INT etc. and read their description
You mean the precise attributes the game's had for several decades have slight variation in mechanical application, and therefore, means the entire game can't be claimed to be the very thing that it is legally attributed to be? That's just pedantic and demonstrates an incredibly narrow view of what D&D is, what it has been, and what it will be in its future.
When charisma was changed to become a driving force behind a spell-caster class, did that stop it from being D&D? When the mechanics of turning undead evolved several times in D&D's history, did this stop it from being D&D? Is "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks" not D&D because of its style? Or is Raveloft not D&D?
What code of application and rule must D&D adhere to, in order for it to be deemed actually D&D in your narrow view?
It's obvious that this game is the ever-evolving future of Dungeons and Dragons.
Legally this is true and in the spirit of D&D's great history it is certainly true. Only anal-retentive fans, tied to specific mechanics claim it otherwise, which is ludicrous because variations in rules, mechanics, styles and variances are all part of D&D's rich tapestry.
When 5th Edition (or D&D Next or whatever Wizards plans to call it), releases in the next 18 months, we can debate its strengths and merits, we can compare and contrast it to what this variant has utilized, but it will be Dungeons and Dragons as well.
As for the "LOTRO" argument above...LOTRO isn't claiming to be Dungeons and Dragons, so that entire post is moot and unnecessary. This game claims to be D&D, at least a variant of it. I happen to think it is a very strong, very legitimate variant.
It's D&D, part of the pantheon of D&D material we've seen released for over 4 decades. It's as viably a part of D&D as that terrible 2nd Edition Monster Manual you own, that crippled the nomenclature, in a vain attempt to assuage Tipper Gore.
SHADOW - A secret cabal for those who thirst for wealth and power. Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
This is a MMO which tells D&D story - like a novel. It is not D&D game and neither is it based on any editions. The meaning of everything is fundamentally different.
Yes, it is enjoyable just like LOTRO and is good MMO - but that and the poll above has nothing to do with it.
and you should follow the same procedure before commenting too. It seems obvious that you are unable to differentiate between pedantic and fundamental differences.
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kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
The way i see it we have a fun fantasy FPS with the ability to create new fantasy FPS maps. Nothing more and nothing less. Its about as close to D&D as Medal of honor is.
Doesnt mean its not a good game. I'm calling it for what it is.
It's obvious that this game is the ever-evolving future of Dungeons and Dragons.
No it isn't, because those precious mechanical differences you see under the hood are the Cryptic Engine, and not some evolution of D&D. This has nothing to do with D&D evolving and everything to do with the devs superficially adapting D&D terminology on top of their engine the same way they did with Champions Online (which is loosely based on the Champions PnP). This isn't just my personal opinion but a verifiable fact.
Cryptic made a MMO game engine years ago while they were still owned by Atari with the purpose of using that engine as a base to facilitate production of MMOs faster. The objective was to have a core system in place they could use to make MMOs quicker (at least in theory; I'm still not sure how much faster they're making them given how long it took them to build this one, but still might be possible it would have taken them much longer to do one based on proper D&D rules from scratch) by simply adding art assets on top, create the maps and playable content, and do any bit of programming that was specific to the game they were creating and such.
Hop onto Champions Online and check their attributes some times. Just like NWO it uses the same attributes as the PnP as a superficial label, but the mechanics are the same as this one (+crit rating, dodge/avoidance, defense, etc.). This game isn't different from the D&D core rules because of evolution. Its different because it doesn't use them.
and you should follow the same procedure before commenting too. It seems obvious that you are unable to differentiate between pedantic and fundamental differences.
On the contrary, the game is branded as Dungeons and Dragons, endorsed by the stewards of the brand and will augment and accent that steward's continued development of the brand, as Wizards has ever intention of releasing product based on aspects of this game.
That is a fundamental truth, not a pedantic argument about how "dexterity" is applied in the game.
This clearly IS Dungeons and Dragons, a variant to be sure, but branded Dungeons and Dragons by the very people who decry what is and what is not D&D.
The quote you post accentuates that it does not precisely follow 4th Edition mechanics, because it couldn't, but mechanics don't define D&D, it never has. If it did, then every variation after the original was "NOT" D&D, or conversely, every edition before the current paper edition, isn't D&D either.
These are NOT pedantic arguments, (yours clearly are, when you focus on trivial minutia, that's the very definition of the word). In fact, they aren't even arguments, they are just a recognition this game is branded with the D&D brand, clearly is indicative of the game's original spirit as laid out by Arneson and Gygax.
This is Dungeons and Dragons, it says so right on the logo. It's right there in front of you.
There's nothing in this game that precludes it from being included in the pantheon of products (some good, some bad) that are called D&D. It's part of D&D's rich tapestry. That's as obvious as the nose on your face.
You just quibble about some of this game's mechanical application. You then feel that entitles you to proclaim that it "isn't D&D", or worse proclaim it isn't "real D&D", which is just subjective and elitist and in denial of the very brand that's plastered at the top of this very forum.
Here let me quote a designer to make it clear:
"Cryptic is not trying to do a "literal translation of the [Dungeons & Dragons] rule set to the video game medium," said content lead Randy Mosiondz, pre-empting questions about which Dungeons & Dragons edition Neverwinter will be based on. Instead, Mosiondz explained, the studio is attempting to distill the essence of the pen-and-paper role-playing experience and imbue the game with it. Chris Young, a design manager in the Dungeons & Dragons research and development department at Wizards of the Coast, added that the point of Neverwinter is to give people nuggets of Dungeons & Dragons lore that will inform and inspire their own unique experience."
That's it in a nutshell, this is a variation of D&D translated to the medium of a video-game MMO, with the spirit of the game intact, the general intent of the game intact and fully endorsed and recognized by the stewards of the brand as a viable extension and variant of Dungeons and Dragons.
That's precisely what this game is, another variant of D&D, which again, complements the great tapestry of D&D products and continues the long tradition of interpreting this great creative game in unique, ever-evolving ways.
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And here's more proof, from the same article I quoted above, this comes from one of Wizard's chief designers of the D&D brand:
Cryptic's art team, including art lead Joe Jing, came up with an initial design for the monastery in Helm's Hold. They sent the concept art to Wizards of the Coast, which offered some suggestions on how to tweak the design to better fit Dungeons & Dragons lore. Cryptic's third pass of Helm's Hold included a towering monastery built like a fortress, with the aesthetic of a Gothic cathedral. And the studio's work has even affected Dungeons & Dragons itself: According to Jing, Cryptic's concept art for Helm's Hold influenced Wizards of the Coast's Neverwinter Campaign Setting guide.
Not only is this clearly a D&D variant, but it is a variant that has a symbiotic relationship with the core pen-and-paper game.
So it's not only clearly part of D&D, it is also affecting the core game's future and current development.
It's D&D, another variation of the game to be sure, but clearly as viable a Dungeons and Dragons product as that "Unearthed Arcana" you can't seem to sell on eBay.
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Ah, the good old "they said it was so, therefore it must be so" argument. "So the truth is obviously self evident in their claims and requires no adequate explanation". From appeal to authority to circular reasoning--so many fallacies I have no clue how to reply to that other than point out how fallacious those two posts are.
*flips a table* I give up
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kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Of course you give up its like trying to make a point with a Taliban.
If its branded by God then its God's will. He could argue with you all night that if Wizards of the coast decided to make Gauntlet a part of their franchise it would be an evolution in D&D.
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It's your truth not mine or most other peoples..deal with that please.
In tabletop games you control how slow or how fast time elapses. So anything based on time can't directly be implemented in a video game.
I'm just happy its Forgotten Realms. Even if they made up their own classes and abilities I'd still be happy.
I'm so bored with all the passe lore out there now. LOTRO is the only other lore that is interesting enough to spend several years playing in a game based on it. Warcrafts, Rift, Warhammer, AoC, etc.. all that lore bored the living hell out of me.
I actually tried to follow Wow's lore from release thru sometime into the Burning Crusade days and it just bored me to death.
NWN 1 was pretty damn close and they didn't even tried very hard to build a ultra solid multiplayer. Not an MMO but a good multiplayer experience.
Btw you all say it's only my oppinion ?? Well I am curios how many players will play this game in this form at it's peak? 10.000, 100.000....that is nothing compared to a good mmo
Wow,gw2,warhammer online,lotr online,swotor,lionage thouse are good MMO with milions of players.
Cryptic and PW had an opportunity to make an epic game and get they're company huge profits. They're only mission was to build a decent D&D mmo. They have yet to deliver. This was they're shot to epicness.
Oh and btw on facebook this game has 36.499 likes ....world breaking record ??? I think not. (i love using numbers to make a point)
This game has yet to deliver so stop raising it to the pantheon it's still in the 9'th hell. Wait until it gets to metacritic.
"Ours is an age of criticism to which everything must be subjected."-I. Kant
I guess, one thing you could say is 4th Edition tried a little TOO hard to be designed like an MMO, (it's one reason some of us prefer Pathfinder!).
But there's great D&D flavor here from all the video and screens I've seen. Certainly Forgotten Realms is very much a power-gamer paradise, specifically designed for D&D, long ago. A world that has stood the test of time, for all the right reasons.
I am not sure the question can be answered objectively. For one thing, D&D means different things to different people. Experienced players know that jumping from one DM to the next, provides an entirely different flavor. My campaigns were always long on RP and often involved one single, epic battle, with lots of Dwarven Forge and tactics (and RP as you fight). Other campaigns were fast and light, with lots of humor, lots of others were purely power-games, lots of loot and dungeon crawls.
Even the rules you played with had variances. Unless you were a rules lawyer, most of us went with whatever house rules a campaign had, and a lot of DMs were fast and loose on some of the rules, in order to cater to their style and methodology.
This game, strikes me as another interpretation of D&D, its spirit is intact, the pedantic mechanical application of that spirit, is to me, a largely irrelevant issue, because every D&D game I ever played, adapted the mechanics to suit its environment. Neverwinter is no different.
With that in mind, clearly this game is very much Dungeons and Dragons.
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However this MMO is probably best described as "D&D-punk" rather than D&D.
D&D4 is the game that would homogenise any difference between Bilbo Baggins and Gandalf, between Conan and Thoth-Amon, between Mort and Corporal Nobby Nobbs.
It might smell like D&D and but it is like a Findus Beef Lasange, mostly made of horsemeat.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
LOL a crude analogy, but apropos.
Which brings up another point when it comes to what is and what isn't "D&D." D&D is different to everyone and there is no one definition. Being anal-retentive about which edition is supposedly better than another or what modifiers and stats used in any edition of the game is useless.
Enjoy the game for what it is and what tradition the RPG lends its history to. Enjoy being with your friends and having fun in the game and quit squabbling over petty issues that don't amount to squat.
The devs are doing a great job so far with the game and it takes more energy to be negative and pessimistic about something that I wager more than 95% of the posters in this thread have no clue what its like being under the gun when creating an mmo. So chill
I keep reading people that say things like "It captures the spirit of D&D"
What is it exactly about this game that you feel "captures the spirit of D&D"? I said it times and times again we are running around killing mobs with premade characters, grab their loot and thats it! D&D is a storytelling game, yet this has no story.
'Dungeons and Dragons is a fantastic, exciting and imaginative game of role playing for adults 12 years and up. Each player creates a character or characters who may be dwarves, elves, halfings, or human fighting men, magic users, pious cleric or wily thieves. The characters are then plunged into a series of dungeons, tunnels, secret rooms and caverns run by another player, often called a Dungeon Master. The dungeons are filled with monsters, fabulous treasure and frightful perils." -- The opening paragraph of the famous "blue book" in the D&D box set. Written by Gary Gygax in the late 1970's.
But beyond that, look at what every major publication of D&D rules has encouraged people to do:
"Interpret these rules as you like, to invent your own variation, style, theme and nuance of D&D, that caters to you and your players"
Rules, styles and methodology have ALWAYS been "a-la carte" in D&D. Some games are supremely focused on "phat lewt", others intently invested in story and RP.
If you think Neverwinter will not facilitate RP and story-telling, I disagree. Indeed, I'll say, Neverwinter has the potential to be the most RP-friendly MMO we've seen in some time.
If you argue RP isn't possible in any MMO, I scoff. RP thrives in just about every major MMO you can list, solid, superb, uniquely original RP, deep with story, conflict and most of all, great recreational fun.
This is just another variation of the great game that Arneson and Gygax gifted us with back in the days of Chainmail, some 40 years ago.
I should add that the addition of the Foundry, the ability to craft your own adventures, stories and NPCs, uniquely qualifies this as the closest to the spirit of D&D, we've ever seen a fantasy MMO deliver.
There is no "right" way to play D&D. D&D has always been an interpretive recreation. One gaming table is distinctly different than the rest. D&D has no rules, it only has guidelines and each iteration of D&D and each gaming table has rightly interpreted the game differently. That's the game's great strength so to suggest there's some narrow avenue, on which a game must adhere to, in order to be dubbed Dungeons and Dragons is a lie.
Also, a pedantic point, but D&D is a business owned by Wizards of the Coast, ultimately if that entity tells us, "this is D&D" then begrudgingly it is. So from a legal perspective as well, it clearly is Dungeons and Dragons.
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Where it belongs imo.
Sorry, had to be done. Carry on with the conversation.
What is it about this game that you have played, that you feel "captures the spirit of D&D"?
Did you play foundry quests?
All that matters to me is *I* like the game and my friends like the game. As long as I have solo content or 5 other people to play with I'm good.
I will never play a game because it claims they have millions of subs, or a game has X number of likes on a social media site (seriously almost spewed my drink at that), or one of the 50 million gaming review sites said it was or wasn't good. I don't even remember the last time I read any gaming sites or bought a gaming mag... probably been close to 10 years.
That just pretty much sums up the mentality of the newer generations on the Internet... and probably why the average kid won't ever be happy with any game.
The very question you pose was answered in the post.
The Foundry lets you craft your own dungeons, stories and NPCs. The game is an awesome device for interactive RP. The game lets you create/craft unique fantasy-related characters, that are iconic to D&D and Gygax's own introduction to the game, written 4 decades ago.
It passes every test of "captures the spirit of D&D" you can think of. It allows for interactive ever-involving story telling, collaborative RP, within a generic fantasy setting that D&D has embraced and endorsed for decades.
The real question is, what about this game, is NOT D&D.
The only rebuttal I've seen here, involves a rather narrow, pedantic interpretation of what precisely D&D is, rather than an interpretive view of the game's creative spirit and true purpose. D&D isn't just a collection of rules in books. In fact, almost every rule book in every edition, made it clear that D&D rules are guidelines, that the spirit of the game was interactive story-telling and role play.
That spirit is very much intact here.
MMOs already have rich, beautifully creative role play communities, with the Foundry the RP capability is even greater than many of its predecessors.
This is Dungeons & Dragons, heck, I'll even go so far to say, this is the future of Dungeons and Dragons.
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Ding Ding Ding we have a winna!
After that mouse over to other stats power, defense etc which are described in previous mouse-overs and read them.
Next check how skill system works and how pet system works.
Then check all of these in all the editions. After that open Lotro and see how its stats work. Then think - if you were to change the names of the stats - and items, can you pass this game as LOTRO? No you don't have to answer.
After that read the OPENER'S POST.
Then read above poll. Only then can you realise how opener's post is utter nonsense.
This is a MMO which tells D&D story - like a novel. It is not D&D game and neither is it based on any editions. The meaning of everything is fundamentally different.
Yes, it is enjoyable just like LOTRO and is good MMO - but that and the poll above has nothing to do with it.
And every counter-argument I have seen involves a simplistic view that claims that things that apply to every single PnP RPG and are not exclusive to D&D are what defines this game as D&D. There is a difference between saying that the rules are guidelines and that altering them* is acceptable according to the manuals, and claiming that something almost completely different from the core system of the game is still D&D because it allows you to craft your own dungeons, stories and NPCs, engage in interactive storytelling, uses fantasy classes and races and a host of other things which apply to almost every other RPG--the only exception being the stuff specifically pertaining to fantasy, which only applies to fantasy games (which D&D is not the only one). But 100% everything else is pretty much RPGs in general.
Just about the only thing I've seen mentioned that could arguably be called "D&D" is the setting, and even then the setting is a separate thing from the game itself, which has never been required to play the game or included as part of the core manuals. And can work entirely on its own and doesn't necessarily require the D&D game to play it, since you could easily adapt it to play with other systems (particularly generic ones).
*something I assure I did in almost everyone of my games--some of which were unrecognizable from D&D and as such I didn't consider them to be D&D even though they started out that way, others which--while heavily modified--still retained much of the core system (class/level structure, hit dice, saving throws, etc.), but expanded on it to include extensive options for character customization, skill progression, new classes and races, and special combat rules not found in the core rules, but using most of the core mechanics for task resolution normally used in D&D.
I had my own class building tables back in AD&D 2nd ed (different from the one found in the 2nd DM's Manual and more extensive), which included every class ability or feature (hit dice, combat progression, etc.) in the game, plus several of my own (including monster abilities) and could produce similar XP tables to existing classes through a point system. So I'm well aware that a game doesn't have to retain 100% the rules in the books to be D&D or some semblance of it, and that some campaigns were heavily into house rules and homebrewed systems, because my campaign was the most heavily into it in my old gaming circle.
EDIT: Also, I used to allow almost any class/race combination without max levels (class/race combinations and max levels for non-humans were eliminated in 3rd ed) back in 2nd ed, which was more along the lines of what the manuals actually meant when they said "if you don't like a rule, change it". My homebrewed systems were more taking it to the next level and bordering in non-D&D sometimes.
You mean the precise attributes the game's had for several decades have slight variation in mechanical application, and therefore, means the entire game can't be claimed to be the very thing that it is legally attributed to be? That's just pedantic and demonstrates an incredibly narrow view of what D&D is, what it has been, and what it will be in its future.
When charisma was changed to become a driving force behind a spell-caster class, did that stop it from being D&D? When the mechanics of turning undead evolved several times in D&D's history, did this stop it from being D&D? Is "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks" not D&D because of its style? Or is Raveloft not D&D?
What code of application and rule must D&D adhere to, in order for it to be deemed actually D&D in your narrow view?
It's obvious that this game is the ever-evolving future of Dungeons and Dragons.
Legally this is true and in the spirit of D&D's great history it is certainly true. Only anal-retentive fans, tied to specific mechanics claim it otherwise, which is ludicrous because variations in rules, mechanics, styles and variances are all part of D&D's rich tapestry.
When 5th Edition (or D&D Next or whatever Wizards plans to call it), releases in the next 18 months, we can debate its strengths and merits, we can compare and contrast it to what this variant has utilized, but it will be Dungeons and Dragons as well.
As for the "LOTRO" argument above...LOTRO isn't claiming to be Dungeons and Dragons, so that entire post is moot and unnecessary. This game claims to be D&D, at least a variant of it. I happen to think it is a very strong, very legitimate variant.
It's D&D, part of the pantheon of D&D material we've seen released for over 4 decades. It's as viably a part of D&D as that terrible 2nd Edition Monster Manual you own, that crippled the nomenclature, in a vain attempt to assuage Tipper Gore.
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Doesnt mean its not a good game. I'm calling it for what it is.
No it isn't, because those precious mechanical differences you see under the hood are the Cryptic Engine, and not some evolution of D&D. This has nothing to do with D&D evolving and everything to do with the devs superficially adapting D&D terminology on top of their engine the same way they did with Champions Online (which is loosely based on the Champions PnP). This isn't just my personal opinion but a verifiable fact.
Cryptic made a MMO game engine years ago while they were still owned by Atari with the purpose of using that engine as a base to facilitate production of MMOs faster. The objective was to have a core system in place they could use to make MMOs quicker (at least in theory; I'm still not sure how much faster they're making them given how long it took them to build this one, but still might be possible it would have taken them much longer to do one based on proper D&D rules from scratch) by simply adding art assets on top, create the maps and playable content, and do any bit of programming that was specific to the game they were creating and such.
Hop onto Champions Online and check their attributes some times. Just like NWO it uses the same attributes as the PnP as a superficial label, but the mechanics are the same as this one (+crit rating, dodge/avoidance, defense, etc.). This game isn't different from the D&D core rules because of evolution. Its different because it doesn't use them.
On the contrary, the game is branded as Dungeons and Dragons, endorsed by the stewards of the brand and will augment and accent that steward's continued development of the brand, as Wizards has ever intention of releasing product based on aspects of this game.
That is a fundamental truth, not a pedantic argument about how "dexterity" is applied in the game.
This clearly IS Dungeons and Dragons, a variant to be sure, but branded Dungeons and Dragons by the very people who decry what is and what is not D&D.
The quote you post accentuates that it does not precisely follow 4th Edition mechanics, because it couldn't, but mechanics don't define D&D, it never has. If it did, then every variation after the original was "NOT" D&D, or conversely, every edition before the current paper edition, isn't D&D either.
These are NOT pedantic arguments, (yours clearly are, when you focus on trivial minutia, that's the very definition of the word). In fact, they aren't even arguments, they are just a recognition this game is branded with the D&D brand, clearly is indicative of the game's original spirit as laid out by Arneson and Gygax.
This is Dungeons and Dragons, it says so right on the logo. It's right there in front of you.
There's nothing in this game that precludes it from being included in the pantheon of products (some good, some bad) that are called D&D. It's part of D&D's rich tapestry. That's as obvious as the nose on your face.
You just quibble about some of this game's mechanical application. You then feel that entitles you to proclaim that it "isn't D&D", or worse proclaim it isn't "real D&D", which is just subjective and elitist and in denial of the very brand that's plastered at the top of this very forum.
Here let me quote a designer to make it clear:
"Cryptic is not trying to do a "literal translation of the [Dungeons & Dragons] rule set to the video game medium," said content lead Randy Mosiondz, pre-empting questions about which Dungeons & Dragons edition Neverwinter will be based on. Instead, Mosiondz explained, the studio is attempting to distill the essence of the pen-and-paper role-playing experience and imbue the game with it. Chris Young, a design manager in the Dungeons & Dragons research and development department at Wizards of the Coast, added that the point of Neverwinter is to give people nuggets of Dungeons & Dragons lore that will inform and inspire their own unique experience."
That's it in a nutshell, this is a variation of D&D translated to the medium of a video-game MMO, with the spirit of the game intact, the general intent of the game intact and fully endorsed and recognized by the stewards of the brand as a viable extension and variant of Dungeons and Dragons.
That's precisely what this game is, another variant of D&D, which again, complements the great tapestry of D&D products and continues the long tradition of interpreting this great creative game in unique, ever-evolving ways.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
Cryptic's art team, including art lead Joe Jing, came up with an initial design for the monastery in Helm's Hold. They sent the concept art to Wizards of the Coast, which offered some suggestions on how to tweak the design to better fit Dungeons & Dragons lore. Cryptic's third pass of Helm's Hold included a towering monastery built like a fortress, with the aesthetic of a Gothic cathedral. And the studio's work has even affected Dungeons & Dragons itself: According to Jing, Cryptic's concept art for Helm's Hold influenced Wizards of the Coast's Neverwinter Campaign Setting guide.
Not only is this clearly a D&D variant, but it is a variant that has a symbiotic relationship with the core pen-and-paper game.
So it's not only clearly part of D&D, it is also affecting the core game's future and current development.
It's D&D, another variation of the game to be sure, but clearly as viable a Dungeons and Dragons product as that "Unearthed Arcana" you can't seem to sell on eBay.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
Ah, the good old "they said it was so, therefore it must be so" argument. "So the truth is obviously self evident in their claims and requires no adequate explanation". From appeal to authority to circular reasoning--so many fallacies I have no clue how to reply to that other than point out how fallacious those two posts are.
*flips a table* I give up
If its branded by God then its God's will. He could argue with you all night that if Wizards of the coast decided to make Gauntlet a part of their franchise it would be an evolution in D&D.
Its pointless...